Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: Crucifixion

Expand Messages
  • Dierk van den Berg
    Antonio, we simply have to distinguish between antiquity and medieval times not to draw misleading conclusions (e.g. the crucified Sophia ) from events of the
    Message 1 of 20 , May 3, 2007
      Antonio,
      we simply have to distinguish between antiquity and medieval times
      not to draw misleading conclusions (e.g. 'the crucified Sophia') from
      events of the Dark Ages. And thanks for the ref. to Fitzmyer.

      regards,
      Dierk van den Berg
      RU Nijmegen, NL
      -------------------------------------------
      kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)



      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Despite the wrong belief that after Constantine crucifixion was
      not
      > longer used as death punishment (the Christian world during Middle
      > Ages still practiced crucifixion, see ALBERTUS MAGNUS,_Super
      > Matthaeum_, V, 22), I've found many Palestinians crucified people
      by
      > Christians and two more late sources about women crucified by
      Arabs
      > in the VIIth century.
      >
      > A Nestorian monk tells in his _Chronicon anonymum_ (Corpus
      Scriptorum
      > Christianorum Orientalium [CSCO], vol. 1, 1, p. 34) that in the
      > Manichean village of Shatru even the women were crucified (zqaph).
      > And John of Ephesus (Eccl. Hist. III, 19, CSCO, vol. 105, p. 146)
      > recalls the crucifixion (zqipho') of Monophiste nuns.
      >
      > And, beside the work of Hengel, a masterpiece about crucifixion
      has
      > been written by J.A. FITZMYER, _Crucifixion in Ancient Palestine,
      > Qumran Literature and the New Testament_, "Catholical Biblical
      > Quarterly", 40 (1978), pp. 493-513, even if he doesn't report
      cases
      > of crucified women.
      >
      > Antonio
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Il giorno 03/mag/07, alle ore 16:39, Dierk van den Berg ha scritto:
      >
      > > The supplicium de more maiorum, the punishment in which the the
      > > accused was
      > > beaten to death with rods is the origin behind the later
      supplicium
      > > servile
      > > under constitutional law, infelici arbori reste suspendito,
      > > mechanism of
      > > execution based upon the Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis (BC
      82),
      > > commonly known from the Spartacus uprising. Crucifixion as an
      > > instrument of
      > > bilateral terror is first known from the Three Punic Wars, and
      we
      > > see a
      > > Roman adoption of Carthaginian handling of treachery, first
      > > exercised by
      > > Scipio who crucified the Roman perfugae after the fall of
      Carthage.
      > > Apparently during the wars the Roman propaganda had created the
      > > stigma of
      > > the Roman woman crucified together with her babies, probably an
      > > allegory of
      > > the Roman lupa and Romulus and Remus, reflecting the status quo
      of
      > > a Roman
      > > state under heavy pressure. However, Josephus (resp. his source)
      > > has used
      > > this stigma of foreign terror to describe the situation in
      > > Jerusalem when
      > > the Jews first came into contact with the brutality of ex-
      Ptolemaic
      > > Macedonian/Kittim/Cyriote mercenaries of the Seleucid King on
      his
      > > return
      > > from the failed expedition to Egypt in 168/7 BC. It is
      sufficiently
      > > known
      > > from history that a mortified (or beaten) army on the retreat is
      by
      > > far more
      > > brutal against NOCs than a victorious one on the advance. And as
      a
      > > classical
      > > sign of experienced brutality directed against the substance of
      a
      > > people I'd
      > > expect the allegory of the crucified woman (esp. of a pregnant
      one
      > > or mother
      > > of babies) again in the days of the Nero-redivivus Domitian,
      btw.
      > > the minted
      > > Hebrew 666 transliteration, simply to describe the common fear of
      a
      > > genocide. Actually I take the crucified woman for an allegory, a
      > > symbol of
      > > description, rather for a literally to be taken fact. Not by
      chance
      > > the
      > > murder by a woman was committed in the Empire by crushing the
      head
      > > with a
      > > club (Val. Max. 7.1; Amb. 1). And we don't even deal with female
      > > murder.
      > > The Mishna or Josephus' bloomy anecdotes (Ant 12.256; 18.79ff.)
      as
      > > reliable
      > > sources to understand history or a phenomenon at its periphery
      is
      > > somewhat
      > > wide of the mark though, and thus to be rejected.
      > > However, reading Martin Hengel_Crucifixion, Fortress Press 1977
      > > would not be
      > > amiss.
      > >
      > > regards,
      > > Dierk van den Berg
      > > RU Nijmegen, NL
      > > -------------------------------------------
      > > kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: "ANTONIO LOMBATTI" <antonio.lombatti@...>
      > > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 11:14 PM
      > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
      > >
      > > > These are the only two sources about women crucifixion that I
      know
      > > > of, apart from the Jewish ones quoted by Joe (Tractate Mourning
      2.11
      > > > and Sanhedrin 6.5) in this article:
      > > >
      > > > http://www.centuryone.org/crucifixion2.html
      > > >
      > > > Antonio
      > > > antonio lombatti
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
    • Antonio Lombatti
      Sorry, you re right. I ve only searched for sources about crucified women. And this had lead me to AD 600. Best regards, Antonio ... [Non-text portions of this
      Message 2 of 20 , May 3, 2007
        Sorry, you're right. I've only searched for sources about crucified
        women. And this had lead me to AD 600.

