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Re: [ANE-2] Mesopotamia and Syria

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  • Gene Greenwood
    Trudy, For all my studies, Mesopotamia includes the land between the rivers and the the river valleys themselves. The term would include anybody that lived off
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 2, 2007
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      Trudy,
      For all my studies, Mesopotamia includes the land between the rivers and the the river valleys themselves. The term would include anybody that lived off of the rivers and thus would include those on the 'outside' but close to the rivers. In ancient every border was fuzzy.
      Gene . . . .
      Gene Greenwood


      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Beatrice Hopkinson <beahopkinson@...>
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, April 2, 2007 9:47:51 AM
      Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Mesopotamia and Syria

      Trudy,
      I had checked the website and found they were using 'broad' dates,
      since
      this list is well informed I thought I'd check specifically for Syria.

      I'd like the lists thoughts on another matter - does everybody
      accept that
      Mesopotamia is strictly limited to 'between the Tigris and Euphrates' and
      would that include cities on the west bank of the Euphrates in Syria -
      which is not 'between'?

      Bea

      >Bea,
      >3200 BCE would be Early Bronze Age, if you are using that system of terms.
      >Take a look at the Umm al-Marra website that you posted & you can see the
      >dating they use.
      >Trudy Kawami
    • Trudy Kawami
      I am not aware that there are any strigently defined borders to Mespopotamia. The site of Mari is in modern Syria but was clearly part of the
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 2, 2007
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        I am not aware that there are any strigently defined "borders" to
        Mespopotamia. The site of Mari is in modern Syria but was clearly part
        of the "Mesopo-centric" world. Mesopotamia is just a Greek term for a
        general region that is still used for convenience sake, but I would not
        feel obliged to exclude a site on the basis of which bank of the
        Euphrates it lay on.
        Trudy Kawami

        ________________________________

        From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        Beatrice Hopkinson
        Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 12:48 PM
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Mesopotamia and Syria



        Trudy,
        I had checked the website and found they were using 'broad' dates,
        since
        this list is well informed I thought I'd check specifically for Syria.

        I'd like the lists thoughts on another matter - does everybody
        accept that
        Mesopotamia is strictly limited to 'between the Tigris and Euphrates'
        and
        would that include cities on the west bank of the Euphrates in Syria -
        which is not 'between'?

        Bea

        >Bea,
        >3200 BCE would be Early Bronze Age, if you are using that system of
        terms.
        >Take a look at the Umm al-Marra website that you posted & you can see
        the
        >dating they use.
        >Trudy Kawami
        >
        >________________________________
        >
        >From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> on behalf
        of Beatrice Hopkinson
        >Sent: Fri 3/30/2007 7:12 PM
        >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
        >Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Oldest Semitic inscriptions
        >
        >
        >
        >>Bea,
        >>You might find what you are looking for in P. Akkermans & G. Schwartz,
        >
        >Thank you Trudy for the reference - the material I am dealing with has
        >been dated 3200 BC at Qraya (near Terqa) in Syria, and I was wondering
        >what part of the Bronze Age this date might fall into, bearing in mind
        >that dates are always being updated as new evidence comes to light.
        >
        >Beatrice Hopkinson
        >
        >>The Archaeology of Syria (Cambridge U. Press, 2003) esp chapters 6 &
        7.
        >>My understanding is that chronological terminology is moving away from
        >>"Early Bronze Age," etc. with dating brackets to something a little
        >>closer to "actual" time and considering the region in in terms of its
        >>own developement, not just influence from the "outside," i.e. the Uruk
        >>expansion por the campaigns of Naram Sin.
        >>Trudy Kawami
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Beatrice Hopkinson
        ... That is what I thought, but I wondered if Northern Syria was defined somewhat differently? ... Frankly, as I am dealing with Beveled Rim Bowls I was
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 2, 2007
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          >I am not aware that there are any strigently defined "borders" to
          >Mespopotamia. The site of Mari is in modern Syria but was clearly part
          >of the "Mesopo-centric" world.

          That is what I thought, but I wondered if Northern Syria was defined
          somewhat differently?

          >Mesopotamia is just a Greek term for a
          >general region that is still used for convenience sake, but I would not
          >feel obliged to exclude a site on the basis of which bank of the
          >Euphrates it lay on.

          Frankly, as I am dealing with Beveled Rim Bowls I was inclined to
          include everywhere they occur as 'Mesopotamia' . But see the following:

          Mesopotamia :
          an ancient region of southwestern Asia in present-day Iraq, lying between
          the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. Its alluvial plains were the site of the
          civilizations of Akkad, Sumer, Babylonia, and Assyria.

