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Re: [ANE-2] Mesopotamia and Syria

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  • Gene Greenwood
    Trudy, For all my studies, Mesopotamia includes the land between the rivers and the the river valleys themselves. The term would include anybody that lived off
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 2 11:23 AM
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      Trudy,
      For all my studies, Mesopotamia includes the land between the rivers and the the river valleys themselves. The term would include anybody that lived off of the rivers and thus would include those on the 'outside' but close to the rivers. In ancient every border was fuzzy.
      Gene . . . .
      Gene Greenwood


      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Beatrice Hopkinson <beahopkinson@...>
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, April 2, 2007 9:47:51 AM
      Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Mesopotamia and Syria

      Trudy,
      I had checked the website and found they were using 'broad' dates,
      since
      this list is well informed I thought I'd check specifically for Syria.

      I'd like the lists thoughts on another matter - does everybody
      accept that
      Mesopotamia is strictly limited to 'between the Tigris and Euphrates' and
      would that include cities on the west bank of the Euphrates in Syria -
      which is not 'between'?

      Bea

      >Bea,
      >3200 BCE would be Early Bronze Age, if you are using that system of terms.
      >Take a look at the Umm al-Marra website that you posted & you can see the
      >dating they use.
      >Trudy Kawami
    • Beatrice Hopkinson
      ... That is what I thought, but I wondered if Northern Syria was defined somewhat differently? ... Frankly, as I am dealing with Beveled Rim Bowls I was
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 2 4:09 PM
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        >I am not aware that there are any strigently defined "borders" to
        >Mespopotamia. The site of Mari is in modern Syria but was clearly part
        >of the "Mesopo-centric" world.

        That is what I thought, but I wondered if Northern Syria was defined
        somewhat differently?

        >Mesopotamia is just a Greek term for a
        >general region that is still used for convenience sake, but I would not
        >feel obliged to exclude a site on the basis of which bank of the
        >Euphrates it lay on.

        Frankly, as I am dealing with Beveled Rim Bowls I was inclined to
        include everywhere they occur as 'Mesopotamia' . But see the following:

        Mesopotamia :
        an ancient region of southwestern Asia in present-day Iraq, lying between
        the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. Its alluvial plains were the site of the
        civilizations of Akkad, Sumer, Babylonia, and Assyria.

        DERIVATIVES
        Mesopotamian adjective & noun
        ORIGIN from Greek mesos "middle" + potamos "river."

        As always I look to the list for corrections :)

        Beatrice Hopkinson
      • Garold Mills
        All, I use the term Mesopotamia for the region around the rivers. However it seems to be very flexible. I think the term Fertile Crescent is the often used
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 3 7:19 AM
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          All,
          I use the term Mesopotamia for the region around the rivers. However it seems to be very flexible. I think the term Fertile Crescent is the often used term for the are including Mesopotamia and Syria and Levantine coast.

          Garold Mills
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Gene Greenwood<mailto:gwoodgeno@...>
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 1:23 PM
          Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Mesopotamia and Syria


          Trudy,
          For all my studies, Mesopotamia includes the land between the rivers and the the river valleys themselves. The term would include anybody that lived off of the rivers and thus would include those on the 'outside' but close to the rivers. In ancient every border was fuzzy.
          Gene . . . .
          Gene Greenwood

          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Beatrice Hopkinson <beahopkinson@...<mailto:beahopkinson%40earthlink.net>>
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, April 2, 2007 9:47:51 AM
          Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Mesopotamia and Syria

          Trudy,
          I had checked the website and found they were using 'broad' dates,
          since
          this list is well informed I thought I'd check specifically for Syria.

          I'd like the lists thoughts on another matter - does everybody
          accept that
          Mesopotamia is strictly limited to 'between the Tigris and Euphrates' and
          would that include cities on the west bank of the Euphrates in Syria -
          which is not 'between'?

