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Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion

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  • Antonio Lombatti
    Despite the wrong belief that after Constantine crucifixion was not longer used as death punishment (the Christian world during Middle Ages still practiced
    Message 1 of 20 , May 3, 2007
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      Despite the wrong belief that after Constantine crucifixion was not
      longer used as death punishment (the Christian world during Middle
      Ages still practiced crucifixion, see ALBERTUS MAGNUS,_Super
      Matthaeum_, V, 22), I've found many Palestinians crucified people by
      Christians and two more late sources about women crucified by Arabs
      in the VIIth century.

      A Nestorian monk tells in his _Chronicon anonymum_ (Corpus Scriptorum
      Christianorum Orientalium [CSCO], vol. 1, 1, p. 34) that in the
      Manichean village of Shatru even the women were crucified (zqaph).
      And John of Ephesus (Eccl. Hist. III, 19, CSCO, vol. 105, p. 146)
      recalls the crucifixion (zqipho') of Monophiste nuns.

      And, beside the work of Hengel, a masterpiece about crucifixion has
      been written by J.A. FITZMYER, _Crucifixion in Ancient Palestine,
      Qumran Literature and the New Testament_, "Catholical Biblical
      Quarterly", 40 (1978), pp. 493-513, even if he doesn't report cases
      of crucified women.

      Antonio






      Il giorno 03/mag/07, alle ore 16:39, Dierk van den Berg ha scritto:

      > The supplicium de more maiorum, the punishment in which the the
      > accused was
      > beaten to death with rods is the origin behind the later supplicium
      > servile
      > under constitutional law, infelici arbori reste suspendito,
      > mechanism of
      > execution based upon the Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis (BC 82),
      > commonly known from the Spartacus uprising. Crucifixion as an
      > instrument of
      > bilateral terror is first known from the Three Punic Wars, and we
      > see a
      > Roman adoption of Carthaginian handling of treachery, first
      > exercised by
      > Scipio who crucified the Roman perfugae after the fall of Carthage.
      > Apparently during the wars the Roman propaganda had created the
      > stigma of
      > the Roman woman crucified together with her babies, probably an
      > allegory of
      > the Roman lupa and Romulus and Remus, reflecting the status quo of
      > a Roman
      > state under heavy pressure. However, Josephus (resp. his source)
      > has used
      > this stigma of foreign terror to describe the situation in
      > Jerusalem when
      > the Jews first came into contact with the brutality of ex-Ptolemaic
      > Macedonian/Kittim/Cyriote mercenaries of the Seleucid King on his
      > return
      > from the failed expedition to Egypt in 168/7 BC. It is sufficiently
      > known
      > from history that a mortified (or beaten) army on the retreat is by
      > far more
      > brutal against NOCs than a victorious one on the advance. And as a
      > classical
      > sign of experienced brutality directed against the substance of a
      > people I'd
      > expect the allegory of the crucified woman (esp. of a pregnant one
      > or mother
      > of babies) again in the days of the Nero-redivivus Domitian, btw.
      > the minted
      > Hebrew 666 transliteration, simply to describe the common fear of a
      > genocide. Actually I take the crucified woman for an allegory, a
      > symbol of
      > description, rather for a literally to be taken fact. Not by chance
      > the
      > murder by a woman was committed in the Empire by crushing the head
      > with a
      > club (Val. Max. 7.1; Amb. 1). And we don't even deal with female
      > murder.
      > The Mishna or Josephus' bloomy anecdotes (Ant 12.256; 18.79ff.) as
      > reliable
      > sources to understand history or a phenomenon at its periphery is
      > somewhat
      > wide of the mark though, and thus to be rejected.
      > However, reading Martin Hengel_Crucifixion, Fortress Press 1977
      > would not be
      > amiss.
      >
      > regards,
      > Dierk van den Berg
      > RU Nijmegen, NL
      > -------------------------------------------
      > kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "ANTONIO LOMBATTI" <antonio.lombatti@...>
      > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 11:14 PM
      > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
      >
      > > These are the only two sources about women crucifixion that I know
      > > of, apart from the Jewish ones quoted by Joe (Tractate Mourning 2.11
      > > and Sanhedrin 6.5) in this article:
      > >
      > > http://www.centuryone.org/crucifixion2.html
      > >
      > > Antonio
      > > antonio lombatti
      >
      >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Dierk van den Berg
      Antonio, we simply have to distinguish between antiquity and medieval times not to draw misleading conclusions (e.g. the crucified Sophia ) from events of the
      Message 2 of 20 , May 3, 2007
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        Antonio,
        we simply have to distinguish between antiquity and medieval times
        not to draw misleading conclusions (e.g. 'the crucified Sophia') from
        events of the Dark Ages. And thanks for the ref. to Fitzmyer.

