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Re: [ANE-2] weavers

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  • victor avigdor hurowitz
    you and Liz might be interested in S. Zawadaski, Garments of the Gods. Studies on the Textile Industry and the Pantheon of Sippar according to the Texts from
    Message 1 of 30 , Dec 4, 2006
      you and Liz might be interested in S. Zawadaski, Garments of the
      Gods. Studies on the Textile Industry and the Pantheon of Sippar according
      to the Texts from the Ebabbar Archive, OBO 218, Fribourg, Goettingen 2006
      Victor
      BGU



      On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, George F Somsel wrote:

      > Large numbers of women of the lower social classes were employed in temple and palace workshops. Some were free, many slaves. Here too they worked in traditional feminine occupations, in the kitchen as cooks, pastry makers, and menials; in the textile industry as spinners and weavers. Usually all were under the supervision of men. Free women might have brought their children with them. Women of the poorer classes must have helped their husbands in whatever occupation they were in, for there was no sequestering of women. Women might also have worked in various agricultural jobs in palace and temple fields and with animals.
      >
      > Freedman, D. N. (1996, c1992). The Anchor Bible Dictionary (6:949). New York: Doubleday.
      >
      > This would seem to indicate that in the ANE women may have done the work but the supervision was male. Perhaps this is so with regard to weaving, but I recall a passage in the OT which might call this into question (not simply on the basis of grammatical gender). In 1 Sam 17.7 it states regarding the accoutrements of Goliath
      >
      > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver¢s beam, and his spear¢s head weighed six hundred shekels of iron; and his shield-bearer went before him.
      >
      > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (1 Sa 17:7). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
      >
      > The implication of this is that a weaver's beam was significantly larger and heavier than the normal spear shaft. Such a "weaver's beam" would be a significant implement for any average woman to handle (though I've known a few who would be up to the task). Of course, in the account of the construction of the tabernacle, its work is attributed to two men, Bezalel and Oholiab.
      >
      > george
      > gfsomsel
      > _________
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message ----
      > From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...>
      > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Monday, December 4, 2006 11:59:39 AM
      > Subject: [ANE-2] weavers
      >
      > Dear All,
      > Most of the references to weavers in the OT (all but one) are in the masculine. Do I assume from this that most weaving was done by men? The other reference is to women weaving in the temple for Asherah. That phrase is paired with male prostitutes. Does that imply a reversal of roles, that men usually weave and women are usually prostitutes?
      > Who did the weaving in the ANE?
      > Thanks,
      > Liz Fried
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ____________________________________________________________________________________
      > Do you Yahoo!?
      > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
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      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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    • George F Somsel
      30And Moses said to the Israelites: See, the Lord has singled out by name Bezalel, son of Uri son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. 31He has endowed
      Message 2 of 30 , Dec 4, 2006
        30And Moses said to the Israelites: See, the Lord has singled out by name Bezalel, son of Uri son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. 31He has endowed him with a divine spirit of skill, ability, and knowledge in every kind of craft 32and has inspired him to make designs for work in gold, silver, and copper, 33to cut stones for setting and to carve wood—to work in every kind of designer’s craft—34and to give directions. He and Oholiab son of Ahisamach of the tribe of Dan 35have been endowed with the skill to do any work—of the carver, the designer, the embroiderer in blue, purple, crimson yarns, and in fine linen, and of the weaver—as workers in all crafts and as makers of designs.

        Jewish Publication Society. (1997, c1985). Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures : A new translation of the Holy Scriptures according to the traditional Hebrew text. Title facing t.p.: Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim = Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim. (Ex 35:30). Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society.

        I might mention that according to Acts St Paul was himself a tentmaker

        After this Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. 2 There he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to see them, 3 and, because he was of the same trade, he stayed with them, and they worked together—by trade they were tentmakers. 4 Every sabbath he would argue in the synagogue and would try to convince Jews and Greeks.

        The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Ac 18:1). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

        Victor,

        Your rendering makes it seem that you are referring to a word Pe Lamed Kap, could it be Pe Lamed Het?

        george
        gfsomsel
        _________



        ----- Original Message ----
        From: victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@...>
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, December 4, 2006 1:15:38 PM
        Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers

        I haven't checked th ereferences, but here are some things of the top of
        my head.
        If you look in the tAbernacle pericope you will find that women are
        spinners, while it is bezalel and oholiab who do the weaving. Also the
        e$et hayil holds a pelek in her hand, and holding a
        pelek is a curse on a man. What is the relationship between spinners and
        weavers? Can weaving be a more skilled art than spinning? In general,
        check out the relationship between rqm and t.wy

        Victor
        BGU

        On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, Lisbeth S. Fried wrote:

        > Dear All,
        > Most of the references to weavers in the OT (all but one) are in the masculine. Do I assume from this that most weaving was done by men? The other reference is to women weaving in the temple for Asherah. That phrase is paired with male prostitutes. Does that imply a reversal of roles, that men usually weave and women are usually prostitutes?
        > Who did the weaving in the ANE?
        > Thanks,
        > Liz Fried
        >
      • Lisbeth S. Fried
        This looks great! Thanks, Victor. Liz Fried ... victor ... temple and palace ... traditional feminine ... textile industry as ... women might ... have helped
        Message 3 of 30 , Dec 4, 2006
          This looks great! Thanks, Victor.
          Liz Fried

