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Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion

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  • Joe Zias
    Shalom, I m still aboad so you handling of this is greatly appreciated. Joe ANTONIO LOMBATTI wrote: These are the only two sources
    Message 1 of 20 , May 1, 2007
      Shalom, I'm still aboad so you handling of this is greatly appreciated.
      Joe

      ANTONIO LOMBATTI <antonio.lombatti@...> wrote:
      These are the only two sources about women crucifixion that I know
      of, apart from the Jewish ones quoted by Joe (Tractate Mourning 2.11
      and Sanhedrin 6.5) in this article:

      http://www.centuryone.org/crucifixion2.html

      Antonio
      antonio lombatti

      Il giorno 30/apr/07, alle ore 21:57, Dierk van den Berg ha scritto:

      > Actually I've thought of Republican and early Imperial refs. linked
      > to the
      > Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis, and not of Julius Paulus' De
      > vaticinatoribus
      > et mathematicis in Sententiarum 5.21 (late 2nd c. CE) or the
      > Antiochos IV
      > anecdote in Jos Ant 12.256 that dals with the atrocity of the
      > Seleucid King
      > in
      > the aftermath of the Days of Eleusis.
      > However, thanks.
      >
      > Dierk van den Berg
      > RU Nijmegen, NL
      > -------------------------------------------
      > kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Antonio Lombatti" <antonio.lombatti@...>
      > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 7:35 PM
      > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
      >
      > > Maybe Joe has some other authors to quote...
      > >
      > > However, our best sourse is Flavius Josephus (Ant. Jud. 12:256):
      > he tells
      > > us that women were crucified with their sons hanging about their
      > necks. A
      > > for Rome, I have counted at least 15 different sources that describe
      > > crucifixionand crucified people. Paulus (Sent. 5.21.3-4) recalls
      > the case
      > > of a woman being crucified with her face turned towards the wood
      > of the
      > > cross for having questioned an astologer about the future of the
      > emperor.
      > >
      > > Antonio Lombatti
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Dierk van den Berg
      The supplicium de more maiorum, the punishment in which the the accused was beaten to death with rods is the origin behind the later supplicium servile under
      Message 2 of 20 , May 3, 2007
        The supplicium de more maiorum, the punishment in which the the accused was
        beaten to death with rods is the origin behind the later supplicium servile
        under constitutional law, infelici arbori reste suspendito, mechanism of
        execution based upon the Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis (BC 82),
        commonly known from the Spartacus uprising. Crucifixion as an instrument of
        bilateral terror is first known from the Three Punic Wars, and we see a
        Roman adoption of Carthaginian handling of treachery, first exercised by
        Scipio who crucified the Roman perfugae after the fall of Carthage.
        Apparently during the wars the Roman propaganda had created the stigma of
        the Roman woman crucified together with her babies, probably an allegory of
        the Roman lupa and Romulus and Remus, reflecting the status quo of a Roman
        state under heavy pressure. However, Josephus (resp. his source) has used
        this stigma of foreign terror to describe the situation in Jerusalem when
        the Jews first came into contact with the brutality of ex-Ptolemaic
        Macedonian/Kittim/Cyriote mercenaries of the Seleucid King on his return
        from the failed expedition to Egypt in 168/7 BC. It is sufficiently known
        from history that a mortified (or beaten) army on the retreat is by far more
        brutal against NOCs than a victorious one on the advance. And as a classical
        sign of experienced brutality directed against the substance of a people I'd
        expect the allegory of the crucified woman (esp. of a pregnant one or mother
        of babies) again in the days of the Nero-redivivus Domitian, btw. the minted
        Hebrew 666 transliteration, simply to describe the common fear of a
        genocide. Actually I take the crucified woman for an allegory, a symbol of
        description, rather for a literally to be taken fact. Not by chance the
        murder by a woman was committed in the Empire by crushing the head with a
        club (Val. Max. 7.1; Amb. 1). And we don't even deal with female murder.
        The Mishna or Josephus' bloomy anecdotes (Ant 12.256; 18.79ff.) as reliable
        sources to understand history or a phenomenon at its periphery is somewhat
        wide of the mark though, and thus to be rejected.
        However, reading Martin Hengel_Crucifixion, Fortress Press 1977 would not be
        amiss.

        regards,
        Dierk van den Berg
        RU Nijmegen, NL
        -------------------------------------------
        kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)



        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "ANTONIO LOMBATTI" <antonio.lombatti@...>
        To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 11:14 PM
        Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion


        > These are the only two sources about women crucifixion that I know
        > of, apart from the Jewish ones quoted by Joe (Tractate Mourning 2.11
        > and Sanhedrin 6.5) in this article:
        >
        > http://www.centuryone.org/crucifixion2.html
        >
        > Antonio
        > antonio lombatti
      • Antonio Lombatti
        Despite the wrong belief that after Constantine crucifixion was not longer used as death punishment (the Christian world during Middle Ages still practiced
        Message 3 of 20 , May 3, 2007
          Despite the wrong belief that after Constantine crucifixion was not
          longer used as death punishment (the Christian world during Middle
          Ages still practiced crucifixion, see ALBERTUS MAGNUS,_Super
          Matthaeum_, V, 22), I've found many Palestinians crucified people by
          Christians and two more late sources about women crucified by Arabs
          in the VIIth century.