        regards,
        Dierk van den Berg
        RU Nijmegen, NL
        -------------------------------------------
        kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)



        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Despite the wrong belief that after Constantine crucifixion was
        not
        > longer used as death punishment (the Christian world during Middle
        > Ages still practiced crucifixion, see ALBERTUS MAGNUS,_Super
        > Matthaeum_, V, 22), I've found many Palestinians crucified people
        by
        > Christians and two more late sources about women crucified by
        Arabs
        > in the VIIth century.
        >
        > A Nestorian monk tells in his _Chronicon anonymum_ (Corpus
        Scriptorum
        > Christianorum Orientalium [CSCO], vol. 1, 1, p. 34) that in the
        > Manichean village of Shatru even the women were crucified (zqaph).
        > And John of Ephesus (Eccl. Hist. III, 19, CSCO, vol. 105, p. 146)
        > recalls the crucifixion (zqipho') of Monophiste nuns.
        >
        > And, beside the work of Hengel, a masterpiece about crucifixion
        has
        > been written by J.A. FITZMYER, _Crucifixion in Ancient Palestine,
        > Qumran Literature and the New Testament_, "Catholical Biblical
        > Quarterly", 40 (1978), pp. 493-513, even if he doesn't report
        cases
        > of crucified women.
        >
        > Antonio
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Il giorno 03/mag/07, alle ore 16:39, Dierk van den Berg ha scritto:
        >
        > > The supplicium de more maiorum, the punishment in which the the
        > > accused was
        > > beaten to death with rods is the origin behind the later
        supplicium
        > > servile
        > > under constitutional law, infelici arbori reste suspendito,
        > > mechanism of
        > > execution based upon the Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis (BC
        82),
        > > commonly known from the Spartacus uprising. Crucifixion as an
        > > instrument of
        > > bilateral terror is first known from the Three Punic Wars, and
        we
        > > see a
        > > Roman adoption of Carthaginian handling of treachery, first
        > > exercised by
        > > Scipio who crucified the Roman perfugae after the fall of
        Carthage.
        > > Apparently during the wars the Roman propaganda had created the
        > > stigma of
        > > the Roman woman crucified together with her babies, probably an
        > > allegory of
        > > the Roman lupa and Romulus and Remus, reflecting the status quo
        of
        > > a Roman
        > > state under heavy pressure. However, Josephus (resp. his source)
        > > has used
        > > this stigma of foreign terror to describe the situation in
        > > Jerusalem when
        > > the Jews first came into contact with the brutality of ex-
        Ptolemaic
        > > Macedonian/Kittim/Cyriote mercenaries of the Seleucid King on
        his
        > > return
        > > from the failed expedition to Egypt in 168/7 BC. It is
        sufficiently
        > > known
        > > from history that a mortified (or beaten) army on the retreat is
        by
        > > far more
        > > brutal against NOCs than a victorious one on the advance. And as
        a
        > > classical
        > > sign of experienced brutality directed against the substance of
        a
        > > people I'd
        > > expect the allegory of the crucified woman (esp. of a pregnant
        one
        > > or mother
        > > of babies) again in the days of the Nero-redivivus Domitian,
        btw.
        > > the minted
        > > Hebrew 666 transliteration, simply to describe the common fear of
        a
        > > genocide. Actually I take the crucified woman for an allegory, a
        > > symbol of
        > > description, rather for a literally to be taken fact. Not by
        chance
        > > the
        > > murder by a woman was committed in the Empire by crushing the
        head
        > > with a
        > > club (Val. Max. 7.1; Amb. 1). And we don't even deal with female
        > > murder.
        > > The Mishna or Josephus' bloomy anecdotes (Ant 12.256; 18.79ff.)
        as
        > > reliable
        > > sources to understand history or a phenomenon at its periphery
        is
        > > somewhat
        > > wide of the mark though, and thus to be rejected.
        > > However, reading Martin Hengel_Crucifixion, Fortress Press 1977
        > > would not be
        > > amiss.
        > >
        > > regards,
        > > Dierk van den Berg
        > > RU Nijmegen, NL
        > > -------------------------------------------
        > > kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: "ANTONIO LOMBATTI" <antonio.lombatti@...>
        > > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
        > > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 11:14 PM
        > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
        > >
        > > > These are the only two sources about women crucifixion that I
        know
        > > > of, apart from the Jewish ones quoted by Joe (Tractate Mourning
        2.11
        > > > and Sanhedrin 6.5) in this article:
        > > >
        > > > http://www.centuryone.org/crucifixion2.html
        > > >
        > > > Antonio
        > > > antonio lombatti
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Antonio Lombatti
        Sorry, you re right. I ve only searched for sources about crucified women. And this had lead me to AD 600. Best regards, Antonio ... [Non-text portions of this
        Message 3 of 20 , May 3, 2007
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          Sorry, you're right. I've only searched for sources about crucified
          women. And this had lead me to AD 600.