          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          victor
          > avigdor hurowitz
          > Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 1:20 PM
          > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers
          >
          > you and Liz might be interested in S. Zawadaski, Garments of the
          > Gods. Studies on the Textile Industry and the Pantheon of Sippar according
          > to the Texts from the Ebabbar Archive, OBO 218, Fribourg, Goettingen 2006
          > Victor
          > BGU
          >
          >
          >
          > On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, George F Somsel wrote:
          >
          > > Large numbers of women of the lower social classes were employed in
          temple and palace
          > workshops. Some were free, many slaves. Here too they worked in
          traditional feminine
          > occupations, in the kitchen as cooks, pastry makers, and menials; in the
          textile industry as
          > spinners and weavers. Usually all were under the supervision of men. Free
          women might
          > have brought their children with them. Women of the poorer classes must
          have helped their
          > husbands in whatever occupation they were in, for there was no
          sequestering of women.
          > Women might also have worked in various agricultural jobs in palace and
          temple fields and
          > with animals.
          > >
          > > Freedman, D. N. (1996, c1992). The Anchor Bible Dictionary (6:949). New
          York:
          > Doubleday.
          > >
          > > This would seem to indicate that in the ANE women may have done the work
          but the
          > supervision was male. Perhaps this is so with regard to weaving, but I
          recall a passage in
          > the OT which might call this into question (not simply on the basis of
          grammatical gender).
          > In 1 Sam 17.7 it states regarding the accoutrements of Goliath
          > >
          > > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver¢s beam, and his spear¢s head
          weighed six
          > hundred shekels of iron; and his shield-bearer went before him.
          > >
          > > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (1 Sa 17:7).
          Nashville: Thomas
          > Nelson Publishers.
          > >
          > > The implication of this is that a weaver's beam was significantly larger
          and heavier than
          > the normal spear shaft. Such a "weaver's beam" would be a significant
          implement for any
          > average woman to handle (though I've known a few who would be up to the
          task). Of
          > course, in the account of the construction of the tabernacle, its work is
          attributed to two
          > men, Bezalel and Oholiab.
          > >
          > > george
          > > gfsomsel
          > > _________
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message ----
          > > From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...>
          > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          > > Sent: Monday, December 4, 2006 11:59:39 AM
          > > Subject: [ANE-2] weavers
          > >
          > > Dear All,
          > > Most of the references to weavers in the OT (all but one) are in the
          masculine. Do I
          > assume from this that most weaving was done by men? The other reference is
          to women
          > weaving in the temple for Asherah. That phrase is paired with male
          prostitutes. Does that
          > imply a reversal of roles, that men usually weave and women are usually
          prostitutes?
          > > Who did the weaving in the ANE?
          > > Thanks,
          > > Liz Fried
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > __________________________________________________________________________
          > __________
          > > Do you Yahoo!?
          > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
          > > http://new.mail.yahoo.com
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • victor avigdor hurowitz
          the word for spindle is pe-lamed-kaf and NOT peh-lamed-het which means to split. The word for spinning in t.et-waw-heh The word for weaving is oreg
          Message 4 of 30 , Dec 4, 2006
            the word for spindle is pe-lamed-kaf and NOT peh-lamed-het which means to
            split.

            The word for spinning in t.et-waw-heh
            The word for weaving is 'oreg
            re$-qof-mem implies embroidering
            there is also somthing called ho$eb which seems to be a type of weaving by
            which designs are put in the fabric.
            The woman spin raw material into thread while the men weave it into cloth,
            some of it with designs, either embroidered.
            I'm not a real expert in these matters but the individual terms express
            different activities in the cloth making process. The women who make
            battim for the asherah are doing oreg and not t.wh
            Best,
            Victor






            On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, George F Somsel wrote:

            > 30And Moses said to the Israelites: See, the Lord has singled out by name Bezalel, son of Uri son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. 31He has endowed him with a divine spirit of skill, ability, and knowledge in every kind of craft 32and has inspired him to make designs for work in gold, silver, and copper, 33to cut stones for setting and to carve wood—to work in every kind of designer’s craft—34and to give directions. He and Oholiab son of Ahisamach of the tribe of Dan 35have been endowed with the skill to do any work—of the carver, the designer, the embroiderer in blue, purple, crimson yarns, and in fine linen, and of the weaver—as workers in all crafts and as makers of designs.
            >
            > Jewish Publication Society. (1997, c1985). Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures : A new translation of the Holy Scriptures according to the traditional Hebrew text. Title facing t.p.: Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim = Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim. (Ex 35:30). Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society.
            >
            > I might mention that according to Acts St Paul was himself a tentmaker
            >
            > After this Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. 2 There he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to see them, 3 and, because he was of the same trade, he stayed with them, and they worked together—by trade they were tentmakers. 4 Every sabbath he would argue in the synagogue and would try to convince Jews and Greeks.
            >
            > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Ac 18:1). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
            >
            > Victor,
            >
            > Your rendering makes it seem that you are referring to a word Pe Lamed Kap, could it be Pe Lamed Het?
            >
            > george
            > gfsomsel
            > _________
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message ----
            > From: victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@...>
            > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Monday, December 4, 2006 1:15:38 PM
            > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers
            >
            > I haven't checked th ereferences, but here are some things of the top of
            > my head.
            > If you look in the tAbernacle pericope you will find that women are
            > spinners, while it is bezalel and oholiab who do the weaving. Also the
            > e$et hayil holds a pelek in her hand, and holding a
            > pelek is a curse on a man. What is the relationship between spinners and
            > weavers? Can weaving be a more skilled art than spinning? In general,
            > check out the relationship between rqm and t.wy
            >
            > Victor
            > BGU
            >
            > On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, Lisbeth S. Fried wrote:
            >
            > > Dear All,
            > > Most of the references to weavers in the OT (all but one) are in the masculine. Do I assume from this that most weaving was done by men? The other reference is to women weaving in the temple for Asherah. That phrase is paired with male prostitutes. Does that imply a reversal of roles, that men usually weave and women are usually prostitutes?
            > > Who did the weaving in the ANE?
            > > Thanks,
            > > Liz Fried
            > >
            >
          • Robert M Whiting
            ... For Mesopotamia in the Ur III period, see also, in general, H. Waetzoldt, Untersuchungung zur neusumerischen Textilindustrie (Rome 1972), and, in specific,
            Message 5 of 30 , Dec 4, 2006
              On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, victor avigdor hurowitz wrote:

              > you and Liz might be interested in S. Zawadaski, Garments of the
              > Gods. Studies on the Textile Industry and the Pantheon of Sippar according
              > to the Texts from the Ebabbar Archive, OBO 218, Fribourg, Goettingen 2006
              > Victor
              > BGU

              For Mesopotamia in the Ur III period, see also, in general, H. Waetzoldt,
              Untersuchungung zur neusumerischen Textilindustrie (Rome 1972), and, in
              specific, A. Uchitel, "Women at Work: Weavers of Lagash and Spinners of
              San Luis Gonzaga" in S. Parpola and R. Whiting (eds.) Sex and Gender in
              the Ancient Near East, CRRAI 47 (Helsinki, 2002), 621-31.

              George pretty much has it right. Women did most of the work of weaving
              and men did the supervision.

              Bob Whiting
              whiting@...

