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Re: weavers

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  • Marc Cooper
    I would just add that while women seem to be the weavers in ED III and Sargonic Mesopotamia, female supervisors do appear in the tablets, though in Ur III and
    Message 1 of 30 , Dec 4, 2006
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      I would just add that while women seem to be the weavers in ED III
      and Sargonic Mesopotamia, female supervisors do appear in the
      tablets, though in Ur III and afterwards supervisors were always
      male to my knowledge.

      Marc Cooper
      Missouri State University

      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Robert M Whiting <whiting@...> wrote:
      >
      > On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, victor avigdor hurowitz wrote:
      >
      > > you and Liz might be interested in S. Zawadaski, Garments of the
      > > Gods. Studies on the Textile Industry and the Pantheon of Sippar
      according
      > > to the Texts from the Ebabbar Archive, OBO 218, Fribourg,
      Goettingen 2006
      > > Victor
      > > BGU
      >
      > For Mesopotamia in the Ur III period, see also, in general, H.
      Waetzoldt,
      > Untersuchungung zur neusumerischen Textilindustrie (Rome 1972),
      and, in
      > specific, A. Uchitel, "Women at Work: Weavers of Lagash and
      Spinners of
      > San Luis Gonzaga" in S. Parpola and R. Whiting (eds.) Sex and
      Gender in
      > the Ancient Near East, CRRAI 47 (Helsinki, 2002), 621-31.
      >
      > George pretty much has it right. Women did most of the work of
      weaving
      > and men did the supervision.
      >
      > Bob Whiting
      > whiting@...
      >
      > >
      > > On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, George F Somsel wrote:
      > >
      > > > Large numbers of women of the lower social classes were
      employed in
      > > > temple and palace workshops. Some were free, many slaves. Here
      too
      > > > they worked in traditional feminine occupations, in the
      kitchen as
      > > > cooks, pastry makers, and menials; in the textile industry as
      spinners
      > > > and weavers. Usually all were under the supervision of men.
      Free women
      > > > might have brought their children with them. Women of the
      poorer
      > > > classes must have helped their husbands in whatever occupation
      they
      > > > were in, for there was no sequestering of women. Women might
      also have
      > > > worked in various agricultural jobs in palace and temple
      fields and
      > > > with animals.
      > > >
      > > > Freedman, D. N. (1996, c1992). The Anchor Bible Dictionary
      (6:949).
      > > > New York: Doubleday.
      > > >
      > > > This would seem to indicate that in the ANE women may have
      done the
      > > > work but the supervision was male. Perhaps this is so with
      regard to
      > > > weaving, but I recall a passage in the OT which might call
      this into
      > > > question (not simply on the basis of grammatical gender). In
      1 Sam
      > > > 17.7 it states regarding the accoutrements of Goliath
      > > >
      > > > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver¢s beam, and his spear¢
      s head
      > > > weighed six hundred shekels of iron; and his shield-bearer
      went before
      > > > him.
      > > >
      > > > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (1 Sa
      17:7).
      > > > Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
      > > >
      > > > The implication of this is that a weaver's beam was
      significantly
      > > > larger and heavier than the normal spear shaft. Such
      a "weaver's
      > > > beam" would be a significant implement for any average woman
      to handle
      > > > (though I've known a few who would be up to the task). Of
      course, in
      > > > the account of the construction of the tabernacle, its work is
      > > > attributed to two men, Bezalel and Oholiab.
      > > >
      > > > george
      > > > gfsomsel
      >
    • Andrew Fincke
      Good point, George. Horner already saw this in David Loved Jonathan, 1977, though I don t have the specific page reference on hand. The curse on Joab s house
      Message 2 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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        Good point, George. Horner already saw this in David Loved Jonathan, 1977, though I don't have the specific page reference on hand. The curse on Joab's house is misplaced - the target is rather Saul, who fell by the sword, that is his own. The holder of the spindle is Jonathan - he "held" the spindle, David's, in their erotic act. Tod Linafelt gave a nice paper at SBL showing how the whole lament in 2 Sameul 1 is meant sarcastically - specifically verse 22 praising Saul's sword and Jonathan's bow as signs of their "heroism". Maybe somebody can help me with the part about the leprosy at 3:29, The "lacking bread" has a parallel in the curse at 1 Samuel 1:36.
        Andrew Fincke

