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Crucifixion

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  • pierredarwin
    A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a woman on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so, was this often?
    Message 1 of 20 , Apr 29, 2007
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      A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a woman
      on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
      was this often? Any help will be appreciated.

      Peter Miscall
    • ANTONIO LOMBATTI
      Hi, I remember of an episode told by a Roman chronicler that he saw women crucified with their faces turned towards the wood in order not to show their
      Message 2 of 20 , Apr 30, 2007
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        Hi,

        I remember of an episode told by a Roman chronicler that he saw women
        crucified with their faces turned towards the wood in order not to
        show their intimate parts. It happened in Rome around 150 b.C.

        If you need more detailed information I'll search the exact source
        and quotation in my books.


        Antonio
        antonio lombatti



        Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:

        > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a woman
        > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
        > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
        >
        > Peter Miscall
        >
        >
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Joe Zias
        Yes they did according to sources. Joe pierredarwin wrote: A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a woman on the
        Message 3 of 20 , Apr 30, 2007
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          Yes they did according to sources.
          Joe

          pierredarwin <Docmiscall@...> wrote:
          A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a woman
          on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
          was this often? Any help will be appreciated.

          Peter Miscall






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Dierk van den Berg
          What sources, Joe? Dierk van den Berg ... kill nosing dash irate law-maw (syrah 3.185) *all living is pervaded by the taste of death* [Momentum of Shiite
          Message 4 of 20 , Apr 30, 2007
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            What sources, Joe?

            Dierk van den Berg
            -------------------------------------------
            kill nosing dash 'irate law-maw (syrah 3.185)
            *all living is pervaded by the taste of death*
            [Momentum of Shiite al-Made Messianism]



            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Joe Zias" <joezias@...>
            To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 4:37 PM
            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion


            > Yes they did according to sources.
            > Joe
            >
            > pierredarwin <Docmiscall@...> wrote:
            > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a
            > woman
            > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
            > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
            >
            > Peter Miscall
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Antonio Lombatti
            Maybe Joe has some other authors to quote... However, our best sourse is Flavius Josephus (Ant. Jud. 12:256): he tells us that women were crucified with their
            Message 5 of 20 , Apr 30, 2007
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              Maybe Joe has some other authors to quote...

              However, our best sourse is Flavius Josephus (Ant. Jud. 12:256): he tells us that women were crucified with their sons hanging about their necks. A for Rome, I have counted at least 15 different sources that describe crucifixionand crucified people. Paulus (Sent. 5.21.3-4) recalls the case of a woman being crucified with her face turned towards the wood of the cross for having questioned an astologer about the future of the emperor.

              Antonio Lombatti
            • Dierk van den Berg
              Actually I ve thought of Republican and early Imperial refs. linked to the Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis, and not of Julius Paulus De vaticinatoribus et
              Message 6 of 20 , Apr 30, 2007
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                Actually I've thought of Republican and early Imperial refs. linked to the
                Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis, and not of Julius Paulus' De
                vaticinatoribus
                et mathematicis in Sententiarum 5.21 (late 2nd c. CE) or the Antiochos IV
                anecdote in Jos Ant 12.256 that dals with the atrocity of the Seleucid King
                in
                the aftermath of the Days of Eleusis.
                However, thanks.

                Dierk van den Berg
                RU Nijmegen, NL
                -------------------------------------------
                kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)






                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Antonio Lombatti" <antonio.lombatti@...>
                To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 7:35 PM
                Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion


                > Maybe Joe has some other authors to quote...
                >
                > However, our best sourse is Flavius Josephus (Ant. Jud. 12:256): he tells
                > us that women were crucified with their sons hanging about their necks. A
                > for Rome, I have counted at least 15 different sources that describe
                > crucifixionand crucified people. Paulus (Sent. 5.21.3-4) recalls the case
                > of a woman being crucified with her face turned towards the wood of the
                > cross for having questioned an astologer about the future of the emperor.
                >
                > Antonio Lombatti
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • ANTONIO LOMBATTI
                These are the only two sources about women crucifixion that I know of, apart from the Jewish ones quoted by Joe (Tractate Mourning 2.11 and Sanhedrin 6.5) in
                Message 7 of 20 , Apr 30, 2007
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                  These are the only two sources about women crucifixion that I know
                  of, apart from the Jewish ones quoted by Joe (Tractate Mourning 2.11
                  and Sanhedrin 6.5) in this article:

                  http://www.centuryone.org/crucifixion2.html

                  Antonio
                  antonio lombatti


                  Il giorno 30/apr/07, alle ore 21:57, Dierk van den Berg ha scritto:

                  > Actually I've thought of Republican and early Imperial refs. linked
                  > to the
                  > Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis, and not of Julius Paulus' De
                  > vaticinatoribus
                  > et mathematicis in Sententiarum 5.21 (late 2nd c. CE) or the
                  > Antiochos IV
                  > anecdote in Jos Ant 12.256 that dals with the atrocity of the
                  > Seleucid King
                  > in
                  > the aftermath of the Days of Eleusis.
                  > However, thanks.
                  >
                  > Dierk van den Berg
                  > RU Nijmegen, NL
                  > -------------------------------------------
                  > kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Antonio Lombatti" <antonio.lombatti@...>
                  > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 7:35 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
                  >
                  > > Maybe Joe has some other authors to quote...
                  > >
                  > > However, our best sourse is Flavius Josephus (Ant. Jud. 12:256):
                  > he tells
                  > > us that women were crucified with their sons hanging about their
                  > necks. A
                  > > for Rome, I have counted at least 15 different sources that describe
                  > > crucifixionand crucified people. Paulus (Sent. 5.21.3-4) recalls
                  > the case
                  > > of a woman being crucified with her face turned towards the wood
                  > of the
                  > > cross for having questioned an astologer about the future of the
                  > emperor.
                  > >
                  > > Antonio Lombatti
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Joe Zias
                  Shalom, I m still aboad so you handling of this is greatly appreciated. Joe ANTONIO LOMBATTI wrote: These are the only two sources
                  Message 8 of 20 , May 1, 2007
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                    Shalom, I'm still aboad so you handling of this is greatly appreciated.
                    Joe

                    ANTONIO LOMBATTI <antonio.lombatti@...> wrote:
                    These are the only two sources about women crucifixion that I know
                    of, apart from the Jewish ones quoted by Joe (Tractate Mourning 2.11
                    and Sanhedrin 6.5) in this article:

                    http://www.centuryone.org/crucifixion2.html

                    Antonio
                    antonio lombatti

                    Il giorno 30/apr/07, alle ore 21:57, Dierk van den Berg ha scritto:

                    > Actually I've thought of Republican and early Imperial refs. linked
                    > to the
                    > Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis, and not of Julius Paulus' De
                    > vaticinatoribus
                    > et mathematicis in Sententiarum 5.21 (late 2nd c. CE) or the
                    > Antiochos IV
                    > anecdote in Jos Ant 12.256 that dals with the atrocity of the
                    > Seleucid King
                    > in
                    > the aftermath of the Days of Eleusis.
                    > However, thanks.
                    >
                    > Dierk van den Berg
                    > RU Nijmegen, NL
                    > -------------------------------------------
                    > kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Antonio Lombatti" <antonio.lombatti@...>
                    > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 7:35 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
                    >
                    > > Maybe Joe has some other authors to quote...
                    > >
                    > > However, our best sourse is Flavius Josephus (Ant. Jud. 12:256):
                    > he tells
                    > > us that women were crucified with their sons hanging about their
                    > necks. A
                    > > for Rome, I have counted at least 15 different sources that describe
                    > > crucifixionand crucified people. Paulus (Sent. 5.21.3-4) recalls
                    > the case
                    > > of a woman being crucified with her face turned towards the wood
                    > of the
                    > > cross for having questioned an astologer about the future of the
                    > emperor.
                    > >
                    > > Antonio Lombatti
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Dierk van den Berg
                    The supplicium de more maiorum, the punishment in which the the accused was beaten to death with rods is the origin behind the later supplicium servile under
                    Message 9 of 20 , May 3, 2007
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                      The supplicium de more maiorum, the punishment in which the the accused was
                      beaten to death with rods is the origin behind the later supplicium servile
                      under constitutional law, infelici arbori reste suspendito, mechanism of
                      execution based upon the Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis (BC 82),
                      commonly known from the Spartacus uprising. Crucifixion as an instrument of
                      bilateral terror is first known from the Three Punic Wars, and we see a
                      Roman adoption of Carthaginian handling of treachery, first exercised by
                      Scipio who crucified the Roman perfugae after the fall of Carthage.
                      Apparently during the wars the Roman propaganda had created the stigma of
                      the Roman woman crucified together with her babies, probably an allegory of
                      the Roman lupa and Romulus and Remus, reflecting the status quo of a Roman
                      state under heavy pressure. However, Josephus (resp. his source) has used
                      this stigma of foreign terror to describe the situation in Jerusalem when
                      the Jews first came into contact with the brutality of ex-Ptolemaic
                      Macedonian/Kittim/Cyriote mercenaries of the Seleucid King on his return
                      from the failed expedition to Egypt in 168/7 BC. It is sufficiently known
                      from history that a mortified (or beaten) army on the retreat is by far more
                      brutal against NOCs than a victorious one on the advance. And as a classical
                      sign of experienced brutality directed against the substance of a people I'd
                      expect the allegory of the crucified woman (esp. of a pregnant one or mother
                      of babies) again in the days of the Nero-redivivus Domitian, btw. the minted
                      Hebrew 666 transliteration, simply to describe the common fear of a
                      genocide. Actually I take the crucified woman for an allegory, a symbol of
                      description, rather for a literally to be taken fact. Not by chance the
                      murder by a woman was committed in the Empire by crushing the head with a
                      club (Val. Max. 7.1; Amb. 1). And we don't even deal with female murder.
                      The Mishna or Josephus' bloomy anecdotes (Ant 12.256; 18.79ff.) as reliable
                      sources to understand history or a phenomenon at its periphery is somewhat
                      wide of the mark though, and thus to be rejected.
                      However, reading Martin Hengel_Crucifixion, Fortress Press 1977 would not be
                      amiss.

                      regards,
                      Dierk van den Berg
                      RU Nijmegen, NL
                      -------------------------------------------
                      kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)



                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "ANTONIO LOMBATTI" <antonio.lombatti@...>
                      To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 11:14 PM
                      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion


                      > These are the only two sources about women crucifixion that I know
                      > of, apart from the Jewish ones quoted by Joe (Tractate Mourning 2.11
                      > and Sanhedrin 6.5) in this article:
                      >
                      > http://www.centuryone.org/crucifixion2.html
                      >
                      > Antonio
                      > antonio lombatti
                    • Antonio Lombatti
                      Despite the wrong belief that after Constantine crucifixion was not longer used as death punishment (the Christian world during Middle Ages still practiced
                      Message 10 of 20 , May 3, 2007
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                        Despite the wrong belief that after Constantine crucifixion was not
                        longer used as death punishment (the Christian world during Middle
                        Ages still practiced crucifixion, see ALBERTUS MAGNUS,_Super
                        Matthaeum_, V, 22), I've found many Palestinians crucified people by
                        Christians and two more late sources about women crucified by Arabs
                        in the VIIth century.

                        A Nestorian monk tells in his _Chronicon anonymum_ (Corpus Scriptorum
                        Christianorum Orientalium [CSCO], vol. 1, 1, p. 34) that in the
                        Manichean village of Shatru even the women were crucified (zqaph).
                        And John of Ephesus (Eccl. Hist. III, 19, CSCO, vol. 105, p. 146)
                        recalls the crucifixion (zqipho') of Monophiste nuns.

                        And, beside the work of Hengel, a masterpiece about crucifixion has
                        been written by J.A. FITZMYER, _Crucifixion in Ancient Palestine,
                        Qumran Literature and the New Testament_, "Catholical Biblical
                        Quarterly", 40 (1978), pp. 493-513, even if he doesn't report cases
                        of crucified women.

