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Re: [ANE-2] weavers

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  • sbudin@camden.rutgers.edu
    Greetings, Actually, the men in question (qede$im) are not prostitutes, but cult functionaries. So you have male priests (of some sort) in the cult of Asherah
    Message 1 of 30 , Dec 4, 2006
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      Greetings,

      Actually, the men in question (qede$im) are not prostitutes, but cult
      functionaries. So you have male priests (of some sort) in the cult of Asherah
      and female weavers.
      Also, if I remember correctly, in Exodus it is the women who provide all the
      textiles for the making of the Tent of Meeting. So there are several references
      to female weavers (or, at least, textile workers) in that context. I can dig up
      exact citations if needed.

      All Best! -Stephanie Budin



      Quoting "Lisbeth S. Fried" <lizfried@...>:

      > Dear All,
      > Most of the references to weavers in the OT (all but one) are in the
      > masculine. Do I assume from this that most weaving was done by men? The other
      > reference is to women weaving in the temple for Asherah. That phrase is
      > paired with male prostitutes. Does that imply a reversal of roles, that men
      > usually weave and women are usually prostitutes?
      > Who did the weaving in the ANE?
      > Thanks,
      > Liz Fried
      >
      >


      "Maybe we can link up with someone who’s meditating and download enlightenment!"
      -Tachikoma
    • victor avigdor hurowitz
      I haven t checked th ereferences, but here are some things of the top of my head. If you look in the tAbernacle pericope you will find that women are spinners,
      Message 2 of 30 , Dec 4, 2006
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        I haven't checked th ereferences, but here are some things of the top of
        my head.
        If you look in the tAbernacle pericope you will find that women are
        spinners, while it is bezalel and oholiab who do the weaving. Also the
        e$et hayil holds a pelek in her hand, and holding a
        pelek is a curse on a man. What is the relationship between spinners and
        weavers? Can weaving be a more skilled art than spinning? In general,
        check out the relationship between rqm and t.wy

        Victor
        BGU



        On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, Lisbeth S. Fried wrote:

        > Dear All,
        > Most of the references to weavers in the OT (all but one) are in the masculine. Do I assume from this that most weaving was done by men? The other reference is to women weaving in the temple for Asherah. That phrase is paired with male prostitutes. Does that imply a reversal of roles, that men usually weave and women are usually prostitutes?
        > Who did the weaving in the ANE?
        > Thanks,
        > Liz Fried
        >
        >
      • victor avigdor hurowitz
        you and Liz might be interested in S. Zawadaski, Garments of the Gods. Studies on the Textile Industry and the Pantheon of Sippar according to the Texts from
        Message 3 of 30 , Dec 4, 2006
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          you and Liz might be interested in S. Zawadaski, Garments of the
          Gods. Studies on the Textile Industry and the Pantheon of Sippar according
          to the Texts from the Ebabbar Archive, OBO 218, Fribourg, Goettingen 2006
          Victor
          BGU



          On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, George F Somsel wrote:

          > Large numbers of women of the lower social classes were employed in temple and palace workshops. Some were free, many slaves. Here too they worked in traditional feminine occupations, in the kitchen as cooks, pastry makers, and menials; in the textile industry as spinners and weavers. Usually all were under the supervision of men. Free women might have brought their children with them. Women of the poorer classes must have helped their husbands in whatever occupation they were in, for there was no sequestering of women. Women might also have worked in various agricultural jobs in palace and temple fields and with animals.
          >
          > Freedman, D. N. (1996, c1992). The Anchor Bible Dictionary (6:949). New York: Doubleday.
          >
          > This would seem to indicate that in the ANE women may have done the work but the supervision was male. Perhaps this is so with regard to weaving, but I recall a passage in the OT which might call this into question (not simply on the basis of grammatical gender). In 1 Sam 17.7 it states regarding the accoutrements of Goliath
          >
          > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver¢s beam, and his spear¢s head weighed six hundred shekels of iron; and his shield-bearer went before him.
          >
          > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (1 Sa 17:7). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
          >
          > The implication of this is that a weaver's beam was significantly larger and heavier than the normal spear shaft. Such a "weaver's beam" would be a significant implement for any average woman to handle (though I've known a few who would be up to the task). Of course, in the account of the construction of the tabernacle, its work is attributed to two men, Bezalel and Oholiab.
          >
          > george
          > gfsomsel
          > _________
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message ----
          > From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...>
          > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Monday, December 4, 2006 11:59:39 AM
          > Subject: [ANE-2] weavers
          >
          > Dear All,
          > Most of the references to weavers in the OT (all but one) are in the masculine. Do I assume from this that most weaving was done by men? The other reference is to women weaving in the temple for Asherah. That phrase is paired with male prostitutes. Does that imply a reversal of roles, that men usually weave and women are usually prostitutes?
          > Who did the weaving in the ANE?
          > Thanks,
          > Liz Fried
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ____________________________________________________________________________________
          > Do you Yahoo!?
          > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
          > http://new.mail.yahoo.com
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
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        • George F Somsel
          30And Moses said to the Israelites: See, the Lord has singled out by name Bezalel, son of Uri son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. 31He has endowed
          Message 4 of 30 , Dec 4, 2006
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            30And Moses said to the Israelites: See, the Lord has singled out by name Bezalel, son of Uri son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. 31He has endowed him with a divine spirit of skill, ability, and knowledge in every kind of craft 32and has inspired him to make designs for work in gold, silver, and copper, 33to cut stones for setting and to carve wood—to work in every kind of designer’s craft—34and to give directions. He and Oholiab son of Ahisamach of the tribe of Dan 35have been endowed with the skill to do any work—of the carver, the designer, the embroiderer in blue, purple, crimson yarns, and in fine linen, and of the weaver—as workers in all crafts and as makers of designs.