          DERIVATIVES
          Mesopotamian adjective & noun
          ORIGIN from Greek mesos "middle" + potamos "river."

          As always I look to the list for corrections :)

          Beatrice Hopkinson
        • Garold Mills
          All, I use the term Mesopotamia for the region around the rivers. However it seems to be very flexible. I think the term Fertile Crescent is the often used
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 3, 2007
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            All,
            I use the term Mesopotamia for the region around the rivers. However it seems to be very flexible. I think the term Fertile Crescent is the often used term for the are including Mesopotamia and Syria and Levantine coast.

            Garold Mills
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Gene Greenwood<mailto:gwoodgeno@...>
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 1:23 PM
            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Mesopotamia and Syria


            Trudy,
            For all my studies, Mesopotamia includes the land between the rivers and the the river valleys themselves. The term would include anybody that lived off of the rivers and thus would include those on the 'outside' but close to the rivers. In ancient every border was fuzzy.
            Gene . . . .
            Gene Greenwood

            ----- Original Message ----
            From: Beatrice Hopkinson <beahopkinson@...<mailto:beahopkinson%40earthlink.net>>
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, April 2, 2007 9:47:51 AM
            Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Mesopotamia and Syria

            Trudy,
            I had checked the website and found they were using 'broad' dates,
            since
            this list is well informed I thought I'd check specifically for Syria.

            I'd like the lists thoughts on another matter - does everybody
            accept that
            Mesopotamia is strictly limited to 'between the Tigris and Euphrates' and
            would that include cities on the west bank of the Euphrates in Syria -
            which is not 'between'?

            Bea

            >Bea,
            >3200 BCE would be Early Bronze Age, if you are using that system of terms.
            >Take a look at the Umm al-Marra website that you posted & you can see the
            >dating they use.
            >Trudy Kawami




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Trudy Kawami
            Bea, Bevel-rim bowls also occur in SW Iran which no one calls Mesopotamia. ... what is now Syria & even the Iranian plateau a little. There is no question that
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 3, 2007
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              Bea,
              Bevel-rim bowls also occur in SW Iran which no one calls Mesopotamia.
              :-) They seems to be part of the Uruk "system" even when it spread into
              what is now Syria & even the Iranian plateau a little. There is no
              question that they (& the function they served) originated in
              Mesopotamia, but for a brief period they spread much further with the
              political/cultural/military/religious/whatever that we call the Uruk
              expansion.
              Trudy Kawami

              ________________________________

              From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              Beatrice Hopkinson
              Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 7:09 PM
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Mesopotamia and Syria



              >I am not aware that there are any strigently defined "borders" to
              >Mespopotamia. The site of Mari is in modern Syria but was clearly part
              >of the "Mesopo-centric" world.

              That is what I thought, but I wondered if Northern Syria was defined
              somewhat differently?

              >Mesopotamia is just a Greek term for a
              >general region that is still used for convenience sake, but I would not
              >feel obliged to exclude a site on the basis of which bank of the
              >Euphrates it lay on.

              Frankly, as I am dealing with Beveled Rim Bowls I was inclined to
              include everywhere they occur as 'Mesopotamia' . But see the following:

              Mesopotamia :
              an ancient region of southwestern Asia in present-day Iraq, lying
              between
              the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. Its alluvial plains were the site of
              the
              civilizations of Akkad, Sumer, Babylonia, and Assyria.

              DERIVATIVES
              Mesopotamian adjective & noun
              ORIGIN from Greek mesos "middle" + potamos "river."

              As always I look to the list for corrections :)

              Beatrice Hopkinson





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Beatrice Hopkinson
              Trudy, Well I have been referring to them now as occurring in Mesopotamia and its hinterland - that should cover it don t you think. Bea
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 3, 2007
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                Trudy,

                Well I have been referring to them now as occurring in Mesopotamia
                and
                its hinterland - that should cover it don't you think.