        George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
        Thanks for that. I don't know how I missed it when I looked it up. It seems there are only two instances of this word. Other apparent instances are actually of a homonym deriving from a different source. It would seem that your judgment that handling a spindle was considered a curse for a man is based on 2 Sam 3.29

        29May [the guilt] fall upon the head of Joab and all his father’s house. May the house of Joab never be without someone suffering from a discharge or an eruption, or a male who handles the spindle, or one slain by the sword, or one lacking bread.”—

        Jewish Publication Society. (1997, c1985). Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures : A new translation of the Holy Scriptures according to the traditional Hebrew text. Title facing t.p.: Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim = Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim. (2 Sa 3:29). Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society.

        That is a passage I had nearly forgotten. It probably does have that implication.

        george
        gfsomsel
        _________
      • George F Somsel
        The statement that David loved Jonathan does NOT necessarily imply a homosexual relationship as you have implied on numerous occasions. george gfsomsel ...
        Message 3 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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          The statement that David loved Jonathan does NOT necessarily imply a homosexual relationship as you have implied on numerous occasions.

          george
          gfsomsel
          _________



          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Andrew Fincke <finckean@...>
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 7:48:13 AM
          Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers


          Good point, George. Horner already saw this in David Loved Jonathan, 1977, though I don't have the specific page reference on hand. The curse on Joab's house is misplaced - the target is rather Saul, who fell by the sword, that is his own. The holder of the spindle is Jonathan - he "held" the spindle, David's, in their erotic act. Tod Linafelt gave a nice paper at SBL showing how the whole lament in 2 Sameul 1 is meant sarcastically - specifically verse 22 praising Saul's sword and Jonathan's bow as signs of their "heroism". Maybe somebody can help me with the part about the leprosy at 3:29, The "lacking bread" has a parallel in the curse at 1 Samuel 1:36.
          Andrew Fincke

          George F Somsel <gfsomsel@yahoo. com> wrote:
          Thanks for that. I don't know how I missed it when I looked it up. It seems there are only two instances of this word. Other apparent instances are actually of a homonym deriving from a different source. It would seem that your judgment that handling a spindle was considered a curse for a man is based on 2 Sam 3.29

          29May [the guilt] fall upon the head of Joab and all his father���s house. May the house of Joab never be without someone suffering from a discharge or an eruption, or a male who handles the spindle, or one slain by the sword, or one lacking bread.�� ���

          Jewish Publication Society. (1997, c1985). Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures : A new translation of the Holy Scriptures according to the traditional Hebrew text. Title facing t.p.: Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim = Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim. (2 Sa 3:29). Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society.

          That is a passage I had nearly forgotten. It probably does have that implication.

          george
          gfsomsel
          _________






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        • Jim West
          ... Not only does it not necessarily connote such a relationship- but only someone looking for evidence of such a relationship could find it there. Best Jim
          Message 4 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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            George F Somsel wrote:
            > The statement that David loved Jonathan does NOT necessarily imply a homosexual relationship as you have implied on numerous occasions.
            >
            > george
            > gfsomsel
            > _________

            Not only does it not "necessarily" connote such a relationship- but only
            someone looking for evidence of such a relationship could find it there.

            Best

            Jim



            --
            Jim West, ThD

            http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
            http://drjimwest.wordpress.com -- Weblog
          • Andrew Fincke
            But that is the point of Horner s book. The exact reference is Tom Horner, Jonathan Loved David, Philadelphia (Westminster), 1978, p. 38. Linafelt s point at
            Message 5 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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              But that is the point of Horner's book. The exact reference is Tom Horner, Jonathan Loved David, Philadelphia (Westminster), 1978, p. 38. Linafelt's point at SBL was that Saul's sword in the lament (2 Samuel 1:22), far from being the implement of a hero, was the tool in his suicide, and that Jonathan's bow was key to his renouncing his claim to the throne. With it he shot the arrows that warned David to flee execution - 1 Samuel 20:35ff. See Ackerman's, When Heroes Love and especially Nardelli's new book when it comes out.
              Andrew Fincke

              George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
              The statement that David loved Jonathan does NOT necessarily imply a homosexual relationship as you have implied on numerous occasions.

              george
              gfsomsel
              _________



              ----- Original Message ----
              From: Andrew Fincke
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 7:48:13 AM
              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers


              Good point, George. Horner already saw this in David Loved Jonathan, 1977, though I don't have the specific page reference on hand. The curse on Joab's house is misplaced - the target is rather Saul, who fell by the sword, that is his own. The holder of the spindle is Jonathan - he "held" the spindle, David's, in their erotic act. Tod Linafelt gave a nice paper at SBL showing how the whole lament in 2 Sameul 1 is meant sarcastically - specifically verse 22 praising Saul's sword and Jonathan's bow as signs of their "heroism". Maybe somebody can help me with the part about the leprosy at 3:29, The "lacking bread" has a parallel in the curse at 1 Samuel 1:36.
              Andrew Fincke

              George F Somsel wrote:
              Thanks for that. I don't know how I missed it when I looked it up. It seems there are only two instances of this word. Other apparent instances are actually of a homonym deriving from a different source. It would seem that your judgment that handling a spindle was considered a curse for a man is based on 2 Sam 3.29

              29May [the guilt] fall upon the head of Joab and all his father’s house. May the house of Joab never be without someone suffering from a discharge or an eruption, or a male who handles the spindle, or one slain by the sword, or one lacking bread.†—

              Jewish Publication Society. (1997, c1985). Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures : A new translation of the Holy Scriptures according to the traditional Hebrew text. Title facing t.p.: Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim = Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim. (2 Sa 3:29). Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society.

              That is a passage I had nearly forgotten. It probably does have that implication.

              george
              gfsomsel
              _________






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            • Niels Peter Lemche
              ... to ... execution - 1 Samuel 20:35ff. See Ackerman s, When Heroes Love and especially ... Maybe somebody here read too much Homer, and too little ANE
              Message 6 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                > But that is the point of Horner's book. The exact reference is Tom
                > Horner, Jonathan Loved David, Philadelphia (Westminster), 1978, p. 38.

                > Linafelt's point at SBL was that Saul's sword in the lament (2 Samuel
                > 1:22), far from being the implement of a hero, was the tool in his
                > suicide, and that Jonathan's bow was key to his renouncing his claim
                to
                > the throne. With it he shot the arrows that warned David to flee
                execution > - 1 Samuel >20:35ff. See Ackerman's, When Heroes Love and
                especially
                > Nardelli's new >book when it comes out.
                > Andrew Fincke



                Maybe somebody here read too much Homer, and too little ANE stuff. I
                guess that some here will think of similar homosexual motives in
                Gilgamesh. Homosexuality is mentioned here and there in the OT but they
                simply don't like it. So what do we have: anything except a modern and
                very colored reading of biblical texts? I guess that the same attitude
                will turn most military history into a history of homosexuality, and we
                are in no need of another Keagan to tell us that history.

                Finally, and here we are again again again: on what background are we
                discussing: a narrative and a dubious interpretation of the narrative,
                or historical persons. Since we should only discuss the first thing
                here, it must be narrative. We cannot use this text to say that David
                was gay. WSE can discuss whether or not a novelist made him that. I
                think that this novelist mostly show him as a friend of nice girls (or
                rather women, as the narrative have him suing mostly married
                women--Abigail, Batsheba, and perhaps even Micha).

                Niels Peter Lemche

                PS: a piece Paper never objects to what is written on it.
              • Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
                Those unconvinced by the erotic dimension of David s and Jonathan s aheb in 1 Sam 18 ff. have to explain us how it is possible for a simple bind of friendship
                Message 7 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                  Those unconvinced by the erotic dimension of David's and Jonathan's 'aheb in 1 Sam 18 ff. have to explain us how it is possible for a simple bind of friendship or homosociality to contain so many discrepancies with the Biblical norms and to verge so often on the erotic without incurring any blame and being praised as a wonder and a model by the subsequent tradition (the Liber Antiquitatum Biblicarum, which devotes its chap. 62 to the dealings of the two men, and the Targum of Jonathan). For example, how is it possible that their three successive berîts entail both unique or extraordinary phraseology (e.g. in 1 Sam 20:3, David makes an oath by the life of Yahweh and the life of the soul of Jonathan ; in 1 Sam 20:8, their bind is a yhwh berît) and a shifting in their status qua covenant partners, with this consequence that it is hardly feasible to tell who is the superior and who the vassal ? Better a difficult conclusion which tries to explain the facts than a conventional one which ignores everything which is unclear.

