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Re: [ANE-2] weavers

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  • George F Somsel
    Thanks for that. I don t know how I missed it when I looked it up. It seems there are only two instances of this word. Other apparent instances are actually
    Message 1 of 30 , Dec 4, 2006
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      Thanks for that. I don't know how I missed it when I looked it up. It seems there are only two instances of this word. Other apparent instances are actually of a homonym deriving from a different source. It would seem that your judgment that handling a spindle was considered a curse for a man is based on 2 Sam 3.29

      29May [the guilt] fall upon the head of Joab and all his father’s house. May the house of Joab never be without someone suffering from a discharge or an eruption, or a male who handles the spindle, or one slain by the sword, or one lacking bread.”—

      Jewish Publication Society. (1997, c1985). Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures : A new translation of the Holy Scriptures according to the traditional Hebrew text. Title facing t.p.: Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim = Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim. (2 Sa 3:29). Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society.

      That is a passage I had nearly forgotten. It probably does have that implication.

      george
      gfsomsel
      _________



      ----- Original Message ----
      From: victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@...>
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, December 4, 2006 3:14:55 PM
      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers


      the word for spindle is pe-lamed-kaf and NOT peh-lamed-het which means to
      split.

      The word for spinning in t.et-waw-heh
      The word for weaving is 'oreg
      re$-qof-mem implies embroidering
      there is also somthing called ho$eb which seems to be a type of weaving by
      which designs are put in the fabric.
      The woman spin raw material into thread while the men weave it into cloth,
      some of it with designs, either embroidered.
      I'm not a real expert in these matters but the individual terms express
      different activities in the cloth making process. The women who make
      battim for the asherah are doing oreg and not t.wh
      Best,
      Victor






      On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, George F Somsel wrote:

      > 30And Moses said to the Israelites: See, the Lord has singled out by name Bezalel, son of Uri son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. 31He has endowed him with a divine spirit of skill, ability, and knowledge in every kind of craft 32and has inspired him to make designs for work in gold, silver, and copper, 33to cut stones for setting and to carve wood—to work in every kind of designer’s craft—34and to give directions. He and Oholiab son of Ahisamach of the tribe of Dan 35have been endowed with the skill to do any work—of the carver, the designer, the embroiderer in blue, purple, crimson yarns, and in fine linen, and of the weaver—as workers in all crafts and as makers of designs.
      >
      > Jewish Publication Society. (1997, c1985). Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures : A new translation of the Holy Scriptures according to the traditional Hebrew text. Title facing t.p.: Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim = Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim. (Ex 35:30). Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society.
      >
      > I might mention that according to Acts St Paul was himself a tentmaker
      >
      > After this Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. 2 There he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to see them, 3 and, because he was of the same trade, he stayed with them, and they worked together—by trade they were tentmakers. 4 Every sabbath he would argue in the synagogue and would try to convince Jews and Greeks.
      >
      > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Ac 18:1). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
      >
      > Victor,
      >
      > Your rendering makes it seem that you are referring to a word Pe Lamed Kap, could it be Pe Lamed Het?
      >
      > george
      > gfsomsel
      > _________
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message ----
      > From: victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@...>
      > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Monday, December 4, 2006 1:15:38 PM
      > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers
      >
      > I haven't checked th ereferences, but here are some things of the top of
      > my head.
      > If you look in the tAbernacle pericope you will find that women are
      > spinners, while it is bezalel and oholiab who do the weaving. Also the
      > e$et hayil holds a pelek in her hand, and holding a
      > pelek is a curse on a man. What is the relationship between spinners and
      > weavers? Can weaving be a more skilled art than spinning? In general,
      > check out the relationship between rqm and t.wy
      >
      > Victor
      > BGU
      >
      > On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, Lisbeth S. Fried wrote:
      >
      > > Dear All,
      > > Most of the references to weavers in the OT (all but one) are in the masculine. Do I assume from this that most weaving was done by men? The other reference is to women weaving in the temple for Asherah. That phrase is paired with male prostitutes. Does that imply a reversal of roles, that men usually weave and women are usually prostitutes?
      > > Who did the weaving in the ANE?
      > > Thanks,
      > > Liz Fried
      > >
      >




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    • Marc Cooper
      I would just add that while women seem to be the weavers in ED III and Sargonic Mesopotamia, female supervisors do appear in the tablets, though in Ur III and
      Message 2 of 30 , Dec 4, 2006
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        I would just add that while women seem to be the weavers in ED III
        and Sargonic Mesopotamia, female supervisors do appear in the
        tablets, though in Ur III and afterwards supervisors were always
        male to my knowledge.

