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SV: [ANE-2] Solomon and Ur-Salimu

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  • Niels Peter Lemche
    The problem is not URU salimu in the EA-letters but the spelling of Jerusalem in the Execration texts, which shows that the URU prefix may in this case also
    Message 1 of 23 , Feb 27, 2006
      The problem is not URU salimu in the EA-letters but the spelling of Jerusalem in the Execration texts, which shows that the URU prefix may in this case also represent a false etymology of Jerusalem as the' city of Salenm.' Sometimes, if if you like your hypotheses, you have to give in for facts.

      NPLemche

      -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
      Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Yitzhak Sapir
      Sendt: 27. februar 2006 19:29
      Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Emne: [ANE-2] Solomon and Ur-Salimu

      Dear Richard,

      > Would it be reasonable to read 'ur-Shalem'/salimu to mean that
      > the town was founded (or caused to be founded) _by_ Shalem/
      > salimu?

      You are responding to a quote of an abstract of an article by
      Niels Peter Lemche. I was wondering too about Lemche's
      statement that it is unlikely that the "This (probably false)
      etymology" referring to the interpretation of the name as
      "ur-salimu".

      Yitzhak Sapir





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    • Yitzhak Sapir
      ... Dear Niels Peter Lemche, So, if I understand right: the Amarna texts, in Akkadian, spell Uru-salimu as URU salimu ( city of Shalem ), but the earlier
      Message 2 of 23 , Feb 27, 2006
        On 2/27/06, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:
        > The problem is not URU salimu in the EA-letters but the spelling
        > of Jerusalem in the Execration texts, which shows that the URU
        > prefix may in this case also represent a false etymology of
        > Jerusalem as the' city of Salenm.' Sometimes, if if you like
        > your hypotheses, you have to give in for facts.
        >
        > NPLemche

        Dear Niels Peter Lemche,

        So, if I understand right: the Amarna texts, in Akkadian, spell
        Uru-salimu as URU salimu ("city of Shalem"), but the earlier
        Execretion Texts, in Egyptian, spell it in such a way so as to
        suggest that "URU salimu" of Amarna is a false etymology.

        This might mean that the city was not an ancient city whose
        founder patron god was Shalim but that at least as far as we
        can tell from the Amarna letters, citizens of the Amarna city
        could very well have liked to think it was?

        If this is what you say, do you cover this in the above cited
        article in Mario Liverani's volume?

        Best,
        Yitzhak Sapir
      • Niels Peter Lemche
        I was not that interested in the EA letters, apart form the linguistic evidence. URU salimu means the (city of) Salem, as you know, but the first element, the
        Message 3 of 23 , Feb 27, 2006
          I was not that interested in the EA letters, apart form the linguistic evidence. URU salimu means the (city of) Salem, as you know, but the first element, the URU thing, may also represent Jeru in Jerusalem, and thus represent a folk-etymology.

          NPLemche


          -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
          Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Yitzhak Sapir
          Sendt: 27. februar 2006 22:19
          Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Emne: Re: [ANE-2] Solomon and Ur-Salimu

          On 2/27/06, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:
          > The problem is not URU salimu in the EA-letters but the spelling
          > of Jerusalem in the Execration texts, which shows that the URU
          > prefix may in this case also represent a false etymology of
          > Jerusalem as the' city of Salenm.' Sometimes, if if you like
          > your hypotheses, you have to give in for facts.
          >
          > NPLemche

          Dear Niels Peter Lemche,

          So, if I understand right: the Amarna texts, in Akkadian, spell
          Uru-salimu as URU salimu ("city of Shalem"), but the earlier
          Execretion Texts, in Egyptian, spell it in such a way so as to
          suggest that "URU salimu" of Amarna is a false etymology.

          This might mean that the city was not an ancient city whose
          founder patron god was Shalim but that at least as far as we
          can tell from the Amarna letters, citizens of the Amarna city
          could very well have liked to think it was?

          If this is what you say, do you cover this in the above cited
          article in Mario Liverani's volume?

          Best,
          Yitzhak Sapir





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        • Robert Whiting
          ... It is most unfortunate that NPL wasn t that interested in the EA letters, because it would have allowed him to put this URU salimu nonsense to rest. In the
          Message 4 of 23 , Feb 28, 2006
            On Mon, 27 Feb 2006, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:

            > I was not that interested in the EA letters, apart form the linguistic
            > evidence. URU salimu means the (city of) Salem, as you know, but the
            > first element, the URU thing, may also represent Jeru in Jerusalem, and
            > thus represent a folk-etymology.

            It is most unfortunate that NPL wasn't that interested in the EA letters,
            because it would have allowed him to put this URU salimu nonsense to rest.
            In the paper posted by Jim West
            (http://web.infoave.net/~jwest/solomon.pdf), cites four examples of "URU
            Salimmu" (EA 287/LA 38:25, 46, 61, 63).