              >
              > On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, George F Somsel wrote:
              >
              > > Large numbers of women of the lower social classes were employed in
              > > temple and palace workshops. Some were free, many slaves. Here too
              > > they worked in traditional feminine occupations, in the kitchen as
              > > cooks, pastry makers, and menials; in the textile industry as spinners
              > > and weavers. Usually all were under the supervision of men. Free women
              > > might have brought their children with them. Women of the poorer
              > > classes must have helped their husbands in whatever occupation they
              > > were in, for there was no sequestering of women. Women might also have
              > > worked in various agricultural jobs in palace and temple fields and
              > > with animals.
              > >
              > > Freedman, D. N. (1996, c1992). The Anchor Bible Dictionary (6:949).
              > > New York: Doubleday.
              > >
              > > This would seem to indicate that in the ANE women may have done the
              > > work but the supervision was male. Perhaps this is so with regard to
              > > weaving, but I recall a passage in the OT which might call this into
              > > question (not simply on the basis of grammatical gender). In 1 Sam
              > > 17.7 it states regarding the accoutrements of Goliath
              > >
              > > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver¢s beam, and his spear¢s head
              > > weighed six hundred shekels of iron; and his shield-bearer went before
              > > him.
              > >
              > > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (1 Sa 17:7).
              > > Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
              > >
              > > The implication of this is that a weaver's beam was significantly
              > > larger and heavier than the normal spear shaft. Such a "weaver's
              > > beam" would be a significant implement for any average woman to handle
              > > (though I've known a few who would be up to the task). Of course, in
              > > the account of the construction of the tabernacle, its work is
              > > attributed to two men, Bezalel and Oholiab.
              > >
              > > george
              > > gfsomsel
            • George F Somsel
              Thanks for that. I don t know how I missed it when I looked it up. It seems there are only two instances of this word. Other apparent instances are actually
              Message 6 of 30 , Dec 4, 2006
                Thanks for that. I don't know how I missed it when I looked it up. It seems there are only two instances of this word. Other apparent instances are actually of a homonym deriving from a different source. It would seem that your judgment that handling a spindle was considered a curse for a man is based on 2 Sam 3.29

                29May [the guilt] fall upon the head of Joab and all his father’s house. May the house of Joab never be without someone suffering from a discharge or an eruption, or a male who handles the spindle, or one slain by the sword, or one lacking bread.”—

                Jewish Publication Society. (1997, c1985). Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures : A new translation of the Holy Scriptures according to the traditional Hebrew text. Title facing t.p.: Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim = Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim. (2 Sa 3:29). Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society.

                That is a passage I had nearly forgotten. It probably does have that implication.

                george
                gfsomsel
                _________



                ----- Original Message ----
                From: victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@...>
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, December 4, 2006 3:14:55 PM
                Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers


                the word for spindle is pe-lamed-kaf and NOT peh-lamed-het which means to
                split.

                The word for spinning in t.et-waw-heh
                The word for weaving is 'oreg
                re$-qof-mem implies embroidering
                there is also somthing called ho$eb which seems to be a type of weaving by
                which designs are put in the fabric.
                The woman spin raw material into thread while the men weave it into cloth,
                some of it with designs, either embroidered.
                I'm not a real expert in these matters but the individual terms express
                different activities in the cloth making process. The women who make
                battim for the asherah are doing oreg and not t.wh
                Best,
                Victor






                On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, George F Somsel wrote:

                > 30And Moses said to the Israelites: See, the Lord has singled out by name Bezalel, son of Uri son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. 31He has endowed him with a divine spirit of skill, ability, and knowledge in every kind of craft 32and has inspired him to make designs for work in gold, silver, and copper, 33to cut stones for setting and to carve wood—to work in every kind of designer’s craft—34and to give directions. He and Oholiab son of Ahisamach of the tribe of Dan 35have been endowed with the skill to do any work—of the carver, the designer, the embroiderer in blue, purple, crimson yarns, and in fine linen, and of the weaver—as workers in all crafts and as makers of designs.
                >
                > Jewish Publication Society. (1997, c1985). Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures : A new translation of the Holy Scriptures according to the traditional Hebrew text. Title facing t.p.: Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim = Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim. (Ex 35:30). Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society.
                >
                > I might mention that according to Acts St Paul was himself a tentmaker
                >
                > After this Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. 2 There he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to see them, 3 and, because he was of the same trade, he stayed with them, and they worked together—by trade they were tentmakers. 4 Every sabbath he would argue in the synagogue and would try to convince Jews and Greeks.
                >
                > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Ac 18:1). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
                >
                > Victor,
                >
                > Your rendering makes it seem that you are referring to a word Pe Lamed Kap, could it be Pe Lamed Het?
                >
                > george
                > gfsomsel
                > _________
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message ----
                > From: victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@...>
                > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Monday, December 4, 2006 1:15:38 PM
                > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers
                >
                > I haven't checked th ereferences, but here are some things of the top of
                > my head.
                > If you look in the tAbernacle pericope you will find that women are
                > spinners, while it is bezalel and oholiab who do the weaving. Also the
                > e$et hayil holds a pelek in her hand, and holding a
                > pelek is a curse on a man. What is the relationship between spinners and
                > weavers? Can weaving be a more skilled art than spinning? In general,
                > check out the relationship between rqm and t.wy
                >
                > Victor
                > BGU
                >
                > On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, Lisbeth S. Fried wrote:
                >
                > > Dear All,
                > > Most of the references to weavers in the OT (all but one) are in the masculine. Do I assume from this that most weaving was done by men? The other reference is to women weaving in the temple for Asherah. That phrase is paired with male prostitutes. Does that imply a reversal of roles, that men usually weave and women are usually prostitutes?
                > > Who did the weaving in the ANE?
                > > Thanks,
                > > Liz Fried
                > >
                >




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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Marc Cooper
                I would just add that while women seem to be the weavers in ED III and Sargonic Mesopotamia, female supervisors do appear in the tablets, though in Ur III and
                Message 7 of 30 , Dec 4, 2006
                  I would just add that while women seem to be the weavers in ED III
                  and Sargonic Mesopotamia, female supervisors do appear in the
                  tablets, though in Ur III and afterwards supervisors were always
                  male to my knowledge.