                Bea

                >Bea,
                >Bevel-rim bowls also occur in SW Iran which no one calls Mesopotamia.
                >:-) They seems to be part of the Uruk "system" even when it spread into
                >what is now Syria & even the Iranian plateau a little. There is no
                >question that they (& the function they served) originated in
                >Mesopotamia, but for a brief period they spread much further with the
                >political/cultural/military/religious/whatever that we call the Uruk
                >expansion.
                >Trudy Kawami
                >
                >________________________________
                >
                >From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                >Beatrice Hopkinson
                >Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 7:09 PM
                >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Mesopotamia and Syria
                >
                >
                >
                >>I am not aware that there are any strigently defined "borders" to
                >>Mespopotamia. The site of Mari is in modern Syria but was clearly part
                >>of the "Mesopo-centric" world.
                >
                >That is what I thought, but I wondered if Northern Syria was defined
                >somewhat differently?
                >
                >>Mesopotamia is just a Greek term for a
                >>general region that is still used for convenience sake, but I would not
                >>feel obliged to exclude a site on the basis of which bank of the
                >>Euphrates it lay on.
                >
                >Frankly, as I am dealing with Beveled Rim Bowls I was inclined to
                >include everywhere they occur as 'Mesopotamia' . But see the following:
                >
                >Mesopotamia :
                >an ancient region of southwestern Asia in present-day Iraq, lying
                >between
                >the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. Its alluvial plains were the site of
                >the
                >civilizations of Akkad, Sumer, Babylonia, and Assyria.
                >
                >DERIVATIVES
                >Mesopotamian adjective & noun
                >ORIGIN from Greek mesos "middle" + potamos "river."
                >
                >As always I look to the list for corrections :)
                >
                >Beatrice Hopkinson
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
              • driver40386
                I think most people equate the Greek word Mesopotamia with the Semitic Aram-Naharayim, an equally hard to define designation. I was never able to find Greek
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 4, 2007
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                  I think most people equate the Greek word Mesopotamia with the Semitic
                  Aram-Naharayim, an equally hard to define designation.
                  I was never able to find Greek usage of the word before the time of
                  Alexander. Herodotus, who describes the land between the Tigris &
                  Euphrates, never once uses the term.
                  The Assyrian highlands were known as Nairi-lands, is this not
                  "river-country"? I mention it because if I am not mistaken "Naharayim"
                  also means "river-country", not "two rivers".
                  As Aram is typically taken to refer to Syria, I suspect Aram-Naharayim
                  simply means "river-country (of) Syria", not the "land between the two
                  rivers". If this is the case then Mesopotamia must also mean something
                  similar.
                  Also, I know of no texts that speak of the Assyrian higlands as
                  Naharayim, I would appreciate a correction on that point if anyone is
                  able. From what I understand Naharayim has always been used to
                  describe the highlands to the west of the Euphrates. To find
                  specifically what is meant by Naharayim, perhaps we should use the
                  Egyptian equivalent - Naharin.
                  There are many 18th dynasty inscriptions that tell of "Aleppo in
                  Naharin", or "Tunip of Naharin". We know that Nii (Niy) was on the
                  east bank of the Orontes and that the Egyptians place Nii in Naharin.
                  Perhaps Aram-Naharayim simply refers to the river-country (highlands),
                  in Syria, between the Orontes and the Euphrates. It was only later
                  around the 1st century AD that the terminology shifted to refer to the
                  land between the Tigris and Euphrates.

                  Regards, Jon Smyth
                  Toronto, CAN.

                  --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Garold Mills" <gmills4248@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > All,
                  > I use the term Mesopotamia for the region around the rivers. However
                  it seems to be very flexible. I think the term Fertile Crescent is the
                  often used term for the are including Mesopotamia and Syria and
                  Levantine coast.
                  >
                • Niels Peter Lemche
                  Naharaim is Hebrew and dualis, i.e. the two rivers. So back to original thesis, or a new one is needed: Naharaim was misvocalized by the Masoretes, from
                  Message 8 of 12 , Apr 4, 2007
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                    Naharaim is Hebrew and dualis, i.e. the two rivers. So back to original thesis, or a new one is needed: Naharaim was misvocalized by the Masoretes, from nhr(i)m, naharim to naharaim. The Septuagint translates Gen 24:10, naharaim as Mesopotamia, which says that the Masoretes were right, after all.

