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Re: [ANE-2] Mesopotamia and Syria

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  • Garold Mills
    All, I use the term Mesopotamia for the region around the rivers. However it seems to be very flexible. I think the term Fertile Crescent is the often used
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 3, 2007
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      All,
      I use the term Mesopotamia for the region around the rivers. However it seems to be very flexible. I think the term Fertile Crescent is the often used term for the are including Mesopotamia and Syria and Levantine coast.

      Garold Mills
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Gene Greenwood<mailto:gwoodgeno@...>
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 1:23 PM
      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Mesopotamia and Syria


      Trudy,
      For all my studies, Mesopotamia includes the land between the rivers and the the river valleys themselves. The term would include anybody that lived off of the rivers and thus would include those on the 'outside' but close to the rivers. In ancient every border was fuzzy.
      Gene . . . .
      Gene Greenwood

      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Beatrice Hopkinson <beahopkinson@...<mailto:beahopkinson%40earthlink.net>>
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, April 2, 2007 9:47:51 AM
      Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Mesopotamia and Syria

      Trudy,
      I had checked the website and found they were using 'broad' dates,
      since
      this list is well informed I thought I'd check specifically for Syria.

      I'd like the lists thoughts on another matter - does everybody
      accept that
      Mesopotamia is strictly limited to 'between the Tigris and Euphrates' and
      would that include cities on the west bank of the Euphrates in Syria -
      which is not 'between'?

      Bea

      >Bea,
      >3200 BCE would be Early Bronze Age, if you are using that system of terms.
      >Take a look at the Umm al-Marra website that you posted & you can see the
      >dating they use.
      >Trudy Kawami




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Trudy Kawami
      Bea, Bevel-rim bowls also occur in SW Iran which no one calls Mesopotamia. ... what is now Syria & even the Iranian plateau a little. There is no question that
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 3, 2007
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        Bea,
        Bevel-rim bowls also occur in SW Iran which no one calls Mesopotamia.
        :-) They seems to be part of the Uruk "system" even when it spread into
        what is now Syria & even the Iranian plateau a little. There is no
        question that they (& the function they served) originated in
        Mesopotamia, but for a brief period they spread much further with the
        political/cultural/military/religious/whatever that we call the Uruk
        expansion.
        Trudy Kawami

        ________________________________

        From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        Beatrice Hopkinson
        Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 7:09 PM
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Mesopotamia and Syria



        >I am not aware that there are any strigently defined "borders" to
        >Mespopotamia. The site of Mari is in modern Syria but was clearly part
        >of the "Mesopo-centric" world.

        That is what I thought, but I wondered if Northern Syria was defined
        somewhat differently?

        >Mesopotamia is just a Greek term for a
        >general region that is still used for convenience sake, but I would not
        >feel obliged to exclude a site on the basis of which bank of the
        >Euphrates it lay on.

        Frankly, as I am dealing with Beveled Rim Bowls I was inclined to
        include everywhere they occur as 'Mesopotamia' . But see the following:

        Mesopotamia :
        an ancient region of southwestern Asia in present-day Iraq, lying
        between
        the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. Its alluvial plains were the site of
        the
        civilizations of Akkad, Sumer, Babylonia, and Assyria.

        DERIVATIVES
        Mesopotamian adjective & noun
        ORIGIN from Greek mesos "middle" + potamos "river."

        As always I look to the list for corrections :)

        Beatrice Hopkinson





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Beatrice Hopkinson
        Trudy, Well I have been referring to them now as occurring in Mesopotamia and its hinterland - that should cover it don t you think. Bea
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 3, 2007
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          Trudy,

          Well I have been referring to them now as occurring in Mesopotamia
          and
          its hinterland - that should cover it don't you think.