            Jewish Publication Society. (1997, c1985). Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures : A new translation of the Holy Scriptures according to the traditional Hebrew text. Title facing t.p.: Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim = Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim. (Ex 35:30). Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society.

            I might mention that according to Acts St Paul was himself a tentmaker

            After this Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. 2 There he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to see them, 3 and, because he was of the same trade, he stayed with them, and they worked together—by trade they were tentmakers. 4 Every sabbath he would argue in the synagogue and would try to convince Jews and Greeks.

            The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Ac 18:1). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

            Victor,

            Your rendering makes it seem that you are referring to a word Pe Lamed Kap, could it be Pe Lamed Het?

            george
            gfsomsel
            _________



            ----- Original Message ----
            From: victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@...>
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, December 4, 2006 1:15:38 PM
            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers

            I haven't checked th ereferences, but here are some things of the top of
            my head.
            If you look in the tAbernacle pericope you will find that women are
            spinners, while it is bezalel and oholiab who do the weaving. Also the
            e$et hayil holds a pelek in her hand, and holding a
            pelek is a curse on a man. What is the relationship between spinners and
            weavers? Can weaving be a more skilled art than spinning? In general,
            check out the relationship between rqm and t.wy

            Victor
            BGU

            On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, Lisbeth S. Fried wrote:

            > Dear All,
            > Most of the references to weavers in the OT (all but one) are in the masculine. Do I assume from this that most weaving was done by men? The other reference is to women weaving in the temple for Asherah. That phrase is paired with male prostitutes. Does that imply a reversal of roles, that men usually weave and women are usually prostitutes?
            > Who did the weaving in the ANE?
            > Thanks,
            > Liz Fried
            >
          • Lisbeth S. Fried
            This looks great! Thanks, Victor. Liz Fried ... victor ... temple and palace ... traditional feminine ... textile industry as ... women might ... have helped
            Message 5 of 30 , Dec 4, 2006
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              This looks great! Thanks, Victor.
              Liz Fried

              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              victor
              > avigdor hurowitz
              > Sent: Monday, December 04, 2006 1:20 PM
              > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers
              >
              > you and Liz might be interested in S. Zawadaski, Garments of the
              > Gods. Studies on the Textile Industry and the Pantheon of Sippar according
              > to the Texts from the Ebabbar Archive, OBO 218, Fribourg, Goettingen 2006
              > Victor
              > BGU
              >
              >
              >
              > On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, George F Somsel wrote:
              >
              > > Large numbers of women of the lower social classes were employed in
              temple and palace
              > workshops. Some were free, many slaves. Here too they worked in
              traditional feminine
              > occupations, in the kitchen as cooks, pastry makers, and menials; in the
              textile industry as
              > spinners and weavers. Usually all were under the supervision of men. Free
              women might
              > have brought their children with them. Women of the poorer classes must
              have helped their
              > husbands in whatever occupation they were in, for there was no
              sequestering of women.
              > Women might also have worked in various agricultural jobs in palace and
              temple fields and
              > with animals.
              > >
              > > Freedman, D. N. (1996, c1992). The Anchor Bible Dictionary (6:949). New
              York:
              > Doubleday.
              > >
              > > This would seem to indicate that in the ANE women may have done the work
              but the
              > supervision was male. Perhaps this is so with regard to weaving, but I
              recall a passage in
              > the OT which might call this into question (not simply on the basis of
              grammatical gender).
              > In 1 Sam 17.7 it states regarding the accoutrements of Goliath
              > >
              > > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver¢s beam, and his spear¢s head
              weighed six
              > hundred shekels of iron; and his shield-bearer went before him.
              > >
              > > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (1 Sa 17:7).
              Nashville: Thomas
              > Nelson Publishers.
              > >
              > > The implication of this is that a weaver's beam was significantly larger
              and heavier than
              > the normal spear shaft. Such a "weaver's beam" would be a significant
              implement for any
              > average woman to handle (though I've known a few who would be up to the
              task). Of
              > course, in the account of the construction of the tabernacle, its work is
              attributed to two
              > men, Bezalel and Oholiab.
              > >
              > > george
              > > gfsomsel
              > > _________
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message ----
              > > From: Lisbeth S. Fried <lizfried@...>
              > > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Monday, December 4, 2006 11:59:39 AM
              > > Subject: [ANE-2] weavers
              > >
              > > Dear All,
              > > Most of the references to weavers in the OT (all but one) are in the
              masculine. Do I
              > assume from this that most weaving was done by men? The other reference is
              to women
              > weaving in the temple for Asherah. That phrase is paired with male
              prostitutes. Does that
              > imply a reversal of roles, that men usually weave and women are usually
              prostitutes?
              > > Who did the weaving in the ANE?
              > > Thanks,
              > > Liz Fried
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > __________________________________________________________________________
              > __________
              > > Do you Yahoo!?
              > > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
              > > http://new.mail.yahoo.com
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • victor avigdor hurowitz
              the word for spindle is pe-lamed-kaf and NOT peh-lamed-het which means to split. The word for spinning in t.et-waw-heh The word for weaving is oreg
              Message 6 of 30 , Dec 4, 2006
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                the word for spindle is pe-lamed-kaf and NOT peh-lamed-het which means to
                split.

