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Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion

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  • ANTONIO LOMBATTI
    These are the only two sources about women crucifixion that I know of, apart from the Jewish ones quoted by Joe (Tractate Mourning 2.11 and Sanhedrin 6.5) in
    Message 1 of 20 , Apr 30, 2007
      These are the only two sources about women crucifixion that I know
      of, apart from the Jewish ones quoted by Joe (Tractate Mourning 2.11
      and Sanhedrin 6.5) in this article:

      http://www.centuryone.org/crucifixion2.html

      Antonio
      antonio lombatti


      Il giorno 30/apr/07, alle ore 21:57, Dierk van den Berg ha scritto:

      > Actually I've thought of Republican and early Imperial refs. linked
      > to the
      > Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis, and not of Julius Paulus' De
      > vaticinatoribus
      > et mathematicis in Sententiarum 5.21 (late 2nd c. CE) or the
      > Antiochos IV
      > anecdote in Jos Ant 12.256 that dals with the atrocity of the
      > Seleucid King
      > in
      > the aftermath of the Days of Eleusis.
      > However, thanks.
      >
      > Dierk van den Berg
      > RU Nijmegen, NL
      > -------------------------------------------
      > kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Antonio Lombatti" <antonio.lombatti@...>
      > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 7:35 PM
      > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
      >
      > > Maybe Joe has some other authors to quote...
      > >
      > > However, our best sourse is Flavius Josephus (Ant. Jud. 12:256):
      > he tells
      > > us that women were crucified with their sons hanging about their
      > necks. A
      > > for Rome, I have counted at least 15 different sources that describe
      > > crucifixionand crucified people. Paulus (Sent. 5.21.3-4) recalls
      > the case
      > > of a woman being crucified with her face turned towards the wood
      > of the
      > > cross for having questioned an astologer about the future of the
      > emperor.
      > >
      > > Antonio Lombatti
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Joe Zias
      Shalom, I m still aboad so you handling of this is greatly appreciated. Joe ANTONIO LOMBATTI wrote: These are the only two sources
      Message 2 of 20 , May 1, 2007
        Shalom, I'm still aboad so you handling of this is greatly appreciated.
        Joe

        ANTONIO LOMBATTI <antonio.lombatti@...> wrote:
        These are the only two sources about women crucifixion that I know
        of, apart from the Jewish ones quoted by Joe (Tractate Mourning 2.11
        and Sanhedrin 6.5) in this article:

        http://www.centuryone.org/crucifixion2.html

        Antonio
        antonio lombatti

        Il giorno 30/apr/07, alle ore 21:57, Dierk van den Berg ha scritto:

        > Actually I've thought of Republican and early Imperial refs. linked
        > to the
        > Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis, and not of Julius Paulus' De
        > vaticinatoribus
        > et mathematicis in Sententiarum 5.21 (late 2nd c. CE) or the
        > Antiochos IV
        > anecdote in Jos Ant 12.256 that dals with the atrocity of the
        > Seleucid King
        > in
        > the aftermath of the Days of Eleusis.
        > However, thanks.
        >
        > Dierk van den Berg
        > RU Nijmegen, NL
        > -------------------------------------------
        > kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Antonio Lombatti" <antonio.lombatti@...>
        > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 7:35 PM
        > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
        >
        > > Maybe Joe has some other authors to quote...
        > >
        > > However, our best sourse is Flavius Josephus (Ant. Jud. 12:256):
        > he tells
        > > us that women were crucified with their sons hanging about their
        > necks. A
        > > for Rome, I have counted at least 15 different sources that describe
        > > crucifixionand crucified people. Paulus (Sent. 5.21.3-4) recalls
        > the case
        > > of a woman being crucified with her face turned towards the wood
        > of the
        > > cross for having questioned an astologer about the future of the
        > emperor.
        > >
        > > Antonio Lombatti
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Dierk van den Berg
        The supplicium de more maiorum, the punishment in which the the accused was beaten to death with rods is the origin behind the later supplicium servile under
        Message 3 of 20 , May 3, 2007
          The supplicium de more maiorum, the punishment in which the the accused was
          beaten to death with rods is the origin behind the later supplicium servile
          under constitutional law, infelici arbori reste suspendito, mechanism of
          execution based upon the Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis (BC 82),
          commonly known from the Spartacus uprising. Crucifixion as an instrument of
          bilateral terror is first known from the Three Punic Wars, and we see a
          Roman adoption of Carthaginian handling of treachery, first exercised by
          Scipio who crucified the Roman perfugae after the fall of Carthage.
          Apparently during the wars the Roman propaganda had created the stigma of
          the Roman woman crucified together with her babies, probably an allegory of
          the Roman lupa and Romulus and Remus, reflecting the status quo of a Roman
          state under heavy pressure. However, Josephus (resp. his source) has used
          this stigma of foreign terror to describe the situation in Jerusalem when
          the Jews first came into contact with the brutality of ex-Ptolemaic
          Macedonian/Kittim/Cyriote mercenaries of the Seleucid King on his return
          from the failed expedition to Egypt in 168/7 BC. It is sufficiently known
          from history that a mortified (or beaten) army on the retreat is by far more
          brutal against NOCs than a victorious one on the advance. And as a classical
          sign of experienced brutality directed against the substance of a people I'd
          expect the allegory of the crucified woman (esp. of a pregnant one or mother
          of babies) again in the days of the Nero-redivivus Domitian, btw. the minted
          Hebrew 666 transliteration, simply to describe the common fear of a
          genocide. Actually I take the crucified woman for an allegory, a symbol of
          description, rather for a literally to be taken fact. Not by chance the
          murder by a woman was committed in the Empire by crushing the head with a
          club (Val. Max. 7.1; Amb. 1). And we don't even deal with female murder.
          The Mishna or Josephus' bloomy anecdotes (Ant 12.256; 18.79ff.) as reliable
          sources to understand history or a phenomenon at its periphery is somewhat
          wide of the mark though, and thus to be rejected.
          However, reading Martin Hengel_Crucifixion, Fortress Press 1977 would not be
          amiss.