                    Niels Peter Lemche



                    Niels Peter Lemche

                    -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                    Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af driver40386
                    Sendt: 5. april 2007 02:07
                    Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Emne: [ANE-2] Re: Mesopotamia and Syria

                    I think most people equate the Greek word Mesopotamia with the Semitic
                    Aram-Naharayim, an equally hard to define designation.
                    I was never able to find Greek usage of the word before the time of
                    Alexander. Herodotus, who describes the land between the Tigris &
                    Euphrates, never once uses the term.
                    The Assyrian highlands were known as Nairi-lands, is this not
                    "river-country"? I mention it because if I am not mistaken "Naharayim"
                    also means "river-country", not "two rivers".
                    As Aram is typically taken to refer to Syria, I suspect Aram-Naharayim
                    simply means "river-country (of) Syria", not the "land between the two
                    rivers". If this is the case then Mesopotamia must also mean something
                    similar.
                    Also, I know of no texts that speak of the Assyrian higlands as
                    Naharayim, I would appreciate a correction on that point if anyone is
                    able. From what I understand Naharayim has always been used to
                    describe the highlands to the west of the Euphrates. To find
                    specifically what is meant by Naharayim, perhaps we should use the
                    Egyptian equivalent - Naharin.
                    There are many 18th dynasty inscriptions that tell of "Aleppo in
                    Naharin", or "Tunip of Naharin". We know that Nii (Niy) was on the
                    east bank of the Orontes and that the Egyptians place Nii in Naharin.
                    Perhaps Aram-Naharayim simply refers to the river-country (highlands),
                    in Syria, between the Orontes and the Euphrates. It was only later
                    around the 1st century AD that the terminology shifted to refer to the
                    land between the Tigris and Euphrates.

                    Regards, Jon Smyth
                    Toronto, CAN.

                    --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Garold Mills" <gmills4248@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > All,
                    > I use the term Mesopotamia for the region around the rivers. However
                    it seems to be very flexible. I think the term Fertile Crescent is the
                    often used term for the are including Mesopotamia and Syria and
                    Levantine coast.
                    >




                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                  • victor
                    I I haven t been following the recent discussions on ANE, nor am I an historical geographer, but on this issue you might be interested in J. J. Finkelstein,
                    Message 9 of 12 , Apr 4, 2007
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                      I I haven't been following the recent discussions on ANE, nor am I an
                      historical geographer, but on this issue you might be interested in J. J.
                      Finkelstein, "Mesopotamia", JNES 21 (1962), 73-92

                      Victor Hurowitz

                      BGU Beer Sheva



                      _____

                      From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                      driver40386
                      Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 2:07 AM
                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Mesopotamia and Syria



                      I think most people equate the Greek word Mesopotamia with the Semitic
                      Aram-Naharayim, an equally hard to define designation.
                      I was never able to find Greek usage of the word before the time of
                      Alexander. Herodotus, who describes the land between the Tigris &
                      Euphrates, never once uses the term.
                      The Assyrian highlands were known as Nairi-lands, is this not
                      "river-country"? I mention it because if I am not mistaken "Naharayim"
                      also means "river-country", not "two rivers".
                      As Aram is typically taken to refer to Syria, I suspect Aram-Naharayim
                      simply means "river-country (of) Syria", not the "land between the two
                      rivers". If this is the case then Mesopotamia must also mean something
                      similar.
                      Also, I know of no texts that speak of the Assyrian higlands as
                      Naharayim, I would appreciate a correction on that point if anyone is
                      able. From what I understand Naharayim has always been used to
                      describe the highlands to the west of the Euphrates. To find
                      specifically what is meant by Naharayim, perhaps we should use the
                      Egyptian equivalent - Naharin.
                      There are many 18th dynasty inscriptions that tell of "Aleppo in
                      Naharin", or "Tunip of Naharin". We know that Nii (Niy) was on the
                      east bank of the Orontes and that the Egyptians place Nii in Naharin.
                      Perhaps Aram-Naharayim simply refers to the river-country (highlands),
                      in Syria, between the Orontes and the Euphrates. It was only later
                      around the 1st century AD that the terminology shifted to refer to the
                      land between the Tigris and Euphrates.

                      Regards, Jon Smyth
                      Toronto, CAN.

                      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com, "Garold
                      Mills" <gmills4248@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > All,
                      > I use the term Mesopotamia for the region around the rivers. However
                      it seems to be very flexible. I think the term Fertile Crescent is the
                      often used term for the are including Mesopotamia and Syria and
                      Levantine coast.
                      >





                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • victor
                      I I haven t been following the recent discussions on ANE, nor am I an historical geographer, but on this issue you might be interested in J. J. Finkelstein,
                      Message 10 of 12 , Apr 5, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I I haven't been following the recent discussions on ANE, nor am I an
                        historical geographer, but on this issue you might be interested in J. J.
                        Finkelstein, "Mesopotamia", JNES 21 (1962), 73-92

                        Victor Hurowitz

                        BGU Beer Sheva



                        _____

                        From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                        Niels Peter Lemche
                        Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 7:21 AM
                        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: SV: [ANE-2] Re: Mesopotamia and Syria



                        Naharaim is Hebrew and dualis, i.e. the two rivers. So back to original
                        thesis, or a new one is needed: Naharaim was misvocalized by the Masoretes,
                        from nhr(i)m, naharim to naharaim. The Septuagint translates Gen 24:10,
                        naharaim as Mesopotamia, which says that the Masoretes were right, after
                        all.