          A Nestorian monk tells in his _Chronicon anonymum_ (Corpus Scriptorum
          Christianorum Orientalium [CSCO], vol. 1, 1, p. 34) that in the
          Manichean village of Shatru even the women were crucified (zqaph).
          And John of Ephesus (Eccl. Hist. III, 19, CSCO, vol. 105, p. 146)
          recalls the crucifixion (zqipho') of Monophiste nuns.

          And, beside the work of Hengel, a masterpiece about crucifixion has
          been written by J.A. FITZMYER, _Crucifixion in Ancient Palestine,
          Qumran Literature and the New Testament_, "Catholical Biblical
          Quarterly", 40 (1978), pp. 493-513, even if he doesn't report cases
          of crucified women.

          Antonio






          Il giorno 03/mag/07, alle ore 16:39, Dierk van den Berg ha scritto:

          > The supplicium de more maiorum, the punishment in which the the
          > accused was
          > beaten to death with rods is the origin behind the later supplicium
          > servile
          > under constitutional law, infelici arbori reste suspendito,
          > mechanism of
          > execution based upon the Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis (BC 82),
          > commonly known from the Spartacus uprising. Crucifixion as an
          > instrument of
          > bilateral terror is first known from the Three Punic Wars, and we
          > see a
          > Roman adoption of Carthaginian handling of treachery, first
          > exercised by
          > Scipio who crucified the Roman perfugae after the fall of Carthage.
          > Apparently during the wars the Roman propaganda had created the
          > stigma of
          > the Roman woman crucified together with her babies, probably an
          > allegory of
          > the Roman lupa and Romulus and Remus, reflecting the status quo of
          > a Roman
          > state under heavy pressure. However, Josephus (resp. his source)
          > has used
          > this stigma of foreign terror to describe the situation in
          > Jerusalem when
          > the Jews first came into contact with the brutality of ex-Ptolemaic
          > Macedonian/Kittim/Cyriote mercenaries of the Seleucid King on his
          > return
          > from the failed expedition to Egypt in 168/7 BC. It is sufficiently
          > known
          > from history that a mortified (or beaten) army on the retreat is by
          > far more
          > brutal against NOCs than a victorious one on the advance. And as a
          > classical
          > sign of experienced brutality directed against the substance of a
          > people I'd
          > expect the allegory of the crucified woman (esp. of a pregnant one
          > or mother
          > of babies) again in the days of the Nero-redivivus Domitian, btw.
          > the minted
          > Hebrew 666 transliteration, simply to describe the common fear of a
          > genocide. Actually I take the crucified woman for an allegory, a
          > symbol of
          > description, rather for a literally to be taken fact. Not by chance
          > the
          > murder by a woman was committed in the Empire by crushing the head
          > with a
          > club (Val. Max. 7.1; Amb. 1). And we don't even deal with female
          > murder.
          > The Mishna or Josephus' bloomy anecdotes (Ant 12.256; 18.79ff.) as
          > reliable
          > sources to understand history or a phenomenon at its periphery is
          > somewhat
          > wide of the mark though, and thus to be rejected.
          > However, reading Martin Hengel_Crucifixion, Fortress Press 1977
          > would not be
          > amiss.
          >
          > regards,
          > Dierk van den Berg
          > RU Nijmegen, NL
          > -------------------------------------------
          > kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "ANTONIO LOMBATTI" <antonio.lombatti@...>
          > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 11:14 PM
          > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
          >
          > > These are the only two sources about women crucifixion that I know
          > > of, apart from the Jewish ones quoted by Joe (Tractate Mourning 2.11
          > > and Sanhedrin 6.5) in this article:
          > >
          > > http://www.centuryone.org/crucifixion2.html
          > >
          > > Antonio
          > > antonio lombatti
          >
          >
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Dierk van den Berg
          Antonio, we simply have to distinguish between antiquity and medieval times not to draw misleading conclusions (e.g. the crucified Sophia ) from events of the
          Message 4 of 20 , May 3, 2007
            Antonio,
            we simply have to distinguish between antiquity and medieval times
            not to draw misleading conclusions (e.g. 'the crucified Sophia') from
            events of the Dark Ages. And thanks for the ref. to Fitzmyer.

            regards,
            Dierk van den Berg
            RU Nijmegen, NL
            -------------------------------------------
            kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)