                  J.-F. Nardelli.

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Jim West
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 3:32 PM
                  Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers



                  Not only does it not "necessarily" connote such a relationship- but only
                  someone looking for evidence of such a relationship could find it there.

                  Best

                  Jim

                  --
                  Jim West, ThD
                • Peter T. Daniels
                  Nor, of course, is that interpretation excluded. -- Peter T. Daniels grammatim@verizon.net ... From: George F Somsel To:
                  Message 8 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                    Nor, of course, is that interpretation excluded.

                    --
                    Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...



                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...>
                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 8:44:28 AM
                    Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers


                    The statement that David loved Jonathan does NOT necessarily imply a homosexual relationship as you have implied on numerous occasions.

                    george
                    gfsomsel
                    _________

                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: Andrew Fincke <finckean@...>
                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 7:48:13 AM
                    Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers

                    Good point, George. Horner already saw this in David Loved Jonathan, 1977, though I don't have the specific page reference on hand. The curse on Joab's house is misplaced - the target is rather Saul, who fell by the sword, that is his own. The holder of the spindle is Jonathan - he "held" the spindle, David's, in their erotic act. Tod Linafelt gave a nice paper at SBL showing how the whole lament in 2 Sameul 1 is meant sarcastically - specifically verse 22 praising Saul's sword and Jonathan's bow as signs of their "heroism". Maybe somebody can help me with the part about the leprosy at 3:29, The "lacking bread" has a parallel in the curse at 1 Samuel 1:36.
                    Andrew Fincke

                    George F Somsel <gfsomsel@yahoo. com> wrote:
                    Thanks for that. I don't know how I missed it when I looked it up. It seems there are only two instances of this word. Other apparent instances are actually of a homonym deriving from a different source. It would seem that your judgment that handling a spindle was considered a curse for a man is based on 2 Sam 3.29

                    29May [the guilt] fall upon the head of Joab and all his father���s house. May the house of Joab never be without someone suffering from a discharge or an eruption, or a male who handles the spindle, or one slain by the sword, or one lacking bread.�� ���

                    Jewish Publication Society. (1997, c1985). Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures : A new translation of the Holy Scriptures according to the traditional Hebrew text. Title facing t.p.: Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim = Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim. (2 Sa 3:29). Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society.

                    That is a passage I had nearly forgotten. It probably does have that implication.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Kevin P. Edgecomb
                    ... KP Edgecomb writes: But this is depicted not as just a homosocial or homosexual relationship between two private citizens, but between the heir assumptive
                    Message 9 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                      Jean-Fabrice Nardelli wrote:
                      > Those unconvinced by the erotic dimension of David's and Jonathan's 'aheb in 1 Sam 18 ff. have to explain us how it is possible for a simple bind of friendship or homosociality to contain so many discrepancies with the Biblical norms [snip]

                      KP Edgecomb writes:
                      But this is depicted not as just a homosocial or homosexual relationship between two private citizens, but between the heir assumptive and a later usurper, in a wider narrative context in which David's usurpation of the monarchy, taking it from the line of Saul via Jonathan and sons, is being justified. The rational gymnastics of such ex post facto justifications and their relationship to the events distorted by such justifications often simply don't correlate easily, particularly when it is the usurpers produce the narrative evidence. Witness Darius the Great's Behistun inscriptions: something unusual went on, but the precise details of his coup and usurpation are overlaid with a patriotic and religious sheen.

                      Regardless, no sexual acts are described between the two, despite the eisegesis. The gay nineties are over. We can move on.

                      Regards,
                      Kevin P. Edgecomb
                      Berkeley, California
                    • Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
                      Precisely : Ackerman went at great lengths to demonstrate that there is an erotic apologetic in the latter part of Sam : no man sexually submissive to
                      Message 10 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                        Precisely : Ackerman went at great lengths to demonstrate that there is an "erotic apologetic" in the latter part of Sam : no man sexually submissive to another was qualified to be king, and so David was legitimate enough to succeed to Saul. Thus, by "loving" David, Jonathan may well have been pictured by the narrator (echoeing no doubt some Davidic propaganda) as having renounced his masculinity and every right he possessed to inherit the throne of his father. I am not convinced that this is the right explanation, but it throws much light on a narrative which is crabbed, elliptic and obscure, and as such no one can afford to ignore it as if it were mere hariolations.

