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Re: [ANE-2] Re: Depopulation of Northern Israel

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  • E Bruce Brooks
    To: ANE-2 In Response To: Bob Whiting On: Collapse of Complex Societies From: Bruce I had doubted whether collapse of the urban center would necessarily entail
    Message 1 of 24 , Jun 1 9:42 PM
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      To: ANE-2
      In Response To: Bob Whiting
      On: Collapse of Complex Societies
      From: Bruce

      I had doubted whether collapse of the urban center would necessarily entail
      literal depopulation of its hinterland. I had called for a counterexample.
      The only one so far offered is:

      BOB: Ever read William Jennings Bryan's "Cross of Gold" Speech? "I tell you
      that the great cities rest upon these broad and fertile prairies. Burn down
      your cities and leave our farms, and your cities will spring up again as if
      by magic. But destroy our farms and the grass will grow in the streets of
      every city in the country." Not what you'd call scholarship . . .

      BRUCE: No, not what I would call scholarship.

      It's night here, and I thus haven't been able to access a Tainter since
      Tainter was last mentioned. But from what can be gleaned from the six
      reviews of it which JSTOR includes, Tainter may have problems too (none of
      the reviews is wholly positive). For one thing, I get the impression that he
      prefers internal explanations (this is still the Age of Renfrew, isn't it)
      to external ones. But precisely in the case of Rome, one of his three main
      examples, a case can be made, and by one reviewer *is* made, that external
      factors were decisive.

      Tainter is also said to take up, though at less length, the "collapse" of
      early China. I get the impression that this means the loss of power by the
      hegemonic Jou state in the year 0771. Almost needless to say, no reviewer of
      the six dares touch on China material. China is agreed by all civilized
      persons to be somewhere off the planet. That I understand. And little
      enough, in all conscience, is known about the event in question. But if that
      is indeed the example, it may, I think, be said with reasonable confidence
      that the sudden vanishing of Jou overlordship left the former tributary
      states themselves in perfectly viable shape, as newly independent states.
      Over the next century, beyond merely surviving, which they did handsomely
      and without recorded or rumored difficulty, they gradually associated
      themselves into a lateral multi-state system, with indeed a more dispersed
      sovereignty than before, but not no sovereignty at all. The general
      expectation in such cases might be that the units become smaller, once the
      coordinating power is removed, but they don't themselves vanish. On the
      contrary, they may well become stronger.

      Loss of complexity (Tainter's term) may not mean loss of everything. It may
      simply mean, and some reviewers seem to imply that Tainter may sometimes
      mean by it, a reversion to a less complex situation.

      Is this such a strange notion? Did the "collapse" of Rome depopulate the
      shores of the Mediterranean?

      If your town's Wal-Mart were suddenly removed (as, by a bomb), the effect on
      the merely local retail sector would probably be beneficial rather than
      harmful, no? Ask your local bookseller, next time you drop in, and if you
      haven't dropped in for a while, maybe you should make it a point to do so,
      while the bookseller is still there. Do it today.

      The advent of the national chain Staples some years ago, in my area, drove
      at least three local stationers out of business, or into business in more
      remote locations. The notion that the more nationally integrated sector of
      the economy is necessary to the health of the more locally based sector(s)
      of the economy is not one that is going to survive many lunches with small
      business owners. Or so my personal data files seem to suggest.

      Then farmers whose source of John Deere tractors were suddenly removed might
      go back to horses, but that they would abandon farming altogether seems a
      drastic assumption. It is at least worth considering that, without the
      expropriative tax on their yield, which is what The City might represent to
      some of them, they would have enough to eat in the first place. Having
      enough to eat might be thought to be a supportive, rather than a
      disintegrative, factor in the future of the rural sector.

      Is the city parasitic on its hinterland, or constitutive for its hinterland?
      The answer may be situationally dependent, or culture dependent, or even
      technology dependent, but the most general answer still seems to me to be,
      in all probability, other than Tainter is reputed to think it is.

      But soon comes the dawn, and I will have my shot at seeing what Tainter
      thinks he thinks. More perhaps then.

      Bruce

      E Bruce Brooks
      Warring States Project
      University of Massachusetts at Amherst
    • paolo merlo
      Dear Liz, As the Bible and the Babylonian Chronicles say that Salmaneser conquered Samaria, whilst the inscriptions of Sargon II says that he himself was the
      Message 2 of 24 , Jun 4 2:56 AM
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        Dear Liz,
        As the Bible and the Babylonian Chronicles say that Salmaneser conquered
        Samaria, whilst the inscriptions of Sargon II says that he himself was the
        "conqueror of Samaria", some scholars suggest that Salmaneser V conquered
        Samaria, but only Sargon II carried out the deportation.
        Cfr. A. Fuchs, Die Inschriften Sargons II. aus Khorsabad, Göttingen 1994, p.
        457-58.

        Other matter: I. Finkelstein and N.A. Silbermann say that a torrent of
        refugees came from Israel to Judah in the short period of time between 722
        (Samaria's fall) and 701 (Sennacherib's campaign against Jerusalem). In
        Finkelstein-Silbermann's view, in the late eighth cent. BCE Jerusalem grew
        in size from c. 6 to c. 60 hectares. Cfr. I. Finkelstein, N.A. Silbermann,
        Temple and Dynasty. Hezekiah, the Remaking of Judah and the Rise of the
        Pan-Israelite Ideology, in JSOT 30, 2006, 259-285 (spec. 265-67).