          Bea

          >Bea,
          >Bevel-rim bowls also occur in SW Iran which no one calls Mesopotamia.
          >:-) They seems to be part of the Uruk "system" even when it spread into
          >what is now Syria & even the Iranian plateau a little. There is no
          >question that they (& the function they served) originated in
          >Mesopotamia, but for a brief period they spread much further with the
          >political/cultural/military/religious/whatever that we call the Uruk
          >expansion.
          >Trudy Kawami
          >
          >________________________________
          >
          >From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          >Beatrice Hopkinson
          >Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 7:09 PM
          >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Mesopotamia and Syria
          >
          >
          >
          >>I am not aware that there are any strigently defined "borders" to
          >>Mespopotamia. The site of Mari is in modern Syria but was clearly part
          >>of the "Mesopo-centric" world.
          >
          >That is what I thought, but I wondered if Northern Syria was defined
          >somewhat differently?
          >
          >>Mesopotamia is just a Greek term for a
          >>general region that is still used for convenience sake, but I would not
          >>feel obliged to exclude a site on the basis of which bank of the
          >>Euphrates it lay on.
          >
          >Frankly, as I am dealing with Beveled Rim Bowls I was inclined to
          >include everywhere they occur as 'Mesopotamia' . But see the following:
          >
          >Mesopotamia :
          >an ancient region of southwestern Asia in present-day Iraq, lying
          >between
          >the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. Its alluvial plains were the site of
          >the
          >civilizations of Akkad, Sumer, Babylonia, and Assyria.
          >
          >DERIVATIVES
          >Mesopotamian adjective & noun
          >ORIGIN from Greek mesos "middle" + potamos "river."
          >
          >As always I look to the list for corrections :)
          >
          >Beatrice Hopkinson
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
        • driver40386
          I think most people equate the Greek word Mesopotamia with the Semitic Aram-Naharayim, an equally hard to define designation. I was never able to find Greek
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 4, 2007
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            I think most people equate the Greek word Mesopotamia with the Semitic
            Aram-Naharayim, an equally hard to define designation.
            I was never able to find Greek usage of the word before the time of
            Alexander. Herodotus, who describes the land between the Tigris &
            Euphrates, never once uses the term.
            The Assyrian highlands were known as Nairi-lands, is this not
            "river-country"? I mention it because if I am not mistaken "Naharayim"
            also means "river-country", not "two rivers".
            As Aram is typically taken to refer to Syria, I suspect Aram-Naharayim
            simply means "river-country (of) Syria", not the "land between the two
            rivers". If this is the case then Mesopotamia must also mean something
            similar.
            Also, I know of no texts that speak of the Assyrian higlands as
            Naharayim, I would appreciate a correction on that point if anyone is
            able. From what I understand Naharayim has always been used to
            describe the highlands to the west of the Euphrates. To find
            specifically what is meant by Naharayim, perhaps we should use the
            Egyptian equivalent - Naharin.
            There are many 18th dynasty inscriptions that tell of "Aleppo in
            Naharin", or "Tunip of Naharin". We know that Nii (Niy) was on the
            east bank of the Orontes and that the Egyptians place Nii in Naharin.
            Perhaps Aram-Naharayim simply refers to the river-country (highlands),
            in Syria, between the Orontes and the Euphrates. It was only later
            around the 1st century AD that the terminology shifted to refer to the
            land between the Tigris and Euphrates.

            Regards, Jon Smyth
            Toronto, CAN.

            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Garold Mills" <gmills4248@...> wrote:
            >
            > All,
            > I use the term Mesopotamia for the region around the rivers. However
            it seems to be very flexible. I think the term Fertile Crescent is the
            often used term for the are including Mesopotamia and Syria and
            Levantine coast.
            >
          • Niels Peter Lemche
            Naharaim is Hebrew and dualis, i.e. the two rivers. So back to original thesis, or a new one is needed: Naharaim was misvocalized by the Masoretes, from
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 4, 2007
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              Naharaim is Hebrew and dualis, i.e. the two rivers. So back to original thesis, or a new one is needed: Naharaim was misvocalized by the Masoretes, from nhr(i)m, naharim to naharaim. The Septuagint translates Gen 24:10, naharaim as Mesopotamia, which says that the Masoretes were right, after all.

              Niels Peter Lemche



              Niels Peter Lemche

              -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
              Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af driver40386
              Sendt: 5. april 2007 02:07
              Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Emne: [ANE-2] Re: Mesopotamia and Syria