            The writing of these examples (taken from
            http://www.tau.ac.il/humanities/semitic/EA263-end.html) is:

            KUR URU ú-ru-$a10-lim (287:25)
            KUR URU ú-ru-$a10-lim.KI (287:46)
            KUR ú-ru-sa-lim.KI (287:61)
            KUR.HÁ URU ú-ru-$a10-lim.KI (287:63)

            There simply is no *URU Salimma in this text. There is only URU Urusalim
            where URU is simply the determinative before city names as regularly used
            through the Amarna texts and elsewhere in Akkadian. A conflation of the
            URU determinative with the syllabically written ú-ru- at the beginning of
            the city name has led to the confusion. The name of the city was Urusalim
            as is clearly spelled out syllabically and corresponds by and large to the
            spelling from the execration texts.


            Bob Whiting
            whiting@...
          • Patrick Ryan
            The writing of these examples (taken from http://www.tau.ac.il/humanities/semitic/EA263-end.html) is:
            Message 5 of 23 , Feb 28, 2006
              The writing of these examples (taken from
              http://www.tau.ac.il/humanities/semitic/EA263-end.html)<http://www.tau.acil/humanities/semitic/EA263-end.html)> is:

              KUR URU �-ru-$a10-lim (287:25)
              KUR URU �-ru-$a10-lim.KI (287:46)
              KUR �-ru-sa-lim.KI (287:61)
              KUR.H� URU �-ru-$a10-lim.KI (287:63)

              There simply is no *URU Salimma in this text. There is only URU Urusalim where URU is simply the determinative before city names as regularly used through the Amarna texts and elsewhere in Akkadian. A conflation of the URU determinative with the syllabically written �-ru- at the beginning of the city name has led to the confusion. The name of the city was Urusalim as is clearly spelled out syllabically and corresponds by and large to the spelling from the execration texts.

              ***

              Thank you, Bob, for going "the extra mile".

              In my opinion, this proves as much as we ever will be able to do so, that the name is Uru-šalim. I think it is worth noticing that the first element is consistently �- rather than simply u-.

              Also, the final determinative (KI) should also be of interest.


              Patrick C. Ryan

              ***


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Robert Whiting
              On Tue, 28 Feb 2006, Patrick Ryan wrote: ... No extra mile involved. This is something that Assyriologists know. I would have written about it last night when
              Message 6 of 23 , Feb 28, 2006
                On Tue, 28 Feb 2006, Patrick Ryan wrote:

                [From Robert Whiting]:
                > The writing of these examples (taken from
                > http://www.tau.ac.il/humanities/semitic/EA263-end.html)
                > is:
                >
                > KUR URU ú-ru-$a10-lim (287:25)
                > KUR URU ú-ru-$a10-lim.KI (287:46)
                > KUR ú-ru-sa-lim.KI (287:61)
                > KUR.HÁ URU ú-ru-$a10-lim.KI (287:63)
                >
                > There simply is no *URU Salimma in this text. There is only URU
                > Urusalim where URU is simply the determinative before city names as
                > regularly used through the Amarna texts and elsewhere in Akkadian. A
                > conflation of the URU determinative with the syllabically written ú-ru-
                > at the beginning of the city name has led to the confusion. The name of
                > the city was Urusalim as is clearly spelled out syllabically and
                > corresponds by and large to the spelling from the execration texts.
                >
                > ***
                >
                > Thank you, Bob, for going "the extra mile".

                No extra mile involved. This is something that Assyriologists know.
                I would have written about it last night when Jim put up NPL's paper, but
                I couldn't make the link to the online Amarna archive work to document it.

                > In my opinion, this proves as much as we ever will be able to do so,
                > that the name is Uru-Å¡alim. I think it is worth noticing that the first
                > element is consistently ú- rather than simply u-.

                Why? What is the significance of the difference between a writing of
                initial ú- and a writing of initial u- in the Amarna texts?

                > Also, the final determinative (KI) should also be of interest.

                Again, why? KI is simply a postposed determinative used in the cuneiform
                script to indicate a place name. There would seem to be little doubt that
                Urusalim is a place name. Why should this use be of any more interest
                than the other thousands and thousands of occurrences of this
                determinative in cuneiform texts?


                Bob Whiting
                whiting@...
              • Peter T. Daniels
                ... Why? That s the usual writing for /u/. ... Why? It marks the city s name as the name of a city. -- Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net
                Message 7 of 23 , Feb 28, 2006
                  Patrick Ryan wrote:

                  > In my opinion, this proves as much as we ever will be able to do so,
                  > that the name is Uru-Å¡alim. I think it is worth noticing that the
                  > first element is consistently ú- rather than simply u-.

                  Why? That's the usual writing for /u/.

                  > Also, the final determinative (KI) should also be of interest.