          regards,
          Dierk van den Berg
          RU Nijmegen, NL
          -------------------------------------------
          kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)



          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "ANTONIO LOMBATTI" <antonio.lombatti@...>
          To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 11:14 PM
          Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion


          > These are the only two sources about women crucifixion that I know
          > of, apart from the Jewish ones quoted by Joe (Tractate Mourning 2.11
          > and Sanhedrin 6.5) in this article:
          >
          > http://www.centuryone.org/crucifixion2.html
          >
          > Antonio
          > antonio lombatti
        • Antonio Lombatti
          Despite the wrong belief that after Constantine crucifixion was not longer used as death punishment (the Christian world during Middle Ages still practiced
          Message 4 of 20 , May 3, 2007
            Despite the wrong belief that after Constantine crucifixion was not
            longer used as death punishment (the Christian world during Middle
            Ages still practiced crucifixion, see ALBERTUS MAGNUS,_Super
            Matthaeum_, V, 22), I've found many Palestinians crucified people by
            Christians and two more late sources about women crucified by Arabs
            in the VIIth century.

            A Nestorian monk tells in his _Chronicon anonymum_ (Corpus Scriptorum
            Christianorum Orientalium [CSCO], vol. 1, 1, p. 34) that in the
            Manichean village of Shatru even the women were crucified (zqaph).
            And John of Ephesus (Eccl. Hist. III, 19, CSCO, vol. 105, p. 146)
            recalls the crucifixion (zqipho') of Monophiste nuns.

            And, beside the work of Hengel, a masterpiece about crucifixion has
            been written by J.A. FITZMYER, _Crucifixion in Ancient Palestine,
            Qumran Literature and the New Testament_, "Catholical Biblical
            Quarterly", 40 (1978), pp. 493-513, even if he doesn't report cases
            of crucified women.

            Antonio






            Il giorno 03/mag/07, alle ore 16:39, Dierk van den Berg ha scritto:

            > The supplicium de more maiorum, the punishment in which the the
            > accused was
            > beaten to death with rods is the origin behind the later supplicium
            > servile
            > under constitutional law, infelici arbori reste suspendito,
            > mechanism of
            > execution based upon the Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis (BC 82),
            > commonly known from the Spartacus uprising. Crucifixion as an
            > instrument of
            > bilateral terror is first known from the Three Punic Wars, and we
            > see a
            > Roman adoption of Carthaginian handling of treachery, first
            > exercised by
            > Scipio who crucified the Roman perfugae after the fall of Carthage.
            > Apparently during the wars the Roman propaganda had created the
            > stigma of
            > the Roman woman crucified together with her babies, probably an
            > allegory of
            > the Roman lupa and Romulus and Remus, reflecting the status quo of
            > a Roman
            > state under heavy pressure. However, Josephus (resp. his source)
            > has used
            > this stigma of foreign terror to describe the situation in
            > Jerusalem when
            > the Jews first came into contact with the brutality of ex-Ptolemaic
            > Macedonian/Kittim/Cyriote mercenaries of the Seleucid King on his
            > return
            > from the failed expedition to Egypt in 168/7 BC. It is sufficiently
            > known
            > from history that a mortified (or beaten) army on the retreat is by
            > far more
            > brutal against NOCs than a victorious one on the advance. And as a
            > classical
            > sign of experienced brutality directed against the substance of a
            > people I'd
            > expect the allegory of the crucified woman (esp. of a pregnant one
            > or mother
            > of babies) again in the days of the Nero-redivivus Domitian, btw.
            > the minted
            > Hebrew 666 transliteration, simply to describe the common fear of a
            > genocide. Actually I take the crucified woman for an allegory, a
            > symbol of
            > description, rather for a literally to be taken fact. Not by chance
            > the
            > murder by a woman was committed in the Empire by crushing the head
            > with a
            > club (Val. Max. 7.1; Amb. 1). And we don't even deal with female
            > murder.
            > The Mishna or Josephus' bloomy anecdotes (Ant 12.256; 18.79ff.) as
            > reliable
            > sources to understand history or a phenomenon at its periphery is
            > somewhat
            > wide of the mark though, and thus to be rejected.
            > However, reading Martin Hengel_Crucifixion, Fortress Press 1977
            > would not be
            > amiss.
            >
            > regards,
            > Dierk van den Berg
            > RU Nijmegen, NL
            > -------------------------------------------
            > kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "ANTONIO LOMBATTI" <antonio.lombatti@...>
            > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 11:14 PM
            > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
            >
            > > These are the only two sources about women crucifixion that I know
            > > of, apart from the Jewish ones quoted by Joe (Tractate Mourning 2.11
            > > and Sanhedrin 6.5) in this article:
            > >
            > > http://www.centuryone.org/crucifixion2.html
            > >
            > > Antonio
            > > antonio lombatti
            >
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Dierk van den Berg
            Antonio, we simply have to distinguish between antiquity and medieval times not to draw misleading conclusions (e.g. the crucified Sophia ) from events of the
            Message 5 of 20 , May 3, 2007
              Antonio,
              we simply have to distinguish between antiquity and medieval times
              not to draw misleading conclusions (e.g. 'the crucified Sophia') from
              events of the Dark Ages. And thanks for the ref. to Fitzmyer.