                The word for spinning in t.et-waw-heh
                The word for weaving is 'oreg
                re$-qof-mem implies embroidering
                there is also somthing called ho$eb which seems to be a type of weaving by
                which designs are put in the fabric.
                The woman spin raw material into thread while the men weave it into cloth,
                some of it with designs, either embroidered.
                I'm not a real expert in these matters but the individual terms express
                different activities in the cloth making process. The women who make
                battim for the asherah are doing oreg and not t.wh
                Best,
                Victor






                On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, George F Somsel wrote:

                > 30And Moses said to the Israelites: See, the Lord has singled out by name Bezalel, son of Uri son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. 31He has endowed him with a divine spirit of skill, ability, and knowledge in every kind of craft 32and has inspired him to make designs for work in gold, silver, and copper, 33to cut stones for setting and to carve wood—to work in every kind of designer’s craft—34and to give directions. He and Oholiab son of Ahisamach of the tribe of Dan 35have been endowed with the skill to do any work—of the carver, the designer, the embroiderer in blue, purple, crimson yarns, and in fine linen, and of the weaver—as workers in all crafts and as makers of designs.
                >
                > Jewish Publication Society. (1997, c1985). Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures : A new translation of the Holy Scriptures according to the traditional Hebrew text. Title facing t.p.: Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim = Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim. (Ex 35:30). Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society.
                >
                > I might mention that according to Acts St Paul was himself a tentmaker
                >
                > After this Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. 2 There he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to see them, 3 and, because he was of the same trade, he stayed with them, and they worked together—by trade they were tentmakers. 4 Every sabbath he would argue in the synagogue and would try to convince Jews and Greeks.
                >
                > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Ac 18:1). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
                >
                > Victor,
                >
                > Your rendering makes it seem that you are referring to a word Pe Lamed Kap, could it be Pe Lamed Het?
                >
                > george
                > gfsomsel
                > _________
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message ----
                > From: victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@...>
                > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Monday, December 4, 2006 1:15:38 PM
                > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers
                >
                > I haven't checked th ereferences, but here are some things of the top of
                > my head.
                > If you look in the tAbernacle pericope you will find that women are
                > spinners, while it is bezalel and oholiab who do the weaving. Also the
                > e$et hayil holds a pelek in her hand, and holding a
                > pelek is a curse on a man. What is the relationship between spinners and
                > weavers? Can weaving be a more skilled art than spinning? In general,
                > check out the relationship between rqm and t.wy
                >
                > Victor
                > BGU
                >
                > On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, Lisbeth S. Fried wrote:
                >
                > > Dear All,
                > > Most of the references to weavers in the OT (all but one) are in the masculine. Do I assume from this that most weaving was done by men? The other reference is to women weaving in the temple for Asherah. That phrase is paired with male prostitutes. Does that imply a reversal of roles, that men usually weave and women are usually prostitutes?
                > > Who did the weaving in the ANE?
                > > Thanks,
                > > Liz Fried
                > >
                >
              • Robert M Whiting
                ... For Mesopotamia in the Ur III period, see also, in general, H. Waetzoldt, Untersuchungung zur neusumerischen Textilindustrie (Rome 1972), and, in specific,
                Message 7 of 30 , Dec 4, 2006
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                  On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, victor avigdor hurowitz wrote:

                  > you and Liz might be interested in S. Zawadaski, Garments of the
                  > Gods. Studies on the Textile Industry and the Pantheon of Sippar according
                  > to the Texts from the Ebabbar Archive, OBO 218, Fribourg, Goettingen 2006
                  > Victor
                  > BGU

                  For Mesopotamia in the Ur III period, see also, in general, H. Waetzoldt,
                  Untersuchungung zur neusumerischen Textilindustrie (Rome 1972), and, in
                  specific, A. Uchitel, "Women at Work: Weavers of Lagash and Spinners of
                  San Luis Gonzaga" in S. Parpola and R. Whiting (eds.) Sex and Gender in
                  the Ancient Near East, CRRAI 47 (Helsinki, 2002), 621-31.

                  George pretty much has it right. Women did most of the work of weaving
                  and men did the supervision.

                  Bob Whiting
                  whiting@...

                  >
                  > On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, George F Somsel wrote:
                  >
                  > > Large numbers of women of the lower social classes were employed in
                  > > temple and palace workshops. Some were free, many slaves. Here too
                  > > they worked in traditional feminine occupations, in the kitchen as
                  > > cooks, pastry makers, and menials; in the textile industry as spinners
                  > > and weavers. Usually all were under the supervision of men. Free women
                  > > might have brought their children with them. Women of the poorer
                  > > classes must have helped their husbands in whatever occupation they
                  > > were in, for there was no sequestering of women. Women might also have
                  > > worked in various agricultural jobs in palace and temple fields and
                  > > with animals.
                  > >
                  > > Freedman, D. N. (1996, c1992). The Anchor Bible Dictionary (6:949).
                  > > New York: Doubleday.
                  > >
                  > > This would seem to indicate that in the ANE women may have done the
                  > > work but the supervision was male. Perhaps this is so with regard to
                  > > weaving, but I recall a passage in the OT which might call this into
                  > > question (not simply on the basis of grammatical gender). In 1 Sam
                  > > 17.7 it states regarding the accoutrements of Goliath
                  > >
                  > > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver¢s beam, and his spear¢s head
                  > > weighed six hundred shekels of iron; and his shield-bearer went before
                  > > him.
                  > >
                  > > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (1 Sa 17:7).
                  > > Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
                  > >
                  > > The implication of this is that a weaver's beam was significantly
                  > > larger and heavier than the normal spear shaft. Such a "weaver's
                  > > beam" would be a significant implement for any average woman to handle
                  > > (though I've known a few who would be up to the task). Of course, in
                  > > the account of the construction of the tabernacle, its work is
                  > > attributed to two men, Bezalel and Oholiab.
                  > >
                  > > george
                  > > gfsomsel
                • George F Somsel
                  Thanks for that. I don t know how I missed it when I looked it up. It seems there are only two instances of this word. Other apparent instances are actually
                  Message 8 of 30 , Dec 4, 2006
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                    Thanks for that. I don't know how I missed it when I looked it up. It seems there are only two instances of this word. Other apparent instances are actually of a homonym deriving from a different source. It would seem that your judgment that handling a spindle was considered a curse for a man is based on 2 Sam 3.29

                    29May [the guilt] fall upon the head of Joab and all his father’s house. May the house of Joab never be without someone suffering from a discharge or an eruption, or a male who handles the spindle, or one slain by the sword, or one lacking bread.”—

                    Jewish Publication Society. (1997, c1985). Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures : A new translation of the Holy Scriptures according to the traditional Hebrew text. Title facing t.p.: Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim = Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim. (2 Sa 3:29). Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society.

