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Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion

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  • Dierk van den Berg
    Actually I ve thought of Republican and early Imperial refs. linked to the Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis, and not of Julius Paulus De vaticinatoribus et
    Message 1 of 20 , Apr 30, 2007
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      Actually I've thought of Republican and early Imperial refs. linked to the
      Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis, and not of Julius Paulus' De
      vaticinatoribus
      et mathematicis in Sententiarum 5.21 (late 2nd c. CE) or the Antiochos IV
      anecdote in Jos Ant 12.256 that dals with the atrocity of the Seleucid King
      in
      the aftermath of the Days of Eleusis.
      However, thanks.

      Dierk van den Berg
      RU Nijmegen, NL
      -------------------------------------------
      kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)






      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Antonio Lombatti" <antonio.lombatti@...>
      To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 7:35 PM
      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion


      > Maybe Joe has some other authors to quote...
      >
      > However, our best sourse is Flavius Josephus (Ant. Jud. 12:256): he tells
      > us that women were crucified with their sons hanging about their necks. A
      > for Rome, I have counted at least 15 different sources that describe
      > crucifixionand crucified people. Paulus (Sent. 5.21.3-4) recalls the case
      > of a woman being crucified with her face turned towards the wood of the
      > cross for having questioned an astologer about the future of the emperor.
      >
      > Antonio Lombatti
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • ANTONIO LOMBATTI
      These are the only two sources about women crucifixion that I know of, apart from the Jewish ones quoted by Joe (Tractate Mourning 2.11 and Sanhedrin 6.5) in
      Message 2 of 20 , Apr 30, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        These are the only two sources about women crucifixion that I know
        of, apart from the Jewish ones quoted by Joe (Tractate Mourning 2.11
        and Sanhedrin 6.5) in this article:

        http://www.centuryone.org/crucifixion2.html

        Antonio
        antonio lombatti


        Il giorno 30/apr/07, alle ore 21:57, Dierk van den Berg ha scritto:

        > Actually I've thought of Republican and early Imperial refs. linked
        > to the
        > Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis, and not of Julius Paulus' De
        > vaticinatoribus
        > et mathematicis in Sententiarum 5.21 (late 2nd c. CE) or the
        > Antiochos IV
        > anecdote in Jos Ant 12.256 that dals with the atrocity of the
        > Seleucid King
        > in
        > the aftermath of the Days of Eleusis.
        > However, thanks.
        >
        > Dierk van den Berg
        > RU Nijmegen, NL
        > -------------------------------------------
        > kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Antonio Lombatti" <antonio.lombatti@...>
        > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 7:35 PM
        > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
        >
        > > Maybe Joe has some other authors to quote...
        > >
        > > However, our best sourse is Flavius Josephus (Ant. Jud. 12:256):
        > he tells
        > > us that women were crucified with their sons hanging about their
        > necks. A
        > > for Rome, I have counted at least 15 different sources that describe
        > > crucifixionand crucified people. Paulus (Sent. 5.21.3-4) recalls
        > the case
        > > of a woman being crucified with her face turned towards the wood
        > of the
        > > cross for having questioned an astologer about the future of the
        > emperor.
        > >
        > > Antonio Lombatti
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Joe Zias
        Shalom, I m still aboad so you handling of this is greatly appreciated. Joe ANTONIO LOMBATTI wrote: These are the only two sources
        Message 3 of 20 , May 1, 2007
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          Shalom, I'm still aboad so you handling of this is greatly appreciated.
          Joe

          ANTONIO LOMBATTI <antonio.lombatti@...> wrote:
          These are the only two sources about women crucifixion that I know
          of, apart from the Jewish ones quoted by Joe (Tractate Mourning 2.11
          and Sanhedrin 6.5) in this article:

          http://www.centuryone.org/crucifixion2.html

          Antonio
          antonio lombatti

          Il giorno 30/apr/07, alle ore 21:57, Dierk van den Berg ha scritto:

          > Actually I've thought of Republican and early Imperial refs. linked
          > to the
          > Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis, and not of Julius Paulus' De
          > vaticinatoribus
          > et mathematicis in Sententiarum 5.21 (late 2nd c. CE) or the
          > Antiochos IV
          > anecdote in Jos Ant 12.256 that dals with the atrocity of the
          > Seleucid King
          > in
          > the aftermath of the Days of Eleusis.
          > However, thanks.
          >
          > Dierk van den Berg
          > RU Nijmegen, NL
          > -------------------------------------------
          > kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "Antonio Lombatti" <antonio.lombatti@...>
          > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 7:35 PM
          > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
          >
          > > Maybe Joe has some other authors to quote...
          > >
          > > However, our best sourse is Flavius Josephus (Ant. Jud. 12:256):
          > he tells
          > > us that women were crucified with their sons hanging about their
          > necks. A
          > > for Rome, I have counted at least 15 different sources that describe
          > > crucifixionand crucified people. Paulus (Sent. 5.21.3-4) recalls
          > the case
          > > of a woman being crucified with her face turned towards the wood
          > of the
          > > cross for having questioned an astologer about the future of the
          > emperor.
          > >
          > > Antonio Lombatti
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Dierk van den Berg
          The supplicium de more maiorum, the punishment in which the the accused was beaten to death with rods is the origin behind the later supplicium servile under
          Message 4 of 20 , May 3, 2007
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            The supplicium de more maiorum, the punishment in which the the accused was
            beaten to death with rods is the origin behind the later supplicium servile
            under constitutional law, infelici arbori reste suspendito, mechanism of
            execution based upon the Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis (BC 82),
            commonly known from the Spartacus uprising. Crucifixion as an instrument of
            bilateral terror is first known from the Three Punic Wars, and we see a
            Roman adoption of Carthaginian handling of treachery, first exercised by
            Scipio who crucified the Roman perfugae after the fall of Carthage.
            Apparently during the wars the Roman propaganda had created the stigma of
            the Roman woman crucified together with her babies, probably an allegory of
            the Roman lupa and Romulus and Remus, reflecting the status quo of a Roman
            state under heavy pressure. However, Josephus (resp. his source) has used
            this stigma of foreign terror to describe the situation in Jerusalem when
            the Jews first came into contact with the brutality of ex-Ptolemaic
            Macedonian/Kittim/Cyriote mercenaries of the Seleucid King on his return
            from the failed expedition to Egypt in 168/7 BC. It is sufficiently known
            from history that a mortified (or beaten) army on the retreat is by far more
            brutal against NOCs than a victorious one on the advance. And as a classical
            sign of experienced brutality directed against the substance of a people I'd
            expect the allegory of the crucified woman (esp. of a pregnant one or mother
            of babies) again in the days of the Nero-redivivus Domitian, btw. the minted
            Hebrew 666 transliteration, simply to describe the common fear of a
            genocide. Actually I take the crucified woman for an allegory, a symbol of
            description, rather for a literally to be taken fact. Not by chance the
            murder by a woman was committed in the Empire by crushing the head with a
            club (Val. Max. 7.1; Amb. 1). And we don't even deal with female murder.
            The Mishna or Josephus' bloomy anecdotes (Ant 12.256; 18.79ff.) as reliable
            sources to understand history or a phenomenon at its periphery is somewhat
            wide of the mark though, and thus to be rejected.
            However, reading Martin Hengel_Crucifixion, Fortress Press 1977 would not be
            amiss.

