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RE: [ANE-2] Mesopotamia and Syria

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  • Trudy Kawami
    Bea, Bevel-rim bowls also occur in SW Iran which no one calls Mesopotamia. ... what is now Syria & even the Iranian plateau a little. There is no question that
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 3, 2007
      Bea,
      Bevel-rim bowls also occur in SW Iran which no one calls Mesopotamia.
      :-) They seems to be part of the Uruk "system" even when it spread into
      what is now Syria & even the Iranian plateau a little. There is no
      question that they (& the function they served) originated in
      Mesopotamia, but for a brief period they spread much further with the
      political/cultural/military/religious/whatever that we call the Uruk
      expansion.
      Trudy Kawami

      ________________________________

      From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      Beatrice Hopkinson
      Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 7:09 PM
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Mesopotamia and Syria



      >I am not aware that there are any strigently defined "borders" to
      >Mespopotamia. The site of Mari is in modern Syria but was clearly part
      >of the "Mesopo-centric" world.

      That is what I thought, but I wondered if Northern Syria was defined
      somewhat differently?

      >Mesopotamia is just a Greek term for a
      >general region that is still used for convenience sake, but I would not
      >feel obliged to exclude a site on the basis of which bank of the
      >Euphrates it lay on.

      Frankly, as I am dealing with Beveled Rim Bowls I was inclined to
      include everywhere they occur as 'Mesopotamia' . But see the following:

      Mesopotamia :
      an ancient region of southwestern Asia in present-day Iraq, lying
      between
      the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. Its alluvial plains were the site of
      the
      civilizations of Akkad, Sumer, Babylonia, and Assyria.

      DERIVATIVES
      Mesopotamian adjective & noun
      ORIGIN from Greek mesos "middle" + potamos "river."

      As always I look to the list for corrections :)

      Beatrice Hopkinson





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Beatrice Hopkinson
      Trudy, Well I have been referring to them now as occurring in Mesopotamia and its hinterland - that should cover it don t you think. Bea
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 3, 2007
        Trudy,

        Well I have been referring to them now as occurring in Mesopotamia
        and
        its hinterland - that should cover it don't you think.

        Bea

        >Bea,
        >Bevel-rim bowls also occur in SW Iran which no one calls Mesopotamia.
        >:-) They seems to be part of the Uruk "system" even when it spread into
        >what is now Syria & even the Iranian plateau a little. There is no
        >question that they (& the function they served) originated in
        >Mesopotamia, but for a brief period they spread much further with the
        >political/cultural/military/religious/whatever that we call the Uruk
        >expansion.
        >Trudy Kawami
        >
        >________________________________
        >
        >From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        >Beatrice Hopkinson
        >Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 7:09 PM
        >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Mesopotamia and Syria
        >
        >
        >
        >>I am not aware that there are any strigently defined "borders" to
        >>Mespopotamia. The site of Mari is in modern Syria but was clearly part
        >>of the "Mesopo-centric" world.
        >
        >That is what I thought, but I wondered if Northern Syria was defined
        >somewhat differently?
        >
        >>Mesopotamia is just a Greek term for a
        >>general region that is still used for convenience sake, but I would not
        >>feel obliged to exclude a site on the basis of which bank of the
        >>Euphrates it lay on.
        >
        >Frankly, as I am dealing with Beveled Rim Bowls I was inclined to
        >include everywhere they occur as 'Mesopotamia' . But see the following:
        >
        >Mesopotamia :
        >an ancient region of southwestern Asia in present-day Iraq, lying
        >between
        >the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. Its alluvial plains were the site of
        >the
        >civilizations of Akkad, Sumer, Babylonia, and Assyria.
        >
        >DERIVATIVES
        >Mesopotamian adjective & noun
        >ORIGIN from Greek mesos "middle" + potamos "river."
        >
        >As always I look to the list for corrections :)
        >
        >Beatrice Hopkinson
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
      • driver40386
        I think most people equate the Greek word Mesopotamia with the Semitic Aram-Naharayim, an equally hard to define designation. I was never able to find Greek
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 4, 2007
          I think most people equate the Greek word Mesopotamia with the Semitic
          Aram-Naharayim, an equally hard to define designation.
          I was never able to find Greek usage of the word before the time of
          Alexander. Herodotus, who describes the land between the Tigris &
          Euphrates, never once uses the term.
          The Assyrian highlands were known as Nairi-lands, is this not
          "river-country"? I mention it because if I am not mistaken "Naharayim"
          also means "river-country", not "two rivers".
          As Aram is typically taken to refer to Syria, I suspect Aram-Naharayim
          simply means "river-country (of) Syria", not the "land between the two
          rivers". If this is the case then Mesopotamia must also mean something
          similar.
          Also, I know of no texts that speak of the Assyrian higlands as
          Naharayim, I would appreciate a correction on that point if anyone is
          able. From what I understand Naharayim has always been used to
          describe the highlands to the west of the Euphrates. To find
          specifically what is meant by Naharayim, perhaps we should use the
          Egyptian equivalent - Naharin.
          There are many 18th dynasty inscriptions that tell of "Aleppo in
          Naharin", or "Tunip of Naharin". We know that Nii (Niy) was on the
          east bank of the Orontes and that the Egyptians place Nii in Naharin.
          Perhaps Aram-Naharayim simply refers to the river-country (highlands),
          in Syria, between the Orontes and the Euphrates. It was only later
          around the 1st century AD that the terminology shifted to refer to the
          land between the Tigris and Euphrates.