                        Antonio






                        Il giorno 03/mag/07, alle ore 16:39, Dierk van den Berg ha scritto:

                        > The supplicium de more maiorum, the punishment in which the the
                        > accused was
                        > beaten to death with rods is the origin behind the later supplicium
                        > servile
                        > under constitutional law, infelici arbori reste suspendito,
                        > mechanism of
                        > execution based upon the Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis (BC 82),
                        > commonly known from the Spartacus uprising. Crucifixion as an
                        > instrument of
                        > bilateral terror is first known from the Three Punic Wars, and we
                        > see a
                        > Roman adoption of Carthaginian handling of treachery, first
                        > exercised by
                        > Scipio who crucified the Roman perfugae after the fall of Carthage.
                        > Apparently during the wars the Roman propaganda had created the
                        > stigma of
                        > the Roman woman crucified together with her babies, probably an
                        > allegory of
                        > the Roman lupa and Romulus and Remus, reflecting the status quo of
                        > a Roman
                        > state under heavy pressure. However, Josephus (resp. his source)
                        > has used
                        > this stigma of foreign terror to describe the situation in
                        > Jerusalem when
                        > the Jews first came into contact with the brutality of ex-Ptolemaic
                        > Macedonian/Kittim/Cyriote mercenaries of the Seleucid King on his
                        > return
                        > from the failed expedition to Egypt in 168/7 BC. It is sufficiently
                        > known
                        > from history that a mortified (or beaten) army on the retreat is by
                        > far more
                        > brutal against NOCs than a victorious one on the advance. And as a
                        > classical
                        > sign of experienced brutality directed against the substance of a
                        > people I'd
                        > expect the allegory of the crucified woman (esp. of a pregnant one
                        > or mother
                        > of babies) again in the days of the Nero-redivivus Domitian, btw.
                        > the minted
                        > Hebrew 666 transliteration, simply to describe the common fear of a
                        > genocide. Actually I take the crucified woman for an allegory, a
                        > symbol of
                        > description, rather for a literally to be taken fact. Not by chance
                        > the
                        > murder by a woman was committed in the Empire by crushing the head
                        > with a
                        > club (Val. Max. 7.1; Amb. 1). And we don't even deal with female
                        > murder.
                        > The Mishna or Josephus' bloomy anecdotes (Ant 12.256; 18.79ff.) as
                        > reliable
                        > sources to understand history or a phenomenon at its periphery is
                        > somewhat
                        > wide of the mark though, and thus to be rejected.
                        > However, reading Martin Hengel_Crucifixion, Fortress Press 1977
                        > would not be
                        > amiss.
                        >
                        > regards,
                        > Dierk van den Berg
                        > RU Nijmegen, NL
                        > -------------------------------------------
                        > kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "ANTONIO LOMBATTI" <antonio.lombatti@...>
                        > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 11:14 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
                        >
                        > > These are the only two sources about women crucifixion that I know
                        > > of, apart from the Jewish ones quoted by Joe (Tractate Mourning 2.11
                        > > and Sanhedrin 6.5) in this article:
                        > >
                        > > http://www.centuryone.org/crucifixion2.html
                        > >
                        > > Antonio
                        > > antonio lombatti
                        >
                        >
                        >



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Dierk van den Berg
                        Antonio, we simply have to distinguish between antiquity and medieval times not to draw misleading conclusions (e.g. the crucified Sophia ) from events of the
                        Message 11 of 20 , May 3, 2007
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                          Antonio,
                          we simply have to distinguish between antiquity and medieval times
                          not to draw misleading conclusions (e.g. 'the crucified Sophia') from
                          events of the Dark Ages. And thanks for the ref. to Fitzmyer.

                          regards,
                          Dierk van den Berg
                          RU Nijmegen, NL
                          -------------------------------------------
                          kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)



                          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > Despite the wrong belief that after Constantine crucifixion was
                          not
                          > longer used as death punishment (the Christian world during Middle
                          > Ages still practiced crucifixion, see ALBERTUS MAGNUS,_Super
                          > Matthaeum_, V, 22), I've found many Palestinians crucified people
                          by
                          > Christians and two more late sources about women crucified by
                          Arabs
                          > in the VIIth century.
                          >
                          > A Nestorian monk tells in his _Chronicon anonymum_ (Corpus
                          Scriptorum
                          > Christianorum Orientalium [CSCO], vol. 1, 1, p. 34) that in the
                          > Manichean village of Shatru even the women were crucified (zqaph).
                          > And John of Ephesus (Eccl. Hist. III, 19, CSCO, vol. 105, p. 146)
                          > recalls the crucifixion (zqipho') of Monophiste nuns.
                          >
                          > And, beside the work of Hengel, a masterpiece about crucifixion
                          has
                          > been written by J.A. FITZMYER, _Crucifixion in Ancient Palestine,
                          > Qumran Literature and the New Testament_, "Catholical Biblical
                          > Quarterly", 40 (1978), pp. 493-513, even if he doesn't report
                          cases
                          > of crucified women.
                          >
                          > Antonio
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Il giorno 03/mag/07, alle ore 16:39, Dierk van den Berg ha scritto:
                          >
                          > > The supplicium de more maiorum, the punishment in which the the
                          > > accused was
                          > > beaten to death with rods is the origin behind the later
                          supplicium
                          > > servile
                          > > under constitutional law, infelici arbori reste suspendito,
                          > > mechanism of
                          > > execution based upon the Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis (BC
                          82),
                          > > commonly known from the Spartacus uprising. Crucifixion as an
                          > > instrument of
                          > > bilateral terror is first known from the Three Punic Wars, and
                          we
                          > > see a
                          > > Roman adoption of Carthaginian handling of treachery, first
                          > > exercised by
                          > > Scipio who crucified the Roman perfugae after the fall of
                          Carthage.
                          > > Apparently during the wars the Roman propaganda had created the
                          > > stigma of
                          > > the Roman woman crucified together with her babies, probably an
                          > > allegory of
                          > > the Roman lupa and Romulus and Remus, reflecting the status quo
                          of
                          > > a Roman
                          > > state under heavy pressure. However, Josephus (resp. his source)
                          > > has used
                          > > this stigma of foreign terror to describe the situation in
                          > > Jerusalem when
                          > > the Jews first came into contact with the brutality of ex-
                          Ptolemaic
                          > > Macedonian/Kittim/Cyriote mercenaries of the Seleucid King on
                          his
                          > > return
                          > > from the failed expedition to Egypt in 168/7 BC. It is
                          sufficiently
                          > > known
                          > > from history that a mortified (or beaten) army on the retreat is
                          by
                          > > far more
                          > > brutal against NOCs than a victorious one on the advance. And as
                          a
                          > > classical
                          > > sign of experienced brutality directed against the substance of
                          a
                          > > people I'd
                          > > expect the allegory of the crucified woman (esp. of a pregnant
                          one
                          > > or mother
                          > > of babies) again in the days of the Nero-redivivus Domitian,
                          btw.
                          > > the minted
                          > > Hebrew 666 transliteration, simply to describe the common fear of
                          a
                          > > genocide. Actually I take the crucified woman for an allegory, a
                          > > symbol of
                          > > description, rather for a literally to be taken fact. Not by
                          chance
                          > > the
                          > > murder by a woman was committed in the Empire by crushing the
                          head
                          > > with a
                          > > club (Val. Max. 7.1; Amb. 1). And we don't even deal with female
                          > > murder.
                          > > The Mishna or Josephus' bloomy anecdotes (Ant 12.256; 18.79ff.)
                          as
                          > > reliable
                          > > sources to understand history or a phenomenon at its periphery
                          is
                          > > somewhat
                          > > wide of the mark though, and thus to be rejected.
                          > > However, reading Martin Hengel_Crucifixion, Fortress Press 1977
                          > > would not be
                          > > amiss.
                          > >
                          > > regards,
                          > > Dierk van den Berg
                          > > RU Nijmegen, NL
                          > > -------------------------------------------
                          > > kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)
                          > >
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: "ANTONIO LOMBATTI" <antonio.lombatti@...>
                          > > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                          > > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 11:14 PM
                          > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
                          > >
                          > > > These are the only two sources about women crucifixion that I
                          know
                          > > > of, apart from the Jewish ones quoted by Joe (Tractate Mourning
                          2.11
                          > > > and Sanhedrin 6.5) in this article:
                          > > >
                          > > > http://www.centuryone.org/crucifixion2.html
                          > > >
                          > > > Antonio
                          > > > antonio lombatti
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                        • Antonio Lombatti
                          Sorry, you re right. I ve only searched for sources about crucified women. And this had lead me to AD 600. Best regards, Antonio ... [Non-text portions of this
                          Message 12 of 20 , May 3, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Sorry, you're right. I've only searched for sources about crucified
                            women. And this had lead me to AD 600.

