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SV: [ANE-2] Homer's dates wrong?

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  • Niels Peter Lemche
    There has been quite a traffic on Aegeannet concerning this mail. The worst verdict is that it is crap -- their word, not mine. They point at a number of
    Message 1 of 3 , Mar 2, 2006
      There has been quite a traffic on Aegeannet concerning this mail. The
      worst verdict is that it is 'crap' -- their word, not mine. They point
      at a number of misunderstandings and wrong datings, including the name
      of Gedidoniya and Uluburun, both of which places in Turkey and not of
      ships.

      It is true that at least the Gelidoniya wrack which I saw some twenty
      years ago at Bodrum Castle, including a cargo of copper ingots heading
      for Phoenicia or coming from Phoenicia. The date--according to authors
      on Aegeannet -- is not 1200 BCE but 1300 BCE.

      As to Homer there is probably only one reference to anything Mycenean
      here, the Boar Tooth helmet on the wall in the palace of the
      Phaiyacians. Such an item does not date the poems or the poet. It is a
      remnant from the past.

      Several scholars have discussed the historicity of Homer. The discussion
      looks very much like the one about the OT (banned subject here).

      It is on the other hand rather well-known that the poems as we have them
      are fairly late, that the catalogue of ships in the Iliad presupposes
      the hegemony of Athens, among other things.

      I will follow the discussion on Aegeannet in order to see if anything
      new and interesting appears.

      NPLemche
    • Miguel Valerio
      I am not an English native speaker but I actually understood very well that those were meant to be names of shipwrecks, after the actual spots. If you recheck
      Message 2 of 3 , Mar 2, 2006
        I am not an English native speaker but I actually
        understood very well that those were meant to be names
        of shipwrecks, after the actual spots. If you recheck
        the text you will reach the same conclusion. And it is
        Gelidoniya, not Gedidoniya.
        This isn't, ofcourse, a defense of any of the views
        presented in the article.

        Best regards,

        Miguel Valério


        --- Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...> escribió:


        ---------------------------------
        There has been quite a traffic on Aegeannet concerning
        this mail. The
        worst verdict is that it is 'crap' -- their word, not
        mine. They point
        at a number of misunderstandings and wrong datings,
        including the name
        of Gedidoniya and Uluburun, both of which places in
        Turkey and not of
        ships.

        It is true that at least the Gelidoniya wrack which I
        saw some twenty
        years ago at Bodrum Castle, including a cargo of
        copper ingots heading
        for Phoenicia or coming from Phoenicia. The
        date--according to authors
        on Aegeannet -- is not 1200 BCE but 1300 BCE.

        As to Homer there is probably only one reference to
        anything Mycenean
        here, the Boar Tooth helmet on the wall in the palace
        of the
        Phaiyacians. Such an item does not date the poems or
        the poet. It is a
        remnant from the past.

        Several scholars have discussed the historicity of
        Homer. The discussion
        looks very much like the one about the OT (banned
        subject here).

        It is on the other hand rather well-known that the
        poems as we have them
        are fairly late, that the catalogue of ships in the
        Iliad presupposes
        the hegemony of Athens, among other things.

        I will follow the discussion on Aegeannet in order to
        see if anything
        new and interesting appears.

        NPLemche
      • Lee Edgar Tyler
        ... It is worth noting that the earliest attestation of a fixed text for the Homeric epics is the Panathenaic festival of the 6th Century. But we have no
        Message 3 of 3 , Mar 2, 2006
          Niels Peter Lemche wrote:

          >There has been quite a traffic on Aegeannet concerning this mail. The
          >worst verdict is that it is 'crap' -- their word, not mine. They point
          >at a number of misunderstandings and wrong datings, including the name
          >of Gedidoniya and Uluburun, both of which places in Turkey and not of
          >ships.
          >
          >It is true that at least the Gelidoniya wrack which I saw some twenty
          >years ago at Bodrum Castle, including a cargo of copper ingots heading
          >for Phoenicia or coming from Phoenicia. The date--according to authors
          >on Aegeannet -- is not 1200 BCE but 1300 BCE.
          >
          >As to Homer there is probably only one reference to anything Mycenean
          >here, the Boar Tooth helmet on the wall in the palace of the
          >Phaiyacians. Such an item does not date the poems or the poet. It is a
          >remnant from the past.
          >
          >Several scholars have discussed the historicity of Homer. The discussion
          >looks very much like the one about the OT (banned subject here).
          >
          >It is on the other hand rather well-known that the poems as we have them
          >are fairly late, that the catalogue of ships in the Iliad presupposes
          >the hegemony of Athens, among other things.
          >
          >I will follow the discussion on Aegeannet in order to see if anything
          >new and interesting appears.
          >
          >NPLemche
          >
          >

          It is worth noting that the earliest attestation of a fixed text for the
          Homeric epics is the Panathenaic festival of the 6th Century. But we
          have no extant version of any of the ancient texts nor even of the later
          massive collection of Homeric texts from Alexandria. Just scattered
          "wild papyri" that attest to the fact that the ancient manuscript
          tradition of Homer was transmitted in multiform. The earliest extant
          text of the Iliad is Codex Venetus Marcianus 454, a minuscule from the
          early 10th Century. We really have no idea how closely this text reads
          to any of the Alexandrian or Panathenaic ones; but we do know that its
          variation from the wild papyri is of a nature that is inexplicable by
          recourse to scribal error or interpolation. As West and Foley observe,
          we have no reason to assume that the variations were at all anomalous in
          their day. The "wild" papyri seem wild only to those who think that the
          extant Byzantine redaction was the standard. It is entirely possible
          that *our* text is the one that's "wild," and in my opinion it's
          probable that the whole notion of such a fixed text is itself an
          anachronism.

          Speaking of anachronism: It was an "old saw" of the Hellenistic age
          that Moses had schooled Homer in the art of epic composition. I guess
          that makes as much sense as Achilles' armor.

          Ed Tyler
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