        Best regards,
        Antonio



        Il giorno 03/mag/07, alle ore 19:51, Dierk van den Berg ha scritto:

        > Antonio,
        > we simply have to distinguish between antiquity and medieval times
        > not to draw misleading conclusions (e.g. 'the crucified Sophia') from
        > events of the Dark Ages. And thanks for the ref. to Fitzmyer.
        >
        > regards,
        > Dierk van den Berg
        > RU Nijmegen, NL
        > -------------------------------------------
        > kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)
        >
        > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Despite the wrong belief that after Constantine crucifixion was
        > not
        > > longer used as death punishment (the Christian world during Middle
        > > Ages still practiced crucifixion, see ALBERTUS MAGNUS,_Super
        > > Matthaeum_, V, 22), I've found many Palestinians crucified people
        > by
        > > Christians and two more late sources about women crucified by
        > Arabs
        > > in the VIIth century.
        > >
        > > A Nestorian monk tells in his _Chronicon anonymum_ (Corpus
        > Scriptorum
        > > Christianorum Orientalium [CSCO], vol. 1, 1, p. 34) that in the
        > > Manichean village of Shatru even the women were crucified (zqaph).
        > > And John of Ephesus (Eccl. Hist. III, 19, CSCO, vol. 105, p. 146)
        > > recalls the crucifixion (zqipho') of Monophiste nuns.
        > >
        > > And, beside the work of Hengel, a masterpiece about crucifixion
        > has
        > > been written by J.A. FITZMYER, _Crucifixion in Ancient Palestine,
        > > Qumran Literature and the New Testament_, "Catholical Biblical
        > > Quarterly", 40 (1978), pp. 493-513, even if he doesn't report
        > cases
        > > of crucified women.
        > >
        > > Antonio
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Il giorno 03/mag/07, alle ore 16:39, Dierk van den Berg ha scritto:
        > >
        > > > The supplicium de more maiorum, the punishment in which the the
        > > > accused was
        > > > beaten to death with rods is the origin behind the later
        > supplicium
        > > > servile
        > > > under constitutional law, infelici arbori reste suspendito,
        > > > mechanism of
        > > > execution based upon the Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis (BC
        > 82),
        > > > commonly known from the Spartacus uprising. Crucifixion as an
        > > > instrument of
        > > > bilateral terror is first known from the Three Punic Wars, and
        > we
        > > > see a
        > > > Roman adoption of Carthaginian handling of treachery, first
        > > > exercised by
        > > > Scipio who crucified the Roman perfugae after the fall of
        > Carthage.
        > > > Apparently during the wars the Roman propaganda had created the
        > > > stigma of
        > > > the Roman woman crucified together with her babies, probably an
        > > > allegory of
        > > > the Roman lupa and Romulus and Remus, reflecting the status quo
        > of
        > > > a Roman
        > > > state under heavy pressure. However, Josephus (resp. his source)
        > > > has used
        > > > this stigma of foreign terror to describe the situation in
        > > > Jerusalem when
        > > > the Jews first came into contact with the brutality of ex-
        > Ptolemaic
        > > > Macedonian/Kittim/Cyriote mercenaries of the Seleucid King on
        > his
        > > > return
        > > > from the failed expedition to Egypt in 168/7 BC. It is
        > sufficiently
        > > > known
        > > > from history that a mortified (or beaten) army on the retreat is
        > by
        > > > far more
        > > > brutal against NOCs than a victorious one on the advance. And as
        > a
        > > > classical
        > > > sign of experienced brutality directed against the substance of
        > a
        > > > people I'd
        > > > expect the allegory of the crucified woman (esp. of a pregnant
        > one
        > > > or mother
        > > > of babies) again in the days of the Nero-redivivus Domitian,
        > btw.
        > > > the minted
        > > > Hebrew 666 transliteration, simply to describe the common fear of
        > a
        > > > genocide. Actually I take the crucified woman for an allegory, a
        > > > symbol of
        > > > description, rather for a literally to be taken fact. Not by
        > chance
        > > > the
        > > > murder by a woman was committed in the Empire by crushing the
        > head
        > > > with a
        > > > club (Val. Max. 7.1; Amb. 1). And we don't even deal with female
        > > > murder.
        > > > The Mishna or Josephus' bloomy anecdotes (Ant 12.256; 18.79ff.)
        > as
        > > > reliable
        > > > sources to understand history or a phenomenon at its periphery
        > is