                            Best regards,
                            Antonio



                            Il giorno 03/mag/07, alle ore 19:51, Dierk van den Berg ha scritto:

                            > Antonio,
                            > we simply have to distinguish between antiquity and medieval times
                            > not to draw misleading conclusions (e.g. 'the crucified Sophia') from
                            > events of the Dark Ages. And thanks for the ref. to Fitzmyer.
                            >
                            > regards,
                            > Dierk van den Berg
                            > RU Nijmegen, NL
                            > -------------------------------------------
                            > kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)
                            >
                            > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Despite the wrong belief that after Constantine crucifixion was
                            > not
                            > > longer used as death punishment (the Christian world during Middle
                            > > Ages still practiced crucifixion, see ALBERTUS MAGNUS,_Super
                            > > Matthaeum_, V, 22), I've found many Palestinians crucified people
                            > by
                            > > Christians and two more late sources about women crucified by
                            > Arabs
                            > > in the VIIth century.
                            > >
                            > > A Nestorian monk tells in his _Chronicon anonymum_ (Corpus
                            > Scriptorum
                            > > Christianorum Orientalium [CSCO], vol. 1, 1, p. 34) that in the
                            > > Manichean village of Shatru even the women were crucified (zqaph).
                            > > And John of Ephesus (Eccl. Hist. III, 19, CSCO, vol. 105, p. 146)
                            > > recalls the crucifixion (zqipho') of Monophiste nuns.
                            > >
                            > > And, beside the work of Hengel, a masterpiece about crucifixion
                            > has
                            > > been written by J.A. FITZMYER, _Crucifixion in Ancient Palestine,
                            > > Qumran Literature and the New Testament_, "Catholical Biblical
                            > > Quarterly", 40 (1978), pp. 493-513, even if he doesn't report
                            > cases
                            > > of crucified women.
                            > >
                            > > Antonio
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Il giorno 03/mag/07, alle ore 16:39, Dierk van den Berg ha scritto:
                            > >
                            > > > The supplicium de more maiorum, the punishment in which the the
                            > > > accused was
                            > > > beaten to death with rods is the origin behind the later
                            > supplicium
                            > > > servile
                            > > > under constitutional law, infelici arbori reste suspendito,
                            > > > mechanism of
                            > > > execution based upon the Lex Corn. de sicariis et veneficis (BC
                            > 82),
                            > > > commonly known from the Spartacus uprising. Crucifixion as an
                            > > > instrument of
                            > > > bilateral terror is first known from the Three Punic Wars, and
                            > we
                            > > > see a
                            > > > Roman adoption of Carthaginian handling of treachery, first
                            > > > exercised by
                            > > > Scipio who crucified the Roman perfugae after the fall of
                            > Carthage.
                            > > > Apparently during the wars the Roman propaganda had created the
                            > > > stigma of
                            > > > the Roman woman crucified together with her babies, probably an
                            > > > allegory of
                            > > > the Roman lupa and Romulus and Remus, reflecting the status quo
                            > of
                            > > > a Roman
                            > > > state under heavy pressure. However, Josephus (resp. his source)
                            > > > has used
                            > > > this stigma of foreign terror to describe the situation in
                            > > > Jerusalem when
                            > > > the Jews first came into contact with the brutality of ex-
                            > Ptolemaic
                            > > > Macedonian/Kittim/Cyriote mercenaries of the Seleucid King on
                            > his
                            > > > return
                            > > > from the failed expedition to Egypt in 168/7 BC. It is
                            > sufficiently
                            > > > known
                            > > > from history that a mortified (or beaten) army on the retreat is
                            > by
                            > > > far more
                            > > > brutal against NOCs than a victorious one on the advance. And as
                            > a
                            > > > classical
                            > > > sign of experienced brutality directed against the substance of
                            > a
                            > > > people I'd
                            > > > expect the allegory of the crucified woman (esp. of a pregnant
                            > one
                            > > > or mother
                            > > > of babies) again in the days of the Nero-redivivus Domitian,
                            > btw.
                            > > > the minted
                            > > > Hebrew 666 transliteration, simply to describe the common fear of
                            > a
                            > > > genocide. Actually I take the crucified woman for an allegory, a
                            > > > symbol of
                            > > > description, rather for a literally to be taken fact. Not by
                            > chance
                            > > > the
                            > > > murder by a woman was committed in the Empire by crushing the
                            > head
                            > > > with a
                            > > > club (Val. Max. 7.1; Amb. 1). And we don't even deal with female
                            > > > murder.
                            > > > The Mishna or Josephus' bloomy anecdotes (Ant 12.256; 18.79ff.)
                            > as
                            > > > reliable
                            > > > sources to understand history or a phenomenon at its periphery
                            > is
                            > > > somewhat
                            > > > wide of the mark though, and thus to be rejected.
                            > > > However, reading Martin Hengel_Crucifixion, Fortress Press 1977
                            > > > would not be
                            > > > amiss.
                            > > >
                            > > > regards,
                            > > > Dierk van den Berg
                            > > > RU Nijmegen, NL
                            > > > -------------------------------------------
                            > > > kullu nafsin dsa 'iqatu l-mawt (surah 3.185)
                            > > >
                            > > > ----- Original Message -----
                            > > > From: "ANTONIO LOMBATTI" <antonio.lombatti@...>
                            > > > To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                            > > > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2007 11:14 PM
                            > > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
                            > > >
                            > > > > These are the only two sources about women crucifixion that I
                            > know
                            > > > > of, apart from the Jewish ones quoted by Joe (Tractate Mourning
                            > 2.11
                            > > > > and Sanhedrin 6.5) in this article:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > http://www.centuryone.org/crucifixion2.html
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Antonio
                            > > > > antonio lombatti
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Antonio Lombatti
                            I ve found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National Archaeological Museum. Even if I m a bit doubtful about its interpretation, the
                            Message 13 of 20 , May 9, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National
                              Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
                              interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
                              crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).