          Bea

          >Bea,
          >3200 BCE would be Early Bronze Age, if you are using that system of terms.
          >Take a look at the Umm al-Marra website that you posted & you can see the
          >dating they use.
          >Trudy Kawami




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Trudy Kawami
          Bea, Bevel-rim bowls also occur in SW Iran which no one calls Mesopotamia. ... what is now Syria & even the Iranian plateau a little. There is no question that
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 3 8:07 AM
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            Bea,
            Bevel-rim bowls also occur in SW Iran which no one calls Mesopotamia.
            :-) They seems to be part of the Uruk "system" even when it spread into
            what is now Syria & even the Iranian plateau a little. There is no
            question that they (& the function they served) originated in
            Mesopotamia, but for a brief period they spread much further with the
            political/cultural/military/religious/whatever that we call the Uruk
            expansion.
            Trudy Kawami

            ________________________________

            From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            Beatrice Hopkinson
            Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 7:09 PM
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Mesopotamia and Syria



            >I am not aware that there are any strigently defined "borders" to
            >Mespopotamia. The site of Mari is in modern Syria but was clearly part
            >of the "Mesopo-centric" world.

            That is what I thought, but I wondered if Northern Syria was defined
            somewhat differently?

            >Mesopotamia is just a Greek term for a
            >general region that is still used for convenience sake, but I would not
            >feel obliged to exclude a site on the basis of which bank of the
            >Euphrates it lay on.

            Frankly, as I am dealing with Beveled Rim Bowls I was inclined to
            include everywhere they occur as 'Mesopotamia' . But see the following:

            Mesopotamia :
            an ancient region of southwestern Asia in present-day Iraq, lying
            between
            the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. Its alluvial plains were the site of
            the
            civilizations of Akkad, Sumer, Babylonia, and Assyria.

            DERIVATIVES
            Mesopotamian adjective & noun
            ORIGIN from Greek mesos "middle" + potamos "river."

            As always I look to the list for corrections :)

            Beatrice Hopkinson





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Beatrice Hopkinson
            Trudy, Well I have been referring to them now as occurring in Mesopotamia and its hinterland - that should cover it don t you think. Bea
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 3 9:58 AM
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              Trudy,

              Well I have been referring to them now as occurring in Mesopotamia
              and
              its hinterland - that should cover it don't you think.

              Bea

              >Bea,
              >Bevel-rim bowls also occur in SW Iran which no one calls Mesopotamia.
              >:-) They seems to be part of the Uruk "system" even when it spread into
              >what is now Syria & even the Iranian plateau a little. There is no
              >question that they (& the function they served) originated in
              >Mesopotamia, but for a brief period they spread much further with the
              >political/cultural/military/religious/whatever that we call the Uruk
              >expansion.
              >Trudy Kawami
              >
              >________________________________
              >
              >From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              >Beatrice Hopkinson
              >Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 7:09 PM
              >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Mesopotamia and Syria
              >
              >
              >
              >>I am not aware that there are any strigently defined "borders" to
              >>Mespopotamia. The site of Mari is in modern Syria but was clearly part
              >>of the "Mesopo-centric" world.
              >
              >That is what I thought, but I wondered if Northern Syria was defined
              >somewhat differently?
              >
              >>Mesopotamia is just a Greek term for a
              >>general region that is still used for convenience sake, but I would not
              >>feel obliged to exclude a site on the basis of which bank of the
              >>Euphrates it lay on.
              >
              >Frankly, as I am dealing with Beveled Rim Bowls I was inclined to
              >include everywhere they occur as 'Mesopotamia' . But see the following:
              >
              >Mesopotamia :
              >an ancient region of southwestern Asia in present-day Iraq, lying
              >between
              >the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. Its alluvial plains were the site of
              >the
              >civilizations of Akkad, Sumer, Babylonia, and Assyria.
              >
              >DERIVATIVES
              >Mesopotamian adjective & noun
              >ORIGIN from Greek mesos "middle" + potamos "river."
              >
              >As always I look to the list for corrections :)
              >
              >Beatrice Hopkinson
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
            • driver40386
              I think most people equate the Greek word Mesopotamia with the Semitic Aram-Naharayim, an equally hard to define designation. I was never able to find Greek
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 4 5:06 PM
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                I think most people equate the Greek word Mesopotamia with the Semitic
                Aram-Naharayim, an equally hard to define designation.
                I was never able to find Greek usage of the word before the time of
                Alexander. Herodotus, who describes the land between the Tigris &
                Euphrates, never once uses the term.
                The Assyrian highlands were known as Nairi-lands, is this not
                "river-country"? I mention it because if I am not mistaken "Naharayim"
                also means "river-country", not "two rivers".
                As Aram is typically taken to refer to Syria, I suspect Aram-Naharayim
                simply means "river-country (of) Syria", not the "land between the two
                rivers". If this is the case then Mesopotamia must also mean something
                similar.
                Also, I know of no texts that speak of the Assyrian higlands as
                Naharayim, I would appreciate a correction on that point if anyone is
                able. From what I understand Naharayim has always been used to
                describe the highlands to the west of the Euphrates. To find
                specifically what is meant by Naharayim, perhaps we should use the
                Egyptian equivalent - Naharin.
                There are many 18th dynasty inscriptions that tell of "Aleppo in
                Naharin", or "Tunip of Naharin". We know that Nii (Niy) was on the
                east bank of the Orontes and that the Egyptians place Nii in Naharin.
                Perhaps Aram-Naharayim simply refers to the river-country (highlands),
                in Syria, between the Orontes and the Euphrates. It was only later
                around the 1st century AD that the terminology shifted to refer to the
                land between the Tigris and Euphrates.