                  Marc Cooper
                  Missouri State University

                  --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Robert M Whiting <whiting@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, victor avigdor hurowitz wrote:
                  >
                  > > you and Liz might be interested in S. Zawadaski, Garments of the
                  > > Gods. Studies on the Textile Industry and the Pantheon of Sippar
                  according
                  > > to the Texts from the Ebabbar Archive, OBO 218, Fribourg,
                  Goettingen 2006
                  > > Victor
                  > > BGU
                  >
                  > For Mesopotamia in the Ur III period, see also, in general, H.
                  Waetzoldt,
                  > Untersuchungung zur neusumerischen Textilindustrie (Rome 1972),
                  and, in
                  > specific, A. Uchitel, "Women at Work: Weavers of Lagash and
                  Spinners of
                  > San Luis Gonzaga" in S. Parpola and R. Whiting (eds.) Sex and
                  Gender in
                  > the Ancient Near East, CRRAI 47 (Helsinki, 2002), 621-31.
                  >
                  > George pretty much has it right. Women did most of the work of
                  weaving
                  > and men did the supervision.
                  >
                  > Bob Whiting
                  > whiting@...
                  >
                  > >
                  > > On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, George F Somsel wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > Large numbers of women of the lower social classes were
                  employed in
                  > > > temple and palace workshops. Some were free, many slaves. Here
                  too
                  > > > they worked in traditional feminine occupations, in the
                  kitchen as
                  > > > cooks, pastry makers, and menials; in the textile industry as
                  spinners
                  > > > and weavers. Usually all were under the supervision of men.
                  Free women
                  > > > might have brought their children with them. Women of the
                  poorer
                  > > > classes must have helped their husbands in whatever occupation
                  they
                  > > > were in, for there was no sequestering of women. Women might
                  also have
                  > > > worked in various agricultural jobs in palace and temple
                  fields and
                  > > > with animals.
                  > > >
                  > > > Freedman, D. N. (1996, c1992). The Anchor Bible Dictionary
                  (6:949).
                  > > > New York: Doubleday.
                  > > >
                  > > > This would seem to indicate that in the ANE women may have
                  done the
                  > > > work but the supervision was male. Perhaps this is so with
                  regard to
                  > > > weaving, but I recall a passage in the OT which might call
                  this into
                  > > > question (not simply on the basis of grammatical gender). In
                  1 Sam
                  > > > 17.7 it states regarding the accoutrements of Goliath
                  > > >
                  > > > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver¢s beam, and his spear¢
                  s head
                  > > > weighed six hundred shekels of iron; and his shield-bearer
                  went before
                  > > > him.
                  > > >
                  > > > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (1 Sa
                  17:7).
                  > > > Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
                  > > >
                  > > > The implication of this is that a weaver's beam was
                  significantly
                  > > > larger and heavier than the normal spear shaft. Such
                  a "weaver's
                  > > > beam" would be a significant implement for any average woman
                  to handle
                  > > > (though I've known a few who would be up to the task). Of
                  course, in
                  > > > the account of the construction of the tabernacle, its work is
                  > > > attributed to two men, Bezalel and Oholiab.
                  > > >
                  > > > george
                  > > > gfsomsel
                  >
                • Andrew Fincke
                  Good point, George. Horner already saw this in David Loved Jonathan, 1977, though I don t have the specific page reference on hand. The curse on Joab s house
                  Message 8 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
                    Good point, George. Horner already saw this in David Loved Jonathan, 1977, though I don't have the specific page reference on hand. The curse on Joab's house is misplaced - the target is rather Saul, who fell by the sword, that is his own. The holder of the spindle is Jonathan - he "held" the spindle, David's, in their erotic act. Tod Linafelt gave a nice paper at SBL showing how the whole lament in 2 Sameul 1 is meant sarcastically - specifically verse 22 praising Saul's sword and Jonathan's bow as signs of their "heroism". Maybe somebody can help me with the part about the leprosy at 3:29, The "lacking bread" has a parallel in the curse at 1 Samuel 1:36.
                    Andrew Fincke

                    George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
                    Thanks for that. I don't know how I missed it when I looked it up. It seems there are only two instances of this word. Other apparent instances are actually of a homonym deriving from a different source. It would seem that your judgment that handling a spindle was considered a curse for a man is based on 2 Sam 3.29

                    29May [the guilt] fall upon the head of Joab and all his father’s house. May the house of Joab never be without someone suffering from a discharge or an eruption, or a male who handles the spindle, or one slain by the sword, or one lacking bread.”—

                    Jewish Publication Society. (1997, c1985). Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures : A new translation of the Holy Scriptures according to the traditional Hebrew text. Title facing t.p.: Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim = Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim. (2 Sa 3:29). Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society.

                    That is a passage I had nearly forgotten. It probably does have that implication.

                    george
                    gfsomsel
                    _________
                  • George F Somsel
                    The statement that David loved Jonathan does NOT necessarily imply a homosexual relationship as you have implied on numerous occasions. george gfsomsel ...
                    Message 9 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
                      The statement that David loved Jonathan does NOT necessarily imply a homosexual relationship as you have implied on numerous occasions.

                      george
                      gfsomsel
                      _________



                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: Andrew Fincke <finckean@...>
                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 7:48:13 AM
                      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers


                      Good point, George. Horner already saw this in David Loved Jonathan, 1977, though I don't have the specific page reference on hand. The curse on Joab's house is misplaced - the target is rather Saul, who fell by the sword, that is his own. The holder of the spindle is Jonathan - he "held" the spindle, David's, in their erotic act. Tod Linafelt gave a nice paper at SBL showing how the whole lament in 2 Sameul 1 is meant sarcastically - specifically verse 22 praising Saul's sword and Jonathan's bow as signs of their "heroism". Maybe somebody can help me with the part about the leprosy at 3:29, The "lacking bread" has a parallel in the curse at 1 Samuel 1:36.
                      Andrew Fincke

                      George F Somsel <gfsomsel@yahoo. com> wrote:
                      Thanks for that. I don't know how I missed it when I looked it up. It seems there are only two instances of this word. Other apparent instances are actually of a homonym deriving from a different source. It would seem that your judgment that handling a spindle was considered a curse for a man is based on 2 Sam 3.29

                      29May [the guilt] fall upon the head of Joab and all his father���s house. May the house of Joab never be without someone suffering from a discharge or an eruption, or a male who handles the spindle, or one slain by the sword, or one lacking bread.�� ���

                      Jewish Publication Society. (1997, c1985). Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures : A new translation of the Holy Scriptures according to the traditional Hebrew text. Title facing t.p.: Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim = Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim. (2 Sa 3:29). Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society.

                      That is a passage I had nearly forgotten. It probably does have that implication.

                      george
                      gfsomsel
                      _________






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                      Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
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                    • Jim West
                      ... Not only does it not necessarily connote such a relationship- but only someone looking for evidence of such a relationship could find it there. Best Jim
                      Message 10 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
                        George F Somsel wrote:
                        > The statement that David loved Jonathan does NOT necessarily imply a homosexual relationship as you have implied on numerous occasions.
                        >
                        > george
                        > gfsomsel
                        > _________

                        Not only does it not "necessarily" connote such a relationship- but only
                        someone looking for evidence of such a relationship could find it there.

                        Best

                        Jim



                        --
                        Jim West, ThD

                        http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
                        http://drjimwest.wordpress.com -- Weblog
                      • Andrew Fincke
                        But that is the point of Horner s book. The exact reference is Tom Horner, Jonathan Loved David, Philadelphia (Westminster), 1978, p. 38. Linafelt s point at
                        Message 11 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
                          But that is the point of Horner's book. The exact reference is Tom Horner, Jonathan Loved David, Philadelphia (Westminster), 1978, p. 38. Linafelt's point at SBL was that Saul's sword in the lament (2 Samuel 1:22), far from being the implement of a hero, was the tool in his suicide, and that Jonathan's bow was key to his renouncing his claim to the throne. With it he shot the arrows that warned David to flee execution - 1 Samuel 20:35ff. See Ackerman's, When Heroes Love and especially Nardelli's new book when it comes out.
                          Andrew Fincke

                          George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
                          The statement that David loved Jonathan does NOT necessarily imply a homosexual relationship as you have implied on numerous occasions.