                              I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person was
                              hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
                              been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the thesis
                              that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
                              by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
                              abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
                              principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
                              l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).

                              However, this might be the only representation of a hung (crucified?)
                              woman that I'm aware of.

                              I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at

                              http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg

                              Antonio Lombatti


                              P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
                              couple of days. (:-)




                              Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:

                              > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a woman
                              > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
                              > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
                              >
                              > Peter Miscall
                              >
                              >
                              >



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Trudy Kawami
                              Antonio, I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or whatever. It would
                              Message 14 of 20 , May 10, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Antonio,
                                I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or whatever. It would be good to look at the original object before offering an interpretation. At best the style is 4th cent. BCE, not 5th. Where did you find the drawing? The woman looks like she is dancing, not being hung on a tree; there are baskets, clothes, jewlery and other figures (seated at rt?) so the section you posted does not give the whole scene.I doubtg whether the scene has anything to do with crucifixions.
                                Trudy Kawami

                                ________________________________

                                From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Antonio Lombatti
                                Sent: Wed 5/9/2007 12:12 PM
                                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion



                                I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National
                                Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
                                interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
                                crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).

                                I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person was
                                hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
                                been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the thesis
                                that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
                                by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
                                abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
                                principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
                                l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).

                                However, this might be the only representation of a hung (crucified?)
                                woman that I'm aware of.

                                I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at

                                http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg <http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg>

                                Antonio Lombatti

                                P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
                                couple of days. (:-)

                                Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:

                                > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a woman
                                > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
                                > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
                                >
                                > Peter Miscall
                                >
                                >
                                >

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Antonio Lombatti
                                Trudy, I have no expertise in ancient Art History, therefore I posted the image so that some of could judge it. Probably, it has nothing to do with
                                Message 15 of 20 , May 11, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Trudy,

                                  I have no expertise in ancient Art History, therefore I posted the
                                  image so that some of could judge it. Probably, it has nothing to do
                                  with crucifixion, as you suggested; however, I think that she (I mean
                                  the hung woman) should not be dancing with her wrists tied and
                                  completely naked.

                                  The picture is labelled and dated as I wrote in my previous post.
                                  However, I have lots of doubts about it. I've seen it in an Italian
                                  paper on death penalties in Antiquity and as for the above image it
                                  says it comes from M. Torelli _Etruria. Guida Archeologica_. Roma:
                                  Laterza, 1993.

                                  There are two more interesting photos (even if they don't refer to
                                  women crucifixion):

                                  http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/6908/cruxpl5.jpg


                                  1. (Above) Bas-relief of the Palace of Sennacherib at Niniveh
                                  depicting the taking of Lachish (701/689-688); it showa two men
                                  "crucified" on boards and flayed.
                                  2. (Below) Assyrian crucifixion by means of nails and rings


                                  Comments and suggestions are all welcome, since I'm finishing a paper
                                  on crucifixion.

                                  Antonio Lombatti


                                  Il giorno 11/mag/07, alle ore 04:36, Trudy Kawami ha scritto:

                                  > Antonio,
                                  > I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing
                                  > after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or
                                  > whatever. It would be good to look at the original object before
                                  > offering an interpretation. At best the style is 4th cent. BCE, not
                                  > 5th. Where did you find the drawing? The woman looks like she is
                                  > dancing, not being hung on a tree; there are baskets, clothes,
                                  > jewlery and other figures (seated at rt?) so the section you posted
                                  > does not give the whole scene.I doubtg whether the scene has
                                  > anything to do with crucifixions.
                                  > Trudy Kawami
                                  >
                                  > ________________________________
                                  >
                                  > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Antonio Lombatti
                                  > Sent: Wed 5/9/2007 12:12 PM
                                  > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
                                  >
                                  > I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National
                                  > Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
                                  > interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
                                  > crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).
                                  >
                                  > I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person was
                                  > hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
                                  > been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the thesis
                                  > that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
                                  > by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
                                  > abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
                                  > principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
                                  > l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).
                                  >
                                  > However, this might be the only representation of a hung (crucified?)
                                  > woman that I'm aware of.
                                  >
                                  > I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at
                                  >
                                  > http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg<http://
                                  > img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg>
                                  >
                                  > Antonio Lombatti
                                  >
                                  > P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
                                  > couple of days. (:-)
                                  >
                                  > Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:
                                  >
                                  > > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a
                                  > woman
                                  > > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
                                  > > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
                                  > >
                                  > > Peter Miscall
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • sbudin@camden.rutgers.edu
                                  The naked dancer, plus the box, alabastron, etc. seems more reminiscent of initiation into the mysteries (of Dionysos?) than crucifixion. A rather late
                                  Message 16 of 20 , May 11, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    The naked dancer, plus the box, alabastron, etc. seems more reminiscent of
                                    initiation into the mysteries (of Dionysos?) than crucifixion. A rather late
                                    comparandum would be the Villa of the Mysteries at Pompeii. Here there is at
                                    least one mostly naked girl being whipped, and a naked female dancer with
                                    cistra.
                                    Perhaps this is a religious scene?

