Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [ANE-2] Mesopotamia and Syria

Expand Messages
  • Beatrice Hopkinson
    Trudy, I had checked the website and found they were using broad dates, since this list is well informed I thought I d check specifically for Syria. I d like
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 2, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Trudy,
      I had checked the website and found they were using 'broad' dates,
      since
      this list is well informed I thought I'd check specifically for Syria.

      I'd like the lists thoughts on another matter - does everybody
      accept that
      Mesopotamia is strictly limited to 'between the Tigris and Euphrates' and
      would that include cities on the west bank of the Euphrates in Syria -
      which is not 'between'?

      Bea


      >Bea,
      >3200 BCE would be Early Bronze Age, if you are using that system of terms.
      >Take a look at the Umm al-Marra website that you posted & you can see the
      >dating they use.
      >Trudy Kawami
      >
      >________________________________
      >
      >From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Beatrice Hopkinson
      >Sent: Fri 3/30/2007 7:12 PM
      >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Oldest Semitic inscriptions
      >
      >
      >
      >>Bea,
      >>You might find what you are looking for in P. Akkermans & G. Schwartz,
      >
      >Thank you Trudy for the reference - the material I am dealing with has
      >been dated 3200 BC at Qraya (near Terqa) in Syria, and I was wondering
      >what part of the Bronze Age this date might fall into, bearing in mind
      >that dates are always being updated as new evidence comes to light.
      >
      >Beatrice Hopkinson
      >
      >>The Archaeology of Syria (Cambridge U. Press, 2003) esp chapters 6 & 7.
      >>My understanding is that chronological terminology is moving away from
      >>"Early Bronze Age," etc. with dating brackets to something a little
      >>closer to "actual" time and considering the region in in terms of its
      >>own developement, not just influence from the "outside," i.e. the Uruk
      >>expansion por the campaigns of Naram Sin.
      >>Trudy Kawami
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
    • Gene Greenwood
      Trudy, For all my studies, Mesopotamia includes the land between the rivers and the the river valleys themselves. The term would include anybody that lived off
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 2, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Trudy,
        For all my studies, Mesopotamia includes the land between the rivers and the the river valleys themselves. The term would include anybody that lived off of the rivers and thus would include those on the 'outside' but close to the rivers. In ancient every border was fuzzy.
        Gene . . . .
        Gene Greenwood


        ----- Original Message ----
        From: Beatrice Hopkinson <beahopkinson@...>
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, April 2, 2007 9:47:51 AM
        Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Mesopotamia and Syria

        Trudy,
        I had checked the website and found they were using 'broad' dates,
        since
        this list is well informed I thought I'd check specifically for Syria.

        I'd like the lists thoughts on another matter - does everybody
        accept that
        Mesopotamia is strictly limited to 'between the Tigris and Euphrates' and
        would that include cities on the west bank of the Euphrates in Syria -
        which is not 'between'?

        Bea

        >Bea,
        >3200 BCE would be Early Bronze Age, if you are using that system of terms.
        >Take a look at the Umm al-Marra website that you posted & you can see the
        >dating they use.
        >Trudy Kawami
      • Trudy Kawami
        I am not aware that there are any strigently defined borders to Mespopotamia. The site of Mari is in modern Syria but was clearly part of the
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 2, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          I am not aware that there are any strigently defined "borders" to
          Mespopotamia. The site of Mari is in modern Syria but was clearly part
          of the "Mesopo-centric" world. Mesopotamia is just a Greek term for a
          general region that is still used for convenience sake, but I would not
          feel obliged to exclude a site on the basis of which bank of the
          Euphrates it lay on.
          Trudy Kawami

          ________________________________

          From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          Beatrice Hopkinson
          Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 12:48 PM
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Mesopotamia and Syria



          Trudy,
          I had checked the website and found they were using 'broad' dates,
          since
          this list is well informed I thought I'd check specifically for Syria.

          I'd like the lists thoughts on another matter - does everybody
          accept that
          Mesopotamia is strictly limited to 'between the Tigris and Euphrates'
          and
          would that include cities on the west bank of the Euphrates in Syria -
          which is not 'between'?