        > > > somewhat
        > > > wide of the mark though, and thus to be rejected.
        > > > However, reading Martin Hengel_Crucifixion, Fortress Press 1977
        > > > would not be
        > > > amiss.
        > > >
        > > > regards,
        > > > Dierk van den Berg
        > > > RU Nijmegen, NL
        > > > -------------------------------------------
        > > > kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)
        > > >
        > > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > > From: "ANTONIO LOMBATTI" <antonio.lombatti@...>
        > > > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
        > > > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 11:14 PM
        > > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
        > > >
        > > > > These are the only two sources about women crucifixion that I
        > know
        > > > > of, apart from the Jewish ones quoted by Joe (Tractate Mourning
        > 2.11
        > > > > and Sanhedrin 6.5) in this article:
        > > > >
        > > > > http://www.centuryone.org/crucifixion2.html
        > > > >
        > > > > Antonio
        > > > > antonio lombatti
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        >
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Antonio Lombatti
        I ve found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National Archaeological Museum. Even if I m a bit doubtful about its interpretation, the
        Message 3 of 20 , May 9, 2007
          I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National
          Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
          interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
          crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).

          I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person was
          hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
          been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the thesis
          that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
          by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
          abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
          principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
          l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).

          However, this might be the only representation of a hung (crucified?)
          woman that I'm aware of.

          I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at

          http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg

          Antonio Lombatti


          P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
          couple of days. (:-)




          Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:

          > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a woman
          > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
          > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
          >
          > Peter Miscall
          >
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Trudy Kawami
          Antonio, I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or whatever. It would
          Message 4 of 20 , May 10, 2007
            Antonio,
            I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or whatever. It would be good to look at the original object before offering an interpretation. At best the style is 4th cent. BCE, not 5th. Where did you find the drawing? The woman looks like she is dancing, not being hung on a tree; there are baskets, clothes, jewlery and other figures (seated at rt?) so the section you posted does not give the whole scene.I doubtg whether the scene has anything to do with crucifixions.
            Trudy Kawami

            ________________________________

            From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Antonio Lombatti
            Sent: Wed 5/9/2007 12:12 PM
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion



            I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National
            Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
            interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
            crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).

            I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person was
            hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
            been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the thesis
            that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
            by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
            abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
            principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
            l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).

            However, this might be the only representation of a hung (crucified?)
            woman that I'm aware of.