              regards,
              Dierk van den Berg
              RU Nijmegen, NL
              -------------------------------------------
              kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)



              --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Despite the wrong belief that after Constantine crucifixion was
              not
              > longer used as death punishment (the Christian world during Middle
              > Ages still practiced crucifixion, see ALBERTUS MAGNUS,_Super
              > Matthaeum_, V, 22), I've found many Palestinians crucified people
              by
              > Christians and two more late sources about women crucified by
              Arabs
              > in the VIIth century.
              >
              > A Nestorian monk tells in his _Chronicon anonymum_ (Corpus
              Scriptorum
              > Christianorum Orientalium [CSCO], vol. 1, 1, p. 34) that in the
              > Manichean village of Shatru even the women were crucified (zqaph).
              > And John of Ephesus (Eccl. Hist. III, 19, CSCO, vol. 105, p. 146)
              > recalls the crucifixion (zqipho') of Monophiste nuns.
              >
              > And, beside the work of Hengel, a masterpiece about crucifixion
              has
              > been written by J.A. FITZMYER, _Crucifixion in Ancient Palestine,
              > Qumran Literature and the New Testament_, "Catholical Biblical
              > Quarterly", 40 (1978), pp. 493-513, even if he doesn't report
              cases
              > of crucified women.
              >
              > Antonio
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Il giorno 03/mag/07, alle ore 16:39, Dierk van den Berg ha scritto:
              >
              > > The supplicium de more maiorum, the punishment in which the the
              > > accused was
              > > beaten to death with rods is the origin behind the later
              supplicium
              > > servile
              > > under constitutional law, infelici arbori reste suspendito,
              > > mechanism of
              > > execution based upon the Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis (BC
              82),
              > > commonly known from the Spartacus uprising. Crucifixion as an
              > > instrument of
              > > bilateral terror is first known from the Three Punic Wars, and
              we
              > > see a
              > > Roman adoption of Carthaginian handling of treachery, first
              > > exercised by
              > > Scipio who crucified the Roman perfugae after the fall of
              Carthage.
              > > Apparently during the wars the Roman propaganda had created the
              > > stigma of
              > > the Roman woman crucified together with her babies, probably an
              > > allegory of
              > > the Roman lupa and Romulus and Remus, reflecting the status quo
              of
              > > a Roman
              > > state under heavy pressure. However, Josephus (resp. his source)
              > > has used
              > > this stigma of foreign terror to describe the situation in
              > > Jerusalem when
              > > the Jews first came into contact with the brutality of ex-
              Ptolemaic
              > > Macedonian/Kittim/Cyriote mercenaries of the Seleucid King on
              his
              > > return
              > > from the failed expedition to Egypt in 168/7 BC. It is
              sufficiently
              > > known
              > > from history that a mortified (or beaten) army on the retreat is
              by
              > > far more
              > > brutal against NOCs than a victorious one on the advance. And as
              a
              > > classical
              > > sign of experienced brutality directed against the substance of
              a
              > > people I'd
              > > expect the allegory of the crucified woman (esp. of a pregnant
              one
              > > or mother
              > > of babies) again in the days of the Nero-redivivus Domitian,
              btw.
              > > the minted
              > > Hebrew 666 transliteration, simply to describe the common fear of
              a
              > > genocide. Actually I take the crucified woman for an allegory, a
              > > symbol of
              > > description, rather for a literally to be taken fact. Not by
              chance
              > > the
              > > murder by a woman was committed in the Empire by crushing the
              head
              > > with a
              > > club (Val. Max. 7.1; Amb. 1). And we don't even deal with female
              > > murder.
              > > The Mishna or Josephus' bloomy anecdotes (Ant 12.256; 18.79ff.)
              as
              > > reliable
              > > sources to understand history or a phenomenon at its periphery
              is
              > > somewhat
              > > wide of the mark though, and thus to be rejected.
              > > However, reading Martin Hengel_Crucifixion, Fortress Press 1977
              > > would not be
              > > amiss.
              > >
              > > regards,
              > > Dierk van den Berg
              > > RU Nijmegen, NL
              > > -------------------------------------------
              > > kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: "ANTONIO LOMBATTI" <antonio.lombatti@...>
              > > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 11:14 PM
              > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
              > >
              > > > These are the only two sources about women crucifixion that I
              know
              > > > of, apart from the Jewish ones quoted by Joe (Tractate Mourning
              2.11
              > > > and Sanhedrin 6.5) in this article:
              > > >
              > > > http://www.centuryone.org/crucifixion2.html
              > > >
              > > > Antonio
              > > > antonio lombatti
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Antonio Lombatti
              Sorry, you re right. I ve only searched for sources about crucified women. And this had lead me to AD 600. Best regards, Antonio ... [Non-text portions of this
              Message 6 of 20 , May 3, 2007
                Sorry, you're right. I've only searched for sources about crucified
                women. And this had lead me to AD 600.