                  Why? It marks the city's name as the name of a city.
                  --
                  Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
                • Patrick Ryan
                  ... From: Robert Whiting To: ANE-2 Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 9:24 AM Subject: Urusalim (was
                  Message 8 of 23 , Feb 28, 2006
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Robert Whiting<mailto:whiting@...>
                    To: ANE-2<mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 9:24 AM
                    Subject: Urusalim (was Re: SV: [ANE-2] Solomon and Ur-Salimu)


                    On Tue, 28 Feb 2006, Patrick Ryan wrote:

                    <snip>

                    > ***
                    >
                    > Thank you, Bob, for going "the extra mile".

                    No extra mile involved. This is something that Assyriologists know.
                    I would have written about it last night when Jim put up NPL's paper, but
                    I couldn't make the link to the online Amarna archive work to document it.

                    > In my opinion, this proves as much as we ever will be able to do so,
                    > that the name is Uru-Å¡alim. I think it is worth noticing that the first
                    > element is consistently ú- rather than simply u-.

                    Why? What is the significance of the difference between a writing of
                    initial ú- and a writing of initial u- in the Amarna texts?

                    > Also, the final determinative (KI) should also be of interest.

                    Again, why? KI is simply a postposed determinative used in the cuneiform
                    script to indicate a place name. There would seem to be little doubt that
                    Urusalim is a place name. Why should this use be of any more interest
                    than the other thousands and thousands of occurrences of this
                    determinative in cuneiform texts?

                    ***
                    In working with Sumerian, I believe I have discovered that Sumerian u (with various frequency subscripts) represents what were probably earlier *û, *ü, as well as simple u, masked by the inability of the Akkadian scribes to clearly indicate the differences (if they were even aware of them). The choice of u might have some bearing on a possible narrower correspondence with Yeru-.

                    In Sumerian practice, one might compare kar (D)En-lí-lá-sè (no KI) as opposed to kar Sirara(KI)na-ke-4, where the latter suggests (to me) a slightly greater likelihood of a place name rather than a divine or personal name - just a thought.

                    Patrick C. Ryan

                    ***



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                  • walter mattfeld
                    I wonder, has a _petrographical examination_ been done of the clays found in the tablets from Jerusalem found at Tell el Amarna in Egypt ? Such an
                    Message 9 of 23 , Feb 28, 2006
                      I wonder, has a _petrographical examination_ been done of the clays found in the "tablets from Jerusalem" found at Tell el Amarna in Egypt ? Such an examination might "help" (?) establish there was a Jerusalem in existence in Amarna times, if the local clays match the tablets. Just a thought. I believe some Amarna Tablets have been petrographically examined for other locations.

                      Regards, Walter
                      Walter Reinhold Warttig Mattfeld y de la Torre, M.A. Ed.
                      mattfeld12@...
                      www.bibleorigins.net

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Niels Peter Lemche
                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 10:51 AM
                      Subject: SV: Urusalim (was Re: SV: [ANE-2] Solomon and Ur-Salimu)




                      Again, why? KI is simply a postposed determinative used in the
                      cuneiform
                      script to indicate a place name. There would seem to be little doubt
                      that
                      Urusalim is a place name. Why should this use be of any more interest
                      than the other thousands and thousands of occurrences of this
                      determinative in cuneiform texts?


                      Bob Whiting
                      whiting@...



                      The real trouble of this Amarna Jerusalem is that it still has to be
                      found. There seems to be no city of Jerusalem around in that period,
                      archaeologists tell, and still we have a series of letters from
                      Jerusalem in the 14th century. A wonderful crux.

                      NPLemche


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                    • Kevin P. Edgecomb
                      Bob Whiting wrote: The writing of these examples (taken from http://www.tau.ac.il/humanities/semitic/EA263-end.html) is: KUR URU ú-ru-$a10-lim (287:25)
                      Message 10 of 23 , Feb 28, 2006
                        Bob Whiting wrote:
                        The writing of these examples (taken from
                        http://www.tau.ac.il/humanities/semitic/EA263-end.html) is:

                        KUR URU ú-ru-$a10-lim (287:25)
                        KUR URU ú-ru-$a10-lim.KI (287:46)
                        KUR ú-ru-sa-lim.KI (287:61)
                        KUR.HÁ URU ú-ru-$a10-lim.KI (287:63)

                        KPE writes:
                        Very nice! I'm happy to be thus corrected, and to be simultaneously
                        informed of such a useful online resource.

                        Regards,
                        Kevin P. Edgecomb
                        Berkeley, California
                      • Robert Whiting
                        ... ... It might if EA 287 had been written by a native speaker of Sumerian. However, I suspect that such beasts were fairly thin on the ground in 14th
                        Message 11 of 23 , Feb 28, 2006
                          On Tue, 28 Feb 2006, Patrick Ryan wrote:

                          > On Tue, 28 Feb 2006, Patrick Ryan wrote:
                          >
                          > <snip>
                          >
                          <snip>
                          > > In my opinion, this proves as much as we ever will be able to do so,
                          > > that the name is Uru-Å¡alim. I think it is worth noticing that the first
                          > > element is consistently ú- rather than simply u-.
                          >
                          > Why? What is the significance of the difference between a writing of
                          > initial ú- and a writing of initial u- in the Amarna texts?
                          >
                          > > Also, the final determinative (KI) should also be of interest.
                          >
                          > Again, why? KI is simply a postposed determinative used in the cuneiform
                          > script to indicate a place name. There would seem to be little doubt that
                          > Urusalim is a place name. Why should this use be of any more interest
                          > than the other thousands and thousands of occurrences of this
                          > determinative in cuneiform texts?
                          >
                          > ***
                          > In working with Sumerian, I believe I have discovered that Sumerian u
                          > (with various frequency subscripts) represents what were probably
                          > earlier *û, *ü, as well as simple u, masked by the inability of the
                          > Akkadian scribes to clearly indicate the differences (if they were even
                          > aware of them). The choice of u might have some bearing on a possible
                          > narrower correspondence with Yeru-.

                          It might if EA 287 had been written by a native speaker of Sumerian.
                          However, I suspect that such beasts were fairly thin on the ground in
                          14th century BC Syrian and Palestine. If speakers of Akkadian couldn't
                          hear putative differences in Sumerian vowels, I doubt that speakers of
                          proto-Canaanite (or whatever) who had never heard a Sumerian speak would
                          be aware of them. In any case, there are no writings of u- in the Amarna
                          letters, all writings are with ú- and therefore any putative
                          reconstruction of Sumerian phonolgy is simply irrelevant to the time and
                          place.

                          English once had a letter called yogh, too, but I wouldn't expect a
                          speaker of English in countries where English is the language of
                          communication but not spoken as a mother tongue to know what it looks
                          like or what sound it stood for.

                          > In Sumerian practice, one might compare kar (D)En-lí-lá-sè (no KI) as
                          > opposed to kar Sirara(KI)na-ke-4, where the latter suggests (to me) a
                          > slightly greater likelihood of a place name rather than a divine or
                          > personal name - just a thought.

                          Again, Sumerian graphic praxis is simply irrelevant to 14th century Syria
                          and Palestine. In EA 287 Urusalim is written both with and without the
                          KI determinative. Since the letter was arguably written by the same
                          person from beginning to end, presence or absence of the KI determinative
                          would seem to be of little significance in the context of the Amarna
                          correspondence.


                          Bob Whiting
                          whiting@...
                        • Yitzhak Sapir
                          ... Dear Walter, Please refer here: http://www.tau.ac.il/humanities/archaeology/projects/amarna.html Note that Jerusalem appears in two places: 1) Letters from
                          Message 12 of 23 , Feb 28, 2006
                            On 2/28/06, walter mattfeld wrote:
                            > I wonder, has a _petrographical examination_ been done of the clays
                            > found in the "tablets from Jerusalem" found at Tell el Amarna in Egypt ?

                            Dear Walter,

                            Please refer here:
                            http://www.tau.ac.il/humanities/archaeology/projects/amarna.html

                            Note that Jerusalem appears in two places:
                            1) Letters from securely identified cities in Canaan, such as ... Jerusalem
                            ... have, in most cases, a mineralogical and lithological composition that
                            is in agreement with their geological environment.
                            2) However, some letters from Canaanite city-states were made from raw
                            materials that do not fit their location. These tablets are clustered in two
                            groups. ... The second group, which includes tablets from Jerusalem
                            ... contains marl and sand ... These are all characteristic of the
                            central
                            Jordan Valley sediments.

                            So is "most" a key word in #1 that is intended to exclude Jerusalem?

                            Yitzhak Sapir
                          • Peter T. Daniels
                            ... Couyld it be as simple a matter as whether there was room on the line to write the KI? -- Peter T. Daniels grammatim@att.net
                            Message 13 of 23 , Feb 28, 2006
                              Robert Whiting wrote:

                              > Again, Sumerian graphic praxis is simply irrelevant to 14th century Syria
                              > and Palestine.  In EA 287 Urusalim is written both with and without the
                              > KI determinative.  Since the letter was arguably written by the same
                              > person from beginning to end, presence or absence of the KI
                              > determinative
                              > would seem to be of little significance in the context of the Amarna
                              > correspondence.

                              Couyld it be as simple a matter as whether there was room on the line to
                              write the KI?
                              --
                              Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
                            • Robert Whiting
                              ... Unlikely since the name is not at the end of the line. The full line is 287:025 [a-]mur KUR URU ú-ru-$a10-lim an-n[i-]ta (which you should be able to
                              Message 14 of 23 , Feb 28, 2006
                                On Tue, 28 Feb 2006, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

                                > Robert Whiting wrote:
                                >
                                > > Again, Sumerian graphic praxis is simply irrelevant to 14th century Syria
                                > > and Palestine.  In EA 287 Urusalim is written both with and without the
                                > > KI determinative.  Since the letter was arguably written by the same
                                > > person from beginning to end, presence or absence of the KI
                                > > determinative
                                > > would seem to be of little significance in the context of the Amarna
                                > > correspondence.
                                >
                                > Couyld it be as simple a matter as whether there was room on the line to
                                > write the KI?