          Best regards,
          Antonio



          Il giorno 03/mag/07, alle ore 19:51, Dierk van den Berg ha scritto:

          > Antonio,
          > we simply have to distinguish between antiquity and medieval times
          > not to draw misleading conclusions (e.g. 'the crucified Sophia') from
          > events of the Dark Ages. And thanks for the ref. to Fitzmyer.
          >
          > regards,
          > Dierk van den Berg
          > RU Nijmegen, NL
          > -------------------------------------------
          > kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)
          >
          > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Despite the wrong belief that after Constantine crucifixion was
          > not
          > > longer used as death punishment (the Christian world during Middle
          > > Ages still practiced crucifixion, see ALBERTUS MAGNUS,_Super
          > > Matthaeum_, V, 22), I've found many Palestinians crucified people
          > by
          > > Christians and two more late sources about women crucified by
          > Arabs
          > > in the VIIth century.
          > >
          > > A Nestorian monk tells in his _Chronicon anonymum_ (Corpus
          > Scriptorum
          > > Christianorum Orientalium [CSCO], vol. 1, 1, p. 34) that in the
          > > Manichean village of Shatru even the women were crucified (zqaph).
          > > And John of Ephesus (Eccl. Hist. III, 19, CSCO, vol. 105, p. 146)
          > > recalls the crucifixion (zqipho') of Monophiste nuns.
          > >
          > > And, beside the work of Hengel, a masterpiece about crucifixion
          > has
          > > been written by J.A. FITZMYER, _Crucifixion in Ancient Palestine,
          > > Qumran Literature and the New Testament_, "Catholical Biblical
          > > Quarterly", 40 (1978), pp. 493-513, even if he doesn't report
          > cases
          > > of crucified women.
          > >
          > > Antonio
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Il giorno 03/mag/07, alle ore 16:39, Dierk van den Berg ha scritto:
          > >
          > > > The supplicium de more maiorum, the punishment in which the the
          > > > accused was
          > > > beaten to death with rods is the origin behind the later
          > supplicium
          > > > servile
          > > > under constitutional law, infelici arbori reste suspendito,
          > > > mechanism of
          > > > execution based upon the Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis (BC
          > 82),
          > > > commonly known from the Spartacus uprising. Crucifixion as an
          > > > instrument of
          > > > bilateral terror is first known from the Three Punic Wars, and
          > we
          > > > see a
          > > > Roman adoption of Carthaginian handling of treachery, first
          > > > exercised by
          > > > Scipio who crucified the Roman perfugae after the fall of
          > Carthage.
          > > > Apparently during the wars the Roman propaganda had created the
          > > > stigma of
          > > > the Roman woman crucified together with her babies, probably an
          > > > allegory of
          > > > the Roman lupa and Romulus and Remus, reflecting the status quo
          > of
          > > > a Roman
          > > > state under heavy pressure. However, Josephus (resp. his source)
          > > > has used
          > > > this stigma of foreign terror to describe the situation in
          > > > Jerusalem when
          > > > the Jews first came into contact with the brutality of ex-
          > Ptolemaic
          > > > Macedonian/Kittim/Cyriote mercenaries of the Seleucid King on
          > his
          > > > return
          > > > from the failed expedition to Egypt in 168/7 BC. It is
          > sufficiently
          > > > known
          > > > from history that a mortified (or beaten) army on the retreat is
          > by
          > > > far more
          > > > brutal against NOCs than a victorious one on the advance. And as
          > a
          > > > classical
          > > > sign of experienced brutality directed against the substance of
          > a
          > > > people I'd
          > > > expect the allegory of the crucified woman (esp. of a pregnant
          > one
          > > > or mother
          > > > of babies) again in the days of the Nero-redivivus Domitian,
          > btw.
          > > > the minted
          > > > Hebrew 666 transliteration, simply to describe the common fear of
          > a
          > > > genocide. Actually I take the crucified woman for an allegory, a
          > > > symbol of
          > > > description, rather for a literally to be taken fact. Not by
          > chance
          > > > the
          > > > murder by a woman was committed in the Empire by crushing the
          > head
          > > > with a
          > > > club (Val. Max. 7.1; Amb. 1). And we don't even deal with female
          > > > murder.
          > > > The Mishna or Josephus' bloomy anecdotes (Ant 12.256; 18.79ff.)
          > as
          > > > reliable
          > > > sources to understand history or a phenomenon at its periphery
          > is
          > > > somewhat
          > > > wide of the mark though, and thus to be rejected.
          > > > However, reading Martin Hengel_Crucifixion, Fortress Press 1977
          > > > would not be
          > > > amiss.
          > > >
          > > > regards,
          > > > Dierk van den Berg
          > > > RU Nijmegen, NL
          > > > -------------------------------------------
          > > > kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)
          > > >
          > > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > > From: "ANTONIO LOMBATTI" <antonio.lombatti@...>
          > > > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
          > > > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 11:14 PM
          > > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
          > > >
          > > > > These are the only two sources about women crucifixion that I
          > know
          > > > > of, apart from the Jewish ones quoted by Joe (Tractate Mourning
          > 2.11
          > > > > and Sanhedrin 6.5) in this article:
          > > > >
          > > > > http://www.centuryone.org/crucifixion2.html
          > > > >
          > > > > Antonio
          > > > > antonio lombatti
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Antonio Lombatti
          I ve found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National Archaeological Museum. Even if I m a bit doubtful about its interpretation, the
          Message 4 of 20 , May 9, 2007
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            I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National
            Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
            interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
            crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).