                                    -Stephanie Budin



                                    Quoting Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...>:

                                    > Trudy,
                                    >
                                    > I have no expertise in ancient Art History, therefore I posted the
                                    > image so that some of could judge it. Probably, it has nothing to do
                                    > with crucifixion, as you suggested; however, I think that she (I mean
                                    > the hung woman) should not be dancing with her wrists tied and
                                    > completely naked.
                                    >
                                    > The picture is labelled and dated as I wrote in my previous post.
                                    > However, I have lots of doubts about it. I've seen it in an Italian
                                    > paper on death penalties in Antiquity and as for the above image it
                                    > says it comes from M. Torelli _Etruria. Guida Archeologica_. Roma:
                                    > Laterza, 1993.
                                    >
                                    > There are two more interesting photos (even if they don't refer to
                                    > women crucifixion):
                                    >
                                    > http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/6908/cruxpl5.jpg
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > 1. (Above) Bas-relief of the Palace of Sennacherib at Niniveh
                                    > depicting the taking of Lachish (701/689-688); it showa two men
                                    > "crucified" on boards and flayed.
                                    > 2. (Below) Assyrian crucifixion by means of nails and rings
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Comments and suggestions are all welcome, since I'm finishing a paper
                                    > on crucifixion.
                                    >
                                    > Antonio Lombatti
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Il giorno 11/mag/07, alle ore 04:36, Trudy Kawami ha scritto:
                                    >
                                    > > Antonio,
                                    > > I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing
                                    > > after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or
                                    > > whatever. It would be good to look at the original object before
                                    > > offering an interpretation. At best the style is 4th cent. BCE, not
                                    > > 5th. Where did you find the drawing? The woman looks like she is
                                    > > dancing, not being hung on a tree; there are baskets, clothes,
                                    > > jewlery and other figures (seated at rt?) so the section you posted
                                    > > does not give the whole scene.I doubtg whether the scene has
                                    > > anything to do with crucifixions.
                                    > > Trudy Kawami
                                    > >
                                    > > ________________________________
                                    > >
                                    > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Antonio Lombatti
                                    > > Sent: Wed 5/9/2007 12:12 PM
                                    > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
                                    > >
                                    > > I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National
                                    > > Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
                                    > > interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
                                    > > crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).
                                    > >
                                    > > I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person was
                                    > > hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
                                    > > been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the thesis
                                    > > that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
                                    > > by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
                                    > > abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
                                    > > principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
                                    > > l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).
                                    > >
                                    > > However, this might be the only representation of a hung (crucified?)
                                    > > woman that I'm aware of.
                                    > >
                                    > > I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at
                                    > >
                                    > > http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg<http://
                                    > > img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg>
                                    > >
                                    > > Antonio Lombatti
                                    > >
                                    > > P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
                                    > > couple of days. (:-)
                                    > >
                                    > > Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:
                                    > >
                                    > > > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a
                                    > > woman
                                    > > > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
                                    > > > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Peter Miscall
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >


                                    "Maybe we can link up with someone who’s meditating and download enlightenment!"
                                    -Tachikoma
                                  • nick smith
                                    The two pics shown dipict the Assyrian king Ansasurpal (appologies for the spelling) flaying POWs after campaining in northen Mesopotamia.The POWs are soldiers
                                    Message 17 of 20 , May 12, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      The two pics shown dipict the Assyrian king Ansasurpal (appologies for the spelling) flaying POWs after campaining in northen Mesopotamia.The POWs are soldiers being flayed in front of their children.I'll try find a clearer reference forb the image and post,but these images also have nothing to do with crucifixion.

                                      Hope this helps,

                                      Nick Smith

                                      Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...> wrote:
                                      Trudy,

                                      I have no expertise in ancient Art History, therefore I posted the
                                      image so that some of could judge it. Probably, it has nothing to do
                                      with crucifixion, as you suggested; however, I think that she (I mean
                                      the hung woman) should not be dancing with her wrists tied and
                                      completely naked.

                                      The picture is labelled and dated as I wrote in my previous post.
                                      However, I have lots of doubts about it. I've seen it in an Italian
                                      paper on death penalties in Antiquity and as for the above image it
                                      says it comes from M. Torelli _Etruria. Guida Archeologica_. Roma:
                                      Laterza, 1993.

                                      There are two more interesting photos (even if they don't refer to
                                      women crucifixion):

                                      http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/6908/cruxpl5.jpg

                                      1. (Above) Bas-relief of the Palace of Sennacherib at Niniveh
                                      depicting the taking of Lachish (701/689-688); it showa two men
                                      "crucified" on boards and flayed.
                                      2. (Below) Assyrian crucifixion by means of nails and rings

                                      Comments and suggestions are all welcome, since I'm finishing a paper
                                      on crucifixion.

                                      Antonio Lombatti

                                      Il giorno 11/mag/07, alle ore 04:36, Trudy Kawami ha scritto:

                                      > Antonio,
                                      > I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing
                                      > after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or
                                      > whatever. It would be good to look at the original object before
                                      > offering an interpretation. At best the style is 4th cent. BCE, not
                                      > 5th. Where did you find the drawing? The woman looks like she is
                                      > dancing, not being hung on a tree; there are baskets, clothes,
                                      > jewlery and other figures (seated at rt?) so the section you posted
                                      > does not give the whole scene.I doubtg whether the scene has
                                      > anything to do with crucifixions.
                                      > Trudy Kawami
                                      >
                                      > ________________________________
                                      >
                                      > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Antonio Lombatti
                                      > Sent: Wed 5/9/2007 12:12 PM
                                      > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
                                      >
                                      > I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina National
                                      > Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
                                      > interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
                                      > crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).
                                      >
                                      > I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person was
                                      > hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
                                      > been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the thesis
                                      > that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
                                      > by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
                                      > abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
                                      > principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
                                      > l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).
                                      >
                                      > However, this might be the only representation of a hung (crucified?)
                                      > woman that I'm aware of.
                                      >
                                      > I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at
                                      >
                                      > http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg<http://
                                      > img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg>
                                      >
                                      > Antonio Lombatti
                                      >
                                      > P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
                                      > couple of days. (:-)
                                      >
                                      > Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:
                                      >
                                      > > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a
                                      > woman
                                      > > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
                                      > > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
                                      > >
                                      > > Peter Miscall
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                                      ---------------------------------
                                      The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email address from your Internet provider.