                Regards, Jon Smyth
                Toronto, CAN.

                --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Garold Mills" <gmills4248@...> wrote:
                >
                > All,
                > I use the term Mesopotamia for the region around the rivers. However
                it seems to be very flexible. I think the term Fertile Crescent is the
                often used term for the are including Mesopotamia and Syria and
                Levantine coast.
                >
              • Niels Peter Lemche
                Naharaim is Hebrew and dualis, i.e. the two rivers. So back to original thesis, or a new one is needed: Naharaim was misvocalized by the Masoretes, from
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 4 10:20 PM
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                  Naharaim is Hebrew and dualis, i.e. the two rivers. So back to original thesis, or a new one is needed: Naharaim was misvocalized by the Masoretes, from nhr(i)m, naharim to naharaim. The Septuagint translates Gen 24:10, naharaim as Mesopotamia, which says that the Masoretes were right, after all.

                  Niels Peter Lemche



                  Niels Peter Lemche

                  -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                  Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af driver40386
                  Sendt: 5. april 2007 02:07
                  Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  Emne: [ANE-2] Re: Mesopotamia and Syria

                  I think most people equate the Greek word Mesopotamia with the Semitic
                  Aram-Naharayim, an equally hard to define designation.
                  I was never able to find Greek usage of the word before the time of
                  Alexander. Herodotus, who describes the land between the Tigris &
                  Euphrates, never once uses the term.
                  The Assyrian highlands were known as Nairi-lands, is this not
                  "river-country"? I mention it because if I am not mistaken "Naharayim"
                  also means "river-country", not "two rivers".
                  As Aram is typically taken to refer to Syria, I suspect Aram-Naharayim
                  simply means "river-country (of) Syria", not the "land between the two
                  rivers". If this is the case then Mesopotamia must also mean something
                  similar.
                  Also, I know of no texts that speak of the Assyrian higlands as
                  Naharayim, I would appreciate a correction on that point if anyone is
                  able. From what I understand Naharayim has always been used to
                  describe the highlands to the west of the Euphrates. To find
                  specifically what is meant by Naharayim, perhaps we should use the
                  Egyptian equivalent - Naharin.
                  There are many 18th dynasty inscriptions that tell of "Aleppo in
                  Naharin", or "Tunip of Naharin". We know that Nii (Niy) was on the
                  east bank of the Orontes and that the Egyptians place Nii in Naharin.
                  Perhaps Aram-Naharayim simply refers to the river-country (highlands),
                  in Syria, between the Orontes and the Euphrates. It was only later
                  around the 1st century AD that the terminology shifted to refer to the
                  land between the Tigris and Euphrates.