            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Despite the wrong belief that after Constantine crucifixion was
            not
            > longer used as death punishment (the Christian world during Middle
            > Ages still practiced crucifixion, see ALBERTUS MAGNUS,_Super
            > Matthaeum_, V, 22), I've found many Palestinians crucified people
            by
            > Christians and two more late sources about women crucified by
            Arabs
            > in the VIIth century.
            >
            > A Nestorian monk tells in his _Chronicon anonymum_ (Corpus
            Scriptorum
            > Christianorum Orientalium [CSCO], vol. 1, 1, p. 34) that in the
            > Manichean village of Shatru even the women were crucified (zqaph).
            > And John of Ephesus (Eccl. Hist. III, 19, CSCO, vol. 105, p. 146)
            > recalls the crucifixion (zqipho') of Monophiste nuns.
            >
            > And, beside the work of Hengel, a masterpiece about crucifixion
            has
            > been written by J.A. FITZMYER, _Crucifixion in Ancient Palestine,
            > Qumran Literature and the New Testament_, "Catholical Biblical
            > Quarterly", 40 (1978), pp. 493-513, even if he doesn't report
            cases
            > of crucified women.
            >
            > Antonio
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Il giorno 03/mag/07, alle ore 16:39, Dierk van den Berg ha scritto:
            >
            > > The supplicium de more maiorum, the punishment in which the the
            > > accused was
            > > beaten to death with rods is the origin behind the later
            supplicium
            > > servile
            > > under constitutional law, infelici arbori reste suspendito,
            > > mechanism of
            > > execution based upon the Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis (BC
            82),
            > > commonly known from the Spartacus uprising. Crucifixion as an
            > > instrument of
            > > bilateral terror is first known from the Three Punic Wars, and
            we
            > > see a
            > > Roman adoption of Carthaginian handling of treachery, first
            > > exercised by
            > > Scipio who crucified the Roman perfugae after the fall of
            Carthage.
            > > Apparently during the wars the Roman propaganda had created the
            > > stigma of
            > > the Roman woman crucified together with her babies, probably an
            > > allegory of
            > > the Roman lupa and Romulus and Remus, reflecting the status quo
            of
            > > a Roman
            > > state under heavy pressure. However, Josephus (resp. his source)
            > > has used
            > > this stigma of foreign terror to describe the situation in
            > > Jerusalem when
            > > the Jews first came into contact with the brutality of ex-
            Ptolemaic
            > > Macedonian/Kittim/Cyriote mercenaries of the Seleucid King on
            his
            > > return
            > > from the failed expedition to Egypt in 168/7 BC. It is
            sufficiently
            > > known
            > > from history that a mortified (or beaten) army on the retreat is
            by
            > > far more
            > > brutal against NOCs than a victorious one on the advance. And as
            a
            > > classical
            > > sign of experienced brutality directed against the substance of
            a
            > > people I'd
            > > expect the allegory of the crucified woman (esp. of a pregnant
            one
            > > or mother
            > > of babies) again in the days of the Nero-redivivus Domitian,
            btw.
            > > the minted
            > > Hebrew 666 transliteration, simply to describe the common fear of
            a
            > > genocide. Actually I take the crucified woman for an allegory, a
            > > symbol of
            > > description, rather for a literally to be taken fact. Not by
            chance
            > > the
            > > murder by a woman was committed in the Empire by crushing the
            head
            > > with a
            > > club (Val. Max. 7.1; Amb. 1). And we don't even deal with female
            > > murder.
            > > The Mishna or Josephus' bloomy anecdotes (Ant 12.256; 18.79ff.)
            as
            > > reliable
            > > sources to understand history or a phenomenon at its periphery
            is
            > > somewhat
            > > wide of the mark though, and thus to be rejected.
            > > However, reading Martin Hengel_Crucifixion, Fortress Press 1977
            > > would not be
            > > amiss.
            > >
            > > regards,
            > > Dierk van den Berg
            > > RU Nijmegen, NL
            > > -------------------------------------------
            > > kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)
            > >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: "ANTONIO LOMBATTI" <antonio.lombatti@...>
            > > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
            > > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 11:14 PM
            > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
            > >
            > > > These are the only two sources about women crucifixion that I
            know
            > > > of, apart from the Jewish ones quoted by Joe (Tractate Mourning
            2.11
            > > > and Sanhedrin 6.5) in this article:
            > > >
            > > > http://www.centuryone.org/crucifixion2.html
            > > >
            > > > Antonio
            > > > antonio lombatti
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Antonio Lombatti
            Sorry, you re right. I ve only searched for sources about crucified women. And this had lead me to AD 600. Best regards, Antonio ... [Non-text portions of this
            Message 5 of 20 , May 3, 2007
              Sorry, you're right. I've only searched for sources about crucified
              women. And this had lead me to AD 600.

              Best regards,
              Antonio



              Il giorno 03/mag/07, alle ore 19:51, Dierk van den Berg ha scritto:

              > Antonio,
              > we simply have to distinguish between antiquity and medieval times
              > not to draw misleading conclusions (e.g. 'the crucified Sophia') from
              > events of the Dark Ages. And thanks for the ref. to Fitzmyer.
              >
              > regards,
              > Dierk van den Berg
              > RU Nijmegen, NL
              > -------------------------------------------
              > kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)
              >
              > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > Despite the wrong belief that after Constantine crucifixion was
              > not
              > > longer used as death punishment (the Christian world during Middle
              > > Ages still practiced crucifixion, see ALBERTUS MAGNUS,_Super
              > > Matthaeum_, V, 22), I've found many Palestinians crucified people
              > by
              > > Christians and two more late sources about women crucified by
              > Arabs
              > > in the VIIth century.
              > >
              > > A Nestorian monk tells in his _Chronicon anonymum_ (Corpus
              > Scriptorum
              > > Christianorum Orientalium [CSCO], vol. 1, 1, p. 34) that in the
              > > Manichean village of Shatru even the women were crucified (zqaph).
              > > And John of Ephesus (Eccl. Hist. III, 19, CSCO, vol. 105, p. 146)
              > > recalls the crucifixion (zqipho') of Monophiste nuns.
              > >
              > > And, beside the work of Hengel, a masterpiece about crucifixion
              > has
              > > been written by J.A. FITZMYER, _Crucifixion in Ancient Palestine,
              > > Qumran Literature and the New Testament_, "Catholical Biblical
              > > Quarterly", 40 (1978), pp. 493-513, even if he doesn't report
              > cases
              > > of crucified women.
              > >
              > > Antonio
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Il giorno 03/mag/07, alle ore 16:39, Dierk van den Berg ha scritto:
              > >
              > > > The supplicium de more maiorum, the punishment in which the the
              > > > accused was
              > > > beaten to death with rods is the origin behind the later
              > supplicium
              > > > servile
              > > > under constitutional law, infelici arbori reste suspendito,
              > > > mechanism of
              > > > execution based upon the Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis (BC
              > 82),
              > > > commonly known from the Spartacus uprising. Crucifixion as an
              > > > instrument of
              > > > bilateral terror is first known from the Three Punic Wars, and
              > we
              > > > see a
              > > > Roman adoption of Carthaginian handling of treachery, first
              > > > exercised by
              > > > Scipio who crucified the Roman perfugae after the fall of
              > Carthage.
              > > > Apparently during the wars the Roman propaganda had created the
              > > > stigma of
              > > > the Roman woman crucified together with her babies, probably an
              > > > allegory of
              > > > the Roman lupa and Romulus and Remus, reflecting the status quo
              > of
              > > > a Roman
              > > > state under heavy pressure. However, Josephus (resp. his source)
              > > > has used
              > > > this stigma of foreign terror to describe the situation in
              > > > Jerusalem when
              > > > the Jews first came into contact with the brutality of ex-
              > Ptolemaic
              > > > Macedonian/Kittim/Cyriote mercenaries of the Seleucid King on
              > his
              > > > return
              > > > from the failed expedition to Egypt in 168/7 BC. It is
              > sufficiently
              > > > known
              > > > from history that a mortified (or beaten) army on the retreat is
              > by
              > > > far more
              > > > brutal against NOCs than a victorious one on the advance. And as
              > a
              > > > classical
              > > > sign of experienced brutality directed against the substance of
              > a
              > > > people I'd
              > > > expect the allegory of the crucified woman (esp. of a pregnant
              > one
              > > > or mother
              > > > of babies) again in the days of the Nero-redivivus Domitian,
              > btw.
              > > > the minted
              > > > Hebrew 666 transliteration, simply to describe the common fear of
              > a
              > > > genocide. Actually I take the crucified woman for an allegory, a
              > > > symbol of
              > > > description, rather for a literally to be taken fact. Not by
              > chance
              > > > the
              > > > murder by a woman was committed in the Empire by crushing the
              > head
              > > > with a
              > > > club (Val. Max. 7.1; Amb. 1). And we don't even deal with female
              > > > murder.
              > > > The Mishna or Josephus' bloomy anecdotes (Ant 12.256; 18.79ff.)
              > as
              > > > reliable
              > > > sources to understand history or a phenomenon at its periphery
              > is
              > > > somewhat
              > > > wide of the mark though, and thus to be rejected.
              > > > However, reading Martin Hengel_Crucifixion, Fortress Press 1977
              > > > would not be
              > > > amiss.
              > > >
              > > > regards,
              > > > Dierk van den Berg
              > > > RU Nijmegen, NL
              > > > -------------------------------------------
              > > > kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)
              > > >
              > > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > > From: "ANTONIO LOMBATTI" <antonio.lombatti@...>
              > > > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
              > > > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 11:14 PM
              > > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
              > > >
              > > > > These are the only two sources about women crucifixion that I
              > know
              > > > > of, apart from the Jewish ones quoted by Joe (Tractate Mourning
              > 2.11
              > > > > and Sanhedrin 6.5) in this article:
              > > > >
              > > > > http://www.centuryone.org/crucifixion2.html
              > > > >
              > > > > Antonio
              > > > > antonio lombatti
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              >
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Antonio Lombatti
              I ve found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National Archaeological Museum. Even if I m a bit doubtful about its interpretation, the
              Message 6 of 20 , May 9, 2007
                I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National
                Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
                interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
                crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).

                I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person was
                hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
                been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the thesis
                that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
                by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
                abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
                principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
                l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).

                However, this might be the only representation of a hung (crucified?)
                woman that I'm aware of.

                I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at

                http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg

                Antonio Lombatti


                P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
                couple of days. (:-)




                Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:

                > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a woman
                > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
                > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
                >
                > Peter Miscall
                >
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Trudy Kawami
                Antonio, I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or whatever. It would
                Message 7 of 20 , May 10, 2007
                  Antonio,
                  I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or whatever. It would be good to look at the original object before offering an interpretation. At best the style is 4th cent. BCE, not 5th. Where did you find the drawing? The woman looks like she is dancing, not being hung on a tree; there are baskets, clothes, jewlery and other figures (seated at rt?) so the section you posted does not give the whole scene.I doubtg whether the scene has anything to do with crucifixions.
                  Trudy Kawami

                  ________________________________

                  From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Antonio Lombatti
                  Sent: Wed 5/9/2007 12:12 PM
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion



                  I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National
                  Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
                  interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
                  crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).