                        If 1 Sam 18 ff. were as crystal-clear and straigthforward as some want to have it, why on earth burden its account of David's rise to the power with a covenant with Jonathan whose terms are exceedingly difficult to understand and a whole complex of affective notations between the heir and its putative rival, notations wich are so far from being devoid of sensuous overtones that they disrupt the well-established societal order of ancient Israel ? These pointers make a male, Jonathan, seem more important to David than his own wife and the one woman in the whole of the Bible who is described as having desired her husband, Michol : cui bono ?

                        It is not by shutting one's eyes to interpretative difficulties that they are likely to disappear. To charge with dragging-in homosexuality and reading ancient texts through modern lens and prejudices interpreters who tentatively introduce a controlled amount of male-male affect in the affair of David with Jonathan because they consider that this hypothesis and only it resolves otherwise aporetic questions, is sheer nonsense. Homosexuality in the Old Testament remains as problematic as ever ; like it is the case for Homer (experto credite), it requires observation, more observation and yet more observation, certainly not apodictic proclamations pro or cons.

                        J.-F. Nardelli.

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Kevin P. Edgecomb
                        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 9:09 PM
                        Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers



                        The rational gymnastics of such ex post facto justifications and their relationship to the events distorted by such justifications often simply don't correlate easily, particularly when it is the usurpers produce the narrative evidence.
                      • Peter T. Daniels
                        NPL -- note that they re talking about H o r n e r (a modern American) and not H o m e r. Screen fonts are sometimes not all they need to be. -- Peter T.
                        Message 11 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                          NPL -- note that they're talking about H o r n e r (a modern American) and not H o m e r.

                          Screen fonts are sometimes not all they need to be.
                          --
                          Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...

                          ----- Original Message ----
                          From: Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...>
                          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 11:17:11 AM
                          Subject: SV: [ANE-2] weavers

                          > But that is the point of Horner's book. The exact reference is Tom
                          > Horner, Jonathan Loved David, Philadelphia (Westminster) , 1978, p. 38.

                          > Linafelt's point at SBL was that Saul's sword in the lament (2 Samuel
                          > 1:22), far from being the implement of a hero, was the tool in his
                          > suicide, and that Jonathan's bow was key to his renouncing his claim
                          to
                          > the throne. With it he shot the arrows that warned David to flee
                          execution > - 1 Samuel >20:35ff. See Ackerman's, When Heroes Love and
                          especially
                          > Nardelli's new >book when it comes out.
                          > Andrew Fincke

                          Maybe somebody here read too much Homer, and too little ANE stuff. I
                          guess that some here will think of similar homosexual motives in
                          Gilgamesh. Homosexuality is mentioned here and there in the OT but they
                          simply don't like it. So what do we have: anything except a modern and
                          very colored reading of biblical texts? I guess that the same attitude
                          will turn most military history into a history of homosexuality, and we
                          are in no need of another Keagan to tell us that history.

                          Finally, and here we are again again again: on what background are we
                          discussing: a narrative and a dubious interpretation of the narrative,
                          or historical persons. Since we should only discuss the first thing
                          here, it must be narrative. We cannot use this text to say that David
                          was gay. WSE can discuss whether or not a novelist made him that. I
                          think that this novelist mostly show him as a friend of nice girls (or
                          rather women, as the narrative have him suing mostly married
                          women--Abigail, Batsheba, and perhaps even Micha).

                          Niels Peter Lemche

                          PS: a piece Paper never objects to what is written on it.
                        • Niels Peter Lemche
                          Well, if you want it so, no problem, and you might even be cited in support of the idea nourished by the late Frederick Cryer of comparing the story of David
                          Message 12 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                            Well, if you want it so, no problem, and you might even be cited in
                            support of the idea nourished by the late Frederick Cryer of comparing
                            the story of David with the Alexander-novel. This could easily have been
                            a problem, if the author wrote his David-novel in the Hellenistic
                            Period. However, if you move into the field of historicity, I have
                            nothing more to say.

                            So let's stay with the novel, the only thing we have for sure. David has
                            been accused for many "crimes", the murder of Abner, Ishbaal, not really
                            Saul, and of stealing other men's wives. So why not of homosexuality
                            otherwise forbidden in the HB.