                  Regards, Jon Smyth
                  Toronto, CAN.

                  --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Garold Mills" <gmills4248@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > All,
                  > I use the term Mesopotamia for the region around the rivers. However
                  it seems to be very flexible. I think the term Fertile Crescent is the
                  often used term for the are including Mesopotamia and Syria and
                  Levantine coast.
                  >




                  Yahoo! Groups Links
                • victor
                  I I haven t been following the recent discussions on ANE, nor am I an historical geographer, but on this issue you might be interested in J. J. Finkelstein,
                  Message 8 of 12 , Apr 4 11:18 PM
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                    I I haven't been following the recent discussions on ANE, nor am I an
                    historical geographer, but on this issue you might be interested in J. J.
                    Finkelstein, "Mesopotamia", JNES 21 (1962), 73-92

                    Victor Hurowitz

                    BGU Beer Sheva



                    _____

                    From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                    driver40386
                    Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 2:07 AM
                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Mesopotamia and Syria



                    I think most people equate the Greek word Mesopotamia with the Semitic
                    Aram-Naharayim, an equally hard to define designation.
                    I was never able to find Greek usage of the word before the time of
                    Alexander. Herodotus, who describes the land between the Tigris &
                    Euphrates, never once uses the term.
                    The Assyrian highlands were known as Nairi-lands, is this not
                    "river-country"? I mention it because if I am not mistaken "Naharayim"
                    also means "river-country", not "two rivers".
                    As Aram is typically taken to refer to Syria, I suspect Aram-Naharayim
                    simply means "river-country (of) Syria", not the "land between the two
                    rivers". If this is the case then Mesopotamia must also mean something
                    similar.
                    Also, I know of no texts that speak of the Assyrian higlands as
                    Naharayim, I would appreciate a correction on that point if anyone is
                    able. From what I understand Naharayim has always been used to
                    describe the highlands to the west of the Euphrates. To find
                    specifically what is meant by Naharayim, perhaps we should use the
                    Egyptian equivalent - Naharin.
                    There are many 18th dynasty inscriptions that tell of "Aleppo in
                    Naharin", or "Tunip of Naharin". We know that Nii (Niy) was on the
                    east bank of the Orontes and that the Egyptians place Nii in Naharin.
                    Perhaps Aram-Naharayim simply refers to the river-country (highlands),
                    in Syria, between the Orontes and the Euphrates. It was only later
                    around the 1st century AD that the terminology shifted to refer to the
                    land between the Tigris and Euphrates.

                    Regards, Jon Smyth
                    Toronto, CAN.

                    --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com, "Garold
                    Mills" <gmills4248@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > All,
                    > I use the term Mesopotamia for the region around the rivers. However
                    it seems to be very flexible. I think the term Fertile Crescent is the
                    often used term for the are including Mesopotamia and Syria and
                    Levantine coast.
                    >





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • victor
                    I I haven t been following the recent discussions on ANE, nor am I an historical geographer, but on this issue you might be interested in J. J. Finkelstein,
                    Message 9 of 12 , Apr 5 2:00 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I I haven't been following the recent discussions on ANE, nor am I an
                      historical geographer, but on this issue you might be interested in J. J.
                      Finkelstein, "Mesopotamia", JNES 21 (1962), 73-92

                      Victor Hurowitz

                      BGU Beer Sheva



                      _____

                      From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                      Niels Peter Lemche
                      Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 7:21 AM
                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: SV: [ANE-2] Re: Mesopotamia and Syria



                      Naharaim is Hebrew and dualis, i.e. the two rivers. So back to original
                      thesis, or a new one is needed: Naharaim was misvocalized by the Masoretes,
                      from nhr(i)m, naharim to naharaim. The Septuagint translates Gen 24:10,
                      naharaim as Mesopotamia, which says that the Masoretes were right, after
                      all.