                Best regards,
                Antonio



                Il giorno 03/mag/07, alle ore 19:51, Dierk van den Berg ha scritto:

                > Antonio,
                > we simply have to distinguish between antiquity and medieval times
                > not to draw misleading conclusions (e.g. 'the crucified Sophia') from
                > events of the Dark Ages. And thanks for the ref. to Fitzmyer.
                >
                > regards,
                > Dierk van den Berg
                > RU Nijmegen, NL
                > -------------------------------------------
                > kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)
                >
                > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > Despite the wrong belief that after Constantine crucifixion was
                > not
                > > longer used as death punishment (the Christian world during Middle
                > > Ages still practiced crucifixion, see ALBERTUS MAGNUS,_Super
                > > Matthaeum_, V, 22), I've found many Palestinians crucified people
                > by
                > > Christians and two more late sources about women crucified by
                > Arabs
                > > in the VIIth century.
                > >
                > > A Nestorian monk tells in his _Chronicon anonymum_ (Corpus
                > Scriptorum
                > > Christianorum Orientalium [CSCO], vol. 1, 1, p. 34) that in the
                > > Manichean village of Shatru even the women were crucified (zqaph).
                > > And John of Ephesus (Eccl. Hist. III, 19, CSCO, vol. 105, p. 146)
                > > recalls the crucifixion (zqipho') of Monophiste nuns.
                > >
                > > And, beside the work of Hengel, a masterpiece about crucifixion
                > has
                > > been written by J.A. FITZMYER, _Crucifixion in Ancient Palestine,
                > > Qumran Literature and the New Testament_, "Catholical Biblical
                > > Quarterly", 40 (1978), pp. 493-513, even if he doesn't report
                > cases
                > > of crucified women.
                > >
                > > Antonio
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Il giorno 03/mag/07, alle ore 16:39, Dierk van den Berg ha scritto:
                > >
                > > > The supplicium de more maiorum, the punishment in which the the
                > > > accused was
                > > > beaten to death with rods is the origin behind the later
                > supplicium
                > > > servile
                > > > under constitutional law, infelici arbori reste suspendito,
                > > > mechanism of
                > > > execution based upon the Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis (BC
                > 82),
                > > > commonly known from the Spartacus uprising. Crucifixion as an
                > > > instrument of
                > > > bilateral terror is first known from the Three Punic Wars, and
                > we
                > > > see a
                > > > Roman adoption of Carthaginian handling of treachery, first
                > > > exercised by
                > > > Scipio who crucified the Roman perfugae after the fall of
                > Carthage.
                > > > Apparently during the wars the Roman propaganda had created the
                > > > stigma of
                > > > the Roman woman crucified together with her babies, probably an
                > > > allegory of
                > > > the Roman lupa and Romulus and Remus, reflecting the status quo
                > of
                > > > a Roman
                > > > state under heavy pressure. However, Josephus (resp. his source)
                > > > has used
                > > > this stigma of foreign terror to describe the situation in
                > > > Jerusalem when
                > > > the Jews first came into contact with the brutality of ex-
                > Ptolemaic
                > > > Macedonian/Kittim/Cyriote mercenaries of the Seleucid King on
                > his
                > > > return
                > > > from the failed expedition to Egypt in 168/7 BC. It is
                > sufficiently
                > > > known
                > > > from history that a mortified (or beaten) army on the retreat is
                > by
                > > > far more
                > > > brutal against NOCs than a victorious one on the advance. And as
                > a
                > > > classical
                > > > sign of experienced brutality directed against the substance of
                > a
                > > > people I'd
                > > > expect the allegory of the crucified woman (esp. of a pregnant
                > one
                > > > or mother
                > > > of babies) again in the days of the Nero-redivivus Domitian,
                > btw.
                > > > the minted
                > > > Hebrew 666 transliteration, simply to describe the common fear of
                > a
                > > > genocide. Actually I take the crucified woman for an allegory, a
                > > > symbol of
                > > > description, rather for a literally to be taken fact. Not by
                > chance
                > > > the
                > > > murder by a woman was committed in the Empire by crushing the
                > head
                > > > with a
                > > > club (Val. Max. 7.1; Amb. 1). And we don't even deal with female
                > > > murder.
                > > > The Mishna or Josephus' bloomy anecdotes (Ant 12.256; 18.79ff.)
                > as
                > > > reliable
                > > > sources to understand history or a phenomenon at its periphery
                > is
                > > > somewhat
                > > > wide of the mark though, and thus to be rejected.
                > > > However, reading Martin Hengel_Crucifixion, Fortress Press 1977
                > > > would not be
                > > > amiss.
                > > >
                > > > regards,
                > > > Dierk van den Berg
                > > > RU Nijmegen, NL
                > > > -------------------------------------------
                > > > kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)
                > > >
                > > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > > From: "ANTONIO LOMBATTI" <antonio.lombatti@...>
                > > > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                > > > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 11:14 PM
                > > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
                > > >
                > > > > These are the only two sources about women crucifixion that I
                > know
                > > > > of, apart from the Jewish ones quoted by Joe (Tractate Mourning
                > 2.11
                > > > > and Sanhedrin 6.5) in this article:
                > > > >
                > > > > http://www.centuryone.org/crucifixion2.html
                > > > >
                > > > > Antonio
                > > > > antonio lombatti
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Antonio Lombatti
                I ve found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National Archaeological Museum. Even if I m a bit doubtful about its interpretation, the
                Message 7 of 20 , May 9, 2007
                  I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National
                  Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
                  interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
                  crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).

                  I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person was
                  hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
                  been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the thesis
                  that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
                  by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
                  abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
                  principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
                  l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).