          Regards, Jon Smyth
          Toronto, CAN.

          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Garold Mills" <gmills4248@...> wrote:
          >
          > All,
          > I use the term Mesopotamia for the region around the rivers. However
          it seems to be very flexible. I think the term Fertile Crescent is the
          often used term for the are including Mesopotamia and Syria and
          Levantine coast.
          >
        • Niels Peter Lemche
          Naharaim is Hebrew and dualis, i.e. the two rivers. So back to original thesis, or a new one is needed: Naharaim was misvocalized by the Masoretes, from
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 4, 2007
            Naharaim is Hebrew and dualis, i.e. the two rivers. So back to original thesis, or a new one is needed: Naharaim was misvocalized by the Masoretes, from nhr(i)m, naharim to naharaim. The Septuagint translates Gen 24:10, naharaim as Mesopotamia, which says that the Masoretes were right, after all.

            Niels Peter Lemche



            Niels Peter Lemche

            -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
            Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af driver40386
            Sendt: 5. april 2007 02:07
            Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Emne: [ANE-2] Re: Mesopotamia and Syria

            I think most people equate the Greek word Mesopotamia with the Semitic
            Aram-Naharayim, an equally hard to define designation.
            I was never able to find Greek usage of the word before the time of
            Alexander. Herodotus, who describes the land between the Tigris &
            Euphrates, never once uses the term.
            The Assyrian highlands were known as Nairi-lands, is this not
            "river-country"? I mention it because if I am not mistaken "Naharayim"
            also means "river-country", not "two rivers".
            As Aram is typically taken to refer to Syria, I suspect Aram-Naharayim
            simply means "river-country (of) Syria", not the "land between the two
            rivers". If this is the case then Mesopotamia must also mean something
            similar.
            Also, I know of no texts that speak of the Assyrian higlands as
            Naharayim, I would appreciate a correction on that point if anyone is
            able. From what I understand Naharayim has always been used to
            describe the highlands to the west of the Euphrates. To find
            specifically what is meant by Naharayim, perhaps we should use the
            Egyptian equivalent - Naharin.
            There are many 18th dynasty inscriptions that tell of "Aleppo in
            Naharin", or "Tunip of Naharin". We know that Nii (Niy) was on the
            east bank of the Orontes and that the Egyptians place Nii in Naharin.
            Perhaps Aram-Naharayim simply refers to the river-country (highlands),
            in Syria, between the Orontes and the Euphrates. It was only later
            around the 1st century AD that the terminology shifted to refer to the
            land between the Tigris and Euphrates.

