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Urusalim vs. Jerusalem

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  • walter mattfeld
    Can anyone explain how Urusalim came to obtain a Ye before -urusalim (Yerusalem/Jerusalem)? Does Ye- have some particular meaning ? Regards, Walter
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 1 5:59 AM
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      Can anyone explain how Urusalim came to obtain a "Ye" before "-urusalim"
      (Yerusalem/Jerusalem)? Does "Ye-" have some particular meaning ?

      Regards, Walter
      Walter Reinhold Warttig Mattfeld y de la Torre, M.A. Ed.
      mattfeld12@...

      www.bibleorigins.net
    • Ariel L. Szczupak
      ... [Who said no floods in the ANE? Some 90 messages since I last checked, yesterday morning] Some things I recall from several years ago when I checked in
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 1 10:30 AM
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        At 15:59 01/03/2006, walter mattfeld wrote:
        >Can anyone explain how Urusalim came to obtain a "Ye" before "-urusalim"
        >(Yerusalem/Jerusalem)? Does "Ye-" have some particular meaning ?

        [Who said no floods in the ANE? Some 90 messages since I last
        checked, yesterday morning]

        Some things I recall from several years ago when I checked in depth
        along with other personal interests (Ariel, etc).

        Words in Akkadian that start with /y/ are relatively few, so it could
        be the initial /y/ was dropped when transliterated into Akkadian.

        On the other hand, there's an Akkadian /yeru/, can't recall the exact
        "spelling", which means some kind of body of water.

        Personally I favored a "Levant Semitic" direction, because Shalem is
        a well attested deity in the Ugarit myths and because of names like
        /yeruel/ (GN) and /yeruba'al/ (PN, spelling without a W).

        This fits a pattern of a merger of pantheons, which, for once, is
        actually attested outside the OT - e.g. YHWH/Asherah inscriptions.
        And I'm not sure that the name changes in the biblical story reflect
        only different traditions or a phonetic evolution. There are a lot
        examples (I mentioned the El/YHWH "pact" in the patriarchs story in
        my last ANE-1 message, Jerusalem gets called "kirya" only after the
        ark is moved there, etc). I'm sure the real experts will have the
        counter arguments ready ...

        But the problem with an LS approach is that on one hand a "YRW" can
        potentially arise from a lot of roots, and on the other hand neither
        is clearly attested as such a prefix for names in non-biblical texts
        (if I recall correctly I couldn't find an Ugaritic GN that starts
        with /yeru/). E.g. /yore/ is the word for the first rain in autumn
        also in Ugaritic, another water motif, but it's not clear (or wasn't
        several years ago) what exactly it's derived from and if it could
        give rise to /yeru/ too.


        Ariel.

        [100% bona fide dilettante ... delecto ergo sum!]

        ---
        Ariel L. Szczupak
        AMIS-JLM (Ricercar Ltd.)
        POB 4707, Jerusalem, Israel 91401
        Phone: +972-2-5619660 Fax: +972-2-5634203
        ane.als@...
      • Ariel L. Szczupak
        ... I was so focused on trying to recall that I shorthanded somewhat too much :( And I gave no refs because my notes from the time are in storage and I won t
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 1 9:02 PM
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          At 20:30 01/03/2006, Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:
          >At 15:59 01/03/2006, walter mattfeld wrote:
          >>Can anyone explain how Urusalim came to obtain a "Ye" before "-urusalim"
          >>(Yerusalem/Jerusalem)? Does "Ye-" have some particular meaning ?
          >
          >[Who said no floods in the ANE? Some 90 messages since I last
          >checked, yesterday morning]

          I was so focused on trying to recall that I shorthanded somewhat too
          much :( And I gave no refs because my notes from the time are in
          storage and I won't have time to pull out all the books before the
          weekend or next week.

          >Some things I recall from several years ago when I checked in depth
          >along with other personal interests (Ariel, etc).

          Basically I checked everything remotely possible, including wild
          possibilities like e.g. the YR$ root. But anything that couldn't be
          supported by attestations was ruled out.

          We do have Akkadian /urusalim/ attested, which gave rise to several
          possibilities ...

          >Words in Akkadian that start with /y/ are relatively few, so it
          >could be the initial /y/ was dropped when transliterated into Akkadian.

          This cryptic sentence summed up too much :(

          The Akkadian /urusalim/ can be a transliteration, what the scribe
          felt expressed best the phonetic value of the name of the place.

          If so it could be that the Levant-Semitic name at the Amarna letters
          time was actually /urusalim/, without a /y/, but we have no
          Levant-Semitic attestations of that.

