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RE: SV: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Ancient Nationlism?

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  • Andrew Fincke
    And in the Hexapla the Hebrew was written - transcribed - backwards in uncial Greek letters. So ELF came out FULH. But NP, what is so simple about
    Message 1 of 33 , Jan 2, 2007
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      And in the Hexapla the Hebrew was written - transcribed - backwards in uncial Greek letters. So ELF came out FULH. But NP, what is so simple about "thousands", and - in particular - "tribes and thousands". Are you saying that they were to divide themselves up into tribes, then from there into their thousands. But then the next verse says "And Samuel brought forth all the tribes of Israel, and the tribe of Benjamin was selected. And he broke down the tribe of Benjamin into families." There aren't many families with a thousand siblings. You've lost me. And, Victor, the verse is Gen 27:22, and it reads "The voice is the voice of Jacob and the hands the hands of Esau". Are you implying - chas vechalila - that Absalom's relationship with his hirsute daughter was less than unreproachable. Is that why 2 Sam 13:20 says "And Tamar sat in the house of Absalom her brother (read her father) dumbstruck"? And Liz, this is funny to you? Amnon lost his life over this girl - see
      2 Sam 13:2: "And Amnon was upset to the point of illness over Tamar, his sister".
      Andrew Fincke

      "Lisbeth S. Fried" <lizfried@...> wrote:
      Dear Victor—and Niels Peter,

      Guys, he’s joking! Lighten up!

      phule is Greek for tribe maybe – or for something—

      and spelling it backwards gives us elef, so the thousands is an error for
      phule,

      it’s all perfectly clear.

      Liz Fried

      And now to do some actual work.

      _____

      From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      victor
      Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 4:12 AM
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: SV: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Ancient Nationlism?

      Dear Niels,

      As for Andrew’s suggestion itself and his use of Hexpla – well, I just
      don’t’ understand it and I don’t have Hexapla in front of me to help me out.

      Best,

      Victor Hurowitz

      BGU Beer Sheva

      _____

      From: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
      [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com] On Behalf
      Of
      Niels Peter Lemche
      Sent: Tuesday, January 02, 2007 9:06 AM
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
      Subject: SV: SV: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Ancient Nationlism?

      In only you started on a Hebrew course! That we would not have all these
      faulty transcriptions. ulalfeyhem : several problems, the worst that you do
      not recognize the use of mater lectionis in -fe(y), the -y- is a mater
      lectionis and therefore not to be transcribed as y. The idea about
      Greek/Hebrew here is simply nonsense. You don't substitute what is perfectly
      understandable with what is not.

      I think that you should leave the Books of Samuel for a while and look
      through the OT for the use of these family terms. You will probably be
      surprised -- if you because of lack of formal training can see it -- when
      you see how these terms are used and the competition between certain terms.
      All explained in Early Israel.

      Niels Peter Lemche

      -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
      Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
      [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com] På vegne af
      Andrew Fincke
      Sendt: 2. januar 2007 00:46
      Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
      Emne: Re: SV: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Ancient Nationlism?

      What is all the confusion about tribe, clan and Benjamin? 1 Sam 9:21 is very
      clear: "Am I not a Benjamite, of the smallest of the tribes of Israel? And
      my family is the meagerest of all the families of the tribes of Benjamin?"
      And if that doesn't confuse you, try 1 Sam 10:19: "And now stand before the
      L--- to your tribes and to your thousands!" "Thousands" is elef and "and to
      your thousands" ulalfeyhem. It seems that the author meant to say fule
      "family" in Greek and got the word backward elef. Or it came out so in the
      Hexapla, which has Hebrew transcribed in Greek letters.
      Andrew Fincke

      "Ariel L. Szczupak" <ane.als@gmail. <mailto:ane.als%40gmail.com> com> wrote:
      At 06:57 PM 12/31/2006, Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:
      >[...]do you think that using those terms would add contents,
      >understanding to the discourse on those issues?

      I just thought of a possible example. If I recall correctly in
      anthropology "family" implies that inter-marriage is forbidden,
      taboo, "clan" (or gens, or sib) implies that inter-marriage is
      discouraged and "tribe" implies that inter-marriage is accepted, even
      encouraged. But I'm not certain - maybe someone with access to
      anthropology textbooks can check it.

      In that case calling a group a "clan" or a "tribe" would not be
      simply using different labels, or a determination based on vague
      perceptions of the size of the group, but would have implications as
      to the characteristics of the group.

      Just a thought ...

      Ariel.

      [100% bona fide dilettante ... delecto ergo sum!]

      ---
      Ariel L. Szczupak
      AMIS-JLM (Ricercar Ltd.)
      POB 4707, Jerusalem, Israel 91401
      Phone: +972-2-5619660 Fax: +972-2-5634203
      ane.als@gmail. <mailto:ane.als%40gmail.com> com

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    • nancy in chicago
      That s an interesting point -- where to begin. I ve only dipped into this occassionally, since you guys lost me long ago. I m just an interested observer.
      Message 33 of 33 , Jan 4, 2007
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        That's an interesting point -- where to begin. I've only dipped into this occassionally, since you guys lost me long ago. I'm just an interested observer. Can you give me some names of books to read, etc, to get more up to speed? And, especially, some assistance on teach yourself (since I'll never speak, just read) languages. Thanks!

        Where, if much of my knowledge on these subjects comes from BAR, BR (magazines) and books such as "Who Wrote the Bible?" by Friedman, "The Bible as History" By Keller & several courses from the Learning Company (www.teach12.com) with such lecturers as Bart D. Ehrman and Amy-Jill Levine. And a few Bible study classes at church.

        nancy in chicago
        Nancy L. Jones
        Arlington Hts, IL
        Interested Amature

        "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend; inside of a dog, it's toodark
        to read." Groucho Marx

        ---------- Original Message-----------
        From: Andrew Fincke <finckean@...>
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thu, 4 Jan 2007 10:20:14 -0800 (PST)
        Subject: Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: [ANE-2] Ancient Nationlism?

        > NP,
        >Where to begin? With The Israelites in History and Tradition, 1998? orPrelude to Israel's Past, 1998? Or Historical Dictionary, 2003? Or DieVogeschichte, 1996? Please advise.
        >Andrew Fincke
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