              I think most people equate the Greek word Mesopotamia with the Semitic
              Aram-Naharayim, an equally hard to define designation.
              I was never able to find Greek usage of the word before the time of
              Alexander. Herodotus, who describes the land between the Tigris &
              Euphrates, never once uses the term.
              The Assyrian highlands were known as Nairi-lands, is this not
              "river-country"? I mention it because if I am not mistaken "Naharayim"
              also means "river-country", not "two rivers".
              As Aram is typically taken to refer to Syria, I suspect Aram-Naharayim
              simply means "river-country (of) Syria", not the "land between the two
              rivers". If this is the case then Mesopotamia must also mean something
              similar.
              Also, I know of no texts that speak of the Assyrian higlands as
              Naharayim, I would appreciate a correction on that point if anyone is
              able. From what I understand Naharayim has always been used to
              describe the highlands to the west of the Euphrates. To find
              specifically what is meant by Naharayim, perhaps we should use the
              Egyptian equivalent - Naharin.
              There are many 18th dynasty inscriptions that tell of "Aleppo in
              Naharin", or "Tunip of Naharin". We know that Nii (Niy) was on the
              east bank of the Orontes and that the Egyptians place Nii in Naharin.
              Perhaps Aram-Naharayim simply refers to the river-country (highlands),
              in Syria, between the Orontes and the Euphrates. It was only later
              around the 1st century AD that the terminology shifted to refer to the
              land between the Tigris and Euphrates.

              Regards, Jon Smyth
              Toronto, CAN.

              --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Garold Mills" <gmills4248@...> wrote:
              >
              > All,
              > I use the term Mesopotamia for the region around the rivers. However
              it seems to be very flexible. I think the term Fertile Crescent is the
              often used term for the are including Mesopotamia and Syria and
              Levantine coast.
              >




              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • victor
              I I haven t been following the recent discussions on ANE, nor am I an historical geographer, but on this issue you might be interested in J. J. Finkelstein,
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 4, 2007
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                I I haven't been following the recent discussions on ANE, nor am I an
                historical geographer, but on this issue you might be interested in J. J.
                Finkelstein, "Mesopotamia", JNES 21 (1962), 73-92

                Victor Hurowitz

                BGU Beer Sheva



                _____

                From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                driver40386
                Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 2:07 AM
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Mesopotamia and Syria



                I think most people equate the Greek word Mesopotamia with the Semitic
                Aram-Naharayim, an equally hard to define designation.
                I was never able to find Greek usage of the word before the time of
                Alexander. Herodotus, who describes the land between the Tigris &
                Euphrates, never once uses the term.
                The Assyrian highlands were known as Nairi-lands, is this not
                "river-country"? I mention it because if I am not mistaken "Naharayim"
                also means "river-country", not "two rivers".
                As Aram is typically taken to refer to Syria, I suspect Aram-Naharayim
                simply means "river-country (of) Syria", not the "land between the two
                rivers". If this is the case then Mesopotamia must also mean something
                similar.
                Also, I know of no texts that speak of the Assyrian higlands as
                Naharayim, I would appreciate a correction on that point if anyone is
                able. From what I understand Naharayim has always been used to
                describe the highlands to the west of the Euphrates. To find
                specifically what is meant by Naharayim, perhaps we should use the
                Egyptian equivalent - Naharin.
                There are many 18th dynasty inscriptions that tell of "Aleppo in
                Naharin", or "Tunip of Naharin". We know that Nii (Niy) was on the
                east bank of the Orontes and that the Egyptians place Nii in Naharin.
                Perhaps Aram-Naharayim simply refers to the river-country (highlands),
                in Syria, between the Orontes and the Euphrates. It was only later
                around the 1st century AD that the terminology shifted to refer to the
                land between the Tigris and Euphrates.

                Regards, Jon Smyth
                Toronto, CAN.

                --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com, "Garold
                Mills" <gmills4248@...> wrote:
                >
                > All,
                > I use the term Mesopotamia for the region around the rivers. However
                it seems to be very flexible. I think the term Fertile Crescent is the
                often used term for the are including Mesopotamia and Syria and
                Levantine coast.
                >





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • victor
                I I haven t been following the recent discussions on ANE, nor am I an historical geographer, but on this issue you might be interested in J. J. Finkelstein,
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 5, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  I I haven't been following the recent discussions on ANE, nor am I an
                  historical geographer, but on this issue you might be interested in J. J.
                  Finkelstein, "Mesopotamia", JNES 21 (1962), 73-92

                  Victor Hurowitz

                  BGU Beer Sheva



                  _____

                  From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                  Niels Peter Lemche
                  Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 7:21 AM
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: SV: [ANE-2] Re: Mesopotamia and Syria



                  Naharaim is Hebrew and dualis, i.e. the two rivers. So back to original
                  thesis, or a new one is needed: Naharaim was misvocalized by the Masoretes,
                  from nhr(i)m, naharim to naharaim. The Septuagint translates Gen 24:10,
                  naharaim as Mesopotamia, which says that the Masoretes were right, after
                  all.