            regards,
            Dierk van den Berg
            RU Nijmegen, NL
            -------------------------------------------
            kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)



            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "ANTONIO LOMBATTI" <antonio.lombatti@...>
            To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 11:14 PM
            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion


            > These are the only two sources about women crucifixion that I know
            > of, apart from the Jewish ones quoted by Joe (Tractate Mourning 2.11
            > and Sanhedrin 6.5) in this article:
            >
            > http://www.centuryone.org/crucifixion2.html
            >
            > Antonio
            > antonio lombatti
          • Antonio Lombatti
            Despite the wrong belief that after Constantine crucifixion was not longer used as death punishment (the Christian world during Middle Ages still practiced
            Message 5 of 20 , May 3, 2007
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              Despite the wrong belief that after Constantine crucifixion was not
              longer used as death punishment (the Christian world during Middle
              Ages still practiced crucifixion, see ALBERTUS MAGNUS,_Super
              Matthaeum_, V, 22), I've found many Palestinians crucified people by
              Christians and two more late sources about women crucified by Arabs
              in the VIIth century.

              A Nestorian monk tells in his _Chronicon anonymum_ (Corpus Scriptorum
              Christianorum Orientalium [CSCO], vol. 1, 1, p. 34) that in the
              Manichean village of Shatru even the women were crucified (zqaph).
              And John of Ephesus (Eccl. Hist. III, 19, CSCO, vol. 105, p. 146)
              recalls the crucifixion (zqipho') of Monophiste nuns.

              And, beside the work of Hengel, a masterpiece about crucifixion has
              been written by J.A. FITZMYER, _Crucifixion in Ancient Palestine,
              Qumran Literature and the New Testament_, "Catholical Biblical
              Quarterly", 40 (1978), pp. 493-513, even if he doesn't report cases
              of crucified women.

              Antonio






              Il giorno 03/mag/07, alle ore 16:39, Dierk van den Berg ha scritto:

              > The supplicium de more maiorum, the punishment in which the the
              > accused was
              > beaten to death with rods is the origin behind the later supplicium
              > servile
              > under constitutional law, infelici arbori reste suspendito,
              > mechanism of
              > execution based upon the Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis (BC 82),
              > commonly known from the Spartacus uprising. Crucifixion as an
              > instrument of
              > bilateral terror is first known from the Three Punic Wars, and we
              > see a
              > Roman adoption of Carthaginian handling of treachery, first
              > exercised by
              > Scipio who crucified the Roman perfugae after the fall of Carthage.
              > Apparently during the wars the Roman propaganda had created the
              > stigma of
              > the Roman woman crucified together with her babies, probably an
              > allegory of
              > the Roman lupa and Romulus and Remus, reflecting the status quo of
              > a Roman
              > state under heavy pressure. However, Josephus (resp. his source)
              > has used
              > this stigma of foreign terror to describe the situation in
              > Jerusalem when
              > the Jews first came into contact with the brutality of ex-Ptolemaic
              > Macedonian/Kittim/Cyriote mercenaries of the Seleucid King on his
              > return
              > from the failed expedition to Egypt in 168/7 BC. It is sufficiently
              > known
              > from history that a mortified (or beaten) army on the retreat is by
              > far more
              > brutal against NOCs than a victorious one on the advance. And as a
              > classical
              > sign of experienced brutality directed against the substance of a
              > people I'd
              > expect the allegory of the crucified woman (esp. of a pregnant one
              > or mother
              > of babies) again in the days of the Nero-redivivus Domitian, btw.
              > the minted
              > Hebrew 666 transliteration, simply to describe the common fear of a
              > genocide. Actually I take the crucified woman for an allegory, a
              > symbol of
              > description, rather for a literally to be taken fact. Not by chance
              > the
              > murder by a woman was committed in the Empire by crushing the head
              > with a
              > club (Val. Max. 7.1; Amb. 1). And we don't even deal with female
              > murder.
              > The Mishna or Josephus' bloomy anecdotes (Ant 12.256; 18.79ff.) as
              > reliable
              > sources to understand history or a phenomenon at its periphery is
              > somewhat
              > wide of the mark though, and thus to be rejected.
              > However, reading Martin Hengel_Crucifixion, Fortress Press 1977
              > would not be
              > amiss.
              >
              > regards,
              > Dierk van den Berg
              > RU Nijmegen, NL
              > -------------------------------------------
              > kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "ANTONIO LOMBATTI" <antonio.lombatti@...>
              > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 11:14 PM
              > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
              >
              > > These are the only two sources about women crucifixion that I know
              > > of, apart from the Jewish ones quoted by Joe (Tractate Mourning 2.11
              > > and Sanhedrin 6.5) in this article:
              > >
              > > http://www.centuryone.org/crucifixion2.html
              > >
              > > Antonio
              > > antonio lombatti
              >
              >
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Dierk van den Berg
              Antonio, we simply have to distinguish between antiquity and medieval times not to draw misleading conclusions (e.g. the crucified Sophia ) from events of the
              Message 6 of 20 , May 3, 2007
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                Antonio,
                we simply have to distinguish between antiquity and medieval times
                not to draw misleading conclusions (e.g. 'the crucified Sophia') from
                events of the Dark Ages. And thanks for the ref. to Fitzmyer.