                            The verb "to love", 'ahab, may have this connotation. However, it is
                            also covenant language or patronage language as shown many years ago by
                            Herbert Huffmon. So the sequence may only indicate that in their
                            covenantal relationship, David and Jonathan were bound by the "love"
                            demanded by the characters entering the covenant. The client is demanded
                            to "love" his patron. Well, I suppose that religion demands the believer
                            to "love" his divine lord as well.

                            There are others explanations for the plot making Michal loving David,
                            among them the eventuality that their relationship was rather "tricky",
                            when David demanded her to divorce her husband, and later let her
                            barren. It might be difficult to see traces of apologies for
                            homosexuality here. It seems that the crime is of a different character.

                            I hope that this will be deemed biased, because then, some people may
                            have a problem demanding the text to say exactly what they wish it to
                            say.


                            Niels Peter Lemche
                          • Niels Peter Lemche
                            Great! It is getting late over here, so I bid you good night. However, the relationship between Achilleus and Patroklos (or is it Patrokles--it is too late to
                            Message 13 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                              Great! It is getting late over here, so I bid you good night.

                              However, the relationship between Achilleus and Patroklos (or is it Patrokles--it is too late to get to my Iliad) may be a good comparison, and it is probably time for our Mesopotamian friends to make their comment on the relationship between Gilgamesh and Enkidu.

                              Niels Peter Lemche


                              -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                              Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Peter T. Daniels
                              Sendt: 6. december 2006 00:06
                              Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                              Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] weavers

                              NPL -- note that they're talking about H o r n e r (a modern American) and not H o m e r.

                              Screen fonts are sometimes not all they need to be.
                              --
                              Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
                            • Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
                              Niels, you can t stick to the notion that the client is demanded to love his patron , because this would be neither a hesed nor a berît, but a loyalty
                              Message 14 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                                Niels, you can't stick to the notion that "the client is demanded to 'love' his patron", because this would be neither a hesed nor a berît, but a loyalty treaty, which is quite another thing (an adjuration). In the loyalty treaty, the weaker part binds himself willingly to the stronger one by making an oath of loyalty, that is, unconditional obedience ; then he will "love" his patron or suzerain more than his own life and family. If you're right, then the Samuel narrator went badly astray in calling berît such a proclamation of Jonathan vis-à-vis David ; this seems impossible to me. Furthermore, despite his victory over Goliath, David is still far outranked by Jonathan at the precise moment when, in 1 Sam 18:3, Saul's son, being the crown prince (to put the matter anachronically), decides to lower himself down and bind himself to the son of Jesse "because he loved him like his own soul". Berîts seldom wrap themselves up in such a sentimental language.

                                Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
                              • Lampros F. Kallenos
                                ... The way to handle a spear is different from the way to handle a weaver s beam. You handle a spear by putting your fingers around it, and then you also have
                                Message 15 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                                  > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver’s beam
                                  > ... ...
                                  > The implication of this is that a weaver's beam was
                                  > significantly larger and heavier than the normal spear shaft.
                                  > Such a "weaver's beam" would be a significant implement for
                                  > any average woman to handle.
                                  >
                                  > gfsomsel


                                  The way to handle a spear is different from the way to handle a
                                  weaver's beam.

                                  You handle a spear by putting your fingers around it, and then
                                  you also have to lift and throw it. But a weaver's beam is about
                                  15-20 centimeters (six inches) long, and only has to be thrown or
                                  pushed among the threads to the other side of the weaving
                                  installation.

                                  So, I think what this phrase

                                  > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver’s beam

                                  intends to is only a reference to the diameter of the shaft, not
                                  to its weight. The weight is commented in the next phrase

                                  > his spear’s head weighed six hundred shekels of iron

                                  And so, a woman could be a weaver.


                                  .
                                  _______________________
                                  Lampros F. Kallenos "...EKANAN OISTRO THS ZWHS
                                  Idalion, Lefkosia TO FOBO TOU QANATOU"
                                  Kypros
                                  --
                                • David Lorton
                                  ... And how often have we seen wording along the lines of click on this link for more information . . . in sans serif type . . . with very tight letter
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                                    Peter T. Daniels wrote:
                                    >
                                    > NPL -- note that they're talking about H o r n e r (a modern American) and not H o m e r.
                                    >
                                    > Screen fonts are sometimes not all they need to be.
                                    > --
                                    > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...