            I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person was
            hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
            been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the thesis
            that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
            by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
            abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
            principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
            l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).

            However, this might be the only representation of a hung (crucified?)
            woman that I'm aware of.

            I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at

            http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg

            Antonio Lombatti


            P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
            couple of days. (:-)




            Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:

            > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a woman
            > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
            > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
            >
            > Peter Miscall
            >
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Trudy Kawami
            Antonio, I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or whatever. It would
            Message 5 of 20 , May 10, 2007
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              Antonio,
              I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or whatever. It would be good to look at the original object before offering an interpretation. At best the style is 4th cent. BCE, not 5th. Where did you find the drawing? The woman looks like she is dancing, not being hung on a tree; there are baskets, clothes, jewlery and other figures (seated at rt?) so the section you posted does not give the whole scene.I doubtg whether the scene has anything to do with crucifixions.
              Trudy Kawami

              ________________________________

              From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Antonio Lombatti
              Sent: Wed 5/9/2007 12:12 PM
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion



              I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National
              Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
              interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
              crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).

              I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person was
              hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
              been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the thesis
              that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
              by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
              abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
              principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
              l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).

              However, this might be the only representation of a hung (crucified?)
              woman that I'm aware of.

              I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at

              http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg <http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg>

              Antonio Lombatti

              P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
              couple of days. (:-)

              Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:

              > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a woman
              > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
              > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
              >
              > Peter Miscall
              >
              >
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Antonio Lombatti
              Trudy, I have no expertise in ancient Art History, therefore I posted the image so that some of could judge it. Probably, it has nothing to do with
              Message 6 of 20 , May 11, 2007
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                Trudy,

                I have no expertise in ancient Art History, therefore I posted the
                image so that some of could judge it. Probably, it has nothing to do
                with crucifixion, as you suggested; however, I think that she (I mean
                the hung woman) should not be dancing with her wrists tied and
                completely naked.

                The picture is labelled and dated as I wrote in my previous post.
                However, I have lots of doubts about it. I've seen it in an Italian
                paper on death penalties in Antiquity and as for the above image it
                says it comes from M. Torelli _Etruria. Guida Archeologica_. Roma:
                Laterza, 1993.

                There are two more interesting photos (even if they don't refer to
                women crucifixion):

                http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/6908/cruxpl5.jpg


                1. (Above) Bas-relief of the Palace of Sennacherib at Niniveh
                depicting the taking of Lachish (701/689-688); it showa two men
                "crucified" on boards and flayed.
                2. (Below) Assyrian crucifixion by means of nails and rings


                Comments and suggestions are all welcome, since I'm finishing a paper
                on crucifixion.