                    That is a passage I had nearly forgotten. It probably does have that implication.

                    george
                    gfsomsel
                    _________



                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@...>
                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, December 4, 2006 3:14:55 PM
                    Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers


                    the word for spindle is pe-lamed-kaf and NOT peh-lamed-het which means to
                    split.

                    The word for spinning in t.et-waw-heh
                    The word for weaving is 'oreg
                    re$-qof-mem implies embroidering
                    there is also somthing called ho$eb which seems to be a type of weaving by
                    which designs are put in the fabric.
                    The woman spin raw material into thread while the men weave it into cloth,
                    some of it with designs, either embroidered.
                    I'm not a real expert in these matters but the individual terms express
                    different activities in the cloth making process. The women who make
                    battim for the asherah are doing oreg and not t.wh
                    Best,
                    Victor






                    On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, George F Somsel wrote:

                    > 30And Moses said to the Israelites: See, the Lord has singled out by name Bezalel, son of Uri son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah. 31He has endowed him with a divine spirit of skill, ability, and knowledge in every kind of craft 32and has inspired him to make designs for work in gold, silver, and copper, 33to cut stones for setting and to carve wood—to work in every kind of designer’s craft—34and to give directions. He and Oholiab son of Ahisamach of the tribe of Dan 35have been endowed with the skill to do any work—of the carver, the designer, the embroiderer in blue, purple, crimson yarns, and in fine linen, and of the weaver—as workers in all crafts and as makers of designs.
                    >
                    > Jewish Publication Society. (1997, c1985). Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures : A new translation of the Holy Scriptures according to the traditional Hebrew text. Title facing t.p.: Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim = Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim. (Ex 35:30). Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society.
                    >
                    > I might mention that according to Acts St Paul was himself a tentmaker
                    >
                    > After this Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. 2 There he found a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to see them, 3 and, because he was of the same trade, he stayed with them, and they worked together—by trade they were tentmakers. 4 Every sabbath he would argue in the synagogue and would try to convince Jews and Greeks.
                    >
                    > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Ac 18:1). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
                    >
                    > Victor,
                    >
                    > Your rendering makes it seem that you are referring to a word Pe Lamed Kap, could it be Pe Lamed Het?
                    >
                    > george
                    > gfsomsel
                    > _________
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message ----
                    > From: victor avigdor hurowitz <victor@...>
                    > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Monday, December 4, 2006 1:15:38 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers
                    >
                    > I haven't checked th ereferences, but here are some things of the top of
                    > my head.
                    > If you look in the tAbernacle pericope you will find that women are
                    > spinners, while it is bezalel and oholiab who do the weaving. Also the
                    > e$et hayil holds a pelek in her hand, and holding a
                    > pelek is a curse on a man. What is the relationship between spinners and
                    > weavers? Can weaving be a more skilled art than spinning? In general,
                    > check out the relationship between rqm and t.wy
                    >
                    > Victor
                    > BGU
                    >
                    > On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, Lisbeth S. Fried wrote:
                    >
                    > > Dear All,
                    > > Most of the references to weavers in the OT (all but one) are in the masculine. Do I assume from this that most weaving was done by men? The other reference is to women weaving in the temple for Asherah. That phrase is paired with male prostitutes. Does that imply a reversal of roles, that men usually weave and women are usually prostitutes?
                    > > Who did the weaving in the ANE?
                    > > Thanks,
                    > > Liz Fried
                    > >
                    >




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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Marc Cooper
                    I would just add that while women seem to be the weavers in ED III and Sargonic Mesopotamia, female supervisors do appear in the tablets, though in Ur III and
                    Message 9 of 30 , Dec 4, 2006
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                      I would just add that while women seem to be the weavers in ED III
                      and Sargonic Mesopotamia, female supervisors do appear in the
                      tablets, though in Ur III and afterwards supervisors were always
                      male to my knowledge.