        Marc Cooper
        Missouri State University

        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Robert M Whiting <whiting@...> wrote:
        >
        > On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, victor avigdor hurowitz wrote:
        >
        > > you and Liz might be interested in S. Zawadaski, Garments of the
        > > Gods. Studies on the Textile Industry and the Pantheon of Sippar
        according
        > > to the Texts from the Ebabbar Archive, OBO 218, Fribourg,
        Goettingen 2006
        > > Victor
        > > BGU
        >
        > For Mesopotamia in the Ur III period, see also, in general, H.
        Waetzoldt,
        > Untersuchungung zur neusumerischen Textilindustrie (Rome 1972),
        and, in
        > specific, A. Uchitel, "Women at Work: Weavers of Lagash and
        Spinners of
        > San Luis Gonzaga" in S. Parpola and R. Whiting (eds.) Sex and
        Gender in
        > the Ancient Near East, CRRAI 47 (Helsinki, 2002), 621-31.
        >
        > George pretty much has it right. Women did most of the work of
        weaving
        > and men did the supervision.
        >
        > Bob Whiting
        > whiting@...
        >
        > >
        > > On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, George F Somsel wrote:
        > >
        > > > Large numbers of women of the lower social classes were
        employed in
        > > > temple and palace workshops. Some were free, many slaves. Here
        too
        > > > they worked in traditional feminine occupations, in the
        kitchen as
        > > > cooks, pastry makers, and menials; in the textile industry as
        spinners
        > > > and weavers. Usually all were under the supervision of men.
        Free women
        > > > might have brought their children with them. Women of the
        poorer
        > > > classes must have helped their husbands in whatever occupation
        they
        > > > were in, for there was no sequestering of women. Women might
        also have
        > > > worked in various agricultural jobs in palace and temple
        fields and
        > > > with animals.
        > > >
        > > > Freedman, D. N. (1996, c1992). The Anchor Bible Dictionary
        (6:949).
        > > > New York: Doubleday.
        > > >
        > > > This would seem to indicate that in the ANE women may have
        done the
        > > > work but the supervision was male. Perhaps this is so with
        regard to
        > > > weaving, but I recall a passage in the OT which might call
        this into
        > > > question (not simply on the basis of grammatical gender). In
        1 Sam
        > > > 17.7 it states regarding the accoutrements of Goliath
        > > >
        > > > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver¢s beam, and his spear¢
        s head
        > > > weighed six hundred shekels of iron; and his shield-bearer
        went before
        > > > him.
        > > >
        > > > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (1 Sa
        17:7).
        > > > Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
        > > >
        > > > The implication of this is that a weaver's beam was
        significantly
        > > > larger and heavier than the normal spear shaft. Such
        a "weaver's
        > > > beam" would be a significant implement for any average woman
        to handle
        > > > (though I've known a few who would be up to the task). Of
        course, in
        > > > the account of the construction of the tabernacle, its work is
        > > > attributed to two men, Bezalel and Oholiab.
        > > >
        > > > george
        > > > gfsomsel
        >
      • Andrew Fincke
        Good point, George. Horner already saw this in David Loved Jonathan, 1977, though I don t have the specific page reference on hand. The curse on Joab s house
        Message 3 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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          Good point, George. Horner already saw this in David Loved Jonathan, 1977, though I don't have the specific page reference on hand. The curse on Joab's house is misplaced - the target is rather Saul, who fell by the sword, that is his own. The holder of the spindle is Jonathan - he "held" the spindle, David's, in their erotic act. Tod Linafelt gave a nice paper at SBL showing how the whole lament in 2 Sameul 1 is meant sarcastically - specifically verse 22 praising Saul's sword and Jonathan's bow as signs of their "heroism". Maybe somebody can help me with the part about the leprosy at 3:29, The "lacking bread" has a parallel in the curse at 1 Samuel 1:36.
          Andrew Fincke

          George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
          Thanks for that. I don't know how I missed it when I looked it up. It seems there are only two instances of this word. Other apparent instances are actually of a homonym deriving from a different source. It would seem that your judgment that handling a spindle was considered a curse for a man is based on 2 Sam 3.29

          29May [the guilt] fall upon the head of Joab and all his father’s house. May the house of Joab never be without someone suffering from a discharge or an eruption, or a male who handles the spindle, or one slain by the sword, or one lacking bread.”—

          Jewish Publication Society. (1997, c1985). Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures : A new translation of the Holy Scriptures according to the traditional Hebrew text. Title facing t.p.: Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim = Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim. (2 Sa 3:29). Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society.