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Antonio Lombatti
                                      Nick, thanks for your opinion. Both images are listed as crucifixions by P. Vitale, _Crocifissione_. Phaidon: Roma, 2005, who quotes J.J. Collins,_Archaeology
                                      Message 18 of 20 , May 12, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Nick,

                                        thanks for your opinion. Both images are listed as crucifixions by P.
                                        Vitale, _Crocifissione_. Phaidon: Roma, 2005, who quotes J.J.
                                        Collins,_Archaeology of the Crucifixion_. in "Catholical Biblical
                                        Quarterly", 1 (1939), p. 160. As I said I am not an art historian;
                                        however, in the second drawing, one can clearly see nails through the
                                        victim's wrists. Probably, there were nailed in order to flay them
                                        better.

                                        Antonio Lombatti



                                        Il giorno 12/mag/07, alle ore 20:23, nick smith ha scritto:

                                        > The two pics shown dipict the Assyrian king Ansasurpal (appologies
                                        > for the spelling) flaying POWs after campaining in northen
                                        > Mesopotamia.The POWs are soldiers being flayed in front of their
                                        > children.I'll try find a clearer reference forb the image and
                                        > post,but these images also have nothing to do with crucifixion.
                                        >
                                        > Hope this helps,
                                        >
                                        > Nick Smith
                                        >
                                        > Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...> wrote:
                                        > Trudy,
                                        >
                                        > I have no expertise in ancient Art History, therefore I posted the
                                        > image so that some of could judge it. Probably, it has nothing to do
                                        > with crucifixion, as you suggested; however, I think that she (I mean
                                        > the hung woman) should not be dancing with her wrists tied and
                                        > completely naked.
                                        >
                                        > The picture is labelled and dated as I wrote in my previous post.
                                        > However, I have lots of doubts about it. I've seen it in an Italian
                                        > paper on death penalties in Antiquity and as for the above image it
                                        > says it comes from M. Torelli _Etruria. Guida Archeologica_. Roma:
                                        > Laterza, 1993.
                                        >
                                        > There are two more interesting photos (even if they don't refer to
                                        > women crucifixion):
                                        >
                                        > http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/6908/cruxpl5.jpg
                                        >
                                        > 1. (Above) Bas-relief of the Palace of Sennacherib at Niniveh
                                        > depicting the taking of Lachish (701/689-688); it showa two men
                                        > "crucified" on boards and flayed.
                                        > 2. (Below) Assyrian crucifixion by means of nails and rings
                                        >
                                        > Comments and suggestions are all welcome, since I'm finishing a paper
                                        > on crucifixion.
                                        >
                                        > Antonio Lombatti
                                        >
                                        > Il giorno 11/mag/07, alle ore 04:36, Trudy Kawami ha scritto:
                                        >
                                        > > Antonio,
                                        > > I am a bit puzzled by the image you posted. It is a modern drawing
                                        > > after an ancient object, an engraved mirror, vase painting, or
                                        > > whatever. It would be good to look at the original object before
                                        > > offering an interpretation. At best the style is 4th cent. BCE, not
                                        > > 5th. Where did you find the drawing? The woman looks like she is
                                        > > dancing, not being hung on a tree; there are baskets, clothes,
                                        > > jewlery and other figures (seated at rt?) so the section you posted
                                        > > does not give the whole scene.I doubtg whether the scene has
                                        > > anything to do with crucifixions.
                                        > > Trudy Kawami
                                        > >
                                        > > ________________________________
                                        > >
                                        > > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Antonio Lombatti
                                        > > Sent: Wed 5/9/2007 12:12 PM
                                        > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Crucifixion
                                        > >
                                        > > I've found an interesting drawing now kept in the Prenestina
                                        > National
                                        > > Archaeological Museum. Even if I'm a bit doubtful about its
                                        > > interpretation, the description says: Etruscan wealthy woman
                                        > > crucified by the Romans (Vth century B.C.).
                                        > >
                                        > > I think it should refer to "arbor infelix", where a guilty person
                                        > was
                                        > > hung with ropes ("patibulum" or "furca"). The "crux" seems to have
                                        > > been introduced as death penalty from III century B.C. and the
                                        > thesis
                                        > > that Romans introduced crucifixion from Carthaginians was supported
                                        > > by Tertullian (_Ad Nationes_ 1,18): "Crucis vero novitam numerosae
                                        > > abstrusae regulus vester libenter dedicavit" (J. Vergote, _Les
                                        > > principaux modes de supplices chez les anciens_, in "Bulletin de
                                        > > l'Institut historique belge de Rome", 20 [1939], p. 141 ff.).
                                        > >
                                        > > However, this might be the only representation of a hung
                                        > (crucified?)
                                        > > woman that I'm aware of.
                                        > >
                                        > > I've uploaded the scanned photo for the group at
                                        > >
                                        > > http://img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg<http://
                                        > > img95.imageshack.us/img95/7218/womancrucxs5.jpg>
                                        > >
                                        > > Antonio Lombatti
                                        > >
                                        > > P.S.: download it if you want, because I'll remove the file in a
                                        > > couple of days. (:-)
                                        > >
                                        > > Il giorno 29/apr/07, alle ore 23:25, pierredarwin ha scritto:
                                        > >
                                        > > > A question out of a discussion of the Christa, a crucifix with a
                                        > > woman
                                        > > > on the cross. Did the Romans crucify women that we know of? If so,
                                        > > > was this often? Any help will be appreciated.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Peter Miscall
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > >
                                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ---------------------------------
                                        > The all-new Yahoo! Mail goes wherever you go - free your email
                                        > address from your Internet provider.
                                        >
                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • leeedgartyler@cox.net
                                        ... Hello, Antonio, That s quite likely true, as victims of extraordinarily painful executions were often nailed in place first, but I would not classify such
                                        Message 19 of 20 , May 12, 2007
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          ---- Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...> wrote:
                                          > Nick,
                                          >
                                          > thanks for your opinion. Both images are listed as crucifixions by P.
                                          > Vitale, _Crocifissione_. Phaidon: Roma, 2005, who quotes J.J.
                                          > Collins,_Archaeology of the Crucifixion_. in "Catholical Biblical
                                          > Quarterly", 1 (1939), p. 160. As I said I am not an art historian;
                                          > however, in the second drawing, one can clearly see nails through the
                                          > victim's wrists. Probably, there were nailed in order to flay them
                                          > better.
                                          >
                                          > Antonio Lombatti
                                          >

                                          Hello, Antonio,

                                          That's quite likely true, as victims of extraordinarily painful executions were often nailed in place first, but I would not classify such things as crucifixions. We're reliably informed by ancient sources that victims of burnings were often nailed to stakes, and pirates captured by the Imperial Japanese navies were nailed to the decks of their ships before being whipped to death. Obviously, these executions were not by crucifixion. As Nick notes, the executions depicted appear to be by flaying.