                      Marc Cooper
                      Missouri State University

                      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Robert M Whiting <whiting@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, victor avigdor hurowitz wrote:
                      >
                      > > you and Liz might be interested in S. Zawadaski, Garments of the
                      > > Gods. Studies on the Textile Industry and the Pantheon of Sippar
                      according
                      > > to the Texts from the Ebabbar Archive, OBO 218, Fribourg,
                      Goettingen 2006
                      > > Victor
                      > > BGU
                      >
                      > For Mesopotamia in the Ur III period, see also, in general, H.
                      Waetzoldt,
                      > Untersuchungung zur neusumerischen Textilindustrie (Rome 1972),
                      and, in
                      > specific, A. Uchitel, "Women at Work: Weavers of Lagash and
                      Spinners of
                      > San Luis Gonzaga" in S. Parpola and R. Whiting (eds.) Sex and
                      Gender in
                      > the Ancient Near East, CRRAI 47 (Helsinki, 2002), 621-31.
                      >
                      > George pretty much has it right. Women did most of the work of
                      weaving
                      > and men did the supervision.
                      >
                      > Bob Whiting
                      > whiting@...
                      >
                      > >
                      > > On Mon, 4 Dec 2006, George F Somsel wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > Large numbers of women of the lower social classes were
                      employed in
                      > > > temple and palace workshops. Some were free, many slaves. Here
                      too
                      > > > they worked in traditional feminine occupations, in the
                      kitchen as
                      > > > cooks, pastry makers, and menials; in the textile industry as
                      spinners
                      > > > and weavers. Usually all were under the supervision of men.
                      Free women
                      > > > might have brought their children with them. Women of the
                      poorer
                      > > > classes must have helped their husbands in whatever occupation
                      they
                      > > > were in, for there was no sequestering of women. Women might
                      also have
                      > > > worked in various agricultural jobs in palace and temple
                      fields and
                      > > > with animals.
                      > > >
                      > > > Freedman, D. N. (1996, c1992). The Anchor Bible Dictionary
                      (6:949).
                      > > > New York: Doubleday.
                      > > >
                      > > > This would seem to indicate that in the ANE women may have
                      done the
                      > > > work but the supervision was male. Perhaps this is so with
                      regard to
                      > > > weaving, but I recall a passage in the OT which might call
                      this into
                      > > > question (not simply on the basis of grammatical gender). In
                      1 Sam
                      > > > 17.7 it states regarding the accoutrements of Goliath
                      > > >
                      > > > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver¢s beam, and his spear¢
                      s head
                      > > > weighed six hundred shekels of iron; and his shield-bearer
                      went before
                      > > > him.
                      > > >
                      > > > The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (1 Sa
                      17:7).
                      > > > Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.
                      > > >
                      > > > The implication of this is that a weaver's beam was
                      significantly
                      > > > larger and heavier than the normal spear shaft. Such
                      a "weaver's
                      > > > beam" would be a significant implement for any average woman
                      to handle
                      > > > (though I've known a few who would be up to the task). Of
                      course, in
                      > > > the account of the construction of the tabernacle, its work is
                      > > > attributed to two men, Bezalel and Oholiab.
                      > > >
                      > > > george
                      > > > gfsomsel
                      >
                    • Andrew Fincke
                      Good point, George. Horner already saw this in David Loved Jonathan, 1977, though I don t have the specific page reference on hand. The curse on Joab s house
                      Message 10 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                        Good point, George. Horner already saw this in David Loved Jonathan, 1977, though I don't have the specific page reference on hand. The curse on Joab's house is misplaced - the target is rather Saul, who fell by the sword, that is his own. The holder of the spindle is Jonathan - he "held" the spindle, David's, in their erotic act. Tod Linafelt gave a nice paper at SBL showing how the whole lament in 2 Sameul 1 is meant sarcastically - specifically verse 22 praising Saul's sword and Jonathan's bow as signs of their "heroism". Maybe somebody can help me with the part about the leprosy at 3:29, The "lacking bread" has a parallel in the curse at 1 Samuel 1:36.
                        Andrew Fincke

                        George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
                        Thanks for that. I don't know how I missed it when I looked it up. It seems there are only two instances of this word. Other apparent instances are actually of a homonym deriving from a different source. It would seem that your judgment that handling a spindle was considered a curse for a man is based on 2 Sam 3.29

                        29May [the guilt] fall upon the head of Joab and all his father’s house. May the house of Joab never be without someone suffering from a discharge or an eruption, or a male who handles the spindle, or one slain by the sword, or one lacking bread.”—

                        Jewish Publication Society. (1997, c1985). Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures : A new translation of the Holy Scriptures according to the traditional Hebrew text. Title facing t.p.: Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim = Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim. (2 Sa 3:29). Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society.

                        That is a passage I had nearly forgotten. It probably does have that implication.

                        george
                        gfsomsel
                        _________
                      • George F Somsel
                        The statement that David loved Jonathan does NOT necessarily imply a homosexual relationship as you have implied on numerous occasions. george gfsomsel ...
                        Message 11 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                          The statement that David loved Jonathan does NOT necessarily imply a homosexual relationship as you have implied on numerous occasions.

                          george
                          gfsomsel
                          _________



                          ----- Original Message ----
                          From: Andrew Fincke <finckean@...>
                          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 7:48:13 AM
                          Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers


                          Good point, George. Horner already saw this in David Loved Jonathan, 1977, though I don't have the specific page reference on hand. The curse on Joab's house is misplaced - the target is rather Saul, who fell by the sword, that is his own. The holder of the spindle is Jonathan - he "held" the spindle, David's, in their erotic act. Tod Linafelt gave a nice paper at SBL showing how the whole lament in 2 Sameul 1 is meant sarcastically - specifically verse 22 praising Saul's sword and Jonathan's bow as signs of their "heroism". Maybe somebody can help me with the part about the leprosy at 3:29, The "lacking bread" has a parallel in the curse at 1 Samuel 1:36.
                          Andrew Fincke

                          George F Somsel <gfsomsel@yahoo. com> wrote:
                          Thanks for that. I don't know how I missed it when I looked it up. It seems there are only two instances of this word. Other apparent instances are actually of a homonym deriving from a different source. It would seem that your judgment that handling a spindle was considered a curse for a man is based on 2 Sam 3.29

                          29May [the guilt] fall upon the head of Joab and all his father���s house. May the house of Joab never be without someone suffering from a discharge or an eruption, or a male who handles the spindle, or one slain by the sword, or one lacking bread.�� ���

                          Jewish Publication Society. (1997, c1985). Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures : A new translation of the Holy Scriptures according to the traditional Hebrew text. Title facing t.p.: Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim = Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim. (2 Sa 3:29). Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society.

                          That is a passage I had nearly forgotten. It probably does have that implication.