          That is a passage I had nearly forgotten. It probably does have that implication.

          george
          gfsomsel
          _________
        • George F Somsel
          The statement that David loved Jonathan does NOT necessarily imply a homosexual relationship as you have implied on numerous occasions. george gfsomsel ...
          Message 4 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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            The statement that David loved Jonathan does NOT necessarily imply a homosexual relationship as you have implied on numerous occasions.

            george
            gfsomsel
            _________



            ----- Original Message ----
            From: Andrew Fincke <finckean@...>
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 7:48:13 AM
            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers


            Good point, George. Horner already saw this in David Loved Jonathan, 1977, though I don't have the specific page reference on hand. The curse on Joab's house is misplaced - the target is rather Saul, who fell by the sword, that is his own. The holder of the spindle is Jonathan - he "held" the spindle, David's, in their erotic act. Tod Linafelt gave a nice paper at SBL showing how the whole lament in 2 Sameul 1 is meant sarcastically - specifically verse 22 praising Saul's sword and Jonathan's bow as signs of their "heroism". Maybe somebody can help me with the part about the leprosy at 3:29, The "lacking bread" has a parallel in the curse at 1 Samuel 1:36.
            Andrew Fincke

            George F Somsel <gfsomsel@yahoo. com> wrote:
            Thanks for that. I don't know how I missed it when I looked it up. It seems there are only two instances of this word. Other apparent instances are actually of a homonym deriving from a different source. It would seem that your judgment that handling a spindle was considered a curse for a man is based on 2 Sam 3.29

            29May [the guilt] fall upon the head of Joab and all his father���s house. May the house of Joab never be without someone suffering from a discharge or an eruption, or a male who handles the spindle, or one slain by the sword, or one lacking bread.�� ���

            Jewish Publication Society. (1997, c1985). Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures : A new translation of the Holy Scriptures according to the traditional Hebrew text. Title facing t.p.: Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim = Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim. (2 Sa 3:29). Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society.

            That is a passage I had nearly forgotten. It probably does have that implication.

            george
            gfsomsel
            _________






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          • Jim West
            ... Not only does it not necessarily connote such a relationship- but only someone looking for evidence of such a relationship could find it there. Best Jim
            Message 5 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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              George F Somsel wrote:
              > The statement that David loved Jonathan does NOT necessarily imply a homosexual relationship as you have implied on numerous occasions.
              >
              > george
              > gfsomsel
              > _________

              Not only does it not "necessarily" connote such a relationship- but only
              someone looking for evidence of such a relationship could find it there.

              Best

              Jim



              --
              Jim West, ThD

              http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
              http://drjimwest.wordpress.com -- Weblog
            • Andrew Fincke
              But that is the point of Horner s book. The exact reference is Tom Horner, Jonathan Loved David, Philadelphia (Westminster), 1978, p. 38. Linafelt s point at
              Message 6 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                But that is the point of Horner's book. The exact reference is Tom Horner, Jonathan Loved David, Philadelphia (Westminster), 1978, p. 38. Linafelt's point at SBL was that Saul's sword in the lament (2 Samuel 1:22), far from being the implement of a hero, was the tool in his suicide, and that Jonathan's bow was key to his renouncing his claim to the throne. With it he shot the arrows that warned David to flee execution - 1 Samuel 20:35ff. See Ackerman's, When Heroes Love and especially Nardelli's new book when it comes out.
                Andrew Fincke

                George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
                The statement that David loved Jonathan does NOT necessarily imply a homosexual relationship as you have implied on numerous occasions.

                george
                gfsomsel
                _________



                ----- Original Message ----
                From: Andrew Fincke
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 7:48:13 AM
                Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers


                Good point, George. Horner already saw this in David Loved Jonathan, 1977, though I don't have the specific page reference on hand. The curse on Joab's house is misplaced - the target is rather Saul, who fell by the sword, that is his own. The holder of the spindle is Jonathan - he "held" the spindle, David's, in their erotic act. Tod Linafelt gave a nice paper at SBL showing how the whole lament in 2 Sameul 1 is meant sarcastically - specifically verse 22 praising Saul's sword and Jonathan's bow as signs of their "heroism". Maybe somebody can help me with the part about the leprosy at 3:29, The "lacking bread" has a parallel in the curse at 1 Samuel 1:36.
                Andrew Fincke

                George F Somsel wrote:
                Thanks for that. I don't know how I missed it when I looked it up. It seems there are only two instances of this word. Other apparent instances are actually of a homonym deriving from a different source. It would seem that your judgment that handling a spindle was considered a curse for a man is based on 2 Sam 3.29

                29May [the guilt] fall upon the head of Joab and all his father’s house. May the house of Joab never be without someone suffering from a discharge or an eruption, or a male who handles the spindle, or one slain by the sword, or one lacking bread.†—

                Jewish Publication Society. (1997, c1985). Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures : A new translation of the Holy Scriptures according to the traditional Hebrew text. Title facing t.p.: Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim = Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim. (2 Sa 3:29). Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society.

                That is a passage I had nearly forgotten. It probably does have that implication.

                george
                gfsomsel
                _________






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              • Niels Peter Lemche
                ... to ... execution - 1 Samuel 20:35ff. See Ackerman s, When Heroes Love and especially ... Maybe somebody here read too much Homer, and too little ANE
                Message 7 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                  > But that is the point of Horner's book. The exact reference is Tom
                  > Horner, Jonathan Loved David, Philadelphia (Westminster), 1978, p. 38.