            Regards, Jon Smyth
            Toronto, CAN.

            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Garold Mills" <gmills4248@...> wrote:
            >
            > All,
            > I use the term Mesopotamia for the region around the rivers. However
            it seems to be very flexible. I think the term Fertile Crescent is the
            often used term for the are including Mesopotamia and Syria and
            Levantine coast.
            >




            Yahoo! Groups Links
          • victor
            I I haven t been following the recent discussions on ANE, nor am I an historical geographer, but on this issue you might be interested in J. J. Finkelstein,
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 4, 2007
              I I haven't been following the recent discussions on ANE, nor am I an
              historical geographer, but on this issue you might be interested in J. J.
              Finkelstein, "Mesopotamia", JNES 21 (1962), 73-92

              Victor Hurowitz

              BGU Beer Sheva



              _____

              From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              driver40386
              Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 2:07 AM
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Mesopotamia and Syria



              I think most people equate the Greek word Mesopotamia with the Semitic
              Aram-Naharayim, an equally hard to define designation.
              I was never able to find Greek usage of the word before the time of
              Alexander. Herodotus, who describes the land between the Tigris &
              Euphrates, never once uses the term.
              The Assyrian highlands were known as Nairi-lands, is this not
              "river-country"? I mention it because if I am not mistaken "Naharayim"
              also means "river-country", not "two rivers".
              As Aram is typically taken to refer to Syria, I suspect Aram-Naharayim
              simply means "river-country (of) Syria", not the "land between the two
              rivers". If this is the case then Mesopotamia must also mean something
              similar.
              Also, I know of no texts that speak of the Assyrian higlands as
              Naharayim, I would appreciate a correction on that point if anyone is
              able. From what I understand Naharayim has always been used to
              describe the highlands to the west of the Euphrates. To find
              specifically what is meant by Naharayim, perhaps we should use the
              Egyptian equivalent - Naharin.
              There are many 18th dynasty inscriptions that tell of "Aleppo in
              Naharin", or "Tunip of Naharin". We know that Nii (Niy) was on the
              east bank of the Orontes and that the Egyptians place Nii in Naharin.
              Perhaps Aram-Naharayim simply refers to the river-country (highlands),
              in Syria, between the Orontes and the Euphrates. It was only later
              around the 1st century AD that the terminology shifted to refer to the
              land between the Tigris and Euphrates.

              Regards, Jon Smyth
              Toronto, CAN.

              --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com, "Garold
              Mills" <gmills4248@...> wrote:
              >
              > All,
              > I use the term Mesopotamia for the region around the rivers. However
              it seems to be very flexible. I think the term Fertile Crescent is the
              often used term for the are including Mesopotamia and Syria and
              Levantine coast.
              >





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • victor
              I I haven t been following the recent discussions on ANE, nor am I an historical geographer, but on this issue you might be interested in J. J. Finkelstein,
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 5, 2007
                I I haven't been following the recent discussions on ANE, nor am I an
                historical geographer, but on this issue you might be interested in J. J.
                Finkelstein, "Mesopotamia", JNES 21 (1962), 73-92

                Victor Hurowitz

                BGU Beer Sheva



                _____

                From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                Niels Peter Lemche
                Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 7:21 AM
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: SV: [ANE-2] Re: Mesopotamia and Syria



                Naharaim is Hebrew and dualis, i.e. the two rivers. So back to original
                thesis, or a new one is needed: Naharaim was misvocalized by the Masoretes,
                from nhr(i)m, naharim to naharaim. The Septuagint translates Gen 24:10,
                naharaim as Mesopotamia, which says that the Masoretes were right, after
                all.