                          george
                          gfsomsel
                          _________






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                        • Jim West
                          ... Not only does it not necessarily connote such a relationship- but only someone looking for evidence of such a relationship could find it there. Best Jim
                          Message 12 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                            George F Somsel wrote:
                            > The statement that David loved Jonathan does NOT necessarily imply a homosexual relationship as you have implied on numerous occasions.
                            >
                            > george
                            > gfsomsel
                            > _________

                            Not only does it not "necessarily" connote such a relationship- but only
                            someone looking for evidence of such a relationship could find it there.

                            Best

                            Jim



                            --
                            Jim West, ThD

                            http://web.infoave.net/~jwest -- Biblical Studies Resources
                            http://drjimwest.wordpress.com -- Weblog
                          • Andrew Fincke
                            But that is the point of Horner s book. The exact reference is Tom Horner, Jonathan Loved David, Philadelphia (Westminster), 1978, p. 38. Linafelt s point at
                            Message 13 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                              But that is the point of Horner's book. The exact reference is Tom Horner, Jonathan Loved David, Philadelphia (Westminster), 1978, p. 38. Linafelt's point at SBL was that Saul's sword in the lament (2 Samuel 1:22), far from being the implement of a hero, was the tool in his suicide, and that Jonathan's bow was key to his renouncing his claim to the throne. With it he shot the arrows that warned David to flee execution - 1 Samuel 20:35ff. See Ackerman's, When Heroes Love and especially Nardelli's new book when it comes out.
                              Andrew Fincke

                              George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
                              The statement that David loved Jonathan does NOT necessarily imply a homosexual relationship as you have implied on numerous occasions.

                              george
                              gfsomsel
                              _________



                              ----- Original Message ----
                              From: Andrew Fincke
                              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 7:48:13 AM
                              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers


                              Good point, George. Horner already saw this in David Loved Jonathan, 1977, though I don't have the specific page reference on hand. The curse on Joab's house is misplaced - the target is rather Saul, who fell by the sword, that is his own. The holder of the spindle is Jonathan - he "held" the spindle, David's, in their erotic act. Tod Linafelt gave a nice paper at SBL showing how the whole lament in 2 Sameul 1 is meant sarcastically - specifically verse 22 praising Saul's sword and Jonathan's bow as signs of their "heroism". Maybe somebody can help me with the part about the leprosy at 3:29, The "lacking bread" has a parallel in the curse at 1 Samuel 1:36.
                              Andrew Fincke

                              George F Somsel wrote:
                              Thanks for that. I don't know how I missed it when I looked it up. It seems there are only two instances of this word. Other apparent instances are actually of a homonym deriving from a different source. It would seem that your judgment that handling a spindle was considered a curse for a man is based on 2 Sam 3.29

                              29May [the guilt] fall upon the head of Joab and all his father’s house. May the house of Joab never be without someone suffering from a discharge or an eruption, or a male who handles the spindle, or one slain by the sword, or one lacking bread.†—

                              Jewish Publication Society. (1997, c1985). Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures : A new translation of the Holy Scriptures according to the traditional Hebrew text. Title facing t.p.: Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim = Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim. (2 Sa 3:29). Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society.

                              That is a passage I had nearly forgotten. It probably does have that implication.

                              george
                              gfsomsel
                              _________






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                              Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
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                            • Niels Peter Lemche
                              ... to ... execution - 1 Samuel 20:35ff. See Ackerman s, When Heroes Love and especially ... Maybe somebody here read too much Homer, and too little ANE
                              Message 14 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                                > But that is the point of Horner's book. The exact reference is Tom
                                > Horner, Jonathan Loved David, Philadelphia (Westminster), 1978, p. 38.

                                > Linafelt's point at SBL was that Saul's sword in the lament (2 Samuel
                                > 1:22), far from being the implement of a hero, was the tool in his
                                > suicide, and that Jonathan's bow was key to his renouncing his claim
                                to
                                > the throne. With it he shot the arrows that warned David to flee
                                execution > - 1 Samuel >20:35ff. See Ackerman's, When Heroes Love and
                                especially
                                > Nardelli's new >book when it comes out.
                                > Andrew Fincke



                                Maybe somebody here read too much Homer, and too little ANE stuff. I
                                guess that some here will think of similar homosexual motives in
                                Gilgamesh. Homosexuality is mentioned here and there in the OT but they
                                simply don't like it. So what do we have: anything except a modern and
                                very colored reading of biblical texts? I guess that the same attitude
                                will turn most military history into a history of homosexuality, and we
                                are in no need of another Keagan to tell us that history.

                                Finally, and here we are again again again: on what background are we
                                discussing: a narrative and a dubious interpretation of the narrative,
                                or historical persons. Since we should only discuss the first thing
                                here, it must be narrative. We cannot use this text to say that David
                                was gay. WSE can discuss whether or not a novelist made him that. I
                                think that this novelist mostly show him as a friend of nice girls (or
                                rather women, as the narrative have him suing mostly married
                                women--Abigail, Batsheba, and perhaps even Micha).

                                Niels Peter Lemche

                                PS: a piece Paper never objects to what is written on it.
                              • Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
                                Those unconvinced by the erotic dimension of David s and Jonathan s aheb in 1 Sam 18 ff. have to explain us how it is possible for a simple bind of friendship
                                Message 15 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                                  Those unconvinced by the erotic dimension of David's and Jonathan's 'aheb in 1 Sam 18 ff. have to explain us how it is possible for a simple bind of friendship or homosociality to contain so many discrepancies with the Biblical norms and to verge so often on the erotic without incurring any blame and being praised as a wonder and a model by the subsequent tradition (the Liber Antiquitatum Biblicarum, which devotes its chap. 62 to the dealings of the two men, and the Targum of Jonathan). For example, how is it possible that their three successive berîts entail both unique or extraordinary phraseology (e.g. in 1 Sam 20:3, David makes an oath by the life of Yahweh and the life of the soul of Jonathan ; in 1 Sam 20:8, their bind is a yhwh berît) and a shifting in their status qua covenant partners, with this consequence that it is hardly feasible to tell who is the superior and who the vassal ? Better a difficult conclusion which tries to explain the facts than a conventional one which ignores everything which is unclear.