                                Unlikely since the name is not at the end of the line. The full line is

                                287:025 [a-]mur KUR URU ú-ru-$a10-lim an-n[i-]ta

                                (which you should be able to see by going to the web site
                                http://www.tau.ac.il/humanities/semitic/EA263-end.html).

                                One of the problems with the Amarna texts is that they have never
                                been published in their entirety in copies so it is difficult to
                                tell in many instances what the tablet itself is like. Shlomo
                                collated a number of them for his publication, but apparently EA
                                287 was not among these. So it is also possible that Knudzton missed
                                it. I put this at about the same level of likelihood as the possiblity
                                that it was left out because there wasn't enough room on the line.

                                The rigorousness of the use of KI as a determinative for place names
                                depends on the nature of the writing system. Sumerian writing was
                                logo-syllabic. Place names that were written logographically required the
                                KI (d.EN.LIL2 = Enlil [the god] EN.LIL2.KI = nibru [the city Nippur]).
                                However, when the name was written syllabically (mostly with foreign names
                                for which there was no logogram), even in Sumerian, the KI could be
                                omitted (ur-bi2-lum [most often with KI, but frequently without in Ur III
                                Sumerian] = Urbilum [modern Erbil]. Determinatives used with a basically
                                logographic system give essential clues to the reading of a sign or sign
                                group.

                                Akkadian cuneiform, on the other hand, was a logogram-including syllabic
                                system (much as English is a logogram-including alphabetic system).
                                Logograms were used quite frequently in writing Akkadian, but basically it
                                could be written entirely syllabically. With completely syllabic writing,
                                determinatives are not essential because the reading of a sign group is
                                explicit. Hence determinatives could be, and often were, dispensed with
                                in conjunction with syllabic writing.

                                In the Amarna texts, as with Ur III Sumerian, the determinative KI was
                                most often used, but not infrequently omitted when a name was written
                                syllabically.


                                Bob Whiting
                                whiting@...
                              • Albert Naccache
                                ... How would / ú-ru-$a10-lim / be pronounced by `Abdi Heba or his scribe? Did the rule of no three consecutive short vowels apply in Canaanite ? In this
                                Message 15 of 23 , Feb 28, 2006
                                  At 2/28/2006, Bob Whiting wrote:

                                  > 287:025 [a-]mur KUR URU ú-ru-$a10-lim an-n[i-]ta

                                  How would / ú-ru-$a10-lim / be pronounced by `Abdi Heba or his scribe?
                                  Did the rule of "no three consecutive short vowels" apply in "Canaanite"?

                                  In this thread it has been written both Uru$alim and Ur$alim.

                                  In Arabic today it is Ur$alim (but I have heard Ura$alim, probable
                                  hypercorrection, I assumed).

                                  The Shorter Encyclopedia of Islam has under entry "Al-Kuds," "usual Arabic name for Jerusalem in later times. The older writers call it commonly Bait al MaKdis (...) which really meant the Temple (of Solomon), a translation of the Hebrew Bet HammiKdash (...) but it became applied to the whole town. They also frequently usde the name Iliya:', form Colonia Aelia Capitolina, the Roman name given to it after 135 A.D. They likewise knew the old name Jerusalem, which they reproduce as Uri$alim (or -am)."

                                  So what was it, at least in the IInd MBC?
                                  Ur, Uru, Ura or Uri?
                                  What do the Execration texts tel us?

                                  Albert Naccache
                                  Beroot, Lebanon
                                • Peter T. Daniels
                                  ... The scribe did not want to break a word onto the next line, and the scribe wanted a neat right margin. Thus he could have included the KI if there was room
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Feb 28, 2006
                                    Robert Whiting wrote:
                                    >
                                    > On Tue, 28 Feb 2006, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

                                    > > Couyld it be as simple a matter as whether there was room on the line to
                                    > > write the KI?
                                    >
                                    > Unlikely since the name is not at the end of the line.  The full line
                                    > is
                                    >
                                    >   287:025  [a-]mur KUR URU ú-ru-$a10-lim an-n[i-]ta

                                    > Akkadian cuneiform, on the other hand, was a logogram-including syllabic
                                    > system (much as English is a logogram-including alphabetic system).
                                    > Logograms were used quite frequently in writing Akkadian, but basically it
                                    > could be written entirely syllabically.  With completely syllabic writing,
                                    > determinatives are not essential because the reading of a sign group is
                                    > explicit.  Hence determinatives could be, and often were, dispensed with
                                    > in conjunction with syllabic writing.
                                    >
                                    > In the Amarna texts, as with Ur III Sumerian, the determinative KI was
                                    > most often used, but not infrequently omitted when a name was written
                                    > syllabically.

                                    The scribe did not want to break a word onto the next line, and the
                                    scribe wanted a neat right margin. Thus he could have included the KI if
                                    there was room for four signs, or omitted it if there wasn't.