                  Niels Peter Lemche

                  Niels Peter Lemche

                  -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                  Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                  [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com] På vegne af
                  driver40386
                  Sendt: 5. april 2007 02:07
                  Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                  Emne: [ANE-2] Re: Mesopotamia and Syria

                  I think most people equate the Greek word Mesopotamia with the Semitic
                  Aram-Naharayim, an equally hard to define designation.
                  I was never able to find Greek usage of the word before the time of
                  Alexander. Herodotus, who describes the land between the Tigris &
                  Euphrates, never once uses the term.
                  The Assyrian highlands were known as Nairi-lands, is this not
                  "river-country"? I mention it because if I am not mistaken "Naharayim"
                  also means "river-country", not "two rivers".
                  As Aram is typically taken to refer to Syria, I suspect Aram-Naharayim
                  simply means "river-country (of) Syria", not the "land between the two
                  rivers". If this is the case then Mesopotamia must also mean something
                  similar.
                  Also, I know of no texts that speak of the Assyrian higlands as
                  Naharayim, I would appreciate a correction on that point if anyone is
                  able. From what I understand Naharayim has always been used to
                  describe the highlands to the west of the Euphrates. To find
                  specifically what is meant by Naharayim, perhaps we should use the
                  Egyptian equivalent - Naharin.
                  There are many 18th dynasty inscriptions that tell of "Aleppo in
                  Naharin", or "Tunip of Naharin". We know that Nii (Niy) was on the
                  east bank of the Orontes and that the Egyptians place Nii in Naharin.
                  Perhaps Aram-Naharayim simply refers to the river-country (highlands),
                  in Syria, between the Orontes and the Euphrates. It was only later
                  around the 1st century AD that the terminology shifted to refer to the
                  land between the Tigris and Euphrates.

                  Regards, Jon Smyth
                  Toronto, CAN.

                  --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com, "Garold
                  Mills" <gmills4248@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > All,
                  > I use the term Mesopotamia for the region around the rivers. However
                  it seems to be very flexible. I think the term Fertile Crescent is the
                  often used term for the are including Mesopotamia and Syria and
                  Levantine coast.
                  >

                  Yahoo! Groups Links





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • driver40386
                  I suspect the issue should be which two rivers would naharayim refer to? If we find no Hebrew (naharayim) nor Egyptian (naharin) referring to the highlands
                  Message 8 of 12 , Apr 5, 2007
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                    I suspect the issue should be which 'two rivers' would "naharayim"
                    refer to?
                    If we find no Hebrew (naharayim) nor Egyptian (naharin) referring to
                    the highlands east of the Euphrates, that is to say between the Tigris
                    and Euphrates, then surely both terms must refer to the land between
                    the Orontes & Euphrates. In both cases we have highland
                    river-countries between two major rivers.

                    (quote)
                    "The Egyptian inscriptions of this period frequently mention the name
                    of Naharain, or land of two rivers, as a large country in the
                    neighbourhood of the Upper Ruthen. It is generally understood to be
                    the country of Mesopotamia. The Arabs at the present day are
                    accustomed to call the fertile country to the west of Damascus, which
                    is watered by many rivers, by the name of Naharain."
                    Egypt under the Pharaohs, Brugsch, 1902, p.138.

                    So a hundred years ago the locals still used the term Naharain to
                    describe the "river-country" between the Orontes and Euphrates.
                    Redford, quoting Astour writes:"The Egyptians also employ the vague
                    geographical term Naharin, "river-land," for Mittani (M. Astour, JNES
                    31 [1972], 103.

                    Can we equate Naharin with Naharaim (Naharayim)?

                    Many thanks for your input.
                    Jon Smyth
                    Toronto, CAN


                    --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Naharaim is Hebrew and dualis, i.e. the two rivers. So back to
                    original thesis, or a new one is needed: Naharaim was misvocalized by
                    the Masoretes, from nhr(i)m, naharim to naharaim. The Septuagint
                    translates Gen 24:10, naharaim as Mesopotamia, which says that the
                    Masoretes were right, after all.
                    >
                    > Niels Peter Lemche
                    >
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