                                    And how often have we seen wording along the lines of "click on this
                                    link for more information" . . . in sans serif type . . . with very
                                    tight letter spacing.

                                    A propos of this topic of homosexual weavers (or kings, or whoever) . .
                                    . is it really appropriate, on this scholarly list, for people to be
                                    interpreting biblical texts solely on the basis of English-language
                                    translations? And with no citations of relevant literature in any of
                                    the major languages of scholarship in our fields?

                                    David Lorton
                                    Baltimore, MD
                                  • George F Somsel
                                    That would seem to solve a difficulty in reconciling the ABD article stating that women did the weaving with the physical realities that they would not be able
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                                      That would seem to solve a difficulty in reconciling the ABD article stating that women did the weaving with the physical realities that they would not be able to handle something so heavy as what Goliath's spear was represented as being.

                                      george
                                      gfsomsel
                                      _________



                                      ----- Original Message ----
                                      From: Lampros F. Kallenos <xalkinos@...>
                                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 8:04:28 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers


                                      > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver�s beam
                                      > ... ...
                                      > The implication of this is that a weaver's beam was
                                      > significantly larger and heavier than the normal spear shaft.
                                      > Such a "weaver's beam" would be a significant implement for
                                      > any average woman to handle.
                                      >
                                      > gfsomsel


                                      The way to handle a spear is different from the way to handle a
                                      weaver's beam.

                                      You handle a spear by putting your fingers around it, and then
                                      you also have to lift and throw it. But a weaver's beam is about
                                      15-20 centimeters (six inches) long, and only has to be thrown or
                                      pushed among the threads to the other side of the weaving
                                      installation.

                                      So, I think what this phrase

                                      > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver�s beam

                                      intends to is only a reference to the diameter of the shaft, not
                                      to its weight. The weight is commented in the next phrase

                                      > his spear�s head weighed six hundred shekels of iron

                                      And so, a woman could be a weaver.


                                      .
                                      _______________________
                                      Lampros F. Kallenos "...EKANAN OISTRO THS ZWHS
                                      Idalion, Lefkosia TO FOBO TOU QANATOU"
                                      Kypros
                                      --



                                      Yahoo! Groups Links





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                                    • goranson@duke.edu
                                      Two perhaps relevant books: Though this deals mainly with later times, it probably includes some earlier bibliography (and cf. some of her articles and reviews
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Dec 6, 2006
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                                        Two perhaps relevant books:

                                        Though this deals mainly with later times, it probably includes some earlier
                                        bibliography (and cf. some of her articles and reviews for debate on weaving
                                        gender issues):
                                        Spinning fantasies : rabbis, gender, and history /
                                        Miriam Peskowitz 1997
                                        English Book xiv, 249 p. ; 24 cm.
                                        Berkeley : University of California Press, ; ISBN: 0520208315
                                        0520209672 (pbk.)

                                        This one includes some more ancient material (in both senses) as well as at
                                        least some discussion of women weavers:
                                        Archéologie des textiles des origines au Ve siècle :
                                        actes du colloque de Lattes, octobre 1999 /
                                        Dominique Cardon; Michel Feugère 2000
                                        French Book 290 p., 4 p. of plates : ill. (some col.), maps ; 30 cm.
                                        Montagnac : M. Mergoil,

                                        though I returned it to interlibrary loan just days ago, and didn't
                                        read it all.
                                        By the way, I got it to copy "The textiles from Khirbet Qazone (Jordan)" by H.
                                        Granger-Taylor" p. 149-62 and 1 colour plate. Based of the dating of these
                                        Lisan cemetery textiles, it appears that this cemetery is (at least in this
                                        sample) later than the second temple Qumran burials. Though the two share some
                                        similarities, the two cemeteries differ in some other significant respects
                                        (e.g., besides dating, grave goods, and proportions of men, women, and
                                        children).