            I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at

            http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg <http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg>

            Antonio Lombatti

            P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
            couple of days. (:-)

            Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:

            > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a woman
            > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
            > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
            >
            > Peter Miscall
            >
            >
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Antonio Lombatti
            Trudy, I have no expertise in ancient Art History, therefore I posted the image so that some of could judge it. Probably, it has nothing to do with
            Message 5 of 20 , May 11, 2007
              Trudy,

              I have no expertise in ancient Art History, therefore I posted the
              image so that some of could judge it. Probably, it has nothing to do
              with crucifixion, as you suggested; however, I think that she (I mean
              the hung woman) should not be dancing with her wrists tied and
              completely naked.

              The picture is labelled and dated as I wrote in my previous post.
              However, I have lots of doubts about it. I've seen it in an Italian
              paper on death penalties in Antiquity and as for the above image it
              says it comes from M. Torelli _Etruria. Guida Archeologica_. Roma:
              Laterza, 1993.

              There are two more interesting photos (even if they don't refer to
              women crucifixion):

              http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/6908/cruxpl5.jpg


              1. (Above) Bas-relief of the Palace of Sennacherib at Niniveh
              depicting the taking of Lachish (701/689-688); it showa two men
              "crucified" on boards and flayed.
              2. (Below) Assyrian crucifixion by means of nails and rings


              Comments and suggestions are all welcome, since I'm finishing a paper
              on crucifixion.

              Antonio Lombatti


              Il giorno 11/mag/07, alle ore 04:36, Trudy Kawami ha scritto:

              > Antonio,
              > I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing
              > after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or
              > whatever. It would be good to look at the original object before
              > offering an interpretation. At best the style is 4th cent. BCE, not
              > 5th. Where did you find the drawing? The woman looks like she is
              > dancing, not being hung on a tree; there are baskets, clothes,
              > jewlery and other figures (seated at rt?) so the section you posted
              > does not give the whole scene.I doubtg whether the scene has
              > anything to do with crucifixions.
              > Trudy Kawami
              >
              > ________________________________
              >
              > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Antonio Lombatti
              > Sent: Wed 5/9/2007 12:12 PM
              > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
              >
              > I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National
              > Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
              > interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
              > crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).
              >
              > I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person was
              > hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
              > been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the thesis
              > that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
              > by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
              > abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
              > principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
              > l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).
              >
              > However, this might be the only representation of a hung (crucified?)
              > woman that I'm aware of.
              >
              > I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at
              >
              > http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg<http://
              > img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg>
              >
              > Antonio Lombatti
              >
              > P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
              > couple of days. (:-)
              >
              > Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:
              >
              > > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a
              > woman
              > > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
              > > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
              > >
              > > Peter Miscall
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • sbudin@camden.rutgers.edu
              The naked dancer, plus the box, alabastron, etc. seems more reminiscent of initiation into the mysteries (of Dionysos?) than crucifixion. A rather late
              Message 6 of 20 , May 11, 2007
                The naked dancer, plus the box, alabastron, etc. seems more reminiscent of
                initiation into the mysteries (of Dionysos?) than crucifixion. A rather late
                comparandum would be the Villa of the Mysteries at Pompeii. Here there is at
                least one mostly naked girl being whipped, and a naked female dancer with
                cistra.
                Perhaps this is a religious scene?

                -Stephanie Budin



                Quoting Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...>:

                > Trudy,
                >
                > I have no expertise in ancient Art History, therefore I posted the
                > image so that some of could judge it. Probably, it has nothing to do
                > with crucifixion, as you suggested; however, I think that she (I mean
                > the hung woman) should not be dancing with her wrists tied and
                > completely naked.
                >
                > The picture is labelled and dated as I wrote in my previous post.
                > However, I have lots of doubts about it. I've seen it in an Italian
                > paper on death penalties in Antiquity and as for the above image it
                > says it comes from M. Torelli _Etruria. Guida Archeologica_. Roma:
                > Laterza, 1993.
                >
                > There are two more interesting photos (even if they don't refer to
                > women crucifixion):
                >
                > http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/6908/cruxpl5.jpg
                >
                >
                > 1. (Above) Bas-relief of the Palace of Sennacherib at Niniveh
                > depicting the taking of Lachish (701/689-688); it showa two men
                > "crucified" on boards and flayed.
                > 2. (Below) Assyrian crucifixion by means of nails and rings
                >
                >
                > Comments and suggestions are all welcome, since I'm finishing a paper
                > on crucifixion.
                >
                > Antonio Lombatti
                >
                >
                > Il giorno 11/mag/07, alle ore 04:36, Trudy Kawami ha scritto:
                >
                > > Antonio,
                > > I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing
                > > after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or
                > > whatever. It would be good to look at the original object before
                > > offering an interpretation. At best the style is 4th cent. BCE, not
                > > 5th. Where did you find the drawing? The woman looks like she is
                > > dancing, not being hung on a tree; there are baskets, clothes,
                > > jewlery and other figures (seated at rt?) so the section you posted
                > > does not give the whole scene.I doubtg whether the scene has
                > > anything to do with crucifixions.
                > > Trudy Kawami
                > >
                > > ________________________________
                > >
                > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Antonio Lombatti
                > > Sent: Wed 5/9/2007 12:12 PM
                > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
                > >
                > > I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National
                > > Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
                > > interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
                > > crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).
                > >
                > > I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person was
                > > hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
                > > been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the thesis
                > > that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
                > > by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
                > > abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
                > > principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
                > > l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).
                > >
                > > However, this might be the only representation of a hung (crucified?)
                > > woman that I'm aware of.
                > >
                > > I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at
                > >
                > > http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg<http://
                > > img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg>
                > >
                > > Antonio Lombatti
                > >
                > > P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
                > > couple of days. (:-)
                > >
                > > Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:
                > >
                > > > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a
                > > woman
                > > > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
                > > > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
                > > >
                > > > Peter Miscall
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >


                "Maybe we can link up with someone who’s meditating and download enlightenment!"
                -Tachikoma
              • nick smith
                The two pics shown dipict the Assyrian king Ansasurpal (appologies for the spelling) flaying POWs after campaining in northen Mesopotamia.The POWs are soldiers
                Message 7 of 20 , May 12, 2007
                  The two pics shown dipict the Assyrian king Ansasurpal (appologies for the spelling) flaying POWs after campaining in northen Mesopotamia.The POWs are soldiers being flayed in front of their children.I'll try find a clearer reference forb the image and post,but these images also have nothing to do with crucifixion.

                  Hope this helps,

                  Nick Smith

                  Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...> wrote:
                  Trudy,

                  I have no expertise in ancient Art History, therefore I posted the
                  image so that some of could judge it. Probably, it has nothing to do
                  with crucifixion, as you suggested; however, I think that she (I mean
                  the hung woman) should not be dancing with her wrists tied and
                  completely naked.

                  The picture is labelled and dated as I wrote in my previous post.
                  However, I have lots of doubts about it. I've seen it in an Italian
                  paper on death penalties in Antiquity and as for the above image it
                  says it comes from M. Torelli _Etruria. Guida Archeologica_. Roma:
                  Laterza, 1993.

                  There are two more interesting photos (even if they don't refer to
                  women crucifixion):

                  http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/6908/cruxpl5.jpg

                  1. (Above) Bas-relief of the Palace of Sennacherib at Niniveh
                  depicting the taking of Lachish (701/689-688); it showa two men
                  "crucified" on boards and flayed.
                  2. (Below) Assyrian crucifixion by means of nails and rings

                  Comments and suggestions are all welcome, since I'm finishing a paper
                  on crucifixion.