                  > Linafelt's point at SBL was that Saul's sword in the lament (2 Samuel
                  > 1:22), far from being the implement of a hero, was the tool in his
                  > suicide, and that Jonathan's bow was key to his renouncing his claim
                  to
                  > the throne. With it he shot the arrows that warned David to flee
                  execution > - 1 Samuel >20:35ff. See Ackerman's, When Heroes Love and
                  especially
                  > Nardelli's new >book when it comes out.
                  > Andrew Fincke



                  Maybe somebody here read too much Homer, and too little ANE stuff. I
                  guess that some here will think of similar homosexual motives in
                  Gilgamesh. Homosexuality is mentioned here and there in the OT but they
                  simply don't like it. So what do we have: anything except a modern and
                  very colored reading of biblical texts? I guess that the same attitude
                  will turn most military history into a history of homosexuality, and we
                  are in no need of another Keagan to tell us that history.

                  Finally, and here we are again again again: on what background are we
                  discussing: a narrative and a dubious interpretation of the narrative,
                  or historical persons. Since we should only discuss the first thing
                  here, it must be narrative. We cannot use this text to say that David
                  was gay. WSE can discuss whether or not a novelist made him that. I
                  think that this novelist mostly show him as a friend of nice girls (or
                  rather women, as the narrative have him suing mostly married
                  women--Abigail, Batsheba, and perhaps even Micha).

                  Niels Peter Lemche

                  PS: a piece Paper never objects to what is written on it.
                • Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
                  Those unconvinced by the erotic dimension of David s and Jonathan s aheb in 1 Sam 18 ff. have to explain us how it is possible for a simple bind of friendship
                  Message 8 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                    Those unconvinced by the erotic dimension of David's and Jonathan's 'aheb in 1 Sam 18 ff. have to explain us how it is possible for a simple bind of friendship or homosociality to contain so many discrepancies with the Biblical norms and to verge so often on the erotic without incurring any blame and being praised as a wonder and a model by the subsequent tradition (the Liber Antiquitatum Biblicarum, which devotes its chap. 62 to the dealings of the two men, and the Targum of Jonathan). For example, how is it possible that their three successive berîts entail both unique or extraordinary phraseology (e.g. in 1 Sam 20:3, David makes an oath by the life of Yahweh and the life of the soul of Jonathan ; in 1 Sam 20:8, their bind is a yhwh berît) and a shifting in their status qua covenant partners, with this consequence that it is hardly feasible to tell who is the superior and who the vassal ? Better a difficult conclusion which tries to explain the facts than a conventional one which ignores everything which is unclear.

                    J.-F. Nardelli.

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Jim West
                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 3:32 PM
                    Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers



                    Not only does it not "necessarily" connote such a relationship- but only
                    someone looking for evidence of such a relationship could find it there.

                    Best

                    Jim

                    --
                    Jim West, ThD
                  • Peter T. Daniels
                    Nor, of course, is that interpretation excluded. -- Peter T. Daniels grammatim@verizon.net ... From: George F Somsel To:
                    Message 9 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                      Nor, of course, is that interpretation excluded.

                      --
                      Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...



                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...>
                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 8:44:28 AM
                      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers


                      The statement that David loved Jonathan does NOT necessarily imply a homosexual relationship as you have implied on numerous occasions.

                      george
                      gfsomsel
                      _________

                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: Andrew Fincke <finckean@...>
                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 7:48:13 AM
                      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers

                      Good point, George. Horner already saw this in David Loved Jonathan, 1977, though I don't have the specific page reference on hand. The curse on Joab's house is misplaced - the target is rather Saul, who fell by the sword, that is his own. The holder of the spindle is Jonathan - he "held" the spindle, David's, in their erotic act. Tod Linafelt gave a nice paper at SBL showing how the whole lament in 2 Sameul 1 is meant sarcastically - specifically verse 22 praising Saul's sword and Jonathan's bow as signs of their "heroism". Maybe somebody can help me with the part about the leprosy at 3:29, The "lacking bread" has a parallel in the curse at 1 Samuel 1:36.
                      Andrew Fincke

                      George F Somsel <gfsomsel@yahoo. com> wrote:
                      Thanks for that. I don't know how I missed it when I looked it up. It seems there are only two instances of this word. Other apparent instances are actually of a homonym deriving from a different source. It would seem that your judgment that handling a spindle was considered a curse for a man is based on 2 Sam 3.29

                      29May [the guilt] fall upon the head of Joab and all his father���s house. May the house of Joab never be without someone suffering from a discharge or an eruption, or a male who handles the spindle, or one slain by the sword, or one lacking bread.�� ���

                      Jewish Publication Society. (1997, c1985). Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures : A new translation of the Holy Scriptures according to the traditional Hebrew text. Title facing t.p.: Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim = Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim. (2 Sa 3:29). Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society.