                regards,
                Dierk van den Berg
                RU Nijmegen, NL
                -------------------------------------------
                kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)



                --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Despite the wrong belief that after Constantine crucifixion was
                not
                > longer used as death punishment (the Christian world during Middle
                > Ages still practiced crucifixion, see ALBERTUS MAGNUS,_Super
                > Matthaeum_, V, 22), I've found many Palestinians crucified people
                by
                > Christians and two more late sources about women crucified by
                Arabs
                > in the VIIth century.
                >
                > A Nestorian monk tells in his _Chronicon anonymum_ (Corpus
                Scriptorum
                > Christianorum Orientalium [CSCO], vol. 1, 1, p. 34) that in the
                > Manichean village of Shatru even the women were crucified (zqaph).
                > And John of Ephesus (Eccl. Hist. III, 19, CSCO, vol. 105, p. 146)
                > recalls the crucifixion (zqipho') of Monophiste nuns.
                >
                > And, beside the work of Hengel, a masterpiece about crucifixion
                has
                > been written by J.A. FITZMYER, _Crucifixion in Ancient Palestine,
                > Qumran Literature and the New Testament_, "Catholical Biblical
                > Quarterly", 40 (1978), pp. 493-513, even if he doesn't report
                cases
                > of crucified women.
                >
                > Antonio
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Il giorno 03/mag/07, alle ore 16:39, Dierk van den Berg ha scritto:
                >
                > > The supplicium de more maiorum, the punishment in which the the
                > > accused was
                > > beaten to death with rods is the origin behind the later
                supplicium
                > > servile
                > > under constitutional law, infelici arbori reste suspendito,
                > > mechanism of
                > > execution based upon the Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis (BC
                82),
                > > commonly known from the Spartacus uprising. Crucifixion as an
                > > instrument of
                > > bilateral terror is first known from the Three Punic Wars, and
                we
                > > see a
                > > Roman adoption of Carthaginian handling of treachery, first
                > > exercised by
                > > Scipio who crucified the Roman perfugae after the fall of
                Carthage.
                > > Apparently during the wars the Roman propaganda had created the
                > > stigma of
                > > the Roman woman crucified together with her babies, probably an
                > > allegory of
                > > the Roman lupa and Romulus and Remus, reflecting the status quo
                of
                > > a Roman
                > > state under heavy pressure. However, Josephus (resp. his source)
                > > has used
                > > this stigma of foreign terror to describe the situation in
                > > Jerusalem when
                > > the Jews first came into contact with the brutality of ex-
                Ptolemaic
                > > Macedonian/Kittim/Cyriote mercenaries of the Seleucid King on
                his
                > > return
                > > from the failed expedition to Egypt in 168/7 BC. It is
                sufficiently
                > > known
                > > from history that a mortified (or beaten) army on the retreat is
                by
                > > far more
                > > brutal against NOCs than a victorious one on the advance. And as
                a
                > > classical
                > > sign of experienced brutality directed against the substance of
                a
                > > people I'd
                > > expect the allegory of the crucified woman (esp. of a pregnant
                one
                > > or mother
                > > of babies) again in the days of the Nero-redivivus Domitian,
                btw.
                > > the minted
                > > Hebrew 666 transliteration, simply to describe the common fear of
                a
                > > genocide. Actually I take the crucified woman for an allegory, a
                > > symbol of
                > > description, rather for a literally to be taken fact. Not by
                chance
                > > the
                > > murder by a woman was committed in the Empire by crushing the
                head
                > > with a
                > > club (Val. Max. 7.1; Amb. 1). And we don't even deal with female
                > > murder.
                > > The Mishna or Josephus' bloomy anecdotes (Ant 12.256; 18.79ff.)
                as
                > > reliable
                > > sources to understand history or a phenomenon at its periphery
                is
                > > somewhat
                > > wide of the mark though, and thus to be rejected.
                > > However, reading Martin Hengel_Crucifixion, Fortress Press 1977
                > > would not be
                > > amiss.
                > >
                > > regards,
                > > Dierk van den Berg
                > > RU Nijmegen, NL
                > > -------------------------------------------
                > > kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)
                > >
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: "ANTONIO LOMBATTI" <antonio.lombatti@...>
                > > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                > > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 11:14 PM
                > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
                > >
                > > > These are the only two sources about women crucifixion that I
                know
                > > > of, apart from the Jewish ones quoted by Joe (Tractate Mourning
                2.11
                > > > and Sanhedrin 6.5) in this article:
                > > >
                > > > http://www.centuryone.org/crucifixion2.html
                > > >
                > > > Antonio
                > > > antonio lombatti
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • Antonio Lombatti
                Sorry, you re right. I ve only searched for sources about crucified women. And this had lead me to AD 600. Best regards, Antonio ... [Non-text portions of this
                Message 7 of 20 , May 3, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Sorry, you're right. I've only searched for sources about crucified
                  women. And this had lead me to AD 600.