                                  J.-F. Nardelli.

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Jim West
                                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 3:32 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers



                                  Not only does it not "necessarily" connote such a relationship- but only
                                  someone looking for evidence of such a relationship could find it there.

                                  Best

                                  Jim

                                  --
                                  Jim West, ThD
                                • Peter T. Daniels
                                  Nor, of course, is that interpretation excluded. -- Peter T. Daniels grammatim@verizon.net ... From: George F Somsel To:
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                                    Nor, of course, is that interpretation excluded.

                                    --
                                    Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...



                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                    From: George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...>
                                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 8:44:28 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers


                                    The statement that David loved Jonathan does NOT necessarily imply a homosexual relationship as you have implied on numerous occasions.

                                    george
                                    gfsomsel
                                    _________

                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                    From: Andrew Fincke <finckean@...>
                                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 7:48:13 AM
                                    Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers

                                    Good point, George. Horner already saw this in David Loved Jonathan, 1977, though I don't have the specific page reference on hand. The curse on Joab's house is misplaced - the target is rather Saul, who fell by the sword, that is his own. The holder of the spindle is Jonathan - he "held" the spindle, David's, in their erotic act. Tod Linafelt gave a nice paper at SBL showing how the whole lament in 2 Sameul 1 is meant sarcastically - specifically verse 22 praising Saul's sword and Jonathan's bow as signs of their "heroism". Maybe somebody can help me with the part about the leprosy at 3:29, The "lacking bread" has a parallel in the curse at 1 Samuel 1:36.
                                    Andrew Fincke

                                    George F Somsel <gfsomsel@yahoo. com> wrote:
                                    Thanks for that. I don't know how I missed it when I looked it up. It seems there are only two instances of this word. Other apparent instances are actually of a homonym deriving from a different source. It would seem that your judgment that handling a spindle was considered a curse for a man is based on 2 Sam 3.29

                                    29May [the guilt] fall upon the head of Joab and all his father���s house. May the house of Joab never be without someone suffering from a discharge or an eruption, or a male who handles the spindle, or one slain by the sword, or one lacking bread.�� ���

                                    Jewish Publication Society. (1997, c1985). Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures : A new translation of the Holy Scriptures according to the traditional Hebrew text. Title facing t.p.: Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim = Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim. (2 Sa 3:29). Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society.

                                    That is a passage I had nearly forgotten. It probably does have that implication.

                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Kevin P. Edgecomb
                                    ... KP Edgecomb writes: But this is depicted not as just a homosocial or homosexual relationship between two private citizens, but between the heir assumptive
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                                      Jean-Fabrice Nardelli wrote:
                                      > Those unconvinced by the erotic dimension of David's and Jonathan's 'aheb in 1 Sam 18 ff. have to explain us how it is possible for a simple bind of friendship or homosociality to contain so many discrepancies with the Biblical norms [snip]

                                      KP Edgecomb writes:
                                      But this is depicted not as just a homosocial or homosexual relationship between two private citizens, but between the heir assumptive and a later usurper, in a wider narrative context in which David's usurpation of the monarchy, taking it from the line of Saul via Jonathan and sons, is being justified. The rational gymnastics of such ex post facto justifications and their relationship to the events distorted by such justifications often simply don't correlate easily, particularly when it is the usurpers produce the narrative evidence. Witness Darius the Great's Behistun inscriptions: something unusual went on, but the precise details of his coup and usurpation are overlaid with a patriotic and religious sheen.

                                      Regardless, no sexual acts are described between the two, despite the eisegesis. The gay nineties are over. We can move on.

                                      Regards,
                                      Kevin P. Edgecomb
                                      Berkeley, California
                                    • Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
                                      Precisely : Ackerman went at great lengths to demonstrate that there is an erotic apologetic in the latter part of Sam : no man sexually submissive to
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                                        Precisely : Ackerman went at great lengths to demonstrate that there is an "erotic apologetic" in the latter part of Sam : no man sexually submissive to another was qualified to be king, and so David was legitimate enough to succeed to Saul. Thus, by "loving" David, Jonathan may well have been pictured by the narrator (echoeing no doubt some Davidic propaganda) as having renounced his masculinity and every right he possessed to inherit the throne of his father. I am not convinced that this is the right explanation, but it throws much light on a narrative which is crabbed, elliptic and obscure, and as such no one can afford to ignore it as if it were mere hariolations.

                                        If 1 Sam 18 ff. were as crystal-clear and straigthforward as some want to have it, why on earth burden its account of David's rise to the power with a covenant with Jonathan whose terms are exceedingly difficult to understand and a whole complex of affective notations between the heir and its putative rival, notations wich are so far from being devoid of sensuous overtones that they disrupt the well-established societal order of ancient Israel ? These pointers make a male, Jonathan, seem more important to David than his own wife and the one woman in the whole of the Bible who is described as having desired her husband, Michol : cui bono ?

                                        It is not by shutting one's eyes to interpretative difficulties that they are likely to disappear. To charge with dragging-in homosexuality and reading ancient texts through modern lens and prejudices interpreters who tentatively introduce a controlled amount of male-male affect in the affair of David with Jonathan because they consider that this hypothesis and only it resolves otherwise aporetic questions, is sheer nonsense. Homosexuality in the Old Testament remains as problematic as ever ; like it is the case for Homer (experto credite), it requires observation, more observation and yet more observation, certainly not apodictic proclamations pro or cons.

