Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [ANE-2] Mesopotamian sports

Expand Messages
  • Martin Shields
    IIRC the instigation for Enkidu s descent into the netherworld in the Sumerian poem Gilgamesh and the Netherworld (part of which appears in adapted form on
    Message 1 of 64 , Dec 6, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      IIRC the instigation for Enkidu's descent into the netherworld in the
      Sumerian poem "Gilgamesh and the Netherworld" (part of which appears
      in adapted form on tablet XII of the Gilgamesh Epic), is the loss of
      some piece of sporting equipment (crudely put) down a hole. I don't
      think there's much information on exactly what they were playing, but
      it you might find discussion of the text leads to further information
      regarding Mesopotamian sports.

      Regards,

      Martin Shields.

      On 06/12/2006, at 5:16 PM, Mark Anthony Phelps wrote:

      > Among the articles I am writing for Facts on File's Encyclopedia of
      > Ancient History is one on Mesopotamian sports. I have found virtually
      > nothing, and would appreciate any help anyone could throw my way.
      > Thanks in advance for your time.
    • Ross Sinclair Caldwell
      George, I accept your apology. Thank you. I do hope someone with an ear of those responsible for this version will correct it. My efforts have so far met with
      Message 64 of 64 , Dec 15, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        George,

        I accept your apology. Thank you.

        I do hope someone with an ear of those responsible for this version will
        correct it. My efforts have so far met with silence.