                  However, this might be the only representation of a hung (crucified?)
                  woman that I'm aware of.

                  I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at

                  http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg

                  Antonio Lombatti


                  P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
                  couple of days. (:-)




                  Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:

                  > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a woman
                  > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
                  > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
                  >
                  > Peter Miscall
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Trudy Kawami
                  Antonio, I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or whatever. It would
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 10, 2007
                    Antonio,
                    I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or whatever. It would be good to look at the original object before offering an interpretation. At best the style is 4th cent. BCE, not 5th. Where did you find the drawing? The woman looks like she is dancing, not being hung on a tree; there are baskets, clothes, jewlery and other figures (seated at rt?) so the section you posted does not give the whole scene.I doubtg whether the scene has anything to do with crucifixions.
                    Trudy Kawami

                    ________________________________

                    From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Antonio Lombatti
                    Sent: Wed 5/9/2007 12:12 PM
                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion



                    I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National
                    Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
                    interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
                    crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).

                    I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person was
                    hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
                    been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the thesis
                    that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
                    by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
                    abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
                    principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
                    l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).

                    However, this might be the only representation of a hung (crucified?)
                    woman that I'm aware of.

                    I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at

                    http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg <http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg>

                    Antonio Lombatti

                    P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
                    couple of days. (:-)

                    Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:

                    > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a woman
                    > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
                    > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
                    >
                    > Peter Miscall
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Antonio Lombatti
                    Trudy, I have no expertise in ancient Art History, therefore I posted the image so that some of could judge it. Probably, it has nothing to do with
                    Message 9 of 20 , May 11, 2007
                      Trudy,

                      I have no expertise in ancient Art History, therefore I posted the
                      image so that some of could judge it. Probably, it has nothing to do
                      with crucifixion, as you suggested; however, I think that she (I mean
                      the hung woman) should not be dancing with her wrists tied and
                      completely naked.

                      The picture is labelled and dated as I wrote in my previous post.
                      However, I have lots of doubts about it. I've seen it in an Italian
                      paper on death penalties in Antiquity and as for the above image it
                      says it comes from M. Torelli _Etruria. Guida Archeologica_. Roma:
                      Laterza, 1993.

                      There are two more interesting photos (even if they don't refer to
                      women crucifixion):

                      http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/6908/cruxpl5.jpg


                      1. (Above) Bas-relief of the Palace of Sennacherib at Niniveh
                      depicting the taking of Lachish (701/689-688); it showa two men
                      "crucified" on boards and flayed.
                      2. (Below) Assyrian crucifixion by means of nails and rings


                      Comments and suggestions are all welcome, since I'm finishing a paper
                      on crucifixion.

                      Antonio Lombatti


                      Il giorno 11/mag/07, alle ore 04:36, Trudy Kawami ha scritto:

                      > Antonio,
                      > I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing
                      > after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or
                      > whatever. It would be good to look at the original object before
                      > offering an interpretation. At best the style is 4th cent. BCE, not
                      > 5th. Where did you find the drawing? The woman looks like she is
                      > dancing, not being hung on a tree; there are baskets, clothes,
                      > jewlery and other figures (seated at rt?) so the section you posted
                      > does not give the whole scene.I doubtg whether the scene has
                      > anything to do with crucifixions.
                      > Trudy Kawami
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      >
                      > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Antonio Lombatti
                      > Sent: Wed 5/9/2007 12:12 PM
                      > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
                      >
                      > I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National
                      > Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
                      > interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
                      > crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).
                      >
                      > I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person was
                      > hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
                      > been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the thesis
                      > that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
                      > by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
                      > abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
                      > principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
                      > l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).
                      >
                      > However, this might be the only representation of a hung (crucified?)
                      > woman that I'm aware of.
                      >
                      > I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at
                      >
                      > http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg<http://
                      > img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg>
                      >
                      > Antonio Lombatti
                      >
                      > P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
                      > couple of days. (:-)
                      >
                      > Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:
                      >
                      > > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a
                      > woman
                      > > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
                      > > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
                      > >
                      > > Peter Miscall
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • sbudin@camden.rutgers.edu
                      The naked dancer, plus the box, alabastron, etc. seems more reminiscent of initiation into the mysteries (of Dionysos?) than crucifixion. A rather late
                      Message 10 of 20 , May 11, 2007
                        The naked dancer, plus the box, alabastron, etc. seems more reminiscent of
                        initiation into the mysteries (of Dionysos?) than crucifixion. A rather late
                        comparandum would be the Villa of the Mysteries at Pompeii. Here there is at
                        least one mostly naked girl being whipped, and a naked female dancer with
                        cistra.
                        Perhaps this is a religious scene?