                  Best regards,
                  Antonio



                  Il giorno 03/mag/07, alle ore 19:51, Dierk van den Berg ha scritto:

                  > Antonio,
                  > we simply have to distinguish between antiquity and medieval times
                  > not to draw misleading conclusions (e.g. 'the crucified Sophia') from
                  > events of the Dark Ages. And thanks for the ref. to Fitzmyer.
                  >
                  > regards,
                  > Dierk van den Berg
                  > RU Nijmegen, NL
                  > -------------------------------------------
                  > kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)
                  >
                  > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Despite the wrong belief that after Constantine crucifixion was
                  > not
                  > > longer used as death punishment (the Christian world during Middle
                  > > Ages still practiced crucifixion, see ALBERTUS MAGNUS,_Super
                  > > Matthaeum_, V, 22), I've found many Palestinians crucified people
                  > by
                  > > Christians and two more late sources about women crucified by
                  > Arabs
                  > > in the VIIth century.
                  > >
                  > > A Nestorian monk tells in his _Chronicon anonymum_ (Corpus
                  > Scriptorum
                  > > Christianorum Orientalium [CSCO], vol. 1, 1, p. 34) that in the
                  > > Manichean village of Shatru even the women were crucified (zqaph).
                  > > And John of Ephesus (Eccl. Hist. III, 19, CSCO, vol. 105, p. 146)
                  > > recalls the crucifixion (zqipho') of Monophiste nuns.
                  > >
                  > > And, beside the work of Hengel, a masterpiece about crucifixion
                  > has
                  > > been written by J.A. FITZMYER, _Crucifixion in Ancient Palestine,
                  > > Qumran Literature and the New Testament_, "Catholical Biblical
                  > > Quarterly", 40 (1978), pp. 493-513, even if he doesn't report
                  > cases
                  > > of crucified women.
                  > >
                  > > Antonio
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Il giorno 03/mag/07, alle ore 16:39, Dierk van den Berg ha scritto:
                  > >
                  > > > The supplicium de more maiorum, the punishment in which the the
                  > > > accused was
                  > > > beaten to death with rods is the origin behind the later
                  > supplicium
                  > > > servile
                  > > > under constitutional law, infelici arbori reste suspendito,
                  > > > mechanism of
                  > > > execution based upon the Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis (BC
                  > 82),
                  > > > commonly known from the Spartacus uprising. Crucifixion as an
                  > > > instrument of
                  > > > bilateral terror is first known from the Three Punic Wars, and
                  > we
                  > > > see a
                  > > > Roman adoption of Carthaginian handling of treachery, first
                  > > > exercised by
                  > > > Scipio who crucified the Roman perfugae after the fall of
                  > Carthage.
                  > > > Apparently during the wars the Roman propaganda had created the
                  > > > stigma of
                  > > > the Roman woman crucified together with her babies, probably an
                  > > > allegory of
                  > > > the Roman lupa and Romulus and Remus, reflecting the status quo
                  > of
                  > > > a Roman
                  > > > state under heavy pressure. However, Josephus (resp. his source)
                  > > > has used
                  > > > this stigma of foreign terror to describe the situation in
                  > > > Jerusalem when
                  > > > the Jews first came into contact with the brutality of ex-
                  > Ptolemaic
                  > > > Macedonian/Kittim/Cyriote mercenaries of the Seleucid King on
                  > his
                  > > > return
                  > > > from the failed expedition to Egypt in 168/7 BC. It is
                  > sufficiently
                  > > > known
                  > > > from history that a mortified (or beaten) army on the retreat is
                  > by
                  > > > far more
                  > > > brutal against NOCs than a victorious one on the advance. And as
                  > a
                  > > > classical
                  > > > sign of experienced brutality directed against the substance of
                  > a
                  > > > people I'd
                  > > > expect the allegory of the crucified woman (esp. of a pregnant
                  > one
                  > > > or mother
                  > > > of babies) again in the days of the Nero-redivivus Domitian,
                  > btw.
                  > > > the minted
                  > > > Hebrew 666 transliteration, simply to describe the common fear of
                  > a
                  > > > genocide. Actually I take the crucified woman for an allegory, a
                  > > > symbol of
                  > > > description, rather for a literally to be taken fact. Not by
                  > chance
                  > > > the
                  > > > murder by a woman was committed in the Empire by crushing the
                  > head
                  > > > with a
                  > > > club (Val. Max. 7.1; Amb. 1). And we don't even deal with female
                  > > > murder.
                  > > > The Mishna or Josephus' bloomy anecdotes (Ant 12.256; 18.79ff.)
                  > as
                  > > > reliable
                  > > > sources to understand history or a phenomenon at its periphery
                  > is
                  > > > somewhat
                  > > > wide of the mark though, and thus to be rejected.
                  > > > However, reading Martin Hengel_Crucifixion, Fortress Press 1977
                  > > > would not be
                  > > > amiss.
                  > > >
                  > > > regards,
                  > > > Dierk van den Berg
                  > > > RU Nijmegen, NL
                  > > > -------------------------------------------
                  > > > kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)
                  > > >
                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > From: "ANTONIO LOMBATTI" <antonio.lombatti@...>
                  > > > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 11:14 PM
                  > > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
                  > > >
                  > > > > These are the only two sources about women crucifixion that I
                  > know
                  > > > > of, apart from the Jewish ones quoted by Joe (Tractate Mourning
                  > 2.11
                  > > > > and Sanhedrin 6.5) in this article:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > http://www.centuryone.org/crucifixion2.html
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Antonio
                  > > > > antonio lombatti
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Antonio Lombatti
                  I ve found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National Archaeological Museum. Even if I m a bit doubtful about its interpretation, the
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 9, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National
                    Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
                    interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
                    crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).