          Bea

          >Bea,
          >3200 BCE would be Early Bronze Age, if you are using that system of
          terms.
          >Take a look at the Umm al-Marra website that you posted & you can see
          the
          >dating they use.
          >Trudy Kawami
          >
          >________________________________
          >
          >From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> on behalf
          of Beatrice Hopkinson
          >Sent: Fri 3/30/2007 7:12 PM
          >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
          >Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Oldest Semitic inscriptions
          >
          >
          >
          >>Bea,
          >>You might find what you are looking for in P. Akkermans & G. Schwartz,
          >
          >Thank you Trudy for the reference - the material I am dealing with has
          >been dated 3200 BC at Qraya (near Terqa) in Syria, and I was wondering
          >what part of the Bronze Age this date might fall into, bearing in mind
          >that dates are always being updated as new evidence comes to light.
          >
          >Beatrice Hopkinson
          >
          >>The Archaeology of Syria (Cambridge U. Press, 2003) esp chapters 6 &
          7.
          >>My understanding is that chronological terminology is moving away from
          >>"Early Bronze Age," etc. with dating brackets to something a little
          >>closer to "actual" time and considering the region in in terms of its
          >>own developement, not just influence from the "outside," i.e. the Uruk
          >>expansion por the campaigns of Naram Sin.
          >>Trudy Kawami
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Beatrice Hopkinson
          ... That is what I thought, but I wondered if Northern Syria was defined somewhat differently? ... Frankly, as I am dealing with Beveled Rim Bowls I was
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 2, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            >I am not aware that there are any strigently defined "borders" to
            >Mespopotamia. The site of Mari is in modern Syria but was clearly part
            >of the "Mesopo-centric" world.

            That is what I thought, but I wondered if Northern Syria was defined
            somewhat differently?

            >Mesopotamia is just a Greek term for a
            >general region that is still used for convenience sake, but I would not
            >feel obliged to exclude a site on the basis of which bank of the
            >Euphrates it lay on.

            Frankly, as I am dealing with Beveled Rim Bowls I was inclined to
            include everywhere they occur as 'Mesopotamia' . But see the following:

            Mesopotamia :
            an ancient region of southwestern Asia in present-day Iraq, lying between
            the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. Its alluvial plains were the site of the
            civilizations of Akkad, Sumer, Babylonia, and Assyria.

            DERIVATIVES
            Mesopotamian adjective & noun
            ORIGIN from Greek mesos "middle" + potamos "river."

            As always I look to the list for corrections :)

            Beatrice Hopkinson
          • Garold Mills
            All, I use the term Mesopotamia for the region around the rivers. However it seems to be very flexible. I think the term Fertile Crescent is the often used
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 3, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              All,
              I use the term Mesopotamia for the region around the rivers. However it seems to be very flexible. I think the term Fertile Crescent is the often used term for the are including Mesopotamia and Syria and Levantine coast.

              Garold Mills
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Gene Greenwood<mailto:gwoodgeno@...>
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 1:23 PM
              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Mesopotamia and Syria


              Trudy,
              For all my studies, Mesopotamia includes the land between the rivers and the the river valleys themselves. The term would include anybody that lived off of the rivers and thus would include those on the 'outside' but close to the rivers. In ancient every border was fuzzy.
              Gene . . . .
              Gene Greenwood

              ----- Original Message ----
              From: Beatrice Hopkinson <beahopkinson@...<mailto:beahopkinson%40earthlink.net>>
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, April 2, 2007 9:47:51 AM
              Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Mesopotamia and Syria

              Trudy,
              I had checked the website and found they were using 'broad' dates,
              since
              this list is well informed I thought I'd check specifically for Syria.

              I'd like the lists thoughts on another matter - does everybody
              accept that
              Mesopotamia is strictly limited to 'between the Tigris and Euphrates' and
              would that include cities on the west bank of the Euphrates in Syria -
              which is not 'between'?