          It could be that the scribe dropped the /y/ because of some reason
          connected, or not, to there being relatively few y-words in Akkadian
          (I seem to recall /y/ being related to negation in Akkadian but I'm
          not certain), and that sends us to a Levant-Semitic interpretation
          (which is what I favored).

          And Akkadian /urusalim/ could be a semantic representation of the
          meaning of Levant-Semitic /yerushalem/, but there is no obvious
          correspondence between the semantic meanings, specifically between
          the Akkadian /uru/ and the Levant-Semitic /yeru/ because the semantic
          meaning of Levant-Semitic /yeru/ is not a given.

          So a dropping of the /y/ seemed the most probable possibility, but
          neither it nor the other possibilities could be supported by actual
          attestations.

          And checking the Akkadian angle gave rise to another possibility ...

          >On the other hand, there's an Akkadian /yeru/, can't recall the
          >exact "spelling", which means some kind of body of water.

          I.e. that Akkadian /yeru/ was imported into Levant-Semitic, or that
          it hints at some proto-Semitic word, giving rise to /yerushalem/ in
          Levant-Semitic and then to /urusalim/ in Akkadian by phonetic
          transliteration with the /y/ dropped.

          Again - nothing to attest that such a thing actually happened.

          >Personally I favored a "Levant Semitic" direction,

          ... i.e. that the entire word should be interpreted as a Levant Semitic one ...

          >because Shalem is a well attested deity in the Ugarit myths and
          >because of names like /yeruel/ (GN) and /yeruba'al/ (PN, spelling without a W).

          I.e. /yeru/-DN constructs.


          >This fits a pattern of a merger of pantheons, which, for once, is
          >actually attested outside the OT - e.g. YHWH/Asherah inscriptions.
          >And I'm not sure that the name changes in the biblical story reflect
          >only different traditions or a phonetic evolution. There are a lot
          >examples (I mentioned the El/YHWH "pact" in the patriarchs story in
          >my last ANE-1 message, Jerusalem gets called "kirya" only after the
          >ark is moved there, etc). I'm sure the real experts will have the
          >counter arguments ready ...
          >
          >But the problem with an LS approach is that on one hand a "YRW" can
          >potentially arise from a lot of roots, and on the other hand neither

          [should have been "none"]

          >is clearly attested as such a prefix for names in non-biblical texts
          >(if I recall correctly I couldn't find an Ugaritic GN that starts
          >with /yeru/). E.g. /yore/ is the word for the first rain in autumn
          >also in Ugaritic, another water motif, but it's not clear (or wasn't
          >several years ago) what exactly it's derived from and if it could
          >give rise to /yeru/ too.

          [I may have messed up my recall on /yore/ in Ugaritic - between
          someone (Rins?) trying to use biblical Hebrew to interpret an
          Ugaritic passage and an actually established meaning in Ugaritic.]

          So there were safer possibilities and wilder ones, but none could be
          supported by attestations :(

          [Let me know if have to pull out the books]


          Ariel.

          [100% bona fide dilettante ... delecto ergo sum!]

          ---
          Ariel L. Szczupak
          AMIS-JLM (Ricercar Ltd.)
          POB 4707, Jerusalem, Israel 91401
          Phone: +972-2-5619660 Fax: +972-2-5634203
          ane.als@...
        • Robert Whiting
          ... Ariel, I won t try to respond to this point by point because I don t have any reference material (dictionaries and grammars) with me right now,
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 2 2:03 AM
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            On Thu, 2 Mar 2006, Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:

            > At 20:30 01/03/2006, Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:
            > >At 15:59 01/03/2006, walter mattfeld wrote:
            > >>Can anyone explain how Urusalim came to obtain a "Ye" before "-urusalim"
            > >>(Yerusalem/Jerusalem)? Does "Ye-" have some particular meaning ?
            > >
            > >[Who said no floods in the ANE? Some 90 messages since I last
            > >checked, yesterday morning]
            <huge snip>

            Ariel, I won't try to respond to this point by point because I don't
            have any reference material (dictionaries and grammars) with me right
            now, but I'd like to make a couple of observations from memory that
            I can check on tomorrow. If anyone has better references (or a better
            memory) they can correct or revise the observations.

            On the contrast between Amarna Urusalim and later Yeru$alim, in Hebrew
            all common Semitic inital W- roots become initial Y- (WLD > YLD, W$B >
            Y$B, etc.). Thus the contrast of u- and ye- suggests -- at least to
            me -- that the search for a cognate to yeru- should be made among
            common Semitic roots with inital W-.