                        -Stephanie Budin



                        Quoting Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...>:

                        > Trudy,
                        >
                        > I have no expertise in ancient Art History, therefore I posted the
                        > image so that some of could judge it. Probably, it has nothing to do
                        > with crucifixion, as you suggested; however, I think that she (I mean
                        > the hung woman) should not be dancing with her wrists tied and
                        > completely naked.
                        >
                        > The picture is labelled and dated as I wrote in my previous post.
                        > However, I have lots of doubts about it. I've seen it in an Italian
                        > paper on death penalties in Antiquity and as for the above image it
                        > says it comes from M. Torelli _Etruria. Guida Archeologica_. Roma:
                        > Laterza, 1993.
                        >
                        > There are two more interesting photos (even if they don't refer to
                        > women crucifixion):
                        >
                        > http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/6908/cruxpl5.jpg
                        >
                        >
                        > 1. (Above) Bas-relief of the Palace of Sennacherib at Niniveh
                        > depicting the taking of Lachish (701/689-688); it showa two men
                        > "crucified" on boards and flayed.
                        > 2. (Below) Assyrian crucifixion by means of nails and rings
                        >
                        >
                        > Comments and suggestions are all welcome, since I'm finishing a paper
                        > on crucifixion.
                        >
                        > Antonio Lombatti
                        >
                        >
                        > Il giorno 11/mag/07, alle ore 04:36, Trudy Kawami ha scritto:
                        >
                        > > Antonio,
                        > > I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing
                        > > after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or
                        > > whatever. It would be good to look at the original object before
                        > > offering an interpretation. At best the style is 4th cent. BCE, not
                        > > 5th. Where did you find the drawing? The woman looks like she is
                        > > dancing, not being hung on a tree; there are baskets, clothes,
                        > > jewlery and other figures (seated at rt?) so the section you posted
                        > > does not give the whole scene.I doubtg whether the scene has
                        > > anything to do with crucifixions.
                        > > Trudy Kawami
                        > >
                        > > ________________________________
                        > >
                        > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Antonio Lombatti
                        > > Sent: Wed 5/9/2007 12:12 PM
                        > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
                        > >
                        > > I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National
                        > > Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
                        > > interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
                        > > crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).
                        > >
                        > > I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person was
                        > > hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
                        > > been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the thesis
                        > > that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
                        > > by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
                        > > abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
                        > > principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
                        > > l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).
                        > >
                        > > However, this might be the only representation of a hung (crucified?)
                        > > woman that I'm aware of.
                        > >
                        > > I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at
                        > >
                        > > http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg<http://
                        > > img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg>
                        > >
                        > > Antonio Lombatti
                        > >
                        > > P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
                        > > couple of days. (:-)
                        > >
                        > > Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:
                        > >
                        > > > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a
                        > > woman
                        > > > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
                        > > > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
                        > > >
                        > > > Peter Miscall
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        "Maybe we can link up with someone who’s meditating and download enlightenment!"
                        -Tachikoma
                      • nick smith
                        The two pics shown dipict the Assyrian king Ansasurpal (appologies for the spelling) flaying POWs after campaining in northen Mesopotamia.The POWs are soldiers
                        Message 11 of 20 , May 12, 2007
                          The two pics shown dipict the Assyrian king Ansasurpal (appologies for the spelling) flaying POWs after campaining in northen Mesopotamia.The POWs are soldiers being flayed in front of their children.I'll try find a clearer reference forb the image and post,but these images also have nothing to do with crucifixion.

                          Hope this helps,

                          Nick Smith

                          Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...> wrote:
                          Trudy,

                          I have no expertise in ancient Art History, therefore I posted the
                          image so that some of could judge it. Probably, it has nothing to do
                          with crucifixion, as you suggested; however, I think that she (I mean
                          the hung woman) should not be dancing with her wrists tied and
                          completely naked.

                          The picture is labelled and dated as I wrote in my previous post.
                          However, I have lots of doubts about it. I've seen it in an Italian
                          paper on death penalties in Antiquity and as for the above image it
                          says it comes from M. Torelli _Etruria. Guida Archeologica_. Roma:
                          Laterza, 1993.

                          There are two more interesting photos (even if they don't refer to
                          women crucifixion):

                          http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/6908/cruxpl5.jpg

                          1. (Above) Bas-relief of the Palace of Sennacherib at Niniveh
                          depicting the taking of Lachish (701/689-688); it showa two men
                          "crucified" on boards and flayed.
                          2. (Below) Assyrian crucifixion by means of nails and rings

                          Comments and suggestions are all welcome, since I'm finishing a paper
                          on crucifixion.

                          Antonio Lombatti

                          Il giorno 11/mag/07, alle ore 04:36, Trudy Kawami ha scritto:

                          > Antonio,
                          > I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing
                          > after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or
                          > whatever. It would be good to look at the original object before
                          > offering an interpretation. At best the style is 4th cent. BCE, not
                          > 5th. Where did you find the drawing? The woman looks like she is
                          > dancing, not being hung on a tree; there are baskets, clothes,
                          > jewlery and other figures (seated at rt?) so the section you posted
                          > does not give the whole scene.I doubtg whether the scene has
                          > anything to do with crucifixions.
                          > Trudy Kawami
                          >
                          > ________________________________
                          >
                          > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Antonio Lombatti
                          > Sent: Wed 5/9/2007 12:12 PM
                          > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
                          >
                          > I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National
                          > Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
                          > interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
                          > crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).
                          >
                          > I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person was
                          > hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
                          > been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the thesis
                          > that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
                          > by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
                          > abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
                          > principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
                          > l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).
                          >
                          > However, this might be the only representation of a hung (crucified?)
                          > woman that I'm aware of.
                          >
                          > I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at
                          >
                          > http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg<http://
                          > img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg>
                          >
                          > Antonio Lombatti
                          >
                          > P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
                          > couple of days. (:-)
                          >
                          > Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:
                          >
                          > > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a
                          > woman
                          > > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
                          > > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
                          > >
                          > > Peter Miscall
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                          ---------------------------------
                          The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider.