                          george
                          gfsomsel
                          _________



                          ----- Original Message ----
                          From: Andrew Fincke
                          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 7:48:13 AM
                          Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers


                          Good point, George. Horner already saw this in David Loved Jonathan, 1977, though I don't have the specific page reference on hand. The curse on Joab's house is misplaced - the target is rather Saul, who fell by the sword, that is his own. The holder of the spindle is Jonathan - he "held" the spindle, David's, in their erotic act. Tod Linafelt gave a nice paper at SBL showing how the whole lament in 2 Sameul 1 is meant sarcastically - specifically verse 22 praising Saul's sword and Jonathan's bow as signs of their "heroism". Maybe somebody can help me with the part about the leprosy at 3:29, The "lacking bread" has a parallel in the curse at 1 Samuel 1:36.
                          Andrew Fincke

                          George F Somsel wrote:
                          Thanks for that. I don't know how I missed it when I looked it up. It seems there are only two instances of this word. Other apparent instances are actually of a homonym deriving from a different source. It would seem that your judgment that handling a spindle was considered a curse for a man is based on 2 Sam 3.29

                          29May [the guilt] fall upon the head of Joab and all his father’s house. May the house of Joab never be without someone suffering from a discharge or an eruption, or a male who handles the spindle, or one slain by the sword, or one lacking bread.†—

                          Jewish Publication Society. (1997, c1985). Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures : A new translation of the Holy Scriptures according to the traditional Hebrew text. Title facing t.p.: Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim = Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim. (2 Sa 3:29). Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society.

                          That is a passage I had nearly forgotten. It probably does have that implication.

                          george
                          gfsomsel
                          _________






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                          Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
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                        • Niels Peter Lemche
                          ... to ... execution - 1 Samuel 20:35ff. See Ackerman s, When Heroes Love and especially ... Maybe somebody here read too much Homer, and too little ANE
                          Message 12 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
                            > But that is the point of Horner's book. The exact reference is Tom
                            > Horner, Jonathan Loved David, Philadelphia (Westminster), 1978, p. 38.

                            > Linafelt's point at SBL was that Saul's sword in the lament (2 Samuel
                            > 1:22), far from being the implement of a hero, was the tool in his
                            > suicide, and that Jonathan's bow was key to his renouncing his claim
                            to
                            > the throne. With it he shot the arrows that warned David to flee
                            execution > - 1 Samuel >20:35ff. See Ackerman's, When Heroes Love and
                            especially
                            > Nardelli's new >book when it comes out.
                            > Andrew Fincke



                            Maybe somebody here read too much Homer, and too little ANE stuff. I
                            guess that some here will think of similar homosexual motives in
                            Gilgamesh. Homosexuality is mentioned here and there in the OT but they
                            simply don't like it. So what do we have: anything except a modern and
                            very colored reading of biblical texts? I guess that the same attitude
                            will turn most military history into a history of homosexuality, and we
                            are in no need of another Keagan to tell us that history.

                            Finally, and here we are again again again: on what background are we
                            discussing: a narrative and a dubious interpretation of the narrative,
                            or historical persons. Since we should only discuss the first thing
                            here, it must be narrative. We cannot use this text to say that David
                            was gay. WSE can discuss whether or not a novelist made him that. I
                            think that this novelist mostly show him as a friend of nice girls (or
                            rather women, as the narrative have him suing mostly married
                            women--Abigail, Batsheba, and perhaps even Micha).

                            Niels Peter Lemche

                            PS: a piece Paper never objects to what is written on it.
                          • Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
                            Those unconvinced by the erotic dimension of David s and Jonathan s aheb in 1 Sam 18 ff. have to explain us how it is possible for a simple bind of friendship
                            Message 13 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
                              Those unconvinced by the erotic dimension of David's and Jonathan's 'aheb in 1 Sam 18 ff. have to explain us how it is possible for a simple bind of friendship or homosociality to contain so many discrepancies with the Biblical norms and to verge so often on the erotic without incurring any blame and being praised as a wonder and a model by the subsequent tradition (the Liber Antiquitatum Biblicarum, which devotes its chap. 62 to the dealings of the two men, and the Targum of Jonathan). For example, how is it possible that their three successive berîts entail both unique or extraordinary phraseology (e.g. in 1 Sam 20:3, David makes an oath by the life of Yahweh and the life of the soul of Jonathan ; in 1 Sam 20:8, their bind is a yhwh berît) and a shifting in their status qua covenant partners, with this consequence that it is hardly feasible to tell who is the superior and who the vassal ? Better a difficult conclusion which tries to explain the facts than a conventional one which ignores everything which is unclear.

                              J.-F. Nardelli.

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Jim West
                              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 3:32 PM
                              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers



                              Not only does it not "necessarily" connote such a relationship- but only
                              someone looking for evidence of such a relationship could find it there.

                              Best

                              Jim

                              --
                              Jim West, ThD
                            • Peter T. Daniels
                              Nor, of course, is that interpretation excluded. -- Peter T. Daniels grammatim@verizon.net ... From: George F Somsel To:
                              Message 14 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
                                Nor, of course, is that interpretation excluded.

                                --
                                Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...



                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...>
                                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 8:44:28 AM
                                Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers


                                The statement that David loved Jonathan does NOT necessarily imply a homosexual relationship as you have implied on numerous occasions.

                                george
                                gfsomsel
                                _________

                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: Andrew Fincke <finckean@...>
                                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 7:48:13 AM
                                Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers

                                Good point, George. Horner already saw this in David Loved Jonathan, 1977, though I don't have the specific page reference on hand. The curse on Joab's house is misplaced - the target is rather Saul, who fell by the sword, that is his own. The holder of the spindle is Jonathan - he "held" the spindle, David's, in their erotic act. Tod Linafelt gave a nice paper at SBL showing how the whole lament in 2 Sameul 1 is meant sarcastically - specifically verse 22 praising Saul's sword and Jonathan's bow as signs of their "heroism". Maybe somebody can help me with the part about the leprosy at 3:29, The "lacking bread" has a parallel in the curse at 1 Samuel 1:36.
                                Andrew Fincke

                                George F Somsel <gfsomsel@yahoo. com> wrote:
                                Thanks for that. I don't know how I missed it when I looked it up. It seems there are only two instances of this word. Other apparent instances are actually of a homonym deriving from a different source. It would seem that your judgment that handling a spindle was considered a curse for a man is based on 2 Sam 3.29

                                29May [the guilt] fall upon the head of Joab and all his father���s house. May the house of Joab never be without someone suffering from a discharge or an eruption, or a male who handles the spindle, or one slain by the sword, or one lacking bread.�� ���

                                Jewish Publication Society. (1997, c1985). Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures : A new translation of the Holy Scriptures according to the traditional Hebrew text. Title facing t.p.: Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim = Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim. (2 Sa 3:29). Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society.