                  Antonio Lombatti

                  Il giorno 11/mag/07, alle ore 04:36, Trudy Kawami ha scritto:

                  > Antonio,
                  > I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing
                  > after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or
                  > whatever. It would be good to look at the original object before
                  > offering an interpretation. At best the style is 4th cent. BCE, not
                  > 5th. Where did you find the drawing? The woman looks like she is
                  > dancing, not being hung on a tree; there are baskets, clothes,
                  > jewlery and other figures (seated at rt?) so the section you posted
                  > does not give the whole scene.I doubtg whether the scene has
                  > anything to do with crucifixions.
                  > Trudy Kawami
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  >
                  > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Antonio Lombatti
                  > Sent: Wed 5/9/2007 12:12 PM
                  > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
                  >
                  > I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National
                  > Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
                  > interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
                  > crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).
                  >
                  > I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person was
                  > hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
                  > been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the thesis
                  > that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
                  > by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
                  > abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
                  > principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
                  > l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).
                  >
                  > However, this might be the only representation of a hung (crucified?)
                  > woman that I'm aware of.
                  >
                  > I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at
                  >
                  > http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg<http://
                  > img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg>
                  >
                  > Antonio Lombatti
                  >
                  > P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
                  > couple of days. (:-)
                  >
                  > Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:
                  >
                  > > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a
                  > woman
                  > > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
                  > > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
                  > >
                  > > Peter Miscall
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                  ---------------------------------
                  The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider.

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Antonio Lombatti
                  Nick, thanks for your opinion. Both images are listed as crucifixions by P. Vitale, _Crocifissione_. Phaidon: Roma, 2005, who quotes J.J. Collins,_Archaeology
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 12, 2007
                    Nick,

                    thanks for your opinion. Both images are listed as crucifixions by P.
                    Vitale, _Crocifissione_. Phaidon: Roma, 2005, who quotes J.J.
                    Collins,_Archaeology of the Crucifixion_. in "Catholical Biblical
                    Quarterly", 1 (1939), p. 160. As I said I am not an art historian;
                    however, in the second drawing, one can clearly see nails through the
                    victim's wrists. Probably, there were nailed in order to flay them
                    better.

                    Antonio Lombatti



                    Il giorno 12/mag/07, alle ore 20:23, nick smith ha scritto:

                    > The two pics shown dipict the Assyrian king Ansasurpal (appologies
                    > for the spelling) flaying POWs after campaining in northen
                    > Mesopotamia.The POWs are soldiers being flayed in front of their
                    > children.I'll try find a clearer reference forb the image and
                    > post,but these images also have nothing to do with crucifixion.
                    >
                    > Hope this helps,
                    >
                    > Nick Smith
                    >
                    > Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...> wrote:
                    > Trudy,
                    >
                    > I have no expertise in ancient Art History, therefore I posted the
                    > image so that some of could judge it. Probably, it has nothing to do
                    > with crucifixion, as you suggested; however, I think that she (I mean
                    > the hung woman) should not be dancing with her wrists tied and
                    > completely naked.
                    >
                    > The picture is labelled and dated as I wrote in my previous post.
                    > However, I have lots of doubts about it. I've seen it in an Italian
                    > paper on death penalties in Antiquity and as for the above image it
                    > says it comes from M. Torelli _Etruria. Guida Archeologica_. Roma:
                    > Laterza, 1993.
                    >
                    > There are two more interesting photos (even if they don't refer to
                    > women crucifixion):
                    >
                    > http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/6908/cruxpl5.jpg
                    >
                    > 1. (Above) Bas-relief of the Palace of Sennacherib at Niniveh
                    > depicting the taking of Lachish (701/689-688); it showa two men
                    > "crucified" on boards and flayed.
                    > 2. (Below) Assyrian crucifixion by means of nails and rings
                    >
                    > Comments and suggestions are all welcome, since I'm finishing a paper
                    > on crucifixion.
                    >
                    > Antonio Lombatti
                    >
                    > Il giorno 11/mag/07, alle ore 04:36, Trudy Kawami ha scritto:
                    >
                    > > Antonio,
                    > > I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing
                    > > after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or
                    > > whatever. It would be good to look at the original object before
                    > > offering an interpretation. At best the style is 4th cent. BCE, not
                    > > 5th. Where did you find the drawing? The woman looks like she is
                    > > dancing, not being hung on a tree; there are baskets, clothes,
                    > > jewlery and other figures (seated at rt?) so the section you posted
                    > > does not give the whole scene.I doubtg whether the scene has
                    > > anything to do with crucifixions.
                    > > Trudy Kawami
                    > >
                    > > ________________________________
                    > >
                    > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Antonio Lombatti
                    > > Sent: Wed 5/9/2007 12:12 PM
                    > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
                    > >
                    > > I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina
                    > National
                    > > Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
                    > > interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
                    > > crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).
                    > >
                    > > I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person
                    > was
                    > > hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
                    > > been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the
                    > thesis
                    > > that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
                    > > by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
                    > > abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
                    > > principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
                    > > l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).
                    > >
                    > > However, this might be the only representation of a hung
                    > (crucified?)
                    > > woman that I'm aware of.
                    > >
                    > > I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at
                    > >
                    > > http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg<http://
                    > > img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg>
                    > >
                    > > Antonio Lombatti
                    > >
                    > > P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
                    > > couple of days. (:-)
                    > >
                    > > Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:
                    > >
                    > > > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a
                    > > woman
                    > > > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
                    > > > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
                    > > >
                    > > > Peter Miscall
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email
                    > address from your Internet provider.
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • leeedgartyler@cox.net
                    ... Hello, Antonio, That s quite likely true, as victims of extraordinarily painful executions were often nailed in place first, but I would not classify such
                    Message 9 of 20 , May 12, 2007
                      ---- Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...> wrote:
                      > Nick,
                      >
                      > thanks for your opinion. Both images are listed as crucifixions by P.
                      > Vitale, _Crocifissione_. Phaidon: Roma, 2005, who quotes J.J.
                      > Collins,_Archaeology of the Crucifixion_. in "Catholical Biblical
                      > Quarterly", 1 (1939), p. 160. As I said I am not an art historian;
                      > however, in the second drawing, one can clearly see nails through the
                      > victim's wrists. Probably, there were nailed in order to flay them
                      > better.
                      >
                      > Antonio Lombatti
                      >