        Ross G.R. Caldwell


        >From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...>
        >Reply-To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: Re: NRSV Hebrew inadequacy Re: SV: [ANE-2] Re: Mesopotamian sports
        >Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2006 10:59:28 -0800 (PST)
        >
        >Ross,
        >
        >In reading Robert Whiting's post below, I came to realize that I had only
        >looked at the end of the verse where you perceived there to be a problem in
        >the NRSV translation. If I had done the smart thing and read the entire
        >verse I would have realized as was pointed out in his post that there is a
        >parallelismus membrorum here. I was reluctant to fault the translators of
        >the NRSV since I really thought better of their abilities. You were,
        >however, correct that the word is not translated. I apologize.
        >
        >george
        >gfsomsel
        >_________
        >
        >
        >
        >----- Original Message ----
        >From: Robert Whiting <whiting@...>
        >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        >Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 8:19:36 AM
        >Subject: NRSV Hebrew inadequacy Re: SV: [ANE-2] Re: Mesopotamian sports
        >
        >--- In ANE-2@yahoogroups. com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@.. .> wrote:
        > >
        > > I see you don't really understand Hebrew so I will not debate the
        >issue with you. Suffice it to say that you are incorrect.
        > >
        > > george
        > > gfsomsel
        > > _________
        >
        >George, your obtuseness here is truly monumental.
        >
        >Since Hebrew isn't Coptic, you may be more comfortable with the LXX
        >translation of the passage:
        >
        >empisteusate en kurio: theo: umo:n kai empisteuthe:sesthe
        >empisteusate en profe:te: autou kai euodo:the:seste
        >
        >Please note the paralleism in these two phrases (paralleism is a
        >frequent rhetorical device in the Hebrew Bible):
        >
        >Believe in X and you will Y
        >Believe in Z and you will A
        >
        >In the second phrase A is eudo:the:seste can only be translated "you
        >will prosper", "you will succeed" or possibly "you will have a good
        >journey". In Heberw the A is tsalach which in the hiphil means
        >"prosper". In neither case can this meaning be hidden behind anything
        >else in the passage.
        >
        >Please do not speak of anyone else not understanding Hebrew unless you
        >want to include the translators of the Septuagint.
        >
        >Bob Whiting
        >whiting@... .fi
        >
        > >
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message ----
        > > From: Ross Sinclair Caldwell <belmurru@.. .>
        > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
        > > Sent: Friday, December 15, 2006 3:28:18 AM
        > > Subject: Re: NRSV Hebrew inadequacy Re: SV: [ANE-2] Re: Mesopotamian
        >sports
        > >
        > > I think you have yourself confused with the three "amens" in this
        >verse.
        > > "...and you will be established" is the second one. The third one
        >starts the
        > > next clause (or sentence), and is not omitted by the NRSV.
        >"ve-hatzliyxu" ,
        > > "and you will prosper", is omitted from translation.
        > >
        > > Look -
        > >
        > > ha'aminu ba-YHVH eloheyxem ve-te'amenu,
        > > ha'aminu bi-naviy'ayv ve-hatzliyxu
        > >
        > > RSV -
        > > "Believe in the Lord your God, and you will be established;
        > > believe his prophets, and you will succeed".
        > >
        > > KJV -
        > > "Believe in the Lord your God, so shall ye be established;
        > > believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper."
        > >
        > > NRSV -
        > > "Believe in the Lord your God and you will be established;
        > > believe his prophets."
        > >
        > > It's not my opinion, it's simply a fact. Compare it for yourself -
        >unless the error has been corrected in the NRSV in the last 10 years,
        >it's still there.
        > >
        > > Ross
        > > Ross Caldwell
        > >
        > > >From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel@yahoo. com>
        > > >Reply-To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
        > > >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
        > > >Subject: Re: NRSV Hebrew inadequacy Re: SV: [ANE-2] Re:
        >Mesopotamian sports
        > > >Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 19:15:52 -0800 (PST)
        > > >
        > > >No, it is not a rendering of W:T")fM"NW. -- that is "Believe" as in
        > > >"Believe in the Lord your God." The following Ha):aMiYNW. is from
        >the same
        > > >root and is rendered by "believe" as in "believe his prophets."
        >"you will
        > > >be established" is a rendering of W:HaC:LiYXW. which you though was
        > > >omitted. I will grant that "establish" is not the term I would have
        > > >chosen, and I think its choice necessitated transforming it into a
        >passive
        > > >when in the Hebrew it is an active, but it is not omitted nor does it
        > > >particulary misrepresent the Hebrew.
        > > >
        > > >george
        > > >gfsomsel
        > > >_________
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >----- Original Message ----
        > > >From: Ross Sinclair Caldwell <belmurru@hotmail. com>
        > > >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
        > > >Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 4:48:26 PM
        > > >Subject: Re: NRSV Hebrew inadequacy Re: SV: [ANE-2] Re:
        >Mesopotamian sports
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > >From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel@yahoo. com>
        > > > >>
        > > > >And what do you suppose "you will be established" translates?
        > > > >
        > > > >george
        > > > >gfsomsel
        > > >
        > > >ummm... ve-Te'aMeNV?
        > > >
        > > >Are you looking at the NRSV, compared to both the Hebrew and other
        > > >translations?
        > > >
        > > >The NRSV, in each of the four editions I have, *lacks* a
        >translation for
        > > >the
        > > >last Hebrew word in this verse. It is present in every other Bible
        >version
        > > >I
        > > >have, in any language. There is nothing to dispute - it is simply
        >sloppy
        > > >publishing. I cannot presume the translators omitted it.
        > > >
        > > >Ross
        > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >----- Original Message ----
        > > > >From: Ross Sinclair Caldwell <belmurru@hotmail. com>
        > > > >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. com
        > > > >Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 12:57:24 PM
        > > > >Subject: NRSV Hebrew inadequacy Re: SV: [ANE-2] Re: Mesopotamian
        >sports
        > > > >
        > > > >An error in the NRSV that has never been corrected (AFAIK) occurs
        >in 2
        > > > >Chronicles 20:20. The translators omit the final word
        >ve-HaTzLYHV, which
        > > > >the
        > > > >KJV for instance translates "and so ye shall prosper."
        > > > >
        > > > >The apparatus in the BHS makes no mention of any controversy
        >regarding
        > > >this
        > > > >word in the tradition, and of course it completes the parallelism
        >in the
        > > > >verse. It is clearly a sloppy oversight.
        > > > >
        > > > >I own four editions of the NRSV, and all of them omit the word.
        > > > >
        > > > >Ross G.R. Caldwell
        >
        >
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >

        _________________________________________________________________
        MSN Messenger: appels gratuits de PC à PC !
        http://www.msn.fr/newhotmail/Default.asp?Ath=f
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.