                Antonio Lombatti


                Il giorno 11/mag/07, alle ore 04:36, Trudy Kawami ha scritto:

                > Antonio,
                > I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing
                > after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or
                > whatever. It would be good to look at the original object before
                > offering an interpretation. At best the style is 4th cent. BCE, not
                > 5th. Where did you find the drawing? The woman looks like she is
                > dancing, not being hung on a tree; there are baskets, clothes,
                > jewlery and other figures (seated at rt?) so the section you posted
                > does not give the whole scene.I doubtg whether the scene has
                > anything to do with crucifixions.
                > Trudy Kawami
                >
                > ________________________________
                >
                > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Antonio Lombatti
                > Sent: Wed 5/9/2007 12:12 PM
                > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
                >
                > I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National
                > Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
                > interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
                > crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).
                >
                > I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person was
                > hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
                > been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the thesis
                > that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
                > by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
                > abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
                > principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
                > l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).
                >
                > However, this might be the only representation of a hung (crucified?)
                > woman that I'm aware of.
                >
                > I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at
                >
                > http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg<http://
                > img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg>
                >
                > Antonio Lombatti
                >
                > P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
                > couple of days. (:-)
                >
                > Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:
                >
                > > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a
                > woman
                > > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
                > > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
                > >
                > > Peter Miscall
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • sbudin@camden.rutgers.edu
                The naked dancer, plus the box, alabastron, etc. seems more reminiscent of initiation into the mysteries (of Dionysos?) than crucifixion. A rather late
                Message 7 of 20 , May 11, 2007
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                  The naked dancer, plus the box, alabastron, etc. seems more reminiscent of
                  initiation into the mysteries (of Dionysos?) than crucifixion. A rather late
                  comparandum would be the Villa of the Mysteries at Pompeii. Here there is at
                  least one mostly naked girl being whipped, and a naked female dancer with
                  cistra.
                  Perhaps this is a religious scene?

                  -Stephanie Budin



                  Quoting Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...>:

                  > Trudy,
                  >
                  > I have no expertise in ancient Art History, therefore I posted the
                  > image so that some of could judge it. Probably, it has nothing to do
                  > with crucifixion, as you suggested; however, I think that she (I mean
                  > the hung woman) should not be dancing with her wrists tied and
                  > completely naked.
                  >
                  > The picture is labelled and dated as I wrote in my previous post.
                  > However, I have lots of doubts about it. I've seen it in an Italian
                  > paper on death penalties in Antiquity and as for the above image it
                  > says it comes from M. Torelli _Etruria. Guida Archeologica_. Roma:
                  > Laterza, 1993.
                  >
                  > There are two more interesting photos (even if they don't refer to
                  > women crucifixion):
                  >
                  > http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/6908/cruxpl5.jpg
                  >
                  >
                  > 1. (Above) Bas-relief of the Palace of Sennacherib at Niniveh
                  > depicting the taking of Lachish (701/689-688); it showa two men
                  > "crucified" on boards and flayed.
                  > 2. (Below) Assyrian crucifixion by means of nails and rings
                  >
                  >
                  > Comments and suggestions are all welcome, since I'm finishing a paper
                  > on crucifixion.
                  >
                  > Antonio Lombatti
                  >
                  >
                  > Il giorno 11/mag/07, alle ore 04:36, Trudy Kawami ha scritto:
                  >
                  > > Antonio,
                  > > I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing
                  > > after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or
                  > > whatever. It would be good to look at the original object before
                  > > offering an interpretation. At best the style is 4th cent. BCE, not
                  > > 5th. Where did you find the drawing? The woman looks like she is
                  > > dancing, not being hung on a tree; there are baskets, clothes,
                  > > jewlery and other figures (seated at rt?) so the section you posted
                  > > does not give the whole scene.I doubtg whether the scene has
                  > > anything to do with crucifixions.
                  > > Trudy Kawami
                  > >
                  > > ________________________________
                  > >
                  > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Antonio Lombatti
                  > > Sent: Wed 5/9/2007 12:12 PM
                  > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
                  > >
                  > > I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National
                  > > Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
                  > > interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
                  > > crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).
                  > >
                  > > I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person was
                  > > hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
                  > > been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the thesis
                  > > that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
                  > > by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
                  > > abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
                  > > principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
                  > > l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).
                  > >
                  > > However, this might be the only representation of a hung (crucified?)
                  > > woman that I'm aware of.
                  > >
                  > > I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at
                  > >
                  > > http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg<http://
                  > > img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg>
                  > >
                  > > Antonio Lombatti
                  > >
                  > > P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
                  > > couple of days. (:-)
                  > >
                  > > Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:
                  > >
                  > > > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a
                  > > woman
                  > > > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
                  > > > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
                  > > >
                  > > > Peter Miscall
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  "Maybe we can link up with someone who’s meditating and download enlightenment!"
                  -Tachikoma
                • nick smith
                  The two pics shown dipict the Assyrian king Ansasurpal (appologies for the spelling) flaying POWs after campaining in northen Mesopotamia.The POWs are soldiers
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 12, 2007
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                    The two pics shown dipict the Assyrian king Ansasurpal (appologies for the spelling) flaying POWs after campaining in northen Mesopotamia.The POWs are soldiers being flayed in front of their children.I'll try find a clearer reference forb the image and post,but these images also have nothing to do with crucifixion.