            Initial y- (usually rendered j- in deference to German lexical and
            grammatical scholarship) in Akkadian is rare, and outside of first
            person pronoun forms (ja:$i, etc.) occurs mostly in loan words of
            West Semitic origin.

            In fact, the IA sign is one of the very few Akkadian syllabic signs that
            was added to the syllabary after the cuneiform signary was closed early in
            the third millennium. It consists of a simple ligature of I and A and was
            added in the first century of the second millennium, primarily to record
            West Semitic (Amorite) words and names with which Akkadian was coming into
            increasing contact at the beginning of the second millennium. (An earlier
            rendering using I3+A is found in third millennium souces, but died out.)
            The IA sign is transcribed as ia, ie, ii, iu (i.e., it is indifferent to
            the vowel), but the i represents the semi-vowel y, not a vowel i.

            However, in West Semitic areas, particularly at Mari and later in the
            Amarna texts, the PI sign (also used for wa, we, wi, wu) was used to
            represent ya, ye, yi, yu, particularly in items of West Semitic origin.

            In the Amarna letters, one finds this usage often. The IA sign (which I
            will render as ja[/e/i/u] for the purposes of this discussion is used for
            Akkadian forms (ja-a-$i EA 287:12) and for the first person genitive
            pronominal suffix on Akkadian words (-ja, passim). The PI sign (which I
            will render with ya[/e/i/u]) is used in West Semitic items (la-ab-a-ya EA
            287:30) and also to "Canaanize" Akkadina verb forms with an initial
            ya/e/i/u prefix. This usage does not occur in EA 287 but in EA 286 (also
            from Abdi-heba) we find yi/à-qa-bi (EA 286:22).

            The inescapable conclusion is that if the scribe of EA 287 had wanted
            to express Yerusalim he would have written PI-ru-sa-lim and that
            therefore there is simply no /y/ explicit or implied in the writing
            ú-ru-sa-lim.

            The corollary to this is that the name in the mid-second millennium was
            Urusalim and this is confirmed by the NA writing Ursalimmu. Yeru$alim is
            simply later.


            Bob Whiting
            whiting@...
          • Albert Naccache
            ... And of probably restricted extend, as shown by the persistence of Ur$alim. Albert Naccache Beirut, Lebanon
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 2 6:01 AM
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              At 3/2/2006 12:03 PM, Bob Whiting wrote:

              >The corollary to this is that the name in the mid-second millennium was
              >Urusalim and this is confirmed by the NA writing Ursalimmu.  Yeru$alim is
              >simply later.

              And of probably restricted extend, as shown by the persistence of Ur$alim.

              Albert Naccache
              Beirut, Lebanon
            • Ariel L. Szczupak
              At 12:03 02/03/2006, Robert Whiting wrote: [...] ... Same here (besides not having worked on specific linguistic/philological problems for over a year). I ll
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 2 12:59 PM
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                At 12:03 02/03/2006, Robert Whiting wrote:
                [...]

                >Ariel, I won't try to respond to this point by point because I don't
                >have any reference material (dictionaries and grammars) with me right
                >now, ...

                Same here (besides not having worked on specific
                linguistic/philological problems for over a year). I'll try and get
                my act together in the weekend and reply then.

                But in the meantime ...

                >The corollary to this is that the name in the mid-second millennium was
                >Urusalim and this is confirmed by the NA writing Ursalimmu. Yeru$alim is
                >simply later.

                ... I'd like to try and establish the earliest evidence of YRW$LM.
                The Hebrew biblical encyclopedia mentions a seal from the early 2nd
                temple period and the Elephantine texts ["Jerusalem", v.3, p.792].

                Since the article is over 40 years old - are these indeed the
                earliest? Anyone with more specific details?

                More generally, is it safe to assume that the YRW$LM form is pre-Hellenistic?


                Ariel.

                [100% bona fide dilettante ... delecto ergo sum!]