                      Niels Peter Lemche

                      Niels Peter Lemche

                      -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                      Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                      [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com] På vegne af
                      driver40386
                      Sendt: 5. april 2007 02:07
                      Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                      Emne: [ANE-2] Re: Mesopotamia and Syria

                      I think most people equate the Greek word Mesopotamia with the Semitic
                      Aram-Naharayim, an equally hard to define designation.
                      I was never able to find Greek usage of the word before the time of
                      Alexander. Herodotus, who describes the land between the Tigris &
                      Euphrates, never once uses the term.
                      The Assyrian highlands were known as Nairi-lands, is this not
                      "river-country"? I mention it because if I am not mistaken "Naharayim"
                      also means "river-country", not "two rivers".
                      As Aram is typically taken to refer to Syria, I suspect Aram-Naharayim
                      simply means "river-country (of) Syria", not the "land between the two
                      rivers". If this is the case then Mesopotamia must also mean something
                      similar.
                      Also, I know of no texts that speak of the Assyrian higlands as
                      Naharayim, I would appreciate a correction on that point if anyone is
                      able. From what I understand Naharayim has always been used to
                      describe the highlands to the west of the Euphrates. To find
                      specifically what is meant by Naharayim, perhaps we should use the
                      Egyptian equivalent - Naharin.
                      There are many 18th dynasty inscriptions that tell of "Aleppo in
                      Naharin", or "Tunip of Naharin". We know that Nii (Niy) was on the
                      east bank of the Orontes and that the Egyptians place Nii in Naharin.
                      Perhaps Aram-Naharayim simply refers to the river-country (highlands),
                      in Syria, between the Orontes and the Euphrates. It was only later
                      around the 1st century AD that the terminology shifted to refer to the
                      land between the Tigris and Euphrates.

                      Regards, Jon Smyth
                      Toronto, CAN.

                      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com, "Garold
                      Mills" <gmills4248@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > All,
                      > I use the term Mesopotamia for the region around the rivers. However
                      it seems to be very flexible. I think the term Fertile Crescent is the
                      often used term for the are including Mesopotamia and Syria and
                      Levantine coast.
                      >

                      Yahoo! Groups Links





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • driver40386
                      I suspect the issue should be which two rivers would naharayim refer to? If we find no Hebrew (naharayim) nor Egyptian (naharin) referring to the highlands
                      Message 10 of 12 , Apr 5 6:13 PM
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                        I suspect the issue should be which 'two rivers' would "naharayim"
                        refer to?
                        If we find no Hebrew (naharayim) nor Egyptian (naharin) referring to
                        the highlands east of the Euphrates, that is to say between the Tigris
                        and Euphrates, then surely both terms must refer to the land between
                        the Orontes & Euphrates. In both cases we have highland
                        river-countries between two major rivers.

                        (quote)
                        "The Egyptian inscriptions of this period frequently mention the name
                        of Naharain, or land of two rivers, as a large country in the
                        neighbourhood of the Upper Ruthen. It is generally understood to be
                        the country of Mesopotamia. The Arabs at the present day are
                        accustomed to call the fertile country to the west of Damascus, which
                        is watered by many rivers, by the name of Naharain."
                        Egypt under the Pharaohs, Brugsch, 1902, p.138.

                        So a hundred years ago the locals still used the term Naharain to
                        describe the "river-country" between the Orontes and Euphrates.
                        Redford, quoting Astour writes:"The Egyptians also employ the vague
                        geographical term Naharin, "river-land," for Mittani (M. Astour, JNES
                        31 [1972], 103.

                        Can we equate Naharin with Naharaim (Naharayim)?

                        Many thanks for your input.
                        Jon Smyth
                        Toronto, CAN


                        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Naharaim is Hebrew and dualis, i.e. the two rivers. So back to
                        original thesis, or a new one is needed: Naharaim was misvocalized by
                        the Masoretes, from nhr(i)m, naharim to naharaim. The Septuagint
                        translates Gen 24:10, naharaim as Mesopotamia, which says that the
                        Masoretes were right, after all.
                        >
                        > Niels Peter Lemche
                        >
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