                      That is a passage I had nearly forgotten. It probably does have that implication.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Kevin P. Edgecomb
                      ... KP Edgecomb writes: But this is depicted not as just a homosocial or homosexual relationship between two private citizens, but between the heir assumptive
                      Message 10 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                        Jean-Fabrice Nardelli wrote:
                        > Those unconvinced by the erotic dimension of David's and Jonathan's 'aheb in 1 Sam 18 ff. have to explain us how it is possible for a simple bind of friendship or homosociality to contain so many discrepancies with the Biblical norms [snip]

                        KP Edgecomb writes:
                        But this is depicted not as just a homosocial or homosexual relationship between two private citizens, but between the heir assumptive and a later usurper, in a wider narrative context in which David's usurpation of the monarchy, taking it from the line of Saul via Jonathan and sons, is being justified. The rational gymnastics of such ex post facto justifications and their relationship to the events distorted by such justifications often simply don't correlate easily, particularly when it is the usurpers produce the narrative evidence. Witness Darius the Great's Behistun inscriptions: something unusual went on, but the precise details of his coup and usurpation are overlaid with a patriotic and religious sheen.

                        Regardless, no sexual acts are described between the two, despite the eisegesis. The gay nineties are over. We can move on.

                        Regards,
                        Kevin P. Edgecomb
                        Berkeley, California
                      • Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
                        Precisely : Ackerman went at great lengths to demonstrate that there is an erotic apologetic in the latter part of Sam : no man sexually submissive to
                        Message 11 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                          Precisely : Ackerman went at great lengths to demonstrate that there is an "erotic apologetic" in the latter part of Sam : no man sexually submissive to another was qualified to be king, and so David was legitimate enough to succeed to Saul. Thus, by "loving" David, Jonathan may well have been pictured by the narrator (echoeing no doubt some Davidic propaganda) as having renounced his masculinity and every right he possessed to inherit the throne of his father. I am not convinced that this is the right explanation, but it throws much light on a narrative which is crabbed, elliptic and obscure, and as such no one can afford to ignore it as if it were mere hariolations.

                          If 1 Sam 18 ff. were as crystal-clear and straigthforward as some want to have it, why on earth burden its account of David's rise to the power with a covenant with Jonathan whose terms are exceedingly difficult to understand and a whole complex of affective notations between the heir and its putative rival, notations wich are so far from being devoid of sensuous overtones that they disrupt the well-established societal order of ancient Israel ? These pointers make a male, Jonathan, seem more important to David than his own wife and the one woman in the whole of the Bible who is described as having desired her husband, Michol : cui bono ?

                          It is not by shutting one's eyes to interpretative difficulties that they are likely to disappear. To charge with dragging-in homosexuality and reading ancient texts through modern lens and prejudices interpreters who tentatively introduce a controlled amount of male-male affect in the affair of David with Jonathan because they consider that this hypothesis and only it resolves otherwise aporetic questions, is sheer nonsense. Homosexuality in the Old Testament remains as problematic as ever ; like it is the case for Homer (experto credite), it requires observation, more observation and yet more observation, certainly not apodictic proclamations pro or cons.

                          J.-F. Nardelli.

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Kevin P. Edgecomb
                          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 9:09 PM
                          Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers



                          The rational gymnastics of such ex post facto justifications and their relationship to the events distorted by such justifications often simply don't correlate easily, particularly when it is the usurpers produce the narrative evidence.
                        • Peter T. Daniels
                          NPL -- note that they re talking about H o r n e r (a modern American) and not H o m e r. Screen fonts are sometimes not all they need to be. -- Peter T.
                          Message 12 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                            NPL -- note that they're talking about H o r n e r (a modern American) and not H o m e r.

                            Screen fonts are sometimes not all they need to be.
                            --
                            Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...

                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...>
                            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 11:17:11 AM
                            Subject: SV: [ANE-2] weavers

                            > But that is the point of Horner's book. The exact reference is Tom
                            > Horner, Jonathan Loved David, Philadelphia (Westminster) , 1978, p. 38.

                            > Linafelt's point at SBL was that Saul's sword in the lament (2 Samuel
                            > 1:22), far from being the implement of a hero, was the tool in his
                            > suicide, and that Jonathan's bow was key to his renouncing his claim
                            to
                            > the throne. With it he shot the arrows that warned David to flee
                            execution > - 1 Samuel >20:35ff. See Ackerman's, When Heroes Love and
                            especially
                            > Nardelli's new >book when it comes out.
                            > Andrew Fincke

                            Maybe somebody here read too much Homer, and too little ANE stuff. I
                            guess that some here will think of similar homosexual motives in
                            Gilgamesh. Homosexuality is mentioned here and there in the OT but they
                            simply don't like it. So what do we have: anything except a modern and
                            very colored reading of biblical texts? I guess that the same attitude
                            will turn most military history into a history of homosexuality, and we
                            are in no need of another Keagan to tell us that history.