                    I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person was
                    hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
                    been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the thesis
                    that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
                    by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
                    abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
                    principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
                    l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).

                    However, this might be the only representation of a hung (crucified?)
                    woman that I'm aware of.

                    I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at

                    http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg

                    Antonio Lombatti


                    P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
                    couple of days. (:-)




                    Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:

                    > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a woman
                    > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
                    > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
                    >
                    > Peter Miscall
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Trudy Kawami
                    Antonio, I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or whatever. It would
                    Message 9 of 20 , May 10, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Antonio,
                      I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or whatever. It would be good to look at the original object before offering an interpretation. At best the style is 4th cent. BCE, not 5th. Where did you find the drawing? The woman looks like she is dancing, not being hung on a tree; there are baskets, clothes, jewlery and other figures (seated at rt?) so the section you posted does not give the whole scene.I doubtg whether the scene has anything to do with crucifixions.
                      Trudy Kawami

                      ________________________________

                      From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Antonio Lombatti
                      Sent: Wed 5/9/2007 12:12 PM
                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion



                      I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National
                      Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
                      interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
                      crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).

                      I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person was
                      hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
                      been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the thesis
                      that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
                      by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
                      abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
                      principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
                      l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).

                      However, this might be the only representation of a hung (crucified?)
                      woman that I'm aware of.

                      I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at

                      http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg <http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg>

                      Antonio Lombatti

                      P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
                      couple of days. (:-)

                      Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:

                      > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a woman
                      > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
                      > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
                      >
                      > Peter Miscall
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Antonio Lombatti
                      Trudy, I have no expertise in ancient Art History, therefore I posted the image so that some of could judge it. Probably, it has nothing to do with
                      Message 10 of 20 , May 11, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Trudy,

                        I have no expertise in ancient Art History, therefore I posted the
                        image so that some of could judge it. Probably, it has nothing to do
                        with crucifixion, as you suggested; however, I think that she (I mean
                        the hung woman) should not be dancing with her wrists tied and
                        completely naked.

                        The picture is labelled and dated as I wrote in my previous post.
                        However, I have lots of doubts about it. I've seen it in an Italian
                        paper on death penalties in Antiquity and as for the above image it
                        says it comes from M. Torelli _Etruria. Guida Archeologica_. Roma:
                        Laterza, 1993.

                        There are two more interesting photos (even if they don't refer to
                        women crucifixion):

                        http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/6908/cruxpl5.jpg


                        1. (Above) Bas-relief of the Palace of Sennacherib at Niniveh
                        depicting the taking of Lachish (701/689-688); it showa two men
                        "crucified" on boards and flayed.
                        2. (Below) Assyrian crucifixion by means of nails and rings


                        Comments and suggestions are all welcome, since I'm finishing a paper
                        on crucifixion.

                        Antonio Lombatti


                        Il giorno 11/mag/07, alle ore 04:36, Trudy Kawami ha scritto:

                        > Antonio,
                        > I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing
                        > after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or
                        > whatever. It would be good to look at the original object before
                        > offering an interpretation. At best the style is 4th cent. BCE, not
                        > 5th. Where did you find the drawing? The woman looks like she is
                        > dancing, not being hung on a tree; there are baskets, clothes,
                        > jewlery and other figures (seated at rt?) so the section you posted
                        > does not give the whole scene.I doubtg whether the scene has
                        > anything to do with crucifixions.
                        > Trudy Kawami
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        >
                        > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Antonio Lombatti
                        > Sent: Wed 5/9/2007 12:12 PM
                        > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
                        >
                        > I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National
                        > Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
                        > interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
                        > crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).
                        >
                        > I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person was
                        > hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
                        > been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the thesis
                        > that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
                        > by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
                        > abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
                        > principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
                        > l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).
                        >
                        > However, this might be the only representation of a hung (crucified?)
                        > woman that I'm aware of.
                        >
                        > I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at
                        >
                        > http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg<http://
                        > img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg>
                        >
                        > Antonio Lombatti
                        >
                        > P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
                        > couple of days. (:-)
                        >
                        > Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:
                        >
                        > > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a
                        > woman
                        > > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
                        > > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
                        > >
                        > > Peter Miscall
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • sbudin@camden.rutgers.edu
                        The naked dancer, plus the box, alabastron, etc. seems more reminiscent of initiation into the mysteries (of Dionysos?) than crucifixion. A rather late
                        Message 11 of 20 , May 11, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          The naked dancer, plus the box, alabastron, etc. seems more reminiscent of
                          initiation into the mysteries (of Dionysos?) than crucifixion. A rather late
                          comparandum would be the Villa of the Mysteries at Pompeii. Here there is at
                          least one mostly naked girl being whipped, and a naked female dancer with
                          cistra.
                          Perhaps this is a religious scene?