              Bea

              >Bea,
              >3200 BCE would be Early Bronze Age, if you are using that system of terms.
              >Take a look at the Umm al-Marra website that you posted & you can see the
              >dating they use.
              >Trudy Kawami




              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Trudy Kawami
              Bea, Bevel-rim bowls also occur in SW Iran which no one calls Mesopotamia. ... what is now Syria & even the Iranian plateau a little. There is no question that
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 3, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Bea,
                Bevel-rim bowls also occur in SW Iran which no one calls Mesopotamia.
                :-) They seems to be part of the Uruk "system" even when it spread into
                what is now Syria & even the Iranian plateau a little. There is no
                question that they (& the function they served) originated in
                Mesopotamia, but for a brief period they spread much further with the
                political/cultural/military/religious/whatever that we call the Uruk
                expansion.
                Trudy Kawami

                ________________________________

                From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                Beatrice Hopkinson
                Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 7:09 PM
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Mesopotamia and Syria



                >I am not aware that there are any strigently defined "borders" to
                >Mespopotamia. The site of Mari is in modern Syria but was clearly part
                >of the "Mesopo-centric" world.

                That is what I thought, but I wondered if Northern Syria was defined
                somewhat differently?

                >Mesopotamia is just a Greek term for a
                >general region that is still used for convenience sake, but I would not
                >feel obliged to exclude a site on the basis of which bank of the
                >Euphrates it lay on.

                Frankly, as I am dealing with Beveled Rim Bowls I was inclined to
                include everywhere they occur as 'Mesopotamia' . But see the following:

                Mesopotamia :
                an ancient region of southwestern Asia in present-day Iraq, lying
                between
                the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. Its alluvial plains were the site of
                the
                civilizations of Akkad, Sumer, Babylonia, and Assyria.

                DERIVATIVES
                Mesopotamian adjective & noun
                ORIGIN from Greek mesos "middle" + potamos "river."

                As always I look to the list for corrections :)

                Beatrice Hopkinson





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Beatrice Hopkinson
                Trudy, Well I have been referring to them now as occurring in Mesopotamia and its hinterland - that should cover it don t you think. Bea
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 3, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Trudy,

                  Well I have been referring to them now as occurring in Mesopotamia
                  and
                  its hinterland - that should cover it don't you think.

                  Bea

                  >Bea,
                  >Bevel-rim bowls also occur in SW Iran which no one calls Mesopotamia.
                  >:-) They seems to be part of the Uruk "system" even when it spread into
                  >what is now Syria & even the Iranian plateau a little. There is no
                  >question that they (& the function they served) originated in
                  >Mesopotamia, but for a brief period they spread much further with the
                  >political/cultural/military/religious/whatever that we call the Uruk
                  >expansion.
                  >Trudy Kawami
                  >
                  >________________________________
                  >
                  >From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                  >Beatrice Hopkinson
                  >Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 7:09 PM
                  >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Mesopotamia and Syria
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >>I am not aware that there are any strigently defined "borders" to
                  >>Mespopotamia. The site of Mari is in modern Syria but was clearly part
                  >>of the "Mesopo-centric" world.
                  >
                  >That is what I thought, but I wondered if Northern Syria was defined
                  >somewhat differently?
                  >
                  >>Mesopotamia is just a Greek term for a
                  >>general region that is still used for convenience sake, but I would not
                  >>feel obliged to exclude a site on the basis of which bank of the
                  >>Euphrates it lay on.
                  >
                  >Frankly, as I am dealing with Beveled Rim Bowls I was inclined to
                  >include everywhere they occur as 'Mesopotamia' . But see the following:
                  >
                  >Mesopotamia :
                  >an ancient region of southwestern Asia in present-day Iraq, lying
                  >between
                  >the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. Its alluvial plains were the site of
                  >the
                  >civilizations of Akkad, Sumer, Babylonia, and Assyria.
                  >
                  >DERIVATIVES
                  >Mesopotamian adjective & noun
                  >ORIGIN from Greek mesos "middle" + potamos "river."
                  >
                  >As always I look to the list for corrections :)
                  >
                  >Beatrice Hopkinson
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                • driver40386
                  I think most people equate the Greek word Mesopotamia with the Semitic Aram-Naharayim, an equally hard to define designation. I was never able to find Greek
                  Message 8 of 12 , Apr 4, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    I think most people equate the Greek word Mesopotamia with the Semitic
                    Aram-Naharayim, an equally hard to define designation.
                    I was never able to find Greek usage of the word before the time of
                    Alexander. Herodotus, who describes the land between the Tigris &
                    Euphrates, never once uses the term.
                    The Assyrian highlands were known as Nairi-lands, is this not
                    "river-country"? I mention it because if I am not mistaken "Naharayim"
                    also means "river-country", not "two rivers".
                    As Aram is typically taken to refer to Syria, I suspect Aram-Naharayim
                    simply means "river-country (of) Syria", not the "land between the two
                    rivers". If this is the case then Mesopotamia must also mean something
                    similar.
                    Also, I know of no texts that speak of the Assyrian higlands as
                    Naharayim, I would appreciate a correction on that point if anyone is
                    able. From what I understand Naharayim has always been used to
                    describe the highlands to the west of the Euphrates. To find
                    specifically what is meant by Naharayim, perhaps we should use the
                    Egyptian equivalent - Naharin.
                    There are many 18th dynasty inscriptions that tell of "Aleppo in
                    Naharin", or "Tunip of Naharin". We know that Nii (Niy) was on the
                    east bank of the Orontes and that the Egyptians place Nii in Naharin.
                    Perhaps Aram-Naharayim simply refers to the river-country (highlands),
                    in Syria, between the Orontes and the Euphrates. It was only later
                    around the 1st century AD that the terminology shifted to refer to the
                    land between the Tigris and Euphrates.