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Antonio Lombatti
                          Nick, thanks for your opinion. Both images are listed as crucifixions by P. Vitale, _Crocifissione_. Phaidon: Roma, 2005, who quotes J.J. Collins,_Archaeology
                          Message 12 of 20 , May 12, 2007
                            Nick,

                            thanks for your opinion. Both images are listed as crucifixions by P.
                            Vitale, _Crocifissione_. Phaidon: Roma, 2005, who quotes J.J.
                            Collins,_Archaeology of the Crucifixion_. in "Catholical Biblical
                            Quarterly", 1 (1939), p. 160. As I said I am not an art historian;
                            however, in the second drawing, one can clearly see nails through the
                            victim's wrists. Probably, there were nailed in order to flay them
                            better.

                            Antonio Lombatti



                            Il giorno 12/mag/07, alle ore 20:23, nick smith ha scritto:

                            > The two pics shown dipict the Assyrian king Ansasurpal (appologies
                            > for the spelling) flaying POWs after campaining in northen
                            > Mesopotamia.The POWs are soldiers being flayed in front of their
                            > children.I'll try find a clearer reference forb the image and
                            > post,but these images also have nothing to do with crucifixion.
                            >
                            > Hope this helps,
                            >
                            > Nick Smith
                            >
                            > Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...> wrote:
                            > Trudy,
                            >
                            > I have no expertise in ancient Art History, therefore I posted the
                            > image so that some of could judge it. Probably, it has nothing to do
                            > with crucifixion, as you suggested; however, I think that she (I mean
                            > the hung woman) should not be dancing with her wrists tied and
                            > completely naked.
                            >
                            > The picture is labelled and dated as I wrote in my previous post.
                            > However, I have lots of doubts about it. I've seen it in an Italian
                            > paper on death penalties in Antiquity and as for the above image it
                            > says it comes from M. Torelli _Etruria. Guida Archeologica_. Roma:
                            > Laterza, 1993.
                            >
                            > There are two more interesting photos (even if they don't refer to
                            > women crucifixion):
                            >
                            > http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/6908/cruxpl5.jpg
                            >
                            > 1. (Above) Bas-relief of the Palace of Sennacherib at Niniveh
                            > depicting the taking of Lachish (701/689-688); it showa two men
                            > "crucified" on boards and flayed.
                            > 2. (Below) Assyrian crucifixion by means of nails and rings
                            >
                            > Comments and suggestions are all welcome, since I'm finishing a paper
                            > on crucifixion.
                            >
                            > Antonio Lombatti
                            >
                            > Il giorno 11/mag/07, alle ore 04:36, Trudy Kawami ha scritto:
                            >
                            > > Antonio,
                            > > I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing
                            > > after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or
                            > > whatever. It would be good to look at the original object before
                            > > offering an interpretation. At best the style is 4th cent. BCE, not
                            > > 5th. Where did you find the drawing? The woman looks like she is
                            > > dancing, not being hung on a tree; there are baskets, clothes,
                            > > jewlery and other figures (seated at rt?) so the section you posted
                            > > does not give the whole scene.I doubtg whether the scene has
                            > > anything to do with crucifixions.
                            > > Trudy Kawami
                            > >
                            > > ________________________________
                            > >
                            > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Antonio Lombatti
                            > > Sent: Wed 5/9/2007 12:12 PM
                            > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
                            > >
                            > > I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina
                            > National
                            > > Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
                            > > interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
                            > > crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).
                            > >
                            > > I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person
                            > was
                            > > hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
                            > > been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the
                            > thesis
                            > > that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
                            > > by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
                            > > abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
                            > > principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
                            > > l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).
                            > >
                            > > However, this might be the only representation of a hung
                            > (crucified?)
                            > > woman that I'm aware of.
                            > >
                            > > I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at
                            > >
                            > > http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg<http://
                            > > img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg>
                            > >
                            > > Antonio Lombatti
                            > >
                            > > P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
                            > > couple of days. (:-)
                            > >
                            > > Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:
                            > >
                            > > > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a
                            > > woman
                            > > > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
                            > > > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
                            > > >
                            > > > Peter Miscall
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
                            > The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email
                            > address from your Internet provider.
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • leeedgartyler@cox.net
                            ... Hello, Antonio, That s quite likely true, as victims of extraordinarily painful executions were often nailed in place first, but I would not classify such
                            Message 13 of 20 , May 12, 2007
                              ---- Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...> wrote:
                              > Nick,
                              >
                              > thanks for your opinion. Both images are listed as crucifixions by P.
                              > Vitale, _Crocifissione_. Phaidon: Roma, 2005, who quotes J.J.
                              > Collins,_Archaeology of the Crucifixion_. in "Catholical Biblical
                              > Quarterly", 1 (1939), p. 160. As I said I am not an art historian;
                              > however, in the second drawing, one can clearly see nails through the
                              > victim's wrists. Probably, there were nailed in order to flay them
                              > better.
                              >
                              > Antonio Lombatti
                              >

                              Hello, Antonio,

                              That's quite likely true, as victims of extraordinarily painful executions were often nailed in place first, but I would not classify such things as crucifixions. We're reliably informed by ancient sources that victims of burnings were often nailed to stakes, and pirates captured by the Imperial Japanese navies were nailed to the decks of their ships before being whipped to death. Obviously, these executions were not by crucifixion. As Nick notes, the executions depicted appear to be by flaying.

                              The salient feature of crucifixion is the nailing of the victim to a cross, after which gravity does its insidious work to kill him. (I've seen it said that they were sometimes tied to the cross, but have yet to find an ancient source to support this.) Executions by flaying, beating, or burning are another matter, even if nails were involved.