                          -Stephanie Budin



                          Quoting Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...>:

                          > Trudy,
                          >
                          > I have no expertise in ancient Art History, therefore I posted the
                          > image so that some of could judge it. Probably, it has nothing to do
                          > with crucifixion, as you suggested; however, I think that she (I mean
                          > the hung woman) should not be dancing with her wrists tied and
                          > completely naked.
                          >
                          > The picture is labelled and dated as I wrote in my previous post.
                          > However, I have lots of doubts about it. I've seen it in an Italian
                          > paper on death penalties in Antiquity and as for the above image it
                          > says it comes from M. Torelli _Etruria. Guida Archeologica_. Roma:
                          > Laterza, 1993.
                          >
                          > There are two more interesting photos (even if they don't refer to
                          > women crucifixion):
                          >
                          > http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/6908/cruxpl5.jpg
                          >
                          >
                          > 1. (Above) Bas-relief of the Palace of Sennacherib at Niniveh
                          > depicting the taking of Lachish (701/689-688); it showa two men
                          > "crucified" on boards and flayed.
                          > 2. (Below) Assyrian crucifixion by means of nails and rings
                          >
                          >
                          > Comments and suggestions are all welcome, since I'm finishing a paper
                          > on crucifixion.
                          >
                          > Antonio Lombatti
                          >
                          >
                          > Il giorno 11/mag/07, alle ore 04:36, Trudy Kawami ha scritto:
                          >
                          > > Antonio,
                          > > I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing
                          > > after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or
                          > > whatever. It would be good to look at the original object before
                          > > offering an interpretation. At best the style is 4th cent. BCE, not
                          > > 5th. Where did you find the drawing? The woman looks like she is
                          > > dancing, not being hung on a tree; there are baskets, clothes,
                          > > jewlery and other figures (seated at rt?) so the section you posted
                          > > does not give the whole scene.I doubtg whether the scene has
                          > > anything to do with crucifixions.
                          > > Trudy Kawami
                          > >
                          > > ________________________________
                          > >
                          > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Antonio Lombatti
                          > > Sent: Wed 5/9/2007 12:12 PM
                          > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
                          > >
                          > > I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National
                          > > Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
                          > > interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
                          > > crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).
                          > >
                          > > I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person was
                          > > hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
                          > > been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the thesis
                          > > that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
                          > > by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
                          > > abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
                          > > principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
                          > > l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).
                          > >
                          > > However, this might be the only representation of a hung (crucified?)
                          > > woman that I'm aware of.
                          > >
                          > > I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at
                          > >
                          > > http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg<http://
                          > > img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg>
                          > >
                          > > Antonio Lombatti
                          > >
                          > > P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
                          > > couple of days. (:-)
                          > >
                          > > Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:
                          > >
                          > > > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a
                          > > woman
                          > > > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
                          > > > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
                          > > >
                          > > > Peter Miscall
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          "Maybe we can link up with someone who’s meditating and download enlightenment!"
                          -Tachikoma
                        • nick smith
                          The two pics shown dipict the Assyrian king Ansasurpal (appologies for the spelling) flaying POWs after campaining in northen Mesopotamia.The POWs are soldiers
                          Message 12 of 20 , May 12, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            The two pics shown dipict the Assyrian king Ansasurpal (appologies for the spelling) flaying POWs after campaining in northen Mesopotamia.The POWs are soldiers being flayed in front of their children.I'll try find a clearer reference forb the image and post,but these images also have nothing to do with crucifixion.

                            Hope this helps,

                            Nick Smith

                            Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...> wrote:
                            Trudy,

                            I have no expertise in ancient Art History, therefore I posted the
                            image so that some of could judge it. Probably, it has nothing to do
                            with crucifixion, as you suggested; however, I think that she (I mean
                            the hung woman) should not be dancing with her wrists tied and
                            completely naked.

                            The picture is labelled and dated as I wrote in my previous post.
                            However, I have lots of doubts about it. I've seen it in an Italian
                            paper on death penalties in Antiquity and as for the above image it
                            says it comes from M. Torelli _Etruria. Guida Archeologica_. Roma:
                            Laterza, 1993.

                            There are two more interesting photos (even if they don't refer to
                            women crucifixion):

                            http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/6908/cruxpl5.jpg

                            1. (Above) Bas-relief of the Palace of Sennacherib at Niniveh
                            depicting the taking of Lachish (701/689-688); it showa two men
                            "crucified" on boards and flayed.
                            2. (Below) Assyrian crucifixion by means of nails and rings

                            Comments and suggestions are all welcome, since I'm finishing a paper
                            on crucifixion.

                            Antonio Lombatti

                            Il giorno 11/mag/07, alle ore 04:36, Trudy Kawami ha scritto:

                            > Antonio,
                            > I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing
                            > after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or
                            > whatever. It would be good to look at the original object before
                            > offering an interpretation. At best the style is 4th cent. BCE, not
                            > 5th. Where did you find the drawing? The woman looks like she is
                            > dancing, not being hung on a tree; there are baskets, clothes,
                            > jewlery and other figures (seated at rt?) so the section you posted
                            > does not give the whole scene.I doubtg whether the scene has
                            > anything to do with crucifixions.
                            > Trudy Kawami
                            >
                            > ________________________________
                            >
                            > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Antonio Lombatti
                            > Sent: Wed 5/9/2007 12:12 PM
                            > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
                            >
                            > I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National
                            > Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
                            > interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
                            > crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).
                            >
                            > I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person was
                            > hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
                            > been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the thesis
                            > that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
                            > by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
                            > abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
                            > principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
                            > l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).
                            >
                            > However, this might be the only representation of a hung (crucified?)
                            > woman that I'm aware of.
                            >
                            > I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at
                            >
                            > http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg<http://
                            > img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg>
                            >
                            > Antonio Lombatti
                            >
                            > P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
                            > couple of days. (:-)
                            >
                            > Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:
                            >
                            > > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a
                            > woman
                            > > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
                            > > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
                            > >
                            > > Peter Miscall
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                            ---------------------------------
                            The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider.