                                    If there was even less space, he might even have written a-ni-ta instead
                                    of an-ni-ta, since <a> is much narrower than <an>.

                                    You noted that the GN occurs both ways on the same tablet, so unless you
                                    want to claim the use of KI is totally random, this is a reasonable
                                    explanation.
                                    --
                                    Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
                                  • Robert Whiting
                                    ... Dunno. Shlomo Izre el is the person to ask. ... The only cuneiform sources (i.e., fully vocalized) are the Amarna texts and the inscriptions of
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Feb 28, 2006
                                      On Wed, 1 Mar 2006, Albert Naccache wrote:

                                      > At 2/28/2006, Bob Whiting wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > 287:025 [a-]mur KUR URU ú-ru-$a10-lim an-n[i-]ta
                                      >
                                      > How would / ú-ru-$a10-lim / be pronounced by `Abdi Heba or his scribe?
                                      > Did the rule of "no three consecutive short vowels" apply in "Canaanite"?

                                      Dunno. Shlomo Izre'el is the person to ask.

                                      > In this thread it has been written both Uru$alim and Ur$alim.

                                      The only cuneiform sources (i.e., fully vocalized) are the Amarna texts
                                      and the inscriptions of Sennacherib. In the Amarna texts it is regularly
                                      written ú-ru-sa-lim (with or without the determinatives KUR URU and KI.
                                      The occurrence of $a10 in some renderings is a normalization. sa and
                                      $a10 are the same sign.

                                      In the inscriptions of Sennacherib it occurs as ur-sa-li-im-mu (once as
                                      a variant ur-sa-li-im-ma, but always with the determinative URU).

                                      From the KWIC concordance of the SAA Project:

                                      (gn)Ursalimmu
                                      OIP 2 C1 055 SIG5-ME` @a a-na dun-nu-un URU=ur-sa-li-im-mu URU LUGAL-ti-
                                      OIP 2 H1a 340 *u2 SIG5-ME` @a a-na dun-nun URU=ur-sa-li-im-mu URU LUGAL-ti-
                                      OIP 2 C1 052 @u2 GIM MU`EN qu-pi qe2-reb URU=ur-sa-li-im-ma URU LUGAL-ti-
                                      OIP 2 H1a 328 * GIM MU`EN qu-up-pi qe2-reb URU=ur-sa-li-im-mu URU LUGAL-ti-
                                      OIP 2 C1 048 LUGAL-@u2-nu ul-tu qe2-reb URU=ur-sa-li-im-mu u2-@e-$a-am-m
                                      OIP 2 H1a 315 * LUGAL-@u2-nu ul-tu qe2-reb URU=ur-sa-li-im-mu u2-@e-$a-am-m

                                      This writing suggests that the second /u/ of Urusalim was short, hence
                                      elided. The writing also suggests that the final /i/ may have been
                                      long (V:CV and VC:V frequently interchange in cuneiform writing).

                                      > So what was it, at least in the IInd MBC?
                                      > Ur, Uru, Ura or Uri?

                                      Probably Uru with second /u/ quite likely short.

                                      > What do the Execration texts tel us?

                                      Not my area of expertise. For this you need an Egyptologist. But I seem
                                      to get the impression from NPL's article that there is a <w> after the <r>
                                      which would seem to indicate a long /u:/. This, of course, conflicts with
                                      the Neo-Assyrian evidence, but that is on the order of a thousand years
                                      later.


                                      Bob Whiting
                                      whiting@...
                                    • David Lorton
                                      ... ... I haven t really researched Egyptian writings of west Asian names, but since no one else is likely to respond at this time, I might as
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Feb 28, 2006
                                        Robert Whiting wrote:
                                        >
                                        > On Wed, 1 Mar 2006, Albert Naccache wrote:

                                        <lengthy SNIP>

                                        > This writing suggests that the second /u/ of Urusalim was short, hence
                                        > elided. The writing also suggests that the final /i/ may have been
                                        > long (V:CV and VC:V frequently interchange in cuneiform writing).
                                        >
                                        > > So what was it, at least in the IInd MBC?
                                        > > Ur, Uru, Ura or Uri?
                                        >
                                        > Probably Uru with second /u/ quite likely short.
                                        >
                                        > > What do the Execration texts tel us?
                                        >
                                        > Not my area of expertise. For this you need an Egyptologist. But I seem
                                        > to get the impression from NPL's article that there is a <w> after the <r>
                                        > which would seem to indicate a long /u:/. This, of course, conflicts with
                                        > the Neo-Assyrian evidence, but that is on the order of a thousand years
                                        > later.

                                        I haven't really researched Egyptian writings of west Asian names, but
                                        since no one else is likely to respond at this time, I might as well
                                        weigh in with the following based on such reading as I've done on the
                                        topic. There are two points I want to make.