                                          The salient feature of crucifixion is the nailing of the victim to a cross, after which gravity does its insidious work to kill him. (I've seen it said that they were sometimes tied to the cross, but have yet to find an ancient source to support this.) Executions by flaying, beating, or burning are another matter, even if nails were involved.

                                          best,

                                          Ed Tyler
                                        • Antonio Lombatti
                                          Ed, thanks for your observations. Since there s no agreement, I ll write that victims were nailed (not crucified) and then tortured. J. Fitzmyer and E. Puech
                                          Message 20 of 20 , May 13, 2007
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Ed,

                                            thanks for your observations. Since there's no agreement, I'll write
                                            that victims were nailed (not crucified) and then tortured. J.
                                            Fitzmyer and E. Puech thought that even the OT and qumranic TLH
                                            referred to crucifixion even if the texts do not clearly say that
                                            victims were nailed to a wooden beam (Deut. 21:22-23, 4QpNah and
                                            11QTemple - J.M. Baumgarten,_Does TLH in the Temple Scroll Refer to
                                            Crucifixion?_. in "Journal of Biblical Literature" 91 [1972], pp.
                                            472-481 and E. Puech, _Notes sur 11Q et 4Q524. A propos de la
                                            crucifixion dans le Rouleau et dans le Judaisme_. in "Revue de
                                            Qumran" 69 [1997], pp. 109-124).

                                            The verb "talah" appears 30 times in the OT and it seems to have a
                                            variety of possible translations (at least in Italian): raise,
                                            suspend an oject, hang from a scaffold, find oneself suspended with
                                            the mind (F. Parente,_Talah 'al 'es: una norma di diritto penale
                                            biblico_. in "Studi classici e orientali" 27 [1977], pp. 79-137). I
                                            would include all death punishments by "hanging alive" as crucifixion
                                            (even the Aramaic SLB, see J. Levy,_Woerterbuch ueber die Talmudim
                                            und Midraschchim_. Harz: Berlin, 1924, 4. Band, p. 189 "SLB=kreuzigen").

                                            So, considering that the images I've posted before could or could not
                                            refer to crucifixion in the sense how today the verb is understood,
                                            the first representations of crucifixions that we have today are two
                                            Italian graffiti, one found near Rome (AD 250) and the other one in
                                            Pozzuoli (AD 100), and an Egyptian amulet (AD 200):


                                            Pozzuoli graffito
                                            http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/6475/pozzuolihv3.jpg

                                            Alexamenos worshipping his God (Jesus)
                                            http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/6682/alexmx9.jpg

                                            Egyptian amulet
                                            http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7995/egittool1.jpg


                                            Moreover, the Pozzuoli graffito is our earliest iconographic source
                                            about crucifixion (I mean, nailed or tied to a wooden beam). On a T-
                                            shaped cross ("crux commissa" or "crux humilis") is a victim depicted
                                            from behind. There is no evidence of a "suppedeaneum". The victim is
                                            not naked but was clothed with an animal skin (?) (also Tacitus wrote
                                            of condemned men dressed in animal skins; _Annales_, 15,44; 2,13,1:
                                            "Ferarum tergist contecti", "contectus umeros ferina pelle").
                                            Perhaps, this was done to attract te animals freed in the circus and
                                            thus end up torn pieces as described in the mime of the _Laureolus_
                                            (see Martial's _Spect._ 7 on Latin crucifixion shows).

                                            As for the Pozzuoli crucifixion graffito, there are two different
                                            interpretations. A. Maiuri says it depicts Jesus (_La Campania al
                                            tempo dell'approdo di S. Paolo_. in "Studi Romani", 6 [1961], p.
                                            135), while M. Guarducci is of the opinion that it represents a slave
                                            woman, as the figure has long hair and wearing a tunic (not an animal
                                            skin). Moreover, she identified an inscription over the victim's
                                            head: ALCIMILLA (_Iscrizioni greche e latine in una Taberna di
                                            Pozzuoli_. _Acta of the Fifth Epigraphic Congress_. IPS: Roma, 1967,
                                            pp. 219-223).



                                            Antonio Lombatti


                                            Il giorno 13/mag/07, alle ore 01:53, leeedgartyler@... ha scritto:

                                            >
                                            > ---- Antonio Lombatti <antonio.lombatti@...> wrote:
                                            > > Nick,
                                            > >
                                            > > thanks for your opinion. Both images are listed as crucifixions
                                            > by P.
                                            > > Vitale, _Crocifissione_. Phaidon: Roma, 2005, who quotes J.J.
                                            > > Collins,_Archaeology of the Crucifixion_. in "Catholical Biblical
                                            > > Quarterly", 1 (1939), p. 160. As I said I am not an art historian;
                                            > > however, in the second drawing, one can clearly see nails through
                                            > the
                                            > > victim's wrists. Probably, there were nailed in order to flay them
                                            > > better.
                                            > >
                                            > > Antonio Lombatti
                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > Hello, Antonio,
                                            >
                                            > That's quite likely true, as victims of extraordinarily painful
                                            > executions were often nailed in place first, but I would not
                                            > classify such things as crucifixions. We're reliably informed by
                                            > ancient sources that victims of burnings were often nailed to
                                            > stakes, and pirates captured by the Imperial Japanese navies were
                                            > nailed to the decks of their ships before being whipped to death.
                                            > Obviously, these executions were not by crucifixion. As Nick notes,
                                            > the executions depicted appear to be by flaying.
                                            >
                                            > The salient feature of crucifixion is the nailing of the victim to
                                            > a cross, after which gravity does its insidious work to kill him.
                                            > (I've seen it said that they were sometimes tied to the cross, but
                                            > have yet to find an ancient source to support this.) Executions by
                                            > flaying, beating, or burning are another matter, even if nails were
                                            > involved.
                                            >
                                            > best,
                                            >
                                            > Ed Tyler
                                            >
                                            >



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