                  I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person was
                  hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
                  been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the thesis
                  that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
                  by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
                  abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
                  principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
                  l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).

                  However, this might be the only representation of a hung (crucified?)
                  woman that I'm aware of.

                  I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at

                  http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg <http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg>

                  Antonio Lombatti

                  P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
                  couple of days. (:-)

                  Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:

                  > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a woman
                  > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
                  > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
                  >
                  > Peter Miscall
                  >
                  >
                  >

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Antonio Lombatti
                  Trudy, I have no expertise in ancient Art History, therefore I posted the image so that some of could judge it. Probably, it has nothing to do with
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 11, 2007
                    Trudy,

                    I have no expertise in ancient Art History, therefore I posted the
                    image so that some of could judge it. Probably, it has nothing to do
                    with crucifixion, as you suggested; however, I think that she (I mean
                    the hung woman) should not be dancing with her wrists tied and
                    completely naked.

                    The picture is labelled and dated as I wrote in my previous post.
                    However, I have lots of doubts about it. I've seen it in an Italian
                    paper on death penalties in Antiquity and as for the above image it
                    says it comes from M. Torelli _Etruria. Guida Archeologica_. Roma:
                    Laterza, 1993.

                    There are two more interesting photos (even if they don't refer to
                    women crucifixion):

                    http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/6908/cruxpl5.jpg


                    1. (Above) Bas-relief of the Palace of Sennacherib at Niniveh
                    depicting the taking of Lachish (701/689-688); it showa two men
                    "crucified" on boards and flayed.
                    2. (Below) Assyrian crucifixion by means of nails and rings


                    Comments and suggestions are all welcome, since I'm finishing a paper
                    on crucifixion.

                    Antonio Lombatti


                    Il giorno 11/mag/07, alle ore 04:36, Trudy Kawami ha scritto:

                    > Antonio,
                    > I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing
                    > after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or
                    > whatever. It would be good to look at the original object before
                    > offering an interpretation. At best the style is 4th cent. BCE, not
                    > 5th. Where did you find the drawing? The woman looks like she is
                    > dancing, not being hung on a tree; there are baskets, clothes,
                    > jewlery and other figures (seated at rt?) so the section you posted
                    > does not give the whole scene.I doubtg whether the scene has
                    > anything to do with crucifixions.
                    > Trudy Kawami
                    >
                    > ________________________________
                    >
                    > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Antonio Lombatti
                    > Sent: Wed 5/9/2007 12:12 PM
                    > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
                    >
                    > I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National
                    > Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
                    > interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
                    > crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).
                    >
                    > I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person was
                    > hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
                    > been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the thesis
                    > that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
                    > by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
                    > abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
                    > principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
                    > l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).
                    >
                    > However, this might be the only representation of a hung (crucified?)
                    > woman that I'm aware of.
                    >
                    > I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at
                    >
                    > http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg<http://
                    > img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg>
                    >
                    > Antonio Lombatti
                    >
                    > P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
                    > couple of days. (:-)
                    >
                    > Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:
                    >
                    > > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a
                    > woman
                    > > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
                    > > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
                    > >
                    > > Peter Miscall
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • sbudin@camden.rutgers.edu
                    The naked dancer, plus the box, alabastron, etc. seems more reminiscent of initiation into the mysteries (of Dionysos?) than crucifixion. A rather late
                    Message 9 of 20 , May 11, 2007
                      The naked dancer, plus the box, alabastron, etc. seems more reminiscent of
                      initiation into the mysteries (of Dionysos?) than crucifixion. A rather late
                      comparandum would be the Villa of the Mysteries at Pompeii. Here there is at
                      least one mostly naked girl being whipped, and a naked female dancer with
                      cistra.
                      Perhaps this is a religious scene?

                      -Stephanie Budin



                      Quoting Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...>:

                      > Trudy,
                      >
                      > I have no expertise in ancient Art History, therefore I posted the
                      > image so that some of could judge it. Probably, it has nothing to do
                      > with crucifixion, as you suggested; however, I think that she (I mean
                      > the hung woman) should not be dancing with her wrists tied and
                      > completely naked.
                      >
                      > The picture is labelled and dated as I wrote in my previous post.
                      > However, I have lots of doubts about it. I've seen it in an Italian
                      > paper on death penalties in Antiquity and as for the above image it
                      > says it comes from M. Torelli _Etruria. Guida Archeologica_. Roma:
                      > Laterza, 1993.
                      >
                      > There are two more interesting photos (even if they don't refer to
                      > women crucifixion):
                      >
                      > http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/6908/cruxpl5.jpg
                      >
                      >
                      > 1. (Above) Bas-relief of the Palace of Sennacherib at Niniveh
                      > depicting the taking of Lachish (701/689-688); it showa two men
                      > "crucified" on boards and flayed.
                      > 2. (Below) Assyrian crucifixion by means of nails and rings
                      >
                      >
                      > Comments and suggestions are all welcome, since I'm finishing a paper
                      > on crucifixion.
                      >
                      > Antonio Lombatti
                      >
                      >
                      > Il giorno 11/mag/07, alle ore 04:36, Trudy Kawami ha scritto:
                      >
                      > > Antonio,
                      > > I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing
                      > > after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or
                      > > whatever. It would be good to look at the original object before
                      > > offering an interpretation. At best the style is 4th cent. BCE, not
                      > > 5th. Where did you find the drawing? The woman looks like she is
                      > > dancing, not being hung on a tree; there are baskets, clothes,
                      > > jewlery and other figures (seated at rt?) so the section you posted
                      > > does not give the whole scene.I doubtg whether the scene has
                      > > anything to do with crucifixions.
                      > > Trudy Kawami
                      > >
                      > > ________________________________
                      > >
                      > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Antonio Lombatti
                      > > Sent: Wed 5/9/2007 12:12 PM
                      > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
                      > >
                      > > I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National
                      > > Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
                      > > interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
                      > > crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).
                      > >
                      > > I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person was
                      > > hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
                      > > been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the thesis
                      > > that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
                      > > by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
                      > > abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
                      > > principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
                      > > l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).
                      > >
                      > > However, this might be the only representation of a hung (crucified?)
                      > > woman that I'm aware of.
                      > >
                      > > I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at
                      > >
                      > > http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg<http://
                      > > img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg>
                      > >
                      > > Antonio Lombatti
                      > >
                      > > P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
                      > > couple of days. (:-)
                      > >
                      > > Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:
                      > >
                      > > > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a
                      > > woman
                      > > > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
                      > > > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
                      > > >
                      > > > Peter Miscall
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      "Maybe we can link up with someone who’s meditating and download enlightenment!"
                      -Tachikoma
                    • nick smith
                      The two pics shown dipict the Assyrian king Ansasurpal (appologies for the spelling) flaying POWs after campaining in northen Mesopotamia.The POWs are soldiers
                      Message 10 of 20 , May 12, 2007
                        The two pics shown dipict the Assyrian king Ansasurpal (appologies for the spelling) flaying POWs after campaining in northen Mesopotamia.The POWs are soldiers being flayed in front of their children.I'll try find a clearer reference forb the image and post,but these images also have nothing to do with crucifixion.

                        Hope this helps,

                        Nick Smith

                        Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...> wrote:
                        Trudy,

                        I have no expertise in ancient Art History, therefore I posted the
                        image so that some of could judge it. Probably, it has nothing to do
                        with crucifixion, as you suggested; however, I think that she (I mean
                        the hung woman) should not be dancing with her wrists tied and
                        completely naked.

                        The picture is labelled and dated as I wrote in my previous post.
                        However, I have lots of doubts about it. I've seen it in an Italian
                        paper on death penalties in Antiquity and as for the above image it
                        says it comes from M. Torelli _Etruria. Guida Archeologica_. Roma:
                        Laterza, 1993.

                        There are two more interesting photos (even if they don't refer to
                        women crucifixion):

                        http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/6908/cruxpl5.jpg

                        1. (Above) Bas-relief of the Palace of Sennacherib at Niniveh
                        depicting the taking of Lachish (701/689-688); it showa two men
                        "crucified" on boards and flayed.
                        2. (Below) Assyrian crucifixion by means of nails and rings

                        Comments and suggestions are all welcome, since I'm finishing a paper
                        on crucifixion.

                        Antonio Lombatti

                        Il giorno 11/mag/07, alle ore 04:36, Trudy Kawami ha scritto:

                        > Antonio,
                        > I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing
                        > after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or
                        > whatever. It would be good to look at the original object before
                        > offering an interpretation. At best the style is 4th cent. BCE, not
                        > 5th. Where did you find the drawing? The woman looks like she is
                        > dancing, not being hung on a tree; there are baskets, clothes,
                        > jewlery and other figures (seated at rt?) so the section you posted
                        > does not give the whole scene.I doubtg whether the scene has
                        > anything to do with crucifixions.
                        > Trudy Kawami
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        >
                        > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Antonio Lombatti
                        > Sent: Wed 5/9/2007 12:12 PM
                        > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
                        >
                        > I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National
                        > Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
                        > interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
                        > crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).
                        >
                        > I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person was
                        > hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
                        > been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the thesis
                        > that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
                        > by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
                        > abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
                        > principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
                        > l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).
                        >
                        > However, this might be the only representation of a hung (crucified?)
                        > woman that I'm aware of.
                        >
                        > I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at
                        >
                        > http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg<http://
                        > img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg>
                        >
                        > Antonio Lombatti
                        >
                        > P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
                        > couple of days. (:-)
                        >
                        > Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:
                        >
                        > > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a
                        > woman
                        > > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
                        > > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
                        > >
                        > > Peter Miscall
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                        ---------------------------------
                        The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Antonio Lombatti
                        Nick, thanks for your opinion. Both images are listed as crucifixions by P. Vitale, _Crocifissione_. Phaidon: Roma, 2005, who quotes J.J. Collins,_Archaeology
                        Message 11 of 20 , May 12, 2007
                          Nick,

                          thanks for your opinion. Both images are listed as crucifixions by P.
                          Vitale, _Crocifissione_. Phaidon: Roma, 2005, who quotes J.J.
                          Collins,_Archaeology of the Crucifixion_. in "Catholical Biblical
                          Quarterly", 1 (1939), p. 160. As I said I am not an art historian;
                          however, in the second drawing, one can clearly see nails through the
                          victim's wrists. Probably, there were nailed in order to flay them
                          better.

