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Re: Fw: [ANE-2] Re: Urusalim

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  • Patrick Ryan
    ... From: David Lorton To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 11:04 PM
    Message 1 of 6 , Mar 1 4:22 AM
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: David Lorton<mailto:davidlorton@...>
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 11:04 PM
      Subject: Re: Fw: [ANE-2] Re: Urusalim

      <snip>

      ***
      The Ächtungstexte 3ws3mm, Jerusalem, might also have represented to the contemporaneous Egyptian something like /raw(a)$aram(a)m/.


      Patrick C. Ryan
      ***


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Joachim Friedrich Quack
      ... Actually, among specialists it is long known (since Montet and Albright), that in the Middle Kingdom writings of the execration texts the Egyptian
      Message 2 of 6 , Mar 1 6:27 AM
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        David Lorton schrieb:

        >For the reasons I already stated, I don't think there's any point in
        >trying to comment on the vocalization of the Egyptian writings of
        >foreign names.
        >
        >But now I'm getting curious about this alleged reference to Jerusalem.
        >I wonder how a consonantal sign that supposedly indicates /r/ can be
        >doing double duty to write the long vowel â. And if 3w$3mm is really
        >Jerusalem, how do we account for the two m's? Or is this an instance of
        >the famous m > l consonantal shift? And, I wonder, is there an
        >archaeological-attested Jerusalem in the 19th century B.C.E.?
        >
        >My question about the "consonantal shift" was tongue-in-cheek, of
        >course. Looking at the transliteration of the Egyptian writing, what I
        >really wonder is whether this is an example of what I suggested earlier:
        >a good-natured attempt at an equation of an Egyptian writing with a
        >known toponym, but an attempt that went awry.
        >
        >David Lorton
        >
        >
        >
        Actually, among specialists it is long known (since Montet and
        Albright), that in the Middle Kingdom writings of the execration texts
        the Egyptian consonant normaly transcribed as 3 (the vulture sign) is
        only used for rendering semitic r and l, never to indicate a vowel.
        Concerning the final m, this is relatively frequent in Egyptian
        renderings of asiatic toponyms of the Middle Kingdom (e.g. skmm for
        Sichem) and seems to reflect a preserved mimation (case vowel plus final
        m for a noun in the status rectus).

        Joachim Quack
      • Patrick Ryan
        ... From: Joachim Friedrich Quack To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com Sent:
        Message 3 of 6 , Mar 1 7:19 AM
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Joachim Friedrich Quack<mailto:joachim_friedrich.quack@...-heidelberg.de>
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 8:27 AM
          Subject: Re: Fw: [ANE-2] Re: Urusalim


          <snip>

          Actually, among specialists it is long known (since Montet and
          Albright), that in the Middle Kingdom writings of the execration texts
          the Egyptian consonant normaly transcribed as 3 (the vulture sign) is
          only used for rendering semitic r and l, never to indicate a vowel.
          Concerning the final m, this is relatively frequent in Egyptian
          renderings of asiatic toponyms of the Middle Kingdom (e.g. skmm for
          Sichem) and seems to reflect a preserved mimation (case vowel plus final
          m for a noun in the status rectus).

          ***
          So, is it being asserted here that Execration Text <mm> phonologically represents a single /m/ or final root <m> plus <m>?
          Patrick C. Ryan
          ***







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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Joachim Friedrich Quack
          ... Obviously the second of your alternatives. Joachim Quack
          Message 4 of 6 , Mar 1 7:30 AM
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            Patrick Ryan schrieb:

            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Joachim Friedrich Quack<mailto:joachim_friedrich.quack@...-heidelberg.de>
            > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 8:27 AM
            > Subject: Re: Fw: [ANE-2] Re: Urusalim
            >
            >
            > <snip>
            >
            > Actually, among specialists it is long known (since Montet and
            > Albright), that in the Middle Kingdom writings of the execration texts
            > the Egyptian consonant normaly transcribed as 3 (the vulture sign) is
            > only used for rendering semitic r and l, never to indicate a vowel.
            > Concerning the final m, this is relatively frequent in Egyptian
            > renderings of asiatic toponyms of the Middle Kingdom (e.g. skmm for
            > Sichem) and seems to reflect a preserved mimation (case vowel plus final
            > m for a noun in the status rectus).
            >
            > ***
            > So, is it being asserted here that Execration Text <mm> phonologically represents a single /m/ or final root <m> plus <m>?
            > Patrick C. Ryan
            > ***
            >
            >
            Obviously the second of your alternatives.

            Joachim Quack
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