                                That is a passage I had nearly forgotten. It probably does have that implication.

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Kevin P. Edgecomb
                                ... KP Edgecomb writes: But this is depicted not as just a homosocial or homosexual relationship between two private citizens, but between the heir assumptive
                                Message 15 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
                                  Jean-Fabrice Nardelli wrote:
                                  > Those unconvinced by the erotic dimension of David's and Jonathan's 'aheb in 1 Sam 18 ff. have to explain us how it is possible for a simple bind of friendship or homosociality to contain so many discrepancies with the Biblical norms [snip]

                                  KP Edgecomb writes:
                                  But this is depicted not as just a homosocial or homosexual relationship between two private citizens, but between the heir assumptive and a later usurper, in a wider narrative context in which David's usurpation of the monarchy, taking it from the line of Saul via Jonathan and sons, is being justified. The rational gymnastics of such ex post facto justifications and their relationship to the events distorted by such justifications often simply don't correlate easily, particularly when it is the usurpers produce the narrative evidence. Witness Darius the Great's Behistun inscriptions: something unusual went on, but the precise details of his coup and usurpation are overlaid with a patriotic and religious sheen.

                                  Regardless, no sexual acts are described between the two, despite the eisegesis. The gay nineties are over. We can move on.

                                  Regards,
                                  Kevin P. Edgecomb
                                  Berkeley, California
                                • Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
                                  Precisely : Ackerman went at great lengths to demonstrate that there is an erotic apologetic in the latter part of Sam : no man sexually submissive to
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
                                    Precisely : Ackerman went at great lengths to demonstrate that there is an "erotic apologetic" in the latter part of Sam : no man sexually submissive to another was qualified to be king, and so David was legitimate enough to succeed to Saul. Thus, by "loving" David, Jonathan may well have been pictured by the narrator (echoeing no doubt some Davidic propaganda) as having renounced his masculinity and every right he possessed to inherit the throne of his father. I am not convinced that this is the right explanation, but it throws much light on a narrative which is crabbed, elliptic and obscure, and as such no one can afford to ignore it as if it were mere hariolations.

                                    If 1 Sam 18 ff. were as crystal-clear and straigthforward as some want to have it, why on earth burden its account of David's rise to the power with a covenant with Jonathan whose terms are exceedingly difficult to understand and a whole complex of affective notations between the heir and its putative rival, notations wich are so far from being devoid of sensuous overtones that they disrupt the well-established societal order of ancient Israel ? These pointers make a male, Jonathan, seem more important to David than his own wife and the one woman in the whole of the Bible who is described as having desired her husband, Michol : cui bono ?

                                    It is not by shutting one's eyes to interpretative difficulties that they are likely to disappear. To charge with dragging-in homosexuality and reading ancient texts through modern lens and prejudices interpreters who tentatively introduce a controlled amount of male-male affect in the affair of David with Jonathan because they consider that this hypothesis and only it resolves otherwise aporetic questions, is sheer nonsense. Homosexuality in the Old Testament remains as problematic as ever ; like it is the case for Homer (experto credite), it requires observation, more observation and yet more observation, certainly not apodictic proclamations pro or cons.

                                    J.-F. Nardelli.

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: Kevin P. Edgecomb
                                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 9:09 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers



                                    The rational gymnastics of such ex post facto justifications and their relationship to the events distorted by such justifications often simply don't correlate easily, particularly when it is the usurpers produce the narrative evidence.
                                  • Peter T. Daniels
                                    NPL -- note that they re talking about H o r n e r (a modern American) and not H o m e r. Screen fonts are sometimes not all they need to be. -- Peter T.
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
                                      NPL -- note that they're talking about H o r n e r (a modern American) and not H o m e r.

                                      Screen fonts are sometimes not all they need to be.
                                      --
                                      Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...

                                      ----- Original Message ----
                                      From: Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...>
                                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 11:17:11 AM
                                      Subject: SV: [ANE-2] weavers

                                      > But that is the point of Horner's book. The exact reference is Tom
                                      > Horner, Jonathan Loved David, Philadelphia (Westminster) , 1978, p. 38.

                                      > Linafelt's point at SBL was that Saul's sword in the lament (2 Samuel
                                      > 1:22), far from being the implement of a hero, was the tool in his
                                      > suicide, and that Jonathan's bow was key to his renouncing his claim
                                      to
                                      > the throne. With it he shot the arrows that warned David to flee
                                      execution > - 1 Samuel >20:35ff. See Ackerman's, When Heroes Love and
                                      especially
                                      > Nardelli's new >book when it comes out.
                                      > Andrew Fincke

                                      Maybe somebody here read too much Homer, and too little ANE stuff. I
                                      guess that some here will think of similar homosexual motives in
                                      Gilgamesh. Homosexuality is mentioned here and there in the OT but they
                                      simply don't like it. So what do we have: anything except a modern and
                                      very colored reading of biblical texts? I guess that the same attitude
                                      will turn most military history into a history of homosexuality, and we
                                      are in no need of another Keagan to tell us that history.

                                      Finally, and here we are again again again: on what background are we
                                      discussing: a narrative and a dubious interpretation of the narrative,
                                      or historical persons. Since we should only discuss the first thing
                                      here, it must be narrative. We cannot use this text to say that David
                                      was gay. WSE can discuss whether or not a novelist made him that. I
                                      think that this novelist mostly show him as a friend of nice girls (or
                                      rather women, as the narrative have him suing mostly married
                                      women--Abigail, Batsheba, and perhaps even Micha).

                                      Niels Peter Lemche

                                      PS: a piece Paper never objects to what is written on it.
                                    • Niels Peter Lemche
                                      Well, if you want it so, no problem, and you might even be cited in support of the idea nourished by the late Frederick Cryer of comparing the story of David
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
                                        Well, if you want it so, no problem, and you might even be cited in
                                        support of the idea nourished by the late Frederick Cryer of comparing
                                        the story of David with the Alexander-novel. This could easily have been
                                        a problem, if the author wrote his David-novel in the Hellenistic
                                        Period. However, if you move into the field of historicity, I have
                                        nothing more to say.

                                        So let's stay with the novel, the only thing we have for sure. David has
                                        been accused for many "crimes", the murder of Abner, Ishbaal, not really
                                        Saul, and of stealing other men's wives. So why not of homosexuality
                                        otherwise forbidden in the HB.