        Best wishes,
        Paolo Merlo
        PUL - Rome

        ------------
        Posted by: "Lisbeth S. Fried"
        lizfried@...

        Thu May 31, 2007 6:30 am (PST)


        Prof. Tadmor suggested (personal communication; I don’t know if
        he wrote it

        somewhere) that Shalmaneser V deported them, and that Sargon II took the

        credit in his inscriptions.



        But I don’t know how we’d verify that.



        Liz Fried

        _________________________________________________________________
        Scarica Windows Live Messenger e chiama gratis in tutto il mondo!
        http://www.messenger.it/connessione.html
      • Niels Peter Lemche
        It is quite obvious that Finkelstein and Silberman are quite conventional here. It s an age old idea of, e.g., Albrecht Alt and the old explanation of the
        Message 3 of 24 , Jun 4 3:43 AM
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          It is quite obvious that Finkelstein and Silberman are quite conventional here. It's an age old idea of, e.g., Albrecht Alt and the old explanation of the presence of deuteronomism in the Old Testament.

          Would be interesting to know if it is realy possible to date the expansion of Jerusalem to 722-701 and not after 701 as a consequence of Sennacherib's destruction of Hezekiah's kingdom, including the perhps formerly leading city of Lachish.

          It's a couple of yars ago since I read the first volume by Finkelstein and Silberman, but I do not remember them presenting any special evidence for their claim. Will check.

          Niels Peter Lemche




          -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
          Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af paolo merlo
          Sendt: 4. juni 2007 11:56
          Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Emne: [ANE-2] Re: Depopulation of Northern Israel


          Dear Liz,
          As the Bible and the Babylonian Chronicles say that Salmaneser conquered
          Samaria, whilst the inscriptions of Sargon II says that he himself was the
          "conqueror of Samaria", some scholars suggest that Salmaneser V conquered
          Samaria, but only Sargon II carried out the deportation.
          Cfr. A. Fuchs, Die Inschriften Sargons II. aus Khorsabad, Göttingen 1994, p.
          457-58.

          Other matter: I. Finkelstein and N.A. Silbermann say that a torrent of
          refugees came from Israel to Judah in the short period of time between 722
          (Samaria's fall) and 701 (Sennacherib's campaign against Jerusalem). In
          Finkelstein-Silbermann's view, in the late eighth cent. BCE Jerusalem grew
          in size from c. 6 to c. 60 hectares. Cfr. I. Finkelstein, N.A. Silbermann,
          Temple and Dynasty. Hezekiah, the Remaking of Judah and the Rise of the
          Pan-Israelite Ideology, in JSOT 30, 2006, 259-285 (spec. 265-67).

          Best wishes,
          Paolo Merlo
          PUL - Rome

          ------------
          Posted by: "Lisbeth S. Fried"
          lizfried@...

          Thu May 31, 2007 6:30 am (PST)


          Prof. Tadmor suggested (personal communication; I don't know if
          he wrote it

          somewhere) that Shalmaneser V deported them, and that Sargon II took the

          credit in his inscriptions.



          But I don't know how we'd verify that.



          Liz Fried

          _________________________________________________________________
          Scarica Windows Live Messenger e chiama gratis in tutto il mondo!
          http://www.messenger.it/connessione.html




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        • K L Noll
          Greetings, all: I really don t want to intrude into this conversation, but since several times people have stressed the conventional viewpoint that refugees
          Message 4 of 24 , Jun 5 7:10 AM
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            Greetings, all:
            I really don't want to intrude into this conversation, but since several times people have stressed the conventional viewpoint that refugees poured into Jerusalem after the fall of Samaria and prior to Sennacherib's invasion, I thought I'd recommend that y'all might at least consider the interesting alternative argument by Axel Knauf. So far as I know, this has not yet been mentioned:

            E. A. Knauf, "The Glorious Days of Manasseh," in L.L. Grabbe, editor, Good Kings and Bad Kings (T&T Clark International, 2005), pp. 164-88.

            Knauf suggests, based on examination of the archaeological record for Judah, that the increase in Jerusalem population took place in the 7th century, not the late 8th century.

            Shalom,
            K. L. Noll
            Brandon University
            Brandon, Manitoba

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Tory Thorpe
            ... Just how certain is the reading of Samaria in the Babylonian Chronicle? I know Tadmor was certain of this, but is anyone aware of dissenting opinion? Tory
            Message 5 of 24 , Jun 5 11:48 AM
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              --- paolo merlo <paolo_merlo@...> wrote:

              > Dear Liz,
              > As the Bible and the Babylonian Chronicles say that
              > Salmaneser conquered
              > Samaria, whilst the inscriptions of Sargon II says
              > that he himself was the
              > "conqueror of Samaria", some scholars suggest that
              > Salmaneser V conquered
              > Samaria, but only Sargon II carried out the
              > deportation.
              > Cfr. A. Fuchs, Die Inschriften Sargons II. aus
              > Khorsabad, G�ttingen 1994, p.
              > 457-58.

              Just how certain is the reading of Samaria in
              the Babylonian Chronicle? I know Tadmor
              was certain of this, but is anyone aware of
              dissenting opinion?

              Tory Thorpe
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