                            Finally, and here we are again again again: on what background are we
                            discussing: a narrative and a dubious interpretation of the narrative,
                            or historical persons. Since we should only discuss the first thing
                            here, it must be narrative. We cannot use this text to say that David
                            was gay. WSE can discuss whether or not a novelist made him that. I
                            think that this novelist mostly show him as a friend of nice girls (or
                            rather women, as the narrative have him suing mostly married
                            women--Abigail, Batsheba, and perhaps even Micha).

                            Niels Peter Lemche

                            PS: a piece Paper never objects to what is written on it.
                          • Niels Peter Lemche
                            Well, if you want it so, no problem, and you might even be cited in support of the idea nourished by the late Frederick Cryer of comparing the story of David
                            Message 13 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                              Well, if you want it so, no problem, and you might even be cited in
                              support of the idea nourished by the late Frederick Cryer of comparing
                              the story of David with the Alexander-novel. This could easily have been
                              a problem, if the author wrote his David-novel in the Hellenistic
                              Period. However, if you move into the field of historicity, I have
                              nothing more to say.

                              So let's stay with the novel, the only thing we have for sure. David has
                              been accused for many "crimes", the murder of Abner, Ishbaal, not really
                              Saul, and of stealing other men's wives. So why not of homosexuality
                              otherwise forbidden in the HB.

                              The verb "to love", 'ahab, may have this connotation. However, it is
                              also covenant language or patronage language as shown many years ago by
                              Herbert Huffmon. So the sequence may only indicate that in their
                              covenantal relationship, David and Jonathan were bound by the "love"
                              demanded by the characters entering the covenant. The client is demanded
                              to "love" his patron. Well, I suppose that religion demands the believer
                              to "love" his divine lord as well.

                              There are others explanations for the plot making Michal loving David,
                              among them the eventuality that their relationship was rather "tricky",
                              when David demanded her to divorce her husband, and later let her
                              barren. It might be difficult to see traces of apologies for
                              homosexuality here. It seems that the crime is of a different character.

                              I hope that this will be deemed biased, because then, some people may
                              have a problem demanding the text to say exactly what they wish it to
                              say.


                              Niels Peter Lemche
                            • Niels Peter Lemche
                              Great! It is getting late over here, so I bid you good night. However, the relationship between Achilleus and Patroklos (or is it Patrokles--it is too late to
                              Message 14 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                                Great! It is getting late over here, so I bid you good night.

                                However, the relationship between Achilleus and Patroklos (or is it Patrokles--it is too late to get to my Iliad) may be a good comparison, and it is probably time for our Mesopotamian friends to make their comment on the relationship between Gilgamesh and Enkidu.

                                Niels Peter Lemche


                                -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Peter T. Daniels
                                Sendt: 6. december 2006 00:06
                                Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] weavers

                                NPL -- note that they're talking about H o r n e r (a modern American) and not H o m e r.

                                Screen fonts are sometimes not all they need to be.
                                --
                                Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
                              • Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
                                Niels, you can t stick to the notion that the client is demanded to love his patron , because this would be neither a hesed nor a berît, but a loyalty
                                Message 15 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                                  Niels, you can't stick to the notion that "the client is demanded to 'love' his patron", because this would be neither a hesed nor a berît, but a loyalty treaty, which is quite another thing (an adjuration). In the loyalty treaty, the weaker part binds himself willingly to the stronger one by making an oath of loyalty, that is, unconditional obedience ; then he will "love" his patron or suzerain more than his own life and family. If you're right, then the Samuel narrator went badly astray in calling berît such a proclamation of Jonathan vis-à-vis David ; this seems impossible to me. Furthermore, despite his victory over Goliath, David is still far outranked by Jonathan at the precise moment when, in 1 Sam 18:3, Saul's son, being the crown prince (to put the matter anachronically), decides to lower himself down and bind himself to the son of Jesse "because he loved him like his own soul". Berîts seldom wrap themselves up in such a sentimental language.

                                  Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
                                • Lampros F. Kallenos
                                  ... The way to handle a spear is different from the way to handle a weaver s beam. You handle a spear by putting your fingers around it, and then you also have
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                                    > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver’s beam
                                    > ... ...
                                    > The implication of this is that a weaver's beam was
                                    > significantly larger and heavier than the normal spear shaft.
                                    > Such a "weaver's beam" would be a significant implement for
                                    > any average woman to handle.
                                    >
                                    > gfsomsel


                                    The way to handle a spear is different from the way to handle a
                                    weaver's beam.

                                    You handle a spear by putting your fingers around it, and then
                                    you also have to lift and throw it. But a weaver's beam is about
                                    15-20 centimeters (six inches) long, and only has to be thrown or
                                    pushed among the threads to the other side of the weaving
                                    installation.