                      Hello, Antonio,

                      That's quite likely true, as victims of extraordinarily painful executions were often nailed in place first, but I would not classify such things as crucifixions. We're reliably informed by ancient sources that victims of burnings were often nailed to stakes, and pirates captured by the Imperial Japanese navies were nailed to the decks of their ships before being whipped to death. Obviously, these executions were not by crucifixion. As Nick notes, the executions depicted appear to be by flaying.

                      The salient feature of crucifixion is the nailing of the victim to a cross, after which gravity does its insidious work to kill him. (I've seen it said that they were sometimes tied to the cross, but have yet to find an ancient source to support this.) Executions by flaying, beating, or burning are another matter, even if nails were involved.

                      best,

                      Ed Tyler
                    • Antonio Lombatti
                      Ed, thanks for your observations. Since there s no agreement, I ll write that victims were nailed (not crucified) and then tortured. J. Fitzmyer and E. Puech
                      Message 10 of 20 , May 13, 2007
                        Ed,

                        thanks for your observations. Since there's no agreement, I'll write
                        that victims were nailed (not crucified) and then tortured. J.
                        Fitzmyer and E. Puech thought that even the OT and qumranic TLH
                        referred to crucifixion even if the texts do not clearly say that
                        victims were nailed to a wooden beam (Deut. 21:22-23, 4QpNah and
                        11QTemple - J.M. Baumgarten,_Does TLH in the Temple Scroll Refer to
                        Crucifixion?_. in "Journal of Biblical Literature" 91 [1972], pp.
                        472-481 and E. Puech, _Notes sur 11Q et 4Q524. A propos de la
                        crucifixion dans le Rouleau et dans le Judaisme_. in "Revue de
                        Qumran" 69 [1997], pp. 109-124).