                          Antonio Lombatti



                          Il giorno 12/mag/07, alle ore 20:23, nick smith ha scritto:

                          > The two pics shown dipict the Assyrian king Ansasurpal (appologies
                          > for the spelling) flaying POWs after campaining in northen
                          > Mesopotamia.The POWs are soldiers being flayed in front of their
                          > children.I'll try find a clearer reference forb the image and
                          > post,but these images also have nothing to do with crucifixion.
                          >
                          > Hope this helps,
                          >
                          > Nick Smith
                          >
                          > Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...> wrote:
                          > Trudy,
                          >
                          > I have no expertise in ancient Art History, therefore I posted the
                          > image so that some of could judge it. Probably, it has nothing to do
                          > with crucifixion, as you suggested; however, I think that she (I mean
                          > the hung woman) should not be dancing with her wrists tied and
                          > completely naked.
                          >
                          > The picture is labelled and dated as I wrote in my previous post.
                          > However, I have lots of doubts about it. I've seen it in an Italian
                          > paper on death penalties in Antiquity and as for the above image it
                          > says it comes from M. Torelli _Etruria. Guida Archeologica_. Roma:
                          > Laterza, 1993.
                          >
                          > There are two more interesting photos (even if they don't refer to
                          > women crucifixion):
                          >
                          > http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/6908/cruxpl5.jpg
                          >
                          > 1. (Above) Bas-relief of the Palace of Sennacherib at Niniveh
                          > depicting the taking of Lachish (701/689-688); it showa two men
                          > "crucified" on boards and flayed.
                          > 2. (Below) Assyrian crucifixion by means of nails and rings
                          >
                          > Comments and suggestions are all welcome, since I'm finishing a paper
                          > on crucifixion.
                          >
                          > Antonio Lombatti
                          >
                          > Il giorno 11/mag/07, alle ore 04:36, Trudy Kawami ha scritto:
                          >
                          > > Antonio,
                          > > I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing
                          > > after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or
                          > > whatever. It would be good to look at the original object before
                          > > offering an interpretation. At best the style is 4th cent. BCE, not
                          > > 5th. Where did you find the drawing? The woman looks like she is
                          > > dancing, not being hung on a tree; there are baskets, clothes,
                          > > jewlery and other figures (seated at rt?) so the section you posted
                          > > does not give the whole scene.I doubtg whether the scene has
                          > > anything to do with crucifixions.
                          > > Trudy Kawami
                          > >
                          > > ________________________________
                          > >
                          > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Antonio Lombatti
                          > > Sent: Wed 5/9/2007 12:12 PM
                          > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
                          > >
                          > > I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina
                          > National
                          > > Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
                          > > interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
                          > > crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).
                          > >
                          > > I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person
                          > was
                          > > hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
                          > > been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the
                          > thesis
                          > > that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
                          > > by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
                          > > abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
                          > > principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
                          > > l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).
                          > >
                          > > However, this might be the only representation of a hung
                          > (crucified?)
                          > > woman that I'm aware of.
                          > >
                          > > I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at
                          > >
                          > > http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg<http://
                          > > img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg>
                          > >
                          > > Antonio Lombatti
                          > >
                          > > P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
                          > > couple of days. (:-)
                          > >
                          > > Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:
                          > >
                          > > > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a
                          > > woman
                          > > > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
                          > > > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
                          > > >
                          > > > Peter Miscall
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
                          > The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email
                          > address from your Internet provider.
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • leeedgartyler@cox.net
                          ... Hello, Antonio, That s quite likely true, as victims of extraordinarily painful executions were often nailed in place first, but I would not classify such
                          Message 12 of 20 , May 12, 2007
                            ---- Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...> wrote:
                            > Nick,
                            >
                            > thanks for your opinion. Both images are listed as crucifixions by P.
                            > Vitale, _Crocifissione_. Phaidon: Roma, 2005, who quotes J.J.
                            > Collins,_Archaeology of the Crucifixion_. in "Catholical Biblical
                            > Quarterly", 1 (1939), p. 160. As I said I am not an art historian;
                            > however, in the second drawing, one can clearly see nails through the
                            > victim's wrists. Probably, there were nailed in order to flay them
                            > better.
                            >
                            > Antonio Lombatti
                            >

                            Hello, Antonio,

                            That's quite likely true, as victims of extraordinarily painful executions were often nailed in place first, but I would not classify such things as crucifixions. We're reliably informed by ancient sources that victims of burnings were often nailed to stakes, and pirates captured by the Imperial Japanese navies were nailed to the decks of their ships before being whipped to death. Obviously, these executions were not by crucifixion. As Nick notes, the executions depicted appear to be by flaying.

                            The salient feature of crucifixion is the nailing of the victim to a cross, after which gravity does its insidious work to kill him. (I've seen it said that they were sometimes tied to the cross, but have yet to find an ancient source to support this.) Executions by flaying, beating, or burning are another matter, even if nails were involved.