                                        The verb "to love", 'ahab, may have this connotation. However, it is
                                        also covenant language or patronage language as shown many years ago by
                                        Herbert Huffmon. So the sequence may only indicate that in their
                                        covenantal relationship, David and Jonathan were bound by the "love"
                                        demanded by the characters entering the covenant. The client is demanded
                                        to "love" his patron. Well, I suppose that religion demands the believer
                                        to "love" his divine lord as well.

                                        There are others explanations for the plot making Michal loving David,
                                        among them the eventuality that their relationship was rather "tricky",
                                        when David demanded her to divorce her husband, and later let her
                                        barren. It might be difficult to see traces of apologies for
                                        homosexuality here. It seems that the crime is of a different character.

                                        I hope that this will be deemed biased, because then, some people may
                                        have a problem demanding the text to say exactly what they wish it to
                                        say.


                                        Niels Peter Lemche
                                      • Niels Peter Lemche
                                        Great! It is getting late over here, so I bid you good night. However, the relationship between Achilleus and Patroklos (or is it Patrokles--it is too late to
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
                                          Great! It is getting late over here, so I bid you good night.

                                          However, the relationship between Achilleus and Patroklos (or is it Patrokles--it is too late to get to my Iliad) may be a good comparison, and it is probably time for our Mesopotamian friends to make their comment on the relationship between Gilgamesh and Enkidu.

                                          Niels Peter Lemche


                                          -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                          Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Peter T. Daniels
                                          Sendt: 6. december 2006 00:06
                                          Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                          Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] weavers

                                          NPL -- note that they're talking about H o r n e r (a modern American) and not H o m e r.

                                          Screen fonts are sometimes not all they need to be.
                                          --
                                          Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
                                        • Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
                                          Niels, you can t stick to the notion that the client is demanded to love his patron , because this would be neither a hesed nor a berît, but a loyalty
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
                                            Niels, you can't stick to the notion that "the client is demanded to 'love' his patron", because this would be neither a hesed nor a berît, but a loyalty treaty, which is quite another thing (an adjuration). In the loyalty treaty, the weaker part binds himself willingly to the stronger one by making an oath of loyalty, that is, unconditional obedience ; then he will "love" his patron or suzerain more than his own life and family. If you're right, then the Samuel narrator went badly astray in calling berît such a proclamation of Jonathan vis-à-vis David ; this seems impossible to me. Furthermore, despite his victory over Goliath, David is still far outranked by Jonathan at the precise moment when, in 1 Sam 18:3, Saul's son, being the crown prince (to put the matter anachronically), decides to lower himself down and bind himself to the son of Jesse "because he loved him like his own soul". Berîts seldom wrap themselves up in such a sentimental language.

                                            Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
                                          • Lampros F. Kallenos
                                            ... The way to handle a spear is different from the way to handle a weaver s beam. You handle a spear by putting your fingers around it, and then you also have
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
                                              > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver’s beam
                                              > ... ...
                                              > The implication of this is that a weaver's beam was
                                              > significantly larger and heavier than the normal spear shaft.
                                              > Such a "weaver's beam" would be a significant implement for
                                              > any average woman to handle.
                                              >
                                              > gfsomsel


                                              The way to handle a spear is different from the way to handle a
                                              weaver's beam.

                                              You handle a spear by putting your fingers around it, and then
                                              you also have to lift and throw it. But a weaver's beam is about
                                              15-20 centimeters (six inches) long, and only has to be thrown or
                                              pushed among the threads to the other side of the weaving
                                              installation.

                                              So, I think what this phrase

                                              > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver’s beam

                                              intends to is only a reference to the diameter of the shaft, not
                                              to its weight. The weight is commented in the next phrase

                                              > his spear’s head weighed six hundred shekels of iron

                                              And so, a woman could be a weaver.


                                              .
                                              _______________________
                                              Lampros F. Kallenos "...EKANAN OISTRO THS ZWHS
                                              Idalion, Lefkosia TO FOBO TOU QANATOU"
                                              Kypros
                                              --
                                            • David Lorton
                                              ... And how often have we seen wording along the lines of click on this link for more information . . . in sans serif type . . . with very tight letter
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
                                                Peter T. Daniels wrote:
                                                >
                                                > NPL -- note that they're talking about H o r n e r (a modern American) and not H o m e r.
                                                >
                                                > Screen fonts are sometimes not all they need to be.
                                                > --
                                                > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...

                                                And how often have we seen wording along the lines of "click on this
                                                link for more information" . . . in sans serif type . . . with very
                                                tight letter spacing.

                                                A propos of this topic of homosexual weavers (or kings, or whoever) . .
                                                . is it really appropriate, on this scholarly list, for people to be
                                                interpreting biblical texts solely on the basis of English-language
                                                translations? And with no citations of relevant literature in any of
                                                the major languages of scholarship in our fields?

                                                David Lorton
                                                Baltimore, MD
                                              • George F Somsel
                                                That would seem to solve a difficulty in reconciling the ABD article stating that women did the weaving with the physical realities that they would not be able
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
                                                  That would seem to solve a difficulty in reconciling the ABD article stating that women did the weaving with the physical realities that they would not be able to handle something so heavy as what Goliath's spear was represented as being.

                                                  george
                                                  gfsomsel
                                                  _________



                                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                                  From: Lampros F. Kallenos <xalkinos@...>
                                                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 8:04:28 PM
                                                  Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers


                                                  > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver�s beam
                                                  > ... ...
                                                  > The implication of this is that a weaver's beam was
                                                  > significantly larger and heavier than the normal spear shaft.
                                                  > Such a "weaver's beam" would be a significant implement for
                                                  > any average woman to handle.
                                                  >
                                                  > gfsomsel


                                                  The way to handle a spear is different from the way to handle a
                                                  weaver's beam.

                                                  You handle a spear by putting your fingers around it, and then
                                                  you also have to lift and throw it. But a weaver's beam is about
                                                  15-20 centimeters (six inches) long, and only has to be thrown or
                                                  pushed among the threads to the other side of the weaving
                                                  installation.

                                                  So, I think what this phrase

                                                  > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver�s beam

                                                  intends to is only a reference to the diameter of the shaft, not
                                                  to its weight. The weight is commented in the next phrase

                                                  > his spear�s head weighed six hundred shekels of iron

                                                  And so, a woman could be a weaver.