                ---
                Ariel L. Szczupak
                AMIS-JLM (Ricercar Ltd.)
                POB 4707, Jerusalem, Israel 91401
                Phone: +972-2-5619660 Fax: +972-2-5634203
                ane.als@...
              • Ariel L. Szczupak
                ... Well, I got the books out (probably forgot some), and then got bogged down in Rainey s CAT, which was the obvious first choice :( That s Anson
                Message 7 of 8 , Mar 4 5:50 AM
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                  At 12:03 02/03/2006, Robert Whiting wrote:
                  >On Thu, 2 Mar 2006, Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:
                  >
                  > > At 20:30 01/03/2006, Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:
                  > > >At 15:59 01/03/2006, walter mattfeld wrote:
                  > > >>Can anyone explain how Urusalim came to obtain a "Ye" before "-urusalim"
                  > > >>(Yerusalem/Jerusalem)? Does "Ye-" have some particular meaning ?
                  > > >
                  > > >[Who said no floods in the ANE? Some 90 messages since I last
                  > > >checked, yesterday morning]
                  ><huge snip>
                  >
                  >Ariel, I won't try to respond to this point by point because I don't
                  >have any reference material (dictionaries and grammars) with me right
                  >now, but I'd like to make a couple of observations from memory that
                  >I can check on tomorrow. If anyone has better references (or a better
                  >memory) they can correct or revise the observations.

                  Well, I got the books out (probably forgot some), and then got bogged
                  down in Rainey's CAT, which was the obvious first choice :(

                  <start rant>

                  That's Anson F. Rainey, "Canaanite in the Amarna Tablets: A
                  Linguistic Analysis of the Mixed Dialect used by Scribes from
                  Canaan", 1995. Publisher? Brill :(

                  See http://www.brill.nl/product.asp?ID=2709

                  That's 4 volumes weighing 2.6kg, and listing at 736$. That's 283
                  $/kg. For comparison, the current price of silver is ~325 $/kg :( [I
                  was "lucky" to get them at a "bargain" price of ~500$]

                  But that's not really new, and not what drove me mad now. There are 3
                  "content" volumes and the fourth is the references and index of
                  passages cited.

                  There is no topical index and no combined table of contents for the
                  three "content" volumes.

                  How the @#$% do they think people should use these books? Open them
                  at random and expect pearls of wisdom to jump out, like the
                  Lubavitcher's letters?

                  <end rant>

                  I plan on writing a long message which I hope will help people here
                  with web research, and that will take the rest of my free time today.
                  But I'm going to continue checking (the books are already out ...).
                  And since the relevant messages will be spread in time, I'll use a
                  common "YR$LM:" prefix in message subjects, and I urge everyone to do
                  the same - it will help finding them later.

                  >On the contrast between Amarna Urusalim and later Yeru$alim, in Hebrew
                  >all common Semitic inital W- roots become initial Y- (WLD > YLD, W$B >
                  >Y$B, etc.). Thus the contrast of u- and ye- suggests -- at least to
                  >me -- that the search for a cognate to yeru- should be made among
                  >common Semitic roots with inital W-.

                  That would mean a W*R or a WR* root. I recall seeing something in
                  Rin. Will check and post. But there's no trivial candidate.


                  >Initial y- (usually rendered j- in deference to German lexical and
                  >grammatical scholarship) in Akkadian is rare, and outside of first
                  >person pronoun forms (ja:$i, etc.) occurs mostly in loan words of
                  >West Semitic origin.
                  >
                  >In fact, the IA sign is one of the very few Akkadian syllabic signs that
                  >was added to the syllabary after the cuneiform signary was closed early in
                  >the third millennium. It consists of a simple ligature of I and A and was
                  >added in the first century of the second millennium, primarily to record
                  >West Semitic (Amorite) words and names with which Akkadian was coming into
                  >increasing contact at the beginning of the second millennium. (An earlier
                  >rendering using I3+A is found in third millennium souces, but died out.)
                  >The IA sign is transcribed as ia, ie, ii, iu (i.e., it is indifferent to
                  >the vowel), but the i represents the semi-vowel y, not a vowel i.
                  >
                  >However, in West Semitic areas, particularly at Mari and later in the
                  >Amarna texts, the PI sign (also used for wa, we, wi, wu) was used to
                  >represent ya, ye, yi, yu, particularly in items of West Semitic origin.
                  >
                  >In the Amarna letters, one finds this usage often. The IA sign (which I
                  >will render as ja[/e/i/u] for the purposes of this discussion is used for
                  >Akkadian forms (ja-a-$i EA 287:12) and for the first person genitive
                  >pronominal suffix on Akkadian words (-ja, passim). The PI sign (which I
                  >will render with ya[/e/i/u]) is used in West Semitic items (la-ab-a-ya EA
                  >287:30) and also to "Canaanize" Akkadina verb forms with an initial
                  >ya/e/i/u prefix. This usage does not occur in EA 287 but in EA 286 (also
                  >from Abdi-heba) we find yi/à-qa-bi (EA 286:22).

                  CAT I, pp. 23-24 deals with glides, ending with ...