                                    So, I think what this phrase

                                    > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver’s beam

                                    intends to is only a reference to the diameter of the shaft, not
                                    to its weight. The weight is commented in the next phrase

                                    > his spear’s head weighed six hundred shekels of iron

                                    And so, a woman could be a weaver.


                                    .
                                    _______________________
                                    Lampros F. Kallenos "...EKANAN OISTRO THS ZWHS
                                    Idalion, Lefkosia TO FOBO TOU QANATOU"
                                    Kypros
                                    --
                                  • David Lorton
                                    ... And how often have we seen wording along the lines of click on this link for more information . . . in sans serif type . . . with very tight letter
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                                      Peter T. Daniels wrote:
                                      >
                                      > NPL -- note that they're talking about H o r n e r (a modern American) and not H o m e r.
                                      >
                                      > Screen fonts are sometimes not all they need to be.
                                      > --
                                      > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...

                                      And how often have we seen wording along the lines of "click on this
                                      link for more information" . . . in sans serif type . . . with very
                                      tight letter spacing.

                                      A propos of this topic of homosexual weavers (or kings, or whoever) . .
                                      . is it really appropriate, on this scholarly list, for people to be
                                      interpreting biblical texts solely on the basis of English-language
                                      translations? And with no citations of relevant literature in any of
                                      the major languages of scholarship in our fields?

                                      David Lorton
                                      Baltimore, MD
                                    • George F Somsel
                                      That would seem to solve a difficulty in reconciling the ABD article stating that women did the weaving with the physical realities that they would not be able
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                                        That would seem to solve a difficulty in reconciling the ABD article stating that women did the weaving with the physical realities that they would not be able to handle something so heavy as what Goliath's spear was represented as being.

                                        george
                                        gfsomsel
                                        _________



                                        ----- Original Message ----
                                        From: Lampros F. Kallenos <xalkinos@...>
                                        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 8:04:28 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers


                                        > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver�s beam
                                        > ... ...
                                        > The implication of this is that a weaver's beam was
                                        > significantly larger and heavier than the normal spear shaft.
                                        > Such a "weaver's beam" would be a significant implement for
                                        > any average woman to handle.
                                        >
                                        > gfsomsel


                                        The way to handle a spear is different from the way to handle a
                                        weaver's beam.

                                        You handle a spear by putting your fingers around it, and then
                                        you also have to lift and throw it. But a weaver's beam is about
                                        15-20 centimeters (six inches) long, and only has to be thrown or
                                        pushed among the threads to the other side of the weaving
                                        installation.

                                        So, I think what this phrase

                                        > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver�s beam

                                        intends to is only a reference to the diameter of the shaft, not
                                        to its weight. The weight is commented in the next phrase

                                        > his spear�s head weighed six hundred shekels of iron

                                        And so, a woman could be a weaver.


                                        .
                                        _______________________
                                        Lampros F. Kallenos "...EKANAN OISTRO THS ZWHS
                                        Idalion, Lefkosia TO FOBO TOU QANATOU"
                                        Kypros
                                        --



                                        Yahoo! Groups Links





                                        ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                        Cheap talk?
                                        Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
                                        http://voice.yahoo.com

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • goranson@duke.edu
                                        Two perhaps relevant books: Though this deals mainly with later times, it probably includes some earlier bibliography (and cf. some of her articles and reviews
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Dec 6, 2006
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                                          Two perhaps relevant books:

                                          Though this deals mainly with later times, it probably includes some earlier
                                          bibliography (and cf. some of her articles and reviews for debate on weaving
                                          gender issues):
                                          Spinning fantasies : rabbis, gender, and history /
                                          Miriam Peskowitz 1997
                                          English Book xiv, 249 p. ; 24 cm.
                                          Berkeley : University of California Press, ; ISBN: 0520208315
                                          0520209672 (pbk.)

                                          This one includes some more ancient material (in both senses) as well as at
                                          least some discussion of women weavers:
                                          Archéologie des textiles des origines au Ve siècle :
                                          actes du colloque de Lattes, octobre 1999 /
                                          Dominique Cardon; Michel Feugère 2000
                                          French Book 290 p., 4 p. of plates : ill. (some col.), maps ; 30 cm.
                                          Montagnac : M. Mergoil,

                                          though I returned it to interlibrary loan just days ago, and didn't
                                          read it all.
                                          By the way, I got it to copy "The textiles from Khirbet Qazone (Jordan)" by H.
                                          Granger-Taylor" p. 149-62 and 1 colour plate. Based of the dating of these
                                          Lisan cemetery textiles, it appears that this cemetery is (at least in this
                                          sample) later than the second temple Qumran burials. Though the two share some
                                          similarities, the two cemeteries differ in some other significant respects
                                          (e.g., besides dating, grave goods, and proportions of men, women, and
                                          children).