                        Niels Peter Lemche

                        Niels Peter Lemche

                        -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                        Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                        [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com] På vegne af
                        driver40386
                        Sendt: 5. april 2007 02:07
                        Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                        Emne: [ANE-2] Re: Mesopotamia and Syria

                        I think most people equate the Greek word Mesopotamia with the Semitic
                        Aram-Naharayim, an equally hard to define designation.
                        I was never able to find Greek usage of the word before the time of
                        Alexander. Herodotus, who describes the land between the Tigris &
                        Euphrates, never once uses the term.
                        The Assyrian highlands were known as Nairi-lands, is this not
                        "river-country"? I mention it because if I am not mistaken "Naharayim"
                        also means "river-country", not "two rivers".
                        As Aram is typically taken to refer to Syria, I suspect Aram-Naharayim
                        simply means "river-country (of) Syria", not the "land between the two
                        rivers". If this is the case then Mesopotamia must also mean something
                        similar.
                        Also, I know of no texts that speak of the Assyrian higlands as
                        Naharayim, I would appreciate a correction on that point if anyone is
                        able. From what I understand Naharayim has always been used to
                        describe the highlands to the west of the Euphrates. To find
                        specifically what is meant by Naharayim, perhaps we should use the
                        Egyptian equivalent - Naharin.
                        There are many 18th dynasty inscriptions that tell of "Aleppo in
                        Naharin", or "Tunip of Naharin". We know that Nii (Niy) was on the
                        east bank of the Orontes and that the Egyptians place Nii in Naharin.
                        Perhaps Aram-Naharayim simply refers to the river-country (highlands),
                        in Syria, between the Orontes and the Euphrates. It was only later
                        around the 1st century AD that the terminology shifted to refer to the
                        land between the Tigris and Euphrates.

                        Regards, Jon Smyth
                        Toronto, CAN.

                        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com, "Garold
                        Mills" <gmills4248@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > All,
                        > I use the term Mesopotamia for the region around the rivers. However
                        it seems to be very flexible. I think the term Fertile Crescent is the
                        often used term for the are including Mesopotamia and Syria and
                        Levantine coast.
                        >

                        Yahoo! Groups Links





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • driver40386
                        I suspect the issue should be which two rivers would naharayim refer to? If we find no Hebrew (naharayim) nor Egyptian (naharin) referring to the highlands
                        Message 11 of 12 , Apr 5, 2007
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                          I suspect the issue should be which 'two rivers' would "naharayim"
                          refer to?
                          If we find no Hebrew (naharayim) nor Egyptian (naharin) referring to
                          the highlands east of the Euphrates, that is to say between the Tigris
                          and Euphrates, then surely both terms must refer to the land between
                          the Orontes & Euphrates. In both cases we have highland
                          river-countries between two major rivers.

                          (quote)
                          "The Egyptian inscriptions of this period frequently mention the name
                          of Naharain, or land of two rivers, as a large country in the
                          neighbourhood of the Upper Ruthen. It is generally understood to be
                          the country of Mesopotamia. The Arabs at the present day are
                          accustomed to call the fertile country to the west of Damascus, which
                          is watered by many rivers, by the name of Naharain."
                          Egypt under the Pharaohs, Brugsch, 1902, p.138.

                          So a hundred years ago the locals still used the term Naharain to
                          describe the "river-country" between the Orontes and Euphrates.
                          Redford, quoting Astour writes:"The Egyptians also employ the vague
                          geographical term Naharin, "river-land," for Mittani (M. Astour, JNES
                          31 [1972], 103.

                          Can we equate Naharin with Naharaim (Naharayim)?

                          Many thanks for your input.
                          Jon Smyth
                          Toronto, CAN


                          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Naharaim is Hebrew and dualis, i.e. the two rivers. So back to
                          original thesis, or a new one is needed: Naharaim was misvocalized by
                          the Masoretes, from nhr(i)m, naharim to naharaim. The Septuagint
                          translates Gen 24:10, naharaim as Mesopotamia, which says that the
                          Masoretes were right, after all.
                          >
                          > Niels Peter Lemche
                          >
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