                    Hope this helps,

                    Nick Smith

                    Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...> wrote:
                    Trudy,

                    I have no expertise in ancient Art History, therefore I posted the
                    image so that some of could judge it. Probably, it has nothing to do
                    with crucifixion, as you suggested; however, I think that she (I mean
                    the hung woman) should not be dancing with her wrists tied and
                    completely naked.

                    The picture is labelled and dated as I wrote in my previous post.
                    However, I have lots of doubts about it. I've seen it in an Italian
                    paper on death penalties in Antiquity and as for the above image it
                    says it comes from M. Torelli _Etruria. Guida Archeologica_. Roma:
                    Laterza, 1993.

                    There are two more interesting photos (even if they don't refer to
                    women crucifixion):

                    http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/6908/cruxpl5.jpg

                    1. (Above) Bas-relief of the Palace of Sennacherib at Niniveh
                    depicting the taking of Lachish (701/689-688); it showa two men
                    "crucified" on boards and flayed.
                    2. (Below) Assyrian crucifixion by means of nails and rings

                    Comments and suggestions are all welcome, since I'm finishing a paper
                    on crucifixion.

                    Antonio Lombatti

                    Il giorno 11/mag/07, alle ore 04:36, Trudy Kawami ha scritto:

                    > Antonio,
                    > I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing
                    > after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or
                    > whatever. It would be good to look at the original object before
                    > offering an interpretation. At best the style is 4th cent. BCE, not
                    > 5th. Where did you find the drawing? The woman looks like she is
                    > dancing, not being hung on a tree; there are baskets, clothes,
                    > jewlery and other figures (seated at rt?) so the section you posted
                    > does not give the whole scene.I doubtg whether the scene has
                    > anything to do with crucifixions.
                    > Trudy Kawami
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    >
                    > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Antonio Lombatti
                    > Sent: Wed 5/9/2007 12:12 PM
                    > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
                    >
                    > I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National
                    > Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
                    > interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
                    > crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).
                    >
                    > I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person was
                    > hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
                    > been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the thesis
                    > that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
                    > by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
                    > abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
                    > principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
                    > l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).
                    >
                    > However, this might be the only representation of a hung (crucified?)
                    > woman that I'm aware of.
                    >
                    > I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at
                    >
                    > http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg<http://
                    > img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg>
                    >
                    > Antonio Lombatti
                    >
                    > P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
                    > couple of days. (:-)
                    >
                    > Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:
                    >
                    > > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a
                    > woman
                    > > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
                    > > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
                    > >
                    > > Peter Miscall
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                    ---------------------------------
                    The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Antonio Lombatti
                    Nick, thanks for your opinion. Both images are listed as crucifixions by P. Vitale, _Crocifissione_. Phaidon: Roma, 2005, who quotes J.J. Collins,_Archaeology
                    Message 9 of 20 , May 12, 2007
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                      Nick,

                      thanks for your opinion. Both images are listed as crucifixions by P.
                      Vitale, _Crocifissione_. Phaidon: Roma, 2005, who quotes J.J.
                      Collins,_Archaeology of the Crucifixion_. in "Catholical Biblical
                      Quarterly", 1 (1939), p. 160. As I said I am not an art historian;
                      however, in the second drawing, one can clearly see nails through the
                      victim's wrists. Probably, there were nailed in order to flay them
                      better.

                      Antonio Lombatti



                      Il giorno 12/mag/07, alle ore 20:23, nick smith ha scritto:

                      > The two pics shown dipict the Assyrian king Ansasurpal (appologies
                      > for the spelling) flaying POWs after campaining in northen
                      > Mesopotamia.The POWs are soldiers being flayed in front of their
                      > children.I'll try find a clearer reference forb the image and
                      > post,but these images also have nothing to do with crucifixion.
                      >
                      > Hope this helps,
                      >
                      > Nick Smith
                      >
                      > Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...> wrote:
                      > Trudy,
                      >
                      > I have no expertise in ancient Art History, therefore I posted the
                      > image so that some of could judge it. Probably, it has nothing to do
                      > with crucifixion, as you suggested; however, I think that she (I mean
                      > the hung woman) should not be dancing with her wrists tied and
                      > completely naked.
                      >
                      > The picture is labelled and dated as I wrote in my previous post.
                      > However, I have lots of doubts about it. I've seen it in an Italian
                      > paper on death penalties in Antiquity and as for the above image it
                      > says it comes from M. Torelli _Etruria. Guida Archeologica_. Roma:
                      > Laterza, 1993.
                      >
                      > There are two more interesting photos (even if they don't refer to
                      > women crucifixion):
                      >
                      > http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/6908/cruxpl5.jpg
                      >
                      > 1. (Above) Bas-relief of the Palace of Sennacherib at Niniveh
                      > depicting the taking of Lachish (701/689-688); it showa two men
                      > "crucified" on boards and flayed.
                      > 2. (Below) Assyrian crucifixion by means of nails and rings
                      >
                      > Comments and suggestions are all welcome, since I'm finishing a paper
                      > on crucifixion.
                      >
                      > Antonio Lombatti
                      >
                      > Il giorno 11/mag/07, alle ore 04:36, Trudy Kawami ha scritto:
                      >
                      > > Antonio,
                      > > I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing
                      > > after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or
                      > > whatever. It would be good to look at the original object before
                      > > offering an interpretation. At best the style is 4th cent. BCE, not
                      > > 5th. Where did you find the drawing? The woman looks like she is
                      > > dancing, not being hung on a tree; there are baskets, clothes,
                      > > jewlery and other figures (seated at rt?) so the section you posted
                      > > does not give the whole scene.I doubtg whether the scene has
                      > > anything to do with crucifixions.
                      > > Trudy Kawami
                      > >
                      > > ________________________________
                      > >
                      > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Antonio Lombatti
                      > > Sent: Wed 5/9/2007 12:12 PM
                      > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
                      > >
                      > > I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina
                      > National
                      > > Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
                      > > interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
                      > > crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).
                      > >
                      > > I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person
                      > was
                      > > hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
                      > > been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the
                      > thesis
                      > > that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
                      > > by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
                      > > abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
                      > > principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
                      > > l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).
                      > >
                      > > However, this might be the only representation of a hung
                      > (crucified?)
                      > > woman that I'm aware of.
                      > >
                      > > I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at
                      > >
                      > > http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg<http://
                      > > img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg>
                      > >
                      > > Antonio Lombatti
                      > >
                      > > P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
                      > > couple of days. (:-)
                      > >
                      > > Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:
                      > >
                      > > > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a
                      > > woman
                      > > > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
                      > > > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
                      > > >
                      > > > Peter Miscall
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
                      > The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email
                      > address from your Internet provider.
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • leeedgartyler@cox.net
                      ... Hello, Antonio, That s quite likely true, as victims of extraordinarily painful executions were often nailed in place first, but I would not classify such
                      Message 10 of 20 , May 12, 2007
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                        ---- Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...> wrote:
                        > Nick,
                        >
                        > thanks for your opinion. Both images are listed as crucifixions by P.
                        > Vitale, _Crocifissione_. Phaidon: Roma, 2005, who quotes J.J.
                        > Collins,_Archaeology of the Crucifixion_. in "Catholical Biblical
                        > Quarterly", 1 (1939), p. 160. As I said I am not an art historian;
                        > however, in the second drawing, one can clearly see nails through the
                        > victim's wrists. Probably, there were nailed in order to flay them
                        > better.
                        >
                        > Antonio Lombatti
                        >

                        Hello, Antonio,

                        That's quite likely true, as victims of extraordinarily painful executions were often nailed in place first, but I would not classify such things as crucifixions. We're reliably informed by ancient sources that victims of burnings were often nailed to stakes, and pirates captured by the Imperial Japanese navies were nailed to the decks of their ships before being whipped to death. Obviously, these executions were not by crucifixion. As Nick notes, the executions depicted appear to be by flaying.

                        The salient feature of crucifixion is the nailing of the victim to a cross, after which gravity does its insidious work to kill him. (I've seen it said that they were sometimes tied to the cross, but have yet to find an ancient source to support this.) Executions by flaying, beating, or burning are another matter, even if nails were involved.

                        best,

                        Ed Tyler
                      • Antonio Lombatti
                        Ed, thanks for your observations. Since there s no agreement, I ll write that victims were nailed (not crucified) and then tortured. J. Fitzmyer and E. Puech
                        Message 11 of 20 , May 13, 2007
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                          Ed,

                          thanks for your observations. Since there's no agreement, I'll write
                          that victims were nailed (not crucified) and then tortured. J.
                          Fitzmyer and E. Puech thought that even the OT and qumranic TLH
                          referred to crucifixion even if the texts do not clearly say that
                          victims were nailed to a wooden beam (Deut. 21:22-23, 4QpNah and
                          11QTemple - J.M. Baumgarten,_Does TLH in the Temple Scroll Refer to
                          Crucifixion?_. in "Journal of Biblical Literature" 91 [1972], pp.
                          472-481 and E. Puech, _Notes sur 11Q et 4Q524. A propos de la
                          crucifixion dans le Rouleau et dans le Judaisme_. in "Revue de
                          Qumran" 69 [1997], pp. 109-124).