                    Regards, Jon Smyth
                    Toronto, CAN.

                    --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Garold Mills" <gmills4248@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > All,
                    > I use the term Mesopotamia for the region around the rivers. However
                    it seems to be very flexible. I think the term Fertile Crescent is the
                    often used term for the are including Mesopotamia and Syria and
                    Levantine coast.
                    >
                  • Niels Peter Lemche
                    Naharaim is Hebrew and dualis, i.e. the two rivers. So back to original thesis, or a new one is needed: Naharaim was misvocalized by the Masoretes, from
                    Message 9 of 12 , Apr 4, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Naharaim is Hebrew and dualis, i.e. the two rivers. So back to original thesis, or a new one is needed: Naharaim was misvocalized by the Masoretes, from nhr(i)m, naharim to naharaim. The Septuagint translates Gen 24:10, naharaim as Mesopotamia, which says that the Masoretes were right, after all.

                      Niels Peter Lemche



                      Niels Peter Lemche

                      -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                      Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af driver40386
                      Sendt: 5. april 2007 02:07
                      Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      Emne: [ANE-2] Re: Mesopotamia and Syria

                      I think most people equate the Greek word Mesopotamia with the Semitic
                      Aram-Naharayim, an equally hard to define designation.
                      I was never able to find Greek usage of the word before the time of
                      Alexander. Herodotus, who describes the land between the Tigris &
                      Euphrates, never once uses the term.
                      The Assyrian highlands were known as Nairi-lands, is this not
                      "river-country"? I mention it because if I am not mistaken "Naharayim"
                      also means "river-country", not "two rivers".
                      As Aram is typically taken to refer to Syria, I suspect Aram-Naharayim
                      simply means "river-country (of) Syria", not the "land between the two
                      rivers". If this is the case then Mesopotamia must also mean something
                      similar.
                      Also, I know of no texts that speak of the Assyrian higlands as
                      Naharayim, I would appreciate a correction on that point if anyone is
                      able. From what I understand Naharayim has always been used to
                      describe the highlands to the west of the Euphrates. To find
                      specifically what is meant by Naharayim, perhaps we should use the
                      Egyptian equivalent - Naharin.
                      There are many 18th dynasty inscriptions that tell of "Aleppo in
                      Naharin", or "Tunip of Naharin". We know that Nii (Niy) was on the
                      east bank of the Orontes and that the Egyptians place Nii in Naharin.
                      Perhaps Aram-Naharayim simply refers to the river-country (highlands),
                      in Syria, between the Orontes and the Euphrates. It was only later
                      around the 1st century AD that the terminology shifted to refer to the
                      land between the Tigris and Euphrates.