                                        First, it's always seemed to me that the attempted identifications of
                                        foreign place names in Egyptian texts (whether the Execration Texts or
                                        texts of pretty much any other period) are largely a matter of
                                        well-intentioned guesses. However informed the guesses are, they're
                                        still guesses.

                                        Second, we don't know what rules (if the term "rules" even applies) the
                                        Egyptian scribes followed in making their renderings of foreign names.
                                        Again, the best that can be done is along the line of well-intentioned guesses.

                                        For these reasons, I wouldn't recommend attempting to use Egyptian
                                        writings for a purpose such as determining the length of a vowel in an
                                        ancient toponym.

                                        David Lorton
                                      • Patrick Ryan
                                        ... From: David Lorton To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 6:55 PM
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Feb 28, 2006
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: David Lorton<mailto:davidlorton@...>
                                          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 6:55 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: Urusalim


                                          Robert Whiting wrote:
                                          >
                                          > On Wed, 1 Mar 2006, Albert Naccache wrote:

                                          <snip>

                                          > Not my area of expertise. For this you need an Egyptologist. But I seem
                                          > to get the impression from NPL's article that there is a <w> after the <r>
                                          > which would seem to indicate a long /u:/. This, of course, conflicts with
                                          > the Neo-Assyrian evidence, but that is on the order of a thousand years
                                          > later.

                                          I haven't really researched Egyptian writings of west Asian names, but
                                          since no one else is likely to respond at this time, I might as well
                                          weigh in with the following based on such reading as I've done on the
                                          topic. There are two points I want to make.

                                          <snip>

                                          ***
                                          The Ächtungstexte have: 3ws3mm, Jerusalem /rû$âm(a)m/ (my suggested pronunciation).

                                          (source for spelling: Albright: The Vocalization of the Egyptian Syllabic Orthography)

                                          Patrick C. Ryan
                                          ***






                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Giuseppe Del Monte
                                          ... Photos of EA 287 (and of many other EA tablets from the VaM Berlin) are published in: http://amarna.filol.csic.es/amarna/Tablillas/ Line 25 has a lot of
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Feb 28, 2006
                                            At 22.47 28/02/2006, Robert Whiting wrote:

                                            >On Tue, 28 Feb 2006, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
                                            ><snip>
                                            > > Couyld it be as simple a matter as whether there was room on the line to
                                            > > write the KI?
                                            >
                                            >Unlikely since the name is not at the end of the line. The full line is
                                            >
                                            > 287:025 [a-]mur KUR URU ú-ru-$a10-lim an-n[i-]ta
                                            >
                                            >(which you should be able to see by going to the web site
                                            >http://www.tau.ac.il/humanities/semitic/EA263-end.html).
                                            >
                                            >One of the problems with the Amarna texts is that they have never
                                            >been published in their entirety in copies so it is difficult to
                                            >tell in many instances what the tablet itself is like. Shlomo
                                            >collated a number of them for his publication, but apparently EA
                                            >287 was not among these. So it is also possible that Knudzton missed
                                            >it. I put this at about the same level of likelihood as the possiblity
                                            >that it was left out because there wasn't enough room on the line.
                                            ><snip>

                                            Photos of EA 287 (and of many other EA tablets
                                            from the VaM Berlin) are published in:

                                            http://amarna.filol.csic.es/amarna/Tablillas/

                                            Line 25 has a lot of space for an additional KI;
                                            it's not lack of space the reason for the omission.

                                            Best regards,
                                            Giuseppe Del Monte


                                            --------------
                                            Prof. Dr. Giuseppe del Monte
                                            Professore Ordinario di Ittitologia
                                            e Storia del Vicino Oriente antico
                                            Dpt. Scienze storiche del mondo antico
                                            Università di Pisa
                                            via Galvani 1 - I-56100 Pisa
                                            Fax 39-050-500668 - E-mail <gdelmonte@...>


                                            --
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                                          • Robert Whiting
                                            ... Thank you for pointing out this marvellous resource. I had been searching the net for photographs of Amarna texts, but without large-scale success. ...
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Mar 1, 2006
                                              On Wed, 1 Mar 2006, Giuseppe Del Monte wrote:

                                              > Photos of EA 287 (and of many other EA tablets
                                              > from the VaM Berlin) are published in:
                                              >
                                              > http://amarna.filol.csic.es/amarna/Tablillas/

                                              Thank you for pointing out this marvellous resource. I had been searching
                                              the net for photographs of Amarna texts, but without large-scale success.

                                              > Line 25 has a lot of space for an additional KI;
                                              > it's not lack of space the reason for the omission.

                                              Yes, this was always a non-starter, especially since it required a desire
                                              for a justified right margin. Such justification may be characteristic
                                              of copies of literary texts for archives or libraries or of monumental
                                              inscriptions, but not of everyday texts such as letters, contracts, or
                                              administrative texts. There are exceptions, of course, to both
                                              categorizations, but the Amarna texts that I have seen did not seem to
                                              be exceptional in this regard.