                  "PI(383) almost never serves as an Akkadian element, e.g. ka-ar-$i-ya
                  (EA 286:6). There are a limited number of instances where PI
                  expresses the 3rd m.s. verbal prefix with a- vowel, at least in
                  accordance with clear instances of a following aC sign, ya-am-lik (EA
                  114:20), detI-Ya-an-h_a-mu (EA 270:11), ya-ar-h_i-$a (EA 137:97),
                  possibly [ya]-[a$]-[me/] (EA 90:44) of we follow Schrorder's copy
                  rather that [sic, ALS] Yungblood's suggestion, (1961:346) to read
                  yi-[i$!]-[me/]. The vast majority of 3rd m.s. prefixes did not have
                  an a- vowel, e.g. yi-i$-me (EA 136:6), yi-im-lu-uk (EA 136:36),
                  yu-us.-s.i/ (EA 232:16) et passim. There are four examples of PI = a\
                  [a3] in the Jerusalem letters (Moran 1975b:151): u/-$a-a\-ru (EA
                  286:21, 24), a\-qa-bi (EA 286:22), an-ni-a\ (EA 289:9)"

                  [I hope my plain ascii transliteration is clear enough, e.g. a\ for a3, etc)]

                  >The inescapable conclusion is that if the scribe of EA 287 had wanted
                  >to express Yerusalim he would have written PI-ru-sa-lim and that
                  >therefore there is simply no /y/ explicit or implied in the writing
                  >ú-ru-sa-lim.

                  Given Rainey's reading of EA 186:22 (PI-qa-bi as /aqabi/, not
                  /yaqabi/), wouldn't PI-ru-sa-lim result in /arusalim/?

                  [I have no idea at this point why he reads it this way. Simply no
                  time to check further today]

                  But I agree that if the scribe really wanted to emphasize /yeru/
                  instead of /uru/, he'd find a way.

                  >The corollary to this is that the name in the mid-second millennium was
                  >Urusalim and this is confirmed by the NA writing Ursalimmu. Yeru$alim is
                  >simply later.

                  Since there's no mid 2nd mbc /yeru/ evidence, that's the simplest choice.

                  But the linguistic situation is not simple - a scribe writing a
                  Canaanite letter in Akkadian for Egyptian readers, a scribe whose L1
                  could be Akkadian or Canaanite.

                  [I tried to find what Rainey thinks about the scribes' L1, but the
                  lack of a topical index makes it difficult. The only somewhat
                  relevant thing I found so far [CAT I:36] is "The scribes in Canaan
                  maintained an independent tradition from the Khurro-Akkadian scribal
                  milieu even though they were interacting with scribes from the later
                  "school" and sometimes fell under its influence". Not much help :(]

                  Enough for today.


                  Ariel.

                  [100% bona fide dilettante ... delecto ergo sum!]

                  ---
                  Ariel L. Szczupak
                  AMIS-JLM (Ricercar Ltd.)
                  POB 4707, Jerusalem, Israel 91401
                  Phone: +972-2-5619660 Fax: +972-2-5634203
                  ane.als@...
                • Peter T. Daniels
                  ... I have seen at least two, and I think three, 20-page review articles of that opus, each of which contains an entirely different list of mistakes. I recall
                  Message 8 of 8 , Mar 4 6:16 AM
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                    Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:

                    > Well, I got the books out (probably forgot some), and then got bogged
                    > down in Rainey's CAT, which was the obvious first choice :(
                    >
                    > <start rant>
                    >
                    > That's Anson F. Rainey, "Canaanite in the Amarna Tablets: A
                    > Linguistic Analysis of the Mixed Dialect used by Scribes from
                    > Canaan", 1995. Publisher? Brill :(
                    >
                    > See http://www.brill.nl/product.asp?ID=2709
                    >
                    > That's 4 volumes weighing 2.6kg, and listing at 736$. That's 283
                    > $/kg. For comparison, the current price of silver is ~325 $/kg :( [I
                    > was "lucky" to get them at a "bargain" price of ~500$]
                    >
                    > But that's not really new, and not what drove me mad now. There are 3
                    > "content" volumes and the fourth is the references and index of
                    > passages cited.
                    >
                    > There is no topical index and no combined table of contents for the
                    > three "content" volumes.
                    >
                    > How the @#$% do they think people should use these books? Open them
                    > at random and expect pearls of wisdom to jump out, like the
                    > Lubavitcher's letters?
                    >
                    > <end rant>

                    I have seen at least two, and I think three, 20-page review articles of
                    that opus, each of which contains an entirely different list of
                    mistakes. I recall the ones by Eva von Dassow and John Huehnergard.
                    --
                    Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
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