                Niels Peter Lemche

                Niels Peter Lemche

                -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com] På vegne af
                driver40386
                Sendt: 5. april 2007 02:07
                Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                Emne: [ANE-2] Re: Mesopotamia and Syria

                I think most people equate the Greek word Mesopotamia with the Semitic
                Aram-Naharayim, an equally hard to define designation.
                I was never able to find Greek usage of the word before the time of
                Alexander. Herodotus, who describes the land between the Tigris &
                Euphrates, never once uses the term.
                The Assyrian highlands were known as Nairi-lands, is this not
                "river-country"? I mention it because if I am not mistaken "Naharayim"
                also means "river-country", not "two rivers".
                As Aram is typically taken to refer to Syria, I suspect Aram-Naharayim
                simply means "river-country (of) Syria", not the "land between the two
                rivers". If this is the case then Mesopotamia must also mean something
                similar.
                Also, I know of no texts that speak of the Assyrian higlands as
                Naharayim, I would appreciate a correction on that point if anyone is
                able. From what I understand Naharayim has always been used to
                describe the highlands to the west of the Euphrates. To find
                specifically what is meant by Naharayim, perhaps we should use the
                Egyptian equivalent - Naharin.
                There are many 18th dynasty inscriptions that tell of "Aleppo in
                Naharin", or "Tunip of Naharin". We know that Nii (Niy) was on the
                east bank of the Orontes and that the Egyptians place Nii in Naharin.
                Perhaps Aram-Naharayim simply refers to the river-country (highlands),
                in Syria, between the Orontes and the Euphrates. It was only later
                around the 1st century AD that the terminology shifted to refer to the
                land between the Tigris and Euphrates.

                Regards, Jon Smyth
                Toronto, CAN.

                --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com, "Garold
                Mills" <gmills4248@...> wrote:
                >
                > All,
                > I use the term Mesopotamia for the region around the rivers. However
                it seems to be very flexible. I think the term Fertile Crescent is the
                often used term for the are including Mesopotamia and Syria and
                Levantine coast.
                >

                Yahoo! Groups Links





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • driver40386
                I suspect the issue should be which two rivers would naharayim refer to? If we find no Hebrew (naharayim) nor Egyptian (naharin) referring to the highlands
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 5, 2007
                  I suspect the issue should be which 'two rivers' would "naharayim"
                  refer to?
                  If we find no Hebrew (naharayim) nor Egyptian (naharin) referring to
                  the highlands east of the Euphrates, that is to say between the Tigris
                  and Euphrates, then surely both terms must refer to the land between
                  the Orontes & Euphrates. In both cases we have highland
                  river-countries between two major rivers.

                  (quote)
                  "The Egyptian inscriptions of this period frequently mention the name
                  of Naharain, or land of two rivers, as a large country in the
                  neighbourhood of the Upper Ruthen. It is generally understood to be
                  the country of Mesopotamia. The Arabs at the present day are
                  accustomed to call the fertile country to the west of Damascus, which
                  is watered by many rivers, by the name of Naharain."
                  Egypt under the Pharaohs, Brugsch, 1902, p.138.

                  So a hundred years ago the locals still used the term Naharain to
                  describe the "river-country" between the Orontes and Euphrates.
                  Redford, quoting Astour writes:"The Egyptians also employ the vague
                  geographical term Naharin, "river-land," for Mittani (M. Astour, JNES
                  31 [1972], 103.

                  Can we equate Naharin with Naharaim (Naharayim)?

                  Many thanks for your input.
                  Jon Smyth
                  Toronto, CAN


                  --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Naharaim is Hebrew and dualis, i.e. the two rivers. So back to
                  original thesis, or a new one is needed: Naharaim was misvocalized by
                  the Masoretes, from nhr(i)m, naharim to naharaim. The Septuagint
                  translates Gen 24:10, naharaim as Mesopotamia, which says that the
                  Masoretes were right, after all.
                  >
                  > Niels Peter Lemche
                  >
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