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Fw: [ANE-2] Re: Urusalim

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  • Patrick Ryan
    ... From: Patrick Ryan To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 9:02 PM Subject:
    Message 1 of 6 , Feb 28, 2006
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Patrick Ryan<mailto:proto-language@...>
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 9:02 PM
      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: Urusalim



      ----- Original Message -----
      From: David Lorton<mailto:davidlorton@...<mailto:davidlorton@...>>
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>>
      Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 6:55 PM
      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: Urusalim


      Robert Whiting wrote:
      >
      > On Wed, 1 Mar 2006, Albert Naccache wrote:

      <snip>

      > Not my area of expertise. For this you need an Egyptologist. But I seem
      > to get the impression from NPL's article that there is a <w> after the <r>
      > which would seem to indicate a long /u:/. This, of course, conflicts with
      > the Neo-Assyrian evidence, but that is on the order of a thousand years
      > later.

      I haven't really researched Egyptian writings of west Asian names, but
      since no one else is likely to respond at this time, I might as well
      weigh in with the following based on such reading as I've done on the
      topic. There are two points I want to make.

      <snip>

      ***
      The Ächtungstexte have: 3ws3mm, Jerusalem /rû$âm(a)m/ (my suggested pronunciation).

      (source for spelling: Albright: The Vocalization of the Egyptian Syllabic Orthography)

      Patrick C. Ryan
      ***

      CORRECTION: 3w$3mm

      Sorry.

      Patrick C. Ryan




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    • David Lorton
      For the reasons I already stated, I don t think there s any point in trying to comment on the vocalization of the Egyptian writings of foreign names. But now
      Message 2 of 6 , Feb 28, 2006
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        For the reasons I already stated, I don't think there's any point in
        trying to comment on the vocalization of the Egyptian writings of
        foreign names.

        But now I'm getting curious about this alleged reference to Jerusalem.
        I wonder how a consonantal sign that supposedly indicates /r/ can be
        doing double duty to write the long vowel â. And if 3w$3mm is really
        Jerusalem, how do we account for the two m's? Or is this an instance of
        the famous m > l consonantal shift? And, I wonder, is there an
        archaeological-attested Jerusalem in the 19th century B.C.E.?

        My question about the "consonantal shift" was tongue-in-cheek, of
        course. Looking at the transliteration of the Egyptian writing, what I
        really wonder is whether this is an example of what I suggested earlier:
        a good-natured attempt at an equation of an Egyptian writing with a
        known toponym, but an attempt that went awry.

        David Lorton

        Patrick Ryan wrote:

        > <snip>
        >
        > ***
        > The Ächtungstexte have: 3ws3mm, Jerusalem /rû$âm(a)m/ (my suggested pronunciation).
        >
        > (source for spelling: Albright: The Vocalization of the Egyptian Syllabic Orthography)
        >
        > Patrick C. Ryan
        > ***
        >
        > CORRECTION: 3w$3mm
        >
        > Sorry.
        >
        > Patrick C. Ryan
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
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      • Patrick Ryan
        ... From: David Lorton To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 11:04 PM
        Message 3 of 6 , Mar 1, 2006
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: David Lorton<mailto:davidlorton@...>
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 11:04 PM
          Subject: Re: Fw: [ANE-2] Re: Urusalim

          <snip>

          ***
          The Ächtungstexte 3ws3mm, Jerusalem, might also have represented to the contemporaneous Egyptian something like /raw(a)$aram(a)m/.


          Patrick C. Ryan
          ***


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Joachim Friedrich Quack
          ... Actually, among specialists it is long known (since Montet and Albright), that in the Middle Kingdom writings of the execration texts the Egyptian
          Message 4 of 6 , Mar 1, 2006
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            David Lorton schrieb:

            >For the reasons I already stated, I don't think there's any point in
            >trying to comment on the vocalization of the Egyptian writings of
            >foreign names.
            >
            >But now I'm getting curious about this alleged reference to Jerusalem.
            >I wonder how a consonantal sign that supposedly indicates /r/ can be
            >doing double duty to write the long vowel â. And if 3w$3mm is really
            >Jerusalem, how do we account for the two m's? Or is this an instance of
            >the famous m > l consonantal shift? And, I wonder, is there an
            >archaeological-attested Jerusalem in the 19th century B.C.E.?
            >
            >My question about the "consonantal shift" was tongue-in-cheek, of
            >course. Looking at the transliteration of the Egyptian writing, what I
            >really wonder is whether this is an example of what I suggested earlier:
            >a good-natured attempt at an equation of an Egyptian writing with a
            >known toponym, but an attempt that went awry.
            >
            >David Lorton
            >
            >
            >
            Actually, among specialists it is long known (since Montet and
            Albright), that in the Middle Kingdom writings of the execration texts
            the Egyptian consonant normaly transcribed as 3 (the vulture sign) is
            only used for rendering semitic r and l, never to indicate a vowel.
            Concerning the final m, this is relatively frequent in Egyptian
            renderings of asiatic toponyms of the Middle Kingdom (e.g. skmm for
            Sichem) and seems to reflect a preserved mimation (case vowel plus final
            m for a noun in the status rectus).

            Joachim Quack
          • Patrick Ryan
            ... From: Joachim Friedrich Quack To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com Sent:
            Message 5 of 6 , Mar 1, 2006
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              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Joachim Friedrich Quack<mailto:joachim_friedrich.quack@...-heidelberg.de>
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 8:27 AM
              Subject: Re: Fw: [ANE-2] Re: Urusalim


              <snip>

              Actually, among specialists it is long known (since Montet and
              Albright), that in the Middle Kingdom writings of the execration texts
              the Egyptian consonant normaly transcribed as 3 (the vulture sign) is
              only used for rendering semitic r and l, never to indicate a vowel.
              Concerning the final m, this is relatively frequent in Egyptian
              renderings of asiatic toponyms of the Middle Kingdom (e.g. skmm for
              Sichem) and seems to reflect a preserved mimation (case vowel plus final
              m for a noun in the status rectus).

              ***
              So, is it being asserted here that Execration Text <mm> phonologically represents a single /m/ or final root <m> plus <m>?
              Patrick C. Ryan
              ***







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            • Joachim Friedrich Quack
              ... Obviously the second of your alternatives. Joachim Quack
              Message 6 of 6 , Mar 1, 2006
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                Patrick Ryan schrieb:

                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Joachim Friedrich Quack<mailto:joachim_friedrich.quack@...-heidelberg.de>
                > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Wednesday, March 01, 2006 8:27 AM
                > Subject: Re: Fw: [ANE-2] Re: Urusalim
                >
                >
                > <snip>
                >
                > Actually, among specialists it is long known (since Montet and
                > Albright), that in the Middle Kingdom writings of the execration texts
                > the Egyptian consonant normaly transcribed as 3 (the vulture sign) is
                > only used for rendering semitic r and l, never to indicate a vowel.
                > Concerning the final m, this is relatively frequent in Egyptian
                > renderings of asiatic toponyms of the Middle Kingdom (e.g. skmm for
                > Sichem) and seems to reflect a preserved mimation (case vowel plus final
                > m for a noun in the status rectus).
                >
                > ***
                > So, is it being asserted here that Execration Text <mm> phonologically represents a single /m/ or final root <m> plus <m>?
                > Patrick C. Ryan
                > ***
                >
                >
                Obviously the second of your alternatives.

                Joachim Quack
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