                          The verb "talah" appears 30 times in the OT and it seems to have a
                          variety of possible translations (at least in Italian): raise,
                          suspend an oject, hang from a scaffold, find oneself suspended with
                          the mind (F. Parente,_Talah 'al 'es: una norma di diritto penale
                          biblico_. in "Studi classici e orientali" 27 [1977], pp. 79-137). I
                          would include all death punishments by "hanging alive" as crucifixion
                          (even the Aramaic SLB, see J. Levy,_Woerterbuch ueber die Talmudim
                          und Midraschchim_. Harz: Berlin, 1924, 4. Band, p. 189 "SLB=kreuzigen").

                          So, considering that the images I've posted before could or could not
                          refer to crucifixion in the sense how today the verb is understood,
                          the first representations of crucifixions that we have today are two
                          Italian graffiti, one found near Rome (AD 250) and the other one in
                          Pozzuoli (AD 100), and an Egyptian amulet (AD 200):


                          Pozzuoli graffito
                          http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/6475/pozzuolihv3.jpg

                          Alexamenos worshipping his God (Jesus)
                          http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/6682/alexmx9.jpg

                          Egyptian amulet
                          http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7995/egittool1.jpg


                          Moreover, the Pozzuoli graffito is our earliest iconographic source
                          about crucifixion (I mean, nailed or tied to a wooden beam). On a T-
                          shaped cross ("crux commissa" or "crux humilis") is a victim depicted
                          from behind. There is no evidence of a "suppedeaneum". The victim is
                          not naked but was clothed with an animal skin (?) (also Tacitus wrote
                          of condemned men dressed in animal skins; _Annales_, 15,44; 2,13,1:
                          "Ferarum tergist contecti", "contectus umeros ferina pelle").
                          Perhaps, this was done to attract te animals freed in the circus and
                          thus end up torn pieces as described in the mime of the _Laureolus_
                          (see Martial's _Spect._ 7 on Latin crucifixion shows).

                          As for the Pozzuoli crucifixion graffito, there are two different
                          interpretations. A. Maiuri says it depicts Jesus (_La Campania al
                          tempo dell'approdo di S. Paolo_. in "Studi Romani", 6 [1961], p.
                          135), while M. Guarducci is of the opinion that it represents a slave
                          woman, as the figure has long hair and wearing a tunic (not an animal
                          skin). Moreover, she identified an inscription over the victim's
                          head: ALCIMILLA (_Iscrizioni greche e latine in una Taberna di
                          Pozzuoli_. _Acta of the Fifth Epigraphic Congress_. IPS: Roma, 1967,
                          pp. 219-223).



                          Antonio Lombatti


                          Il giorno 13/mag/07, alle ore 01:53, leeedgartyler@... ha scritto:

                          >
                          > ---- Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...> wrote:
                          > > Nick,
                          > >
                          > > thanks for your opinion. Both images are listed as crucifixions
                          > by P.
                          > > Vitale, _Crocifissione_. Phaidon: Roma, 2005, who quotes J.J.
                          > > Collins,_Archaeology of the Crucifixion_. in "Catholical Biblical
                          > > Quarterly", 1 (1939), p. 160. As I said I am not an art historian;
                          > > however, in the second drawing, one can clearly see nails through
                          > the
                          > > victim's wrists. Probably, there were nailed in order to flay them
                          > > better.
                          > >
                          > > Antonio Lombatti
                          > >
                          >
                          > Hello, Antonio,
                          >
                          > That's quite likely true, as victims of extraordinarily painful
                          > executions were often nailed in place first, but I would not
                          > classify such things as crucifixions. We're reliably informed by
                          > ancient sources that victims of burnings were often nailed to
                          > stakes, and pirates captured by the Imperial Japanese navies were
                          > nailed to the decks of their ships before being whipped to death.
                          > Obviously, these executions were not by crucifixion. As Nick notes,
                          > the executions depicted appear to be by flaying.
                          >
                          > The salient feature of crucifixion is the nailing of the victim to
                          > a cross, after which gravity does its insidious work to kill him.
                          > (I've seen it said that they were sometimes tied to the cross, but
                          > have yet to find an ancient source to support this.) Executions by
                          > flaying, beating, or burning are another matter, even if nails were
                          > involved.
                          >
                          > best,
                          >
                          > Ed Tyler
                          >
                          >



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