                                        best
                                        Stephen Goranson
                                        http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
                                      • Kevin P. Edgecomb
                                        Yigael Yadin in his Art of Warfare in Biblical Lands, 2:354-355, suggests the shaft of his spear like a weaver s beam in 1 Samuel 17.7 was rather to indicate
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Dec 6, 2006
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                                          Yigael Yadin in his Art of Warfare in Biblical Lands, 2:354-355, suggests
                                          the "shaft of his spear like a weaver's beam" in 1 Samuel 17.7 was rather to
                                          indicate that, like the "leash rod" of a loom, it possessed a cord wrapped
                                          around the shaft which created a short loop. The illustrations given are for
                                          a model of a primitve Greek loom, a drawing of a modern leash rod's loops,
                                          and a black figure kylix of a hoplite with precisely such a spear and his
                                          finger through the loop. The caption reads: "A typical Aegean javelin has a
                                          loop and cord wound round the shaft so that the weapon could be hurled a
                                          greater distance with greater stability by virtue of the resultant spin. The
                                          Greeks and Romans called such a javelin 'the loop.'"

                                          It's such a fine solution to the problem, that probably means it's wrong.

                                          Regards,
                                          Kevin P. Edgecomb
                                          Berkeley, California

                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                          > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On
                                          > Behalf Of George F Somsel
                                          > Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 8:40 PM
                                          > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers
                                          >
                                          > That would seem to solve a difficulty in reconciling the ABD
                                          > article stating that women did the weaving with the physical
                                          > realities that they would not be able to handle something so
                                          > heavy as what Goliath's spear was represented as being.
                                          >
                                          > george
                                          > gfsomsel
                                          > _________
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ----- Original Message ----
                                          > From: Lampros F. Kallenos <xalkinos@...>
                                          > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 8:04:28 PM
                                          > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver¢s beam ... ...
                                          > > The implication of this is that a weaver's beam was significantly
                                          > > larger and heavier than the normal spear shaft.
                                          > > Such a "weaver's beam" would be a significant implement for any
                                          > > average woman to handle.
                                          > >
                                          > > gfsomsel
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > The way to handle a spear is different from the way to handle
                                          > a weaver's beam.
                                          >
                                          > You handle a spear by putting your fingers around it, and
                                          > then you also have to lift and throw it. But a weaver's beam
                                          > is about 15-20 centimeters (six inches) long, and only has to
                                          > be thrown or pushed among the threads to the other side of
                                          > the weaving installation.
                                          >
                                          > So, I think what this phrase
                                          >
                                          > > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver¢s beam
                                          >
                                          > intends to is only a reference to the diameter of the shaft,
                                          > not to its weight. The weight is commented in the next phrase
                                          >
                                          > > his spear¢s head weighed six hundred shekels of iron
                                          >
                                          > And so, a woman could be a weaver.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > .
                                          > _______________________
                                          > Lampros F. Kallenos "...EKANAN OISTRO THS ZWHS
                                          > Idalion, Lefkosia TO FOBO TOU QANATOU"
                                          > Kypros
                                          > --
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ______________________________________________________________
                                          > ______________________
                                          > Cheap talk?
                                          > Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
                                          > http://voice.yahoo.com
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                        • Richard S. Ellis
                                          ... What you are thinking about is a shuttle, which I don t think anyone (in English) would refer to as a beam. If beam is a good translation, it is more
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Dec 6, 2006
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                                            Lampros F. Kallenos wrote:
                                            > > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver’s beam
                                            > > ... ...
                                            > > The implication of this is that a weaver's beam was
                                            > > significantly larger and heavier than the normal spear shaft.
                                            > > Such a "weaver's beam" would be a significant implement for
                                            > > any average woman to handle.
                                            > >
                                            > > gfsomsel
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > The way to handle a spear is different from the way to handle a
                                            > weaver's beam.
                                            >
                                            > You handle a spear by putting your fingers around it, and then
                                            > you also have to lift and throw it. But a weaver's beam is about
                                            > 15-20 centimeters (six inches) long, and only has to be thrown or
                                            > pushed among the threads to the other side of the weaving
                                            > installation.

                                            What you are thinking about is a shuttle, which I don't think anyone (in
                                            English) would refer to as a beam. If "beam" is a good translation, it
                                            is more likely to refer either to one of the two beams of a ground loom
                                            or of an upright loom, or to the warp beam of a warp-weighted loom. In
                                            any case the beam would not be moved while the loom was in use. For all
                                            this stuff you might refer to:

                                            Barber, Elizabeth J. W. 1990. Prehistoric Textiles: The Development of
                                            Cloth in the Neolithic and Bronze Ages with Special Reference to the
                                            Aegean. Princeton: Princeton University Press.

                                            Dick Ellis
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