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Re: [ANE-2] Re: Book review of the Talpiot tomb- a must read

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  • Bradley Skene
    The best evidence we have is the record in Josephus recording James as the leader of a sect within the second temple (not the later Christian interpolation
    Message 1 of 34 , Jul 3, 2007
      The best evidence we have is the record in Josephus recording James as the
      leader of a sect within the second temple (not the later Christian
      interpolation that talks about Jesus). Other than that the relatively early
      date of the the Gospels of Thomas and Matthew would suggest that some of the
      audience would have known from personal experience if no such person as
      Jesus existed. The fact that such objections are not addressed would suggest
      that they were not made.

      But then, there is not much more persuasive evidence for the existence of
      Socrates. Given the tiny fraction of ancient literature, documentary and
      physical evidence that remains, this is not that surprising, or any
      compelling reason to question the existence of Jesus. It would be nice to
      have disinterested epigraphic evidence (to the extent epigraphic evidence
      really is disinterested), such as a list of criminals condemned by Pilate at
      the passover festival in 29 AD (or whatever the appropriate year would be),
      but I wouldn't wait holding my breath for it to surface. I've often wondered
      why no search of the Roman chancery was made at the time of Constantine or
      after (before 410) for relevant documents.


      Braldey A. Skene

      On 7/2/07, Dierk van den Berg <haGalil@...> wrote:
      > The thread sounds to me as if some of you have already crossed Rudolf
      > Bultmann's red line in the Jesus research. Fine, beside questionable,
      > for engrafted archaeological backdoor records (e.g. "the mask of
      > Agamemnon"), records geared towards the media, what do you actually
      > have at hand to provide objective evidence for the historicity of
      > Jesus the Christ, the ultimate condition sine qua non of any serious
      > debate on archaeological records allegedly related to a specific
      > individual.
      > Any substantial would be appreciated.
      > best,
      > Dierk van den Berg
      > --------
      > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>, "Bradley Skene"
      > <anebo10@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > The Gospel of Matthew takes pains to refute the charge that Jesus'
      > body was
      > > stolen from the cross and secretly buried (27:64; 28:13ff).
      > >
      > > This is evidence that such a charge was known in the community that
      > produced
      > > that gospel. And indeed that charge seems to have made, since it is
      > attested
      > > about two generations later in Celsus and Justin Martyr.
      > >
      > > On the other hand, the absence of any defense against the charge
      > that Jesus
      > > was buried in his family tomb suggests is at least negative
      > evidence that
      > > the charge was not made by opponents of any of the early Christian
      > > communities that produced the texts (canonical or otherwise that we
      > have),
      > > since the idea is never mentioned in any surviving document.
      > >
      > > That isn't conclusive evidence. But look at the alternative. If
      > such a
      > > burial took place, surely James, and probably Peter, would have
      > known of it,
      > > at least. This means that they either preached a gospel of Jesus
      > that did
      > > not include the bodily resurrection (of which there is absolutely no
      > > evidence), or else they were somehow deluded on the point, or they
      > were
      > > hypocritical. But even to go that far, we're already so far afield
      > from any
      > > evidence that it is almost science fiction.
      > >
      > > Bradley A. Skene

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Niels Peter Lemche
      My review: http://www.bookreviews.org/pdf/4277_4249.pdf Niels Peter Lemche ... Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Jim West
      Message 34 of 34 , Jul 4, 2007
        My review: http://www.bookreviews.org/pdf/4277_4249.pdf

        Niels Peter Lemche

        -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
        Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Jim West
        Sendt: 5. juli 2007 00:12
        Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Emne: [ANE-2] Re: life after death stuff

        Alan Segal's "Life After Death" deals with all the issues that have been
        discussed in this thread of another name. If someone has already
        mentioned Segal I apologize for repeating it- but if his work has been
        mentioned list folk really should give it a read.

        > I would like to find clear ancient references to a spiritual resurrection, and am not convinced that the Pauline writings are sufficiently clearly in support of a spiritual resurrection.

        Jim West, ThD

        http://drjewest.googlepages.com/ -- Biblical Studies Resources
        http://drjimwest.wordpress.com -- Weblog

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