                              best,

                              Ed Tyler
                            • Antonio Lombatti
                              Ed, thanks for your observations. Since there s no agreement, I ll write that victims were nailed (not crucified) and then tortured. J. Fitzmyer and E. Puech
                              Message 14 of 20 , May 13, 2007
                                Ed,

                                thanks for your observations. Since there's no agreement, I'll write
                                that victims were nailed (not crucified) and then tortured. J.
                                Fitzmyer and E. Puech thought that even the OT and qumranic TLH
                                referred to crucifixion even if the texts do not clearly say that
                                victims were nailed to a wooden beam (Deut. 21:22-23, 4QpNah and
                                11QTemple - J.M. Baumgarten,_Does TLH in the Temple Scroll Refer to
                                Crucifixion?_. in "Journal of Biblical Literature" 91 [1972], pp.
                                472-481 and E. Puech, _Notes sur 11Q et 4Q524. A propos de la
                                crucifixion dans le Rouleau et dans le Judaisme_. in "Revue de
                                Qumran" 69 [1997], pp. 109-124).

                                The verb "talah" appears 30 times in the OT and it seems to have a
                                variety of possible translations (at least in Italian): raise,
                                suspend an oject, hang from a scaffold, find oneself suspended with
                                the mind (F. Parente,_Talah 'al 'es: una norma di diritto penale
                                biblico_. in "Studi classici e orientali" 27 [1977], pp. 79-137). I
                                would include all death punishments by "hanging alive" as crucifixion
                                (even the Aramaic SLB, see J. Levy,_Woerterbuch ueber die Talmudim
                                und Midraschchim_. Harz: Berlin, 1924, 4. Band, p. 189 "SLB=kreuzigen").

                                So, considering that the images I've posted before could or could not
                                refer to crucifixion in the sense how today the verb is understood,
                                the first representations of crucifixions that we have today are two
                                Italian graffiti, one found near Rome (AD 250) and the other one in
                                Pozzuoli (AD 100), and an Egyptian amulet (AD 200):


                                Pozzuoli graffito
                                http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/6475/pozzuolihv3.jpg

                                Alexamenos worshipping his God (Jesus)
                                http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/6682/alexmx9.jpg

                                Egyptian amulet
                                http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7995/egittool1.jpg


                                Moreover, the Pozzuoli graffito is our earliest iconographic source
                                about crucifixion (I mean, nailed or tied to a wooden beam). On a T-
                                shaped cross ("crux commissa" or "crux humilis") is a victim depicted
                                from behind. There is no evidence of a "suppedeaneum". The victim is
                                not naked but was clothed with an animal skin (?) (also Tacitus wrote
                                of condemned men dressed in animal skins; _Annales_, 15,44; 2,13,1:
                                "Ferarum tergist contecti", "contectus umeros ferina pelle").
                                Perhaps, this was done to attract te animals freed in the circus and
                                thus end up torn pieces as described in the mime of the _Laureolus_
                                (see Martial's _Spect._ 7 on Latin crucifixion shows).

                                As for the Pozzuoli crucifixion graffito, there are two different
                                interpretations. A. Maiuri says it depicts Jesus (_La Campania al
                                tempo dell'approdo di S. Paolo_. in "Studi Romani", 6 [1961], p.
                                135), while M. Guarducci is of the opinion that it represents a slave
                                woman, as the figure has long hair and wearing a tunic (not an animal
                                skin). Moreover, she identified an inscription over the victim's
                                head: ALCIMILLA (_Iscrizioni greche e latine in una Taberna di
                                Pozzuoli_. _Acta of the Fifth Epigraphic Congress_. IPS: Roma, 1967,
                                pp. 219-223).



                                Antonio Lombatti


                                Il giorno 13/mag/07, alle ore 01:53, leeedgartyler@... ha scritto:

                                >
                                > ---- Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...> wrote:
                                > > Nick,
                                > >
                                > > thanks for your opinion. Both images are listed as crucifixions
                                > by P.
                                > > Vitale, _Crocifissione_. Phaidon: Roma, 2005, who quotes J.J.
                                > > Collins,_Archaeology of the Crucifixion_. in "Catholical Biblical
                                > > Quarterly", 1 (1939), p. 160. As I said I am not an art historian;
                                > > however, in the second drawing, one can clearly see nails through
                                > the
                                > > victim's wrists. Probably, there were nailed in order to flay them
                                > > better.
                                > >
                                > > Antonio Lombatti
                                > >
                                >
                                > Hello, Antonio,
                                >
                                > That's quite likely true, as victims of extraordinarily painful
                                > executions were often nailed in place first, but I would not
                                > classify such things as crucifixions. We're reliably informed by
                                > ancient sources that victims of burnings were often nailed to
                                > stakes, and pirates captured by the Imperial Japanese navies were
                                > nailed to the decks of their ships before being whipped to death.
                                > Obviously, these executions were not by crucifixion. As Nick notes,
                                > the executions depicted appear to be by flaying.
                                >
                                > The salient feature of crucifixion is the nailing of the victim to
                                > a cross, after which gravity does its insidious work to kill him.
                                > (I've seen it said that they were sometimes tied to the cross, but
                                > have yet to find an ancient source to support this.) Executions by
                                > flaying, beating, or burning are another matter, even if nails were
                                > involved.
                                >
                                > best,
                                >
                                > Ed Tyler
                                >
                                >



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