                        The verb "talah" appears 30 times in the OT and it seems to have a
                        variety of possible translations (at least in Italian): raise,
                        suspend an oject, hang from a scaffold, find oneself suspended with
                        the mind (F. Parente,_Talah 'al 'es: una norma di diritto penale
                        biblico_. in "Studi classici e orientali" 27 [1977], pp. 79-137). I
                        would include all death punishments by "hanging alive" as crucifixion
                        (even the Aramaic SLB, see J. Levy,_Woerterbuch ueber die Talmudim
                        und Midraschchim_. Harz: Berlin, 1924, 4. Band, p. 189 "SLB=kreuzigen").

                        So, considering that the images I've posted before could or could not
                        refer to crucifixion in the sense how today the verb is understood,
                        the first representations of crucifixions that we have today are two
                        Italian graffiti, one found near Rome (AD 250) and the other one in
                        Pozzuoli (AD 100), and an Egyptian amulet (AD 200):


                        Pozzuoli graffito
                        http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/6475/pozzuolihv3.jpg

                        Alexamenos worshipping his God (Jesus)
                        http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/6682/alexmx9.jpg

                        Egyptian amulet
                        http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7995/egittool1.jpg


                        Moreover, the Pozzuoli graffito is our earliest iconographic source
                        about crucifixion (I mean, nailed or tied to a wooden beam). On a T-
                        shaped cross ("crux commissa" or "crux humilis") is a victim depicted
                        from behind. There is no evidence of a "suppedeaneum". The victim is
                        not naked but was clothed with an animal skin (?) (also Tacitus wrote
                        of condemned men dressed in animal skins; _Annales_, 15,44; 2,13,1:
                        "Ferarum tergist contecti", "contectus umeros ferina pelle").
                        Perhaps, this was done to attract te animals freed in the circus and
                        thus end up torn pieces as described in the mime of the _Laureolus_
                        (see Martial's _Spect._ 7 on Latin crucifixion shows).

                        As for the Pozzuoli crucifixion graffito, there are two different
                        interpretations. A. Maiuri says it depicts Jesus (_La Campania al
                        tempo dell'approdo di S. Paolo_. in "Studi Romani", 6 [1961], p.
                        135), while M. Guarducci is of the opinion that it represents a slave
                        woman, as the figure has long hair and wearing a tunic (not an animal
                        skin). Moreover, she identified an inscription over the victim's
                        head: ALCIMILLA (_Iscrizioni greche e latine in una Taberna di
                        Pozzuoli_. _Acta of the Fifth Epigraphic Congress_. IPS: Roma, 1967,
                        pp. 219-223).



                        Antonio Lombatti


                        Il giorno 13/mag/07, alle ore 01:53, leeedgartyler@... ha scritto:

                        >
                        > ---- Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...> wrote:
                        > > Nick,
                        > >
                        > > thanks for your opinion. Both images are listed as crucifixions
                        > by P.
                        > > Vitale, _Crocifissione_. Phaidon: Roma, 2005, who quotes J.J.
                        > > Collins,_Archaeology of the Crucifixion_. in "Catholical Biblical
                        > > Quarterly", 1 (1939), p. 160. As I said I am not an art historian;
                        > > however, in the second drawing, one can clearly see nails through
                        > the
                        > > victim's wrists. Probably, there were nailed in order to flay them
                        > > better.
                        > >
                        > > Antonio Lombatti
                        > >
                        >
                        > Hello, Antonio,
                        >
                        > That's quite likely true, as victims of extraordinarily painful
                        > executions were often nailed in place first, but I would not
                        > classify such things as crucifixions. We're reliably informed by
                        > ancient sources that victims of burnings were often nailed to
                        > stakes, and pirates captured by the Imperial Japanese navies were
                        > nailed to the decks of their ships before being whipped to death.
                        > Obviously, these executions were not by crucifixion. As Nick notes,
                        > the executions depicted appear to be by flaying.
                        >
                        > The salient feature of crucifixion is the nailing of the victim to
                        > a cross, after which gravity does its insidious work to kill him.
                        > (I've seen it said that they were sometimes tied to the cross, but
                        > have yet to find an ancient source to support this.) Executions by
                        > flaying, beating, or burning are another matter, even if nails were
                        > involved.
                        >
                        > best,
                        >
                        > Ed Tyler
                        >
                        >



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.