                      Regards, Jon Smyth
                      Toronto, CAN.

                      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Garold Mills" <gmills4248@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > All,
                      > I use the term Mesopotamia for the region around the rivers. However
                      it seems to be very flexible. I think the term Fertile Crescent is the
                      often used term for the are including Mesopotamia and Syria and
                      Levantine coast.
                      >




                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                    • victor
                      I I haven t been following the recent discussions on ANE, nor am I an historical geographer, but on this issue you might be interested in J. J. Finkelstein,
                      Message 10 of 12 , Apr 4, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I I haven't been following the recent discussions on ANE, nor am I an
                        historical geographer, but on this issue you might be interested in J. J.
                        Finkelstein, "Mesopotamia", JNES 21 (1962), 73-92

                        Victor Hurowitz

                        BGU Beer Sheva



                        _____

                        From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                        driver40386
                        Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 2:07 AM
                        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Mesopotamia and Syria



                        I think most people equate the Greek word Mesopotamia with the Semitic
                        Aram-Naharayim, an equally hard to define designation.
                        I was never able to find Greek usage of the word before the time of
                        Alexander. Herodotus, who describes the land between the Tigris &
                        Euphrates, never once uses the term.
                        The Assyrian highlands were known as Nairi-lands, is this not
                        "river-country"? I mention it because if I am not mistaken "Naharayim"
                        also means "river-country", not "two rivers".
                        As Aram is typically taken to refer to Syria, I suspect Aram-Naharayim
                        simply means "river-country (of) Syria", not the "land between the two
                        rivers". If this is the case then Mesopotamia must also mean something
                        similar.
                        Also, I know of no texts that speak of the Assyrian higlands as
                        Naharayim, I would appreciate a correction on that point if anyone is
                        able. From what I understand Naharayim has always been used to
                        describe the highlands to the west of the Euphrates. To find
                        specifically what is meant by Naharayim, perhaps we should use the
                        Egyptian equivalent - Naharin.
                        There are many 18th dynasty inscriptions that tell of "Aleppo in
                        Naharin", or "Tunip of Naharin". We know that Nii (Niy) was on the
                        east bank of the Orontes and that the Egyptians place Nii in Naharin.
                        Perhaps Aram-Naharayim simply refers to the river-country (highlands),
                        in Syria, between the Orontes and the Euphrates. It was only later
                        around the 1st century AD that the terminology shifted to refer to the
                        land between the Tigris and Euphrates.

                        Regards, Jon Smyth
                        Toronto, CAN.

                        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com, "Garold
                        Mills" <gmills4248@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > All,
                        > I use the term Mesopotamia for the region around the rivers. However
                        it seems to be very flexible. I think the term Fertile Crescent is the
                        often used term for the are including Mesopotamia and Syria and
                        Levantine coast.
                        >





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • victor
                        I I haven t been following the recent discussions on ANE, nor am I an historical geographer, but on this issue you might be interested in J. J. Finkelstein,
                        Message 11 of 12 , Apr 5, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I I haven't been following the recent discussions on ANE, nor am I an
                          historical geographer, but on this issue you might be interested in J. J.
                          Finkelstein, "Mesopotamia", JNES 21 (1962), 73-92

                          Victor Hurowitz

                          BGU Beer Sheva



                          _____

                          From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                          Niels Peter Lemche
                          Sent: Thursday, April 05, 2007 7:21 AM
                          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: SV: [ANE-2] Re: Mesopotamia and Syria



                          Naharaim is Hebrew and dualis, i.e. the two rivers. So back to original
                          thesis, or a new one is needed: Naharaim was misvocalized by the Masoretes,
                          from nhr(i)m, naharim to naharaim. The Septuagint translates Gen 24:10,
                          naharaim as Mesopotamia, which says that the Masoretes were right, after
                          all.