                                          best
                                          Stephen Goranson
                                          http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
                                        • Kevin P. Edgecomb
                                          Yigael Yadin in his Art of Warfare in Biblical Lands, 2:354-355, suggests the shaft of his spear like a weaver s beam in 1 Samuel 17.7 was rather to indicate
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Dec 6, 2006
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                                            Yigael Yadin in his Art of Warfare in Biblical Lands, 2:354-355, suggests
                                            the "shaft of his spear like a weaver's beam" in 1 Samuel 17.7 was rather to
                                            indicate that, like the "leash rod" of a loom, it possessed a cord wrapped
                                            around the shaft which created a short loop. The illustrations given are for
                                            a model of a primitve Greek loom, a drawing of a modern leash rod's loops,
                                            and a black figure kylix of a hoplite with precisely such a spear and his
                                            finger through the loop. The caption reads: "A typical Aegean javelin has a
                                            loop and cord wound round the shaft so that the weapon could be hurled a
                                            greater distance with greater stability by virtue of the resultant spin. The
                                            Greeks and Romans called such a javelin 'the loop.'"

                                            It's such a fine solution to the problem, that probably means it's wrong.

                                            Regards,
                                            Kevin P. Edgecomb
                                            Berkeley, California

                                            > -----Original Message-----
                                            > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On
                                            > Behalf Of George F Somsel
                                            > Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 8:40 PM
                                            > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers
                                            >
                                            > That would seem to solve a difficulty in reconciling the ABD
                                            > article stating that women did the weaving with the physical
                                            > realities that they would not be able to handle something so
                                            > heavy as what Goliath's spear was represented as being.
                                            >
                                            > george
                                            > gfsomsel
                                            > _________
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ----- Original Message ----
                                            > From: Lampros F. Kallenos <xalkinos@...>
                                            > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 8:04:28 PM
                                            > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver¢s beam ... ...
                                            > > The implication of this is that a weaver's beam was significantly
                                            > > larger and heavier than the normal spear shaft.
                                            > > Such a "weaver's beam" would be a significant implement for any
                                            > > average woman to handle.
                                            > >
                                            > > gfsomsel
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > The way to handle a spear is different from the way to handle
                                            > a weaver's beam.
                                            >
                                            > You handle a spear by putting your fingers around it, and
                                            > then you also have to lift and throw it. But a weaver's beam
                                            > is about 15-20 centimeters (six inches) long, and only has to
                                            > be thrown or pushed among the threads to the other side of
                                            > the weaving installation.
                                            >
                                            > So, I think what this phrase
                                            >
                                            > > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver¢s beam
                                            >
                                            > intends to is only a reference to the diameter of the shaft,
                                            > not to its weight. The weight is commented in the next phrase
                                            >
                                            > > his spear¢s head weighed six hundred shekels of iron
                                            >
                                            > And so, a woman could be a weaver.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > .
                                            > _______________________
                                            > Lampros F. Kallenos "...EKANAN OISTRO THS ZWHS
                                            > Idalion, Lefkosia TO FOBO TOU QANATOU"
                                            > Kypros
                                            > --
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ______________________________________________________________
                                            > ______________________
                                            > Cheap talk?
                                            > Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
                                            > http://voice.yahoo.com
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • Richard S. Ellis
                                            ... What you are thinking about is a shuttle, which I don t think anyone (in English) would refer to as a beam. If beam is a good translation, it is more
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Dec 6, 2006
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                                              Lampros F. Kallenos wrote:
                                              > > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver’s beam
                                              > > ... ...
                                              > > The implication of this is that a weaver's beam was
                                              > > significantly larger and heavier than the normal spear shaft.
                                              > > Such a "weaver's beam" would be a significant implement for
                                              > > any average woman to handle.
                                              > >
                                              > > gfsomsel
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > The way to handle a spear is different from the way to handle a
                                              > weaver's beam.
                                              >
                                              > You handle a spear by putting your fingers around it, and then
                                              > you also have to lift and throw it. But a weaver's beam is about
                                              > 15-20 centimeters (six inches) long, and only has to be thrown or
                                              > pushed among the threads to the other side of the weaving
                                              > installation.

                                              What you are thinking about is a shuttle, which I don't think anyone (in
                                              English) would refer to as a beam. If "beam" is a good translation, it
                                              is more likely to refer either to one of the two beams of a ground loom
                                              or of an upright loom, or to the warp beam of a warp-weighted loom. In
                                              any case the beam would not be moved while the loom was in use. For all
                                              this stuff you might refer to:

                                              Barber, Elizabeth J. W. 1990. Prehistoric Textiles: The Development of
                                              Cloth in the Neolithic and Bronze Ages with Special Reference to the
                                              Aegean. Princeton: Princeton University Press.

                                              Dick Ellis
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