                            best,

                            Ed Tyler
                          • Antonio Lombatti
                            Ed, thanks for your observations. Since there s no agreement, I ll write that victims were nailed (not crucified) and then tortured. J. Fitzmyer and E. Puech
                            Message 13 of 20 , May 13, 2007
                              Ed,

                              thanks for your observations. Since there's no agreement, I'll write
                              that victims were nailed (not crucified) and then tortured. J.
                              Fitzmyer and E. Puech thought that even the OT and qumranic TLH
                              referred to crucifixion even if the texts do not clearly say that
                              victims were nailed to a wooden beam (Deut. 21:22-23, 4QpNah and
                              11QTemple - J.M. Baumgarten,_Does TLH in the Temple Scroll Refer to
                              Crucifixion?_. in "Journal of Biblical Literature" 91 [1972], pp.
                              472-481 and E. Puech, _Notes sur 11Q et 4Q524. A propos de la
                              crucifixion dans le Rouleau et dans le Judaisme_. in "Revue de
                              Qumran" 69 [1997], pp. 109-124).

                              The verb "talah" appears 30 times in the OT and it seems to have a
                              variety of possible translations (at least in Italian): raise,
                              suspend an oject, hang from a scaffold, find oneself suspended with
                              the mind (F. Parente,_Talah 'al 'es: una norma di diritto penale
                              biblico_. in "Studi classici e orientali" 27 [1977], pp. 79-137). I
                              would include all death punishments by "hanging alive" as crucifixion
                              (even the Aramaic SLB, see J. Levy,_Woerterbuch ueber die Talmudim
                              und Midraschchim_. Harz: Berlin, 1924, 4. Band, p. 189 "SLB=kreuzigen").

                              So, considering that the images I've posted before could or could not
                              refer to crucifixion in the sense how today the verb is understood,
                              the first representations of crucifixions that we have today are two
                              Italian graffiti, one found near Rome (AD 250) and the other one in
                              Pozzuoli (AD 100), and an Egyptian amulet (AD 200):


                              Pozzuoli graffito
                              http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/6475/pozzuolihv3.jpg

                              Alexamenos worshipping his God (Jesus)
                              http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/6682/alexmx9.jpg

                              Egyptian amulet
                              http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7995/egittool1.jpg


                              Moreover, the Pozzuoli graffito is our earliest iconographic source
                              about crucifixion (I mean, nailed or tied to a wooden beam). On a T-
                              shaped cross ("crux commissa" or "crux humilis") is a victim depicted
                              from behind. There is no evidence of a "suppedeaneum". The victim is
                              not naked but was clothed with an animal skin (?) (also Tacitus wrote
                              of condemned men dressed in animal skins; _Annales_, 15,44; 2,13,1:
                              "Ferarum tergist contecti", "contectus umeros ferina pelle").
                              Perhaps, this was done to attract te animals freed in the circus and
                              thus end up torn pieces as described in the mime of the _Laureolus_
                              (see Martial's _Spect._ 7 on Latin crucifixion shows).

                              As for the Pozzuoli crucifixion graffito, there are two different
                              interpretations. A. Maiuri says it depicts Jesus (_La Campania al
                              tempo dell'approdo di S. Paolo_. in "Studi Romani", 6 [1961], p.
                              135), while M. Guarducci is of the opinion that it represents a slave
                              woman, as the figure has long hair and wearing a tunic (not an animal
                              skin). Moreover, she identified an inscription over the victim's
                              head: ALCIMILLA (_Iscrizioni greche e latine in una Taberna di
                              Pozzuoli_. _Acta of the Fifth Epigraphic Congress_. IPS: Roma, 1967,
                              pp. 219-223).



                              Antonio Lombatti


                              Il giorno 13/mag/07, alle ore 01:53, leeedgartyler@... ha scritto:

                              >
                              > ---- Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...> wrote:
                              > > Nick,
                              > >
                              > > thanks for your opinion. Both images are listed as crucifixions
                              > by P.
                              > > Vitale, _Crocifissione_. Phaidon: Roma, 2005, who quotes J.J.
                              > > Collins,_Archaeology of the Crucifixion_. in "Catholical Biblical
                              > > Quarterly", 1 (1939), p. 160. As I said I am not an art historian;
                              > > however, in the second drawing, one can clearly see nails through
                              > the
                              > > victim's wrists. Probably, there were nailed in order to flay them
                              > > better.
                              > >
                              > > Antonio Lombatti
                              > >
                              >
                              > Hello, Antonio,
                              >
                              > That's quite likely true, as victims of extraordinarily painful
                              > executions were often nailed in place first, but I would not
                              > classify such things as crucifixions. We're reliably informed by
                              > ancient sources that victims of burnings were often nailed to
                              > stakes, and pirates captured by the Imperial Japanese navies were
                              > nailed to the decks of their ships before being whipped to death.
                              > Obviously, these executions were not by crucifixion. As Nick notes,
                              > the executions depicted appear to be by flaying.
                              >
                              > The salient feature of crucifixion is the nailing of the victim to
                              > a cross, after which gravity does its insidious work to kill him.
                              > (I've seen it said that they were sometimes tied to the cross, but
                              > have yet to find an ancient source to support this.) Executions by
                              > flaying, beating, or burning are another matter, even if nails were
                              > involved.
                              >
                              > best,
                              >
                              > Ed Tyler
                              >
                              >



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