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Antonio Lombatti
                            Nick, thanks for your opinion. Both images are listed as crucifixions by P. Vitale, _Crocifissione_. Phaidon: Roma, 2005, who quotes J.J. Collins,_Archaeology
                            Message 13 of 20 , May 12, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Nick,

                              thanks for your opinion. Both images are listed as crucifixions by P.
                              Vitale, _Crocifissione_. Phaidon: Roma, 2005, who quotes J.J.
                              Collins,_Archaeology of the Crucifixion_. in "Catholical Biblical
                              Quarterly", 1 (1939), p. 160. As I said I am not an art historian;
                              however, in the second drawing, one can clearly see nails through the
                              victim's wrists. Probably, there were nailed in order to flay them
                              better.

                              Antonio Lombatti



                              Il giorno 12/mag/07, alle ore 20:23, nick smith ha scritto:

                              > The two pics shown dipict the Assyrian king Ansasurpal (appologies
                              > for the spelling) flaying POWs after campaining in northen
                              > Mesopotamia.The POWs are soldiers being flayed in front of their
                              > children.I'll try find a clearer reference forb the image and
                              > post,but these images also have nothing to do with crucifixion.
                              >
                              > Hope this helps,
                              >
                              > Nick Smith
                              >
                              > Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...> wrote:
                              > Trudy,
                              >
                              > I have no expertise in ancient Art History, therefore I posted the
                              > image so that some of could judge it. Probably, it has nothing to do
                              > with crucifixion, as you suggested; however, I think that she (I mean
                              > the hung woman) should not be dancing with her wrists tied and
                              > completely naked.
                              >
                              > The picture is labelled and dated as I wrote in my previous post.
                              > However, I have lots of doubts about it. I've seen it in an Italian
                              > paper on death penalties in Antiquity and as for the above image it
                              > says it comes from M. Torelli _Etruria. Guida Archeologica_. Roma:
                              > Laterza, 1993.
                              >
                              > There are two more interesting photos (even if they don't refer to
                              > women crucifixion):
                              >
                              > http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/6908/cruxpl5.jpg
                              >
                              > 1. (Above) Bas-relief of the Palace of Sennacherib at Niniveh
                              > depicting the taking of Lachish (701/689-688); it showa two men
                              > "crucified" on boards and flayed.
                              > 2. (Below) Assyrian crucifixion by means of nails and rings
                              >
                              > Comments and suggestions are all welcome, since I'm finishing a paper
                              > on crucifixion.
                              >
                              > Antonio Lombatti
                              >
                              > Il giorno 11/mag/07, alle ore 04:36, Trudy Kawami ha scritto:
                              >
                              > > Antonio,
                              > > I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing
                              > > after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or
                              > > whatever. It would be good to look at the original object before
                              > > offering an interpretation. At best the style is 4th cent. BCE, not
                              > > 5th. Where did you find the drawing? The woman looks like she is
                              > > dancing, not being hung on a tree; there are baskets, clothes,
                              > > jewlery and other figures (seated at rt?) so the section you posted
                              > > does not give the whole scene.I doubtg whether the scene has
                              > > anything to do with crucifixions.
                              > > Trudy Kawami
                              > >
                              > > ________________________________
                              > >
                              > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Antonio Lombatti
                              > > Sent: Wed 5/9/2007 12:12 PM
                              > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
                              > >
                              > > I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina
                              > National
                              > > Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
                              > > interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
                              > > crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).
                              > >
                              > > I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person
                              > was
                              > > hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
                              > > been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the
                              > thesis
                              > > that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
                              > > by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
                              > > abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
                              > > principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
                              > > l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).
                              > >
                              > > However, this might be the only representation of a hung
                              > (crucified?)
                              > > woman that I'm aware of.
                              > >
                              > > I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at
                              > >
                              > > http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg<http://
                              > > img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg>
                              > >
                              > > Antonio Lombatti
                              > >
                              > > P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
                              > > couple of days. (:-)
                              > >
                              > > Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:
                              > >
                              > > > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a
                              > > woman
                              > > > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
                              > > > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
                              > > >
                              > > > Peter Miscall
                              > > >
                              > > >
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                            • leeedgartyler@cox.net
                              ... Hello, Antonio, That s quite likely true, as victims of extraordinarily painful executions were often nailed in place first, but I would not classify such
                              Message 14 of 20 , May 12, 2007
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                                ---- Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...> wrote:
                                > Nick,
                                >
                                > thanks for your opinion. Both images are listed as crucifixions by P.
                                > Vitale, _Crocifissione_. Phaidon: Roma, 2005, who quotes J.J.
                                > Collins,_Archaeology of the Crucifixion_. in "Catholical Biblical
                                > Quarterly", 1 (1939), p. 160. As I said I am not an art historian;
                                > however, in the second drawing, one can clearly see nails through the
                                > victim's wrists. Probably, there were nailed in order to flay them
                                > better.
                                >
                                > Antonio Lombatti
                                >

                                Hello, Antonio,

                                That's quite likely true, as victims of extraordinarily painful executions were often nailed in place first, but I would not classify such things as crucifixions. We're reliably informed by ancient sources that victims of burnings were often nailed to stakes, and pirates captured by the Imperial Japanese navies were nailed to the decks of their ships before being whipped to death. Obviously, these executions were not by crucifixion. As Nick notes, the executions depicted appear to be by flaying.

                                The salient feature of crucifixion is the nailing of the victim to a cross, after which gravity does its insidious work to kill him. (I've seen it said that they were sometimes tied to the cross, but have yet to find an ancient source to support this.) Executions by flaying, beating, or burning are another matter, even if nails were involved.