                                              Bob Whiting
                                              whiting@...
                                            • Robert Whiting
                                              ... ... Fortunately, with the link to a photograph of the tablet by Giuseppe del Monte, your reasonable explanation (viz. just-so
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Mar 1, 2006
                                                On Tue, 28 Feb 2006, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

                                                > Robert Whiting wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > On Tue, 28 Feb 2006, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > > Couyld it be as simple a matter as whether there was room on the
                                                > > > line to write the KI?
                                                > >
                                                > > Unlikely since the name is not at the end of the line.  The full line
                                                > > is
                                                > >
                                                > >   287:025  [a-]mur KUR URU ú-ru-$a10-lim an-n[i-]ta
                                                <undocumented snip>
                                                > > Akkadian cuneiform, on the other hand, was a logogram-including syllabic
                                                > > system (much as English is a logogram-including alphabetic system).
                                                > > Logograms were used quite frequently in writing Akkadian, but basically it
                                                > > could be written entirely syllabically.  With completely syllabic writing,
                                                > > determinatives are not essential because the reading of a sign group is
                                                > > explicit.  Hence determinatives could be, and often were, dispensed with
                                                > > in conjunction with syllabic writing.
                                                > >
                                                > > In the Amarna texts, as with Ur III Sumerian, the determinative KI was
                                                > > most often used, but not infrequently omitted when a name was written
                                                > > syllabically.
                                                >
                                                > The scribe did not want to break a word onto the next line, and the
                                                > scribe wanted a neat right margin. Thus he could have included the KI if
                                                > there was room for four signs, or omitted it if there wasn't.
                                                >
                                                > If there was even less space, he might even have written a-ni-ta instead
                                                > of an-ni-ta, since <a> is much narrower than <an>.
                                                >
                                                > You noted that the GN occurs both ways on the same tablet, so unless you
                                                > want to claim the use of KI is totally random, this is a reasonable
                                                > explanation.

                                                Fortunately, with the link to a photograph of the tablet by Giuseppe del
                                                Monte, your "reasonable explanation" (viz. "just-so story") has become
                                                a scientific theory (i.e., it has a test for falsification).

                                                The photograph of the obverse (http://amarna.filol.csic.es/amarna/Tablillas/EA%20287/EA%20287-VAT%201644%20(2).jpg),
                                                shows clearly that the right margin is not justified and, as NPL and
                                                Giuseppe del Monte have observed, there is room on the line for an
                                                additional KI, especially since, as NPL has again observed and the
                                                photograph of the right edge (http://amarna.filol.csic.es/amarna/Tablillas/EA%20287/EA%20287-VAT%201644%20(5).jpg)
                                                clearly shows, the scribe had no compuction about continuing the lines
                                                onto the right edge of the tablet.

                                                I don't claim that the use is random, only that when a name is written
                                                syllabically, determinatives are no longer essential to interpretation
                                                and thus more easily elided. Differences that don't make a distinction
                                                tend to become neutralized. When differences are important to
                                                interpretation and understanding they are preserved even in English
                                                where, when the context is unclear, we use determinatives to clarify
                                                whether we are talking about "the city (of) Assur" or "the god Assur."

                                                However, if you require a "reasonable explanation" for the missing KI,
                                                try this:

                                                The scribe was part of an espionage ring sending information
                                                to the Egyptian chancery and the message was conveyed by the missing
                                                signs in the text. The recipient had to note what signs were missing
                                                and then combine them correctly to interpret the message. The missing
                                                KI in line 26 and the missing URU in line 61 indicate that the writer
                                                was sending information about some city, but since portions of the
                                                tablet are destroyed we'll probably never be able to reconstruct the
                                                full message.

                                                Now there's something for the next ANE thriller. But the point is that
                                                "reasonable explanations" aren't evidence. They are what we use to
                                                bridge the gaps where there isn't any evidence.


                                                Bob Whiting
                                                whiting@...
                                              • Kevin P. Edgecomb
                                                ... KPE writes: You should publish this as The DUB.SAR Code and become a wealthy benefactor to impoverished Assyriology departments throughout the world.
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Mar 1, 2006
                                                  Bob Whiting wrote:
                                                  > However, if you require a "reasonable explanation" for the missing KI,
                                                  > try this:
                                                  >
                                                  > The scribe was part of an espionage ring sending information
                                                  > to the Egyptian chancery and the message was conveyed by the missing
                                                  > signs in the text. The recipient had to note what signs were missing
                                                  > and then combine them correctly to interpret the message. The missing
                                                  > KI in line 26 and the missing URU in line 61 indicate that the writer
                                                  > was sending information about some city, but since portions of the
                                                  > tablet are destroyed we'll probably never be able to reconstruct the
                                                  > full message.

                                                  KPE writes:

                                                  You should publish this as "The DUB.SAR Code" and become a wealthy benefactor to impoverished Assyriology departments throughout the world.

                                                  Regards,
                                                  Kevin P. Edgecomb
                                                  Berkeley, California
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