                          Niels Peter Lemche

                          Niels Peter Lemche

                          -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                          Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                          [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com] På vegne af
                          driver40386
                          Sendt: 5. april 2007 02:07
                          Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                          Emne: [ANE-2] Re: Mesopotamia and Syria

                          I think most people equate the Greek word Mesopotamia with the Semitic
                          Aram-Naharayim, an equally hard to define designation.
                          I was never able to find Greek usage of the word before the time of
                          Alexander. Herodotus, who describes the land between the Tigris &
                          Euphrates, never once uses the term.
                          The Assyrian highlands were known as Nairi-lands, is this not
                          "river-country"? I mention it because if I am not mistaken "Naharayim"
                          also means "river-country", not "two rivers".
                          As Aram is typically taken to refer to Syria, I suspect Aram-Naharayim
                          simply means "river-country (of) Syria", not the "land between the two
                          rivers". If this is the case then Mesopotamia must also mean something
                          similar.
                          Also, I know of no texts that speak of the Assyrian higlands as
                          Naharayim, I would appreciate a correction on that point if anyone is
                          able. From what I understand Naharayim has always been used to
                          describe the highlands to the west of the Euphrates. To find
                          specifically what is meant by Naharayim, perhaps we should use the
                          Egyptian equivalent - Naharin.
                          There are many 18th dynasty inscriptions that tell of "Aleppo in
                          Naharin", or "Tunip of Naharin". We know that Nii (Niy) was on the
                          east bank of the Orontes and that the Egyptians place Nii in Naharin.
                          Perhaps Aram-Naharayim simply refers to the river-country (highlands),
                          in Syria, between the Orontes and the Euphrates. It was only later
                          around the 1st century AD that the terminology shifted to refer to the
                          land between the Tigris and Euphrates.

                          Regards, Jon Smyth
                          Toronto, CAN.

                          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com, "Garold
                          Mills" <gmills4248@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > All,
                          > I use the term Mesopotamia for the region around the rivers. However
                          it seems to be very flexible. I think the term Fertile Crescent is the
                          often used term for the are including Mesopotamia and Syria and
                          Levantine coast.
                          >

                          Yahoo! Groups Links





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • driver40386
                          I suspect the issue should be which two rivers would naharayim refer to? If we find no Hebrew (naharayim) nor Egyptian (naharin) referring to the highlands
                          Message 12 of 12 , Apr 5, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I suspect the issue should be which 'two rivers' would "naharayim"
                            refer to?
                            If we find no Hebrew (naharayim) nor Egyptian (naharin) referring to
                            the highlands east of the Euphrates, that is to say between the Tigris
                            and Euphrates, then surely both terms must refer to the land between
                            the Orontes & Euphrates. In both cases we have highland
                            river-countries between two major rivers.

                            (quote)
                            "The Egyptian inscriptions of this period frequently mention the name
                            of Naharain, or land of two rivers, as a large country in the
                            neighbourhood of the Upper Ruthen. It is generally understood to be
                            the country of Mesopotamia. The Arabs at the present day are
                            accustomed to call the fertile country to the west of Damascus, which
                            is watered by many rivers, by the name of Naharain."
                            Egypt under the Pharaohs, Brugsch, 1902, p.138.

                            So a hundred years ago the locals still used the term Naharain to
                            describe the "river-country" between the Orontes and Euphrates.
                            Redford, quoting Astour writes:"The Egyptians also employ the vague
                            geographical term Naharin, "river-land," for Mittani (M. Astour, JNES
                            31 [1972], 103.

                            Can we equate Naharin with Naharaim (Naharayim)?

                            Many thanks for your input.
                            Jon Smyth
                            Toronto, CAN


                            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Niels Peter Lemche" <npl@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Naharaim is Hebrew and dualis, i.e. the two rivers. So back to
                            original thesis, or a new one is needed: Naharaim was misvocalized by
                            the Masoretes, from nhr(i)m, naharim to naharaim. The Septuagint
                            translates Gen 24:10, naharaim as Mesopotamia, which says that the
                            Masoretes were right, after all.
                            >
                            > Niels Peter Lemche
                            >
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.