                                best,

                                Ed Tyler
                              • Antonio Lombatti
                                Ed, thanks for your observations. Since there s no agreement, I ll write that victims were nailed (not crucified) and then tortured. J. Fitzmyer and E. Puech
                                Message 15 of 20 , May 13, 2007
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                                  Ed,

                                  thanks for your observations. Since there's no agreement, I'll write
                                  that victims were nailed (not crucified) and then tortured. J.
                                  Fitzmyer and E. Puech thought that even the OT and qumranic TLH
                                  referred to crucifixion even if the texts do not clearly say that
                                  victims were nailed to a wooden beam (Deut. 21:22-23, 4QpNah and
                                  11QTemple - J.M. Baumgarten,_Does TLH in the Temple Scroll Refer to
                                  Crucifixion?_. in "Journal of Biblical Literature" 91 [1972], pp.
                                  472-481 and E. Puech, _Notes sur 11Q et 4Q524. A propos de la
                                  crucifixion dans le Rouleau et dans le Judaisme_. in "Revue de
                                  Qumran" 69 [1997], pp. 109-124).

                                  The verb "talah" appears 30 times in the OT and it seems to have a
                                  variety of possible translations (at least in Italian): raise,
                                  suspend an oject, hang from a scaffold, find oneself suspended with
                                  the mind (F. Parente,_Talah 'al 'es: una norma di diritto penale
                                  biblico_. in "Studi classici e orientali" 27 [1977], pp. 79-137). I
                                  would include all death punishments by "hanging alive" as crucifixion
                                  (even the Aramaic SLB, see J. Levy,_Woerterbuch ueber die Talmudim
                                  und Midraschchim_. Harz: Berlin, 1924, 4. Band, p. 189 "SLB=kreuzigen").

                                  So, considering that the images I've posted before could or could not
                                  refer to crucifixion in the sense how today the verb is understood,
                                  the first representations of crucifixions that we have today are two
                                  Italian graffiti, one found near Rome (AD 250) and the other one in
                                  Pozzuoli (AD 100), and an Egyptian amulet (AD 200):


                                  Pozzuoli graffito
                                  http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/6475/pozzuolihv3.jpg

                                  Alexamenos worshipping his God (Jesus)
                                  http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/6682/alexmx9.jpg

                                  Egyptian amulet
                                  http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7995/egittool1.jpg


                                  Moreover, the Pozzuoli graffito is our earliest iconographic source
                                  about crucifixion (I mean, nailed or tied to a wooden beam). On a T-
                                  shaped cross ("crux commissa" or "crux humilis") is a victim depicted
                                  from behind. There is no evidence of a "suppedeaneum". The victim is
                                  not naked but was clothed with an animal skin (?) (also Tacitus wrote
                                  of condemned men dressed in animal skins; _Annales_, 15,44; 2,13,1:
                                  "Ferarum tergist contecti", "contectus umeros ferina pelle").
                                  Perhaps, this was done to attract te animals freed in the circus and
                                  thus end up torn pieces as described in the mime of the _Laureolus_
                                  (see Martial's _Spect._ 7 on Latin crucifixion shows).

                                  As for the Pozzuoli crucifixion graffito, there are two different
                                  interpretations. A. Maiuri says it depicts Jesus (_La Campania al
                                  tempo dell'approdo di S. Paolo_. in "Studi Romani", 6 [1961], p.
                                  135), while M. Guarducci is of the opinion that it represents a slave
                                  woman, as the figure has long hair and wearing a tunic (not an animal
                                  skin). Moreover, she identified an inscription over the victim's
                                  head: ALCIMILLA (_Iscrizioni greche e latine in una Taberna di
                                  Pozzuoli_. _Acta of the Fifth Epigraphic Congress_. IPS: Roma, 1967,
                                  pp. 219-223).



                                  Antonio Lombatti


                                  Il giorno 13/mag/07, alle ore 01:53, leeedgartyler@... ha scritto:

                                  >
                                  > ---- Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...> wrote:
                                  > > Nick,
                                  > >
                                  > > thanks for your opinion. Both images are listed as crucifixions
                                  > by P.
                                  > > Vitale, _Crocifissione_. Phaidon: Roma, 2005, who quotes J.J.
                                  > > Collins,_Archaeology of the Crucifixion_. in "Catholical Biblical
                                  > > Quarterly", 1 (1939), p. 160. As I said I am not an art historian;
                                  > > however, in the second drawing, one can clearly see nails through
                                  > the
                                  > > victim's wrists. Probably, there were nailed in order to flay them
                                  > > better.
                                  > >
                                  > > Antonio Lombatti
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > Hello, Antonio,
                                  >
                                  > That's quite likely true, as victims of extraordinarily painful
                                  > executions were often nailed in place first, but I would not
                                  > classify such things as crucifixions. We're reliably informed by
                                  > ancient sources that victims of burnings were often nailed to
                                  > stakes, and pirates captured by the Imperial Japanese navies were
                                  > nailed to the decks of their ships before being whipped to death.
                                  > Obviously, these executions were not by crucifixion. As Nick notes,
                                  > the executions depicted appear to be by flaying.
                                  >
                                  > The salient feature of crucifixion is the nailing of the victim to
                                  > a cross, after which gravity does its insidious work to kill him.
                                  > (I've seen it said that they were sometimes tied to the cross, but
                                  > have yet to find an ancient source to support this.) Executions by
                                  > flaying, beating, or burning are another matter, even if nails were
                                  > involved.
                                  >
                                  > best,
                                  >
                                  > Ed Tyler
                                  >
                                  >



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