                                                  .
                                                  _______________________
                                                  Lampros F. Kallenos "...EKANAN OISTRO THS ZWHS
                                                  Idalion, Lefkosia TO FOBO TOU QANATOU"
                                                  Kypros
                                                  --



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                                                • goranson@duke.edu
                                                  Two perhaps relevant books: Though this deals mainly with later times, it probably includes some earlier bibliography (and cf. some of her articles and reviews
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Dec 6, 2006
                                                    Two perhaps relevant books:

                                                    Though this deals mainly with later times, it probably includes some earlier
                                                    bibliography (and cf. some of her articles and reviews for debate on weaving
                                                    gender issues):
                                                    Spinning fantasies : rabbis, gender, and history /
                                                    Miriam Peskowitz 1997
                                                    English Book xiv, 249 p. ; 24 cm.
                                                    Berkeley : University of California Press, ; ISBN: 0520208315
                                                    0520209672 (pbk.)

                                                    This one includes some more ancient material (in both senses) as well as at
                                                    least some discussion of women weavers:
                                                    Archéologie des textiles des origines au Ve siècle :
                                                    actes du colloque de Lattes, octobre 1999 /
                                                    Dominique Cardon; Michel Feugère 2000
                                                    French Book 290 p., 4 p. of plates : ill. (some col.), maps ; 30 cm.
                                                    Montagnac : M. Mergoil,

                                                    though I returned it to interlibrary loan just days ago, and didn't
                                                    read it all.
                                                    By the way, I got it to copy "The textiles from Khirbet Qazone (Jordan)" by H.
                                                    Granger-Taylor" p. 149-62 and 1 colour plate. Based of the dating of these
                                                    Lisan cemetery textiles, it appears that this cemetery is (at least in this
                                                    sample) later than the second temple Qumran burials. Though the two share some
                                                    similarities, the two cemeteries differ in some other significant respects
                                                    (e.g., besides dating, grave goods, and proportions of men, women, and
                                                    children).

                                                    best
                                                    Stephen Goranson
                                                    http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
                                                  • Kevin P. Edgecomb
                                                    Yigael Yadin in his Art of Warfare in Biblical Lands, 2:354-355, suggests the shaft of his spear like a weaver s beam in 1 Samuel 17.7 was rather to indicate
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Dec 6, 2006
                                                      Yigael Yadin in his Art of Warfare in Biblical Lands, 2:354-355, suggests
                                                      the "shaft of his spear like a weaver's beam" in 1 Samuel 17.7 was rather to
                                                      indicate that, like the "leash rod" of a loom, it possessed a cord wrapped
                                                      around the shaft which created a short loop. The illustrations given are for
                                                      a model of a primitve Greek loom, a drawing of a modern leash rod's loops,
                                                      and a black figure kylix of a hoplite with precisely such a spear and his
                                                      finger through the loop. The caption reads: "A typical Aegean javelin has a
                                                      loop and cord wound round the shaft so that the weapon could be hurled a
                                                      greater distance with greater stability by virtue of the resultant spin. The
                                                      Greeks and Romans called such a javelin 'the loop.'"

                                                      It's such a fine solution to the problem, that probably means it's wrong.

                                                      Regards,
                                                      Kevin P. Edgecomb
                                                      Berkeley, California

                                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                                      > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                      > Behalf Of George F Somsel
                                                      > Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 8:40 PM
                                                      > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers
                                                      >
                                                      > That would seem to solve a difficulty in reconciling the ABD
                                                      > article stating that women did the weaving with the physical
                                                      > realities that they would not be able to handle something so
                                                      > heavy as what Goliath's spear was represented as being.
                                                      >
                                                      > george
                                                      > gfsomsel
                                                      > _________
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > ----- Original Message ----
                                                      > From: Lampros F. Kallenos <xalkinos@...>
                                                      > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 8:04:28 PM
                                                      > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver¢s beam ... ...
                                                      > > The implication of this is that a weaver's beam was significantly
                                                      > > larger and heavier than the normal spear shaft.
                                                      > > Such a "weaver's beam" would be a significant implement for any
                                                      > > average woman to handle.
                                                      > >
                                                      > > gfsomsel
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > The way to handle a spear is different from the way to handle
                                                      > a weaver's beam.
                                                      >
                                                      > You handle a spear by putting your fingers around it, and
                                                      > then you also have to lift and throw it. But a weaver's beam
                                                      > is about 15-20 centimeters (six inches) long, and only has to
                                                      > be thrown or pushed among the threads to the other side of
                                                      > the weaving installation.
                                                      >
                                                      > So, I think what this phrase
                                                      >
                                                      > > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver¢s beam
                                                      >
                                                      > intends to is only a reference to the diameter of the shaft,
                                                      > not to its weight. The weight is commented in the next phrase
                                                      >
                                                      > > his spear¢s head weighed six hundred shekels of iron
                                                      >
                                                      > And so, a woman could be a weaver.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > .
                                                      > _______________________
                                                      > Lampros F. Kallenos "...EKANAN OISTRO THS ZWHS
                                                      > Idalion, Lefkosia TO FOBO TOU QANATOU"
                                                      > Kypros
                                                      > --
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
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                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
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                                                      > ______________________
                                                      > Cheap talk?
                                                      > Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
                                                      > http://voice.yahoo.com
                                                      >
                                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      >
                                                      >
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                                                      >
                                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                    • Richard S. Ellis
                                                      ... What you are thinking about is a shuttle, which I don t think anyone (in English) would refer to as a beam. If beam is a good translation, it is more
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Dec 6, 2006
                                                        Lampros F. Kallenos wrote:
                                                        > > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver’s beam
                                                        > > ... ...
                                                        > > The implication of this is that a weaver's beam was
                                                        > > significantly larger and heavier than the normal spear shaft.
                                                        > > Such a "weaver's beam" would be a significant implement for
                                                        > > any average woman to handle.
                                                        > >
                                                        > > gfsomsel
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > The way to handle a spear is different from the way to handle a
                                                        > weaver's beam.
                                                        >
                                                        > You handle a spear by putting your fingers around it, and then
                                                        > you also have to lift and throw it. But a weaver's beam is about
                                                        > 15-20 centimeters (six inches) long, and only has to be thrown or
                                                        > pushed among the threads to the other side of the weaving
                                                        > installation.

                                                        What you are thinking about is a shuttle, which I don't think anyone (in
                                                        English) would refer to as a beam. If "beam" is a good translation, it
                                                        is more likely to refer either to one of the two beams of a ground loom
                                                        or of an upright loom, or to the warp beam of a warp-weighted loom. In
                                                        any case the beam would not be moved while the loom was in use. For all
                                                        this stuff you might refer to:

                                                        Barber, Elizabeth J. W. 1990. Prehistoric Textiles: The Development of
                                                        Cloth in the Neolithic and Bronze Ages with Special Reference to the
                                                        Aegean. Princeton: Princeton University Press.

                                                        Dick Ellis
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