                                        J.-F. Nardelli.

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: Kevin P. Edgecomb
                                        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                        Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 9:09 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers



                                        The rational gymnastics of such ex post facto justifications and their relationship to the events distorted by such justifications often simply don't correlate easily, particularly when it is the usurpers produce the narrative evidence.
                                      • Peter T. Daniels
                                        NPL -- note that they re talking about H o r n e r (a modern American) and not H o m e r. Screen fonts are sometimes not all they need to be. -- Peter T.
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                                          NPL -- note that they're talking about H o r n e r (a modern American) and not H o m e r.

                                          Screen fonts are sometimes not all they need to be.
                                          --
                                          Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...

                                          ----- Original Message ----
                                          From: Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...>
                                          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                          Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 11:17:11 AM
                                          Subject: SV: [ANE-2] weavers

                                          > But that is the point of Horner's book. The exact reference is Tom
                                          > Horner, Jonathan Loved David, Philadelphia (Westminster) , 1978, p. 38.

                                          > Linafelt's point at SBL was that Saul's sword in the lament (2 Samuel
                                          > 1:22), far from being the implement of a hero, was the tool in his
                                          > suicide, and that Jonathan's bow was key to his renouncing his claim
                                          to
                                          > the throne. With it he shot the arrows that warned David to flee
                                          execution > - 1 Samuel >20:35ff. See Ackerman's, When Heroes Love and
                                          especially
                                          > Nardelli's new >book when it comes out.
                                          > Andrew Fincke

                                          Maybe somebody here read too much Homer, and too little ANE stuff. I
                                          guess that some here will think of similar homosexual motives in
                                          Gilgamesh. Homosexuality is mentioned here and there in the OT but they
                                          simply don't like it. So what do we have: anything except a modern and
                                          very colored reading of biblical texts? I guess that the same attitude
                                          will turn most military history into a history of homosexuality, and we
                                          are in no need of another Keagan to tell us that history.

                                          Finally, and here we are again again again: on what background are we
                                          discussing: a narrative and a dubious interpretation of the narrative,
                                          or historical persons. Since we should only discuss the first thing
                                          here, it must be narrative. We cannot use this text to say that David
                                          was gay. WSE can discuss whether or not a novelist made him that. I
                                          think that this novelist mostly show him as a friend of nice girls (or
                                          rather women, as the narrative have him suing mostly married
                                          women--Abigail, Batsheba, and perhaps even Micha).

                                          Niels Peter Lemche

                                          PS: a piece Paper never objects to what is written on it.
                                        • Niels Peter Lemche
                                          Well, if you want it so, no problem, and you might even be cited in support of the idea nourished by the late Frederick Cryer of comparing the story of David
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                                            Well, if you want it so, no problem, and you might even be cited in
                                            support of the idea nourished by the late Frederick Cryer of comparing
                                            the story of David with the Alexander-novel. This could easily have been
                                            a problem, if the author wrote his David-novel in the Hellenistic
                                            Period. However, if you move into the field of historicity, I have
                                            nothing more to say.

                                            So let's stay with the novel, the only thing we have for sure. David has
                                            been accused for many "crimes", the murder of Abner, Ishbaal, not really
                                            Saul, and of stealing other men's wives. So why not of homosexuality
                                            otherwise forbidden in the HB.

                                            The verb "to love", 'ahab, may have this connotation. However, it is
                                            also covenant language or patronage language as shown many years ago by
                                            Herbert Huffmon. So the sequence may only indicate that in their
                                            covenantal relationship, David and Jonathan were bound by the "love"
                                            demanded by the characters entering the covenant. The client is demanded
                                            to "love" his patron. Well, I suppose that religion demands the believer
                                            to "love" his divine lord as well.

                                            There are others explanations for the plot making Michal loving David,
                                            among them the eventuality that their relationship was rather "tricky",
                                            when David demanded her to divorce her husband, and later let her
                                            barren. It might be difficult to see traces of apologies for
                                            homosexuality here. It seems that the crime is of a different character.

                                            I hope that this will be deemed biased, because then, some people may
                                            have a problem demanding the text to say exactly what they wish it to
                                            say.


                                            Niels Peter Lemche
                                          • Niels Peter Lemche
                                            Great! It is getting late over here, so I bid you good night. However, the relationship between Achilleus and Patroklos (or is it Patrokles--it is too late to
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                                              Great! It is getting late over here, so I bid you good night.

                                              However, the relationship between Achilleus and Patroklos (or is it Patrokles--it is too late to get to my Iliad) may be a good comparison, and it is probably time for our Mesopotamian friends to make their comment on the relationship between Gilgamesh and Enkidu.

                                              Niels Peter Lemche


                                              -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                                              Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Peter T. Daniels
                                              Sendt: 6. december 2006 00:06
                                              Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                              Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] weavers

                                              NPL -- note that they're talking about H o r n e r (a modern American) and not H o m e r.

                                              Screen fonts are sometimes not all they need to be.
                                              --
                                              Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
                                            • Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
                                              Niels, you can t stick to the notion that the client is demanded to love his patron , because this would be neither a hesed nor a berît, but a loyalty
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                                                Niels, you can't stick to the notion that "the client is demanded to 'love' his patron", because this would be neither a hesed nor a berît, but a loyalty treaty, which is quite another thing (an adjuration). In the loyalty treaty, the weaker part binds himself willingly to the stronger one by making an oath of loyalty, that is, unconditional obedience ; then he will "love" his patron or suzerain more than his own life and family. If you're right, then the Samuel narrator went badly astray in calling berît such a proclamation of Jonathan vis-à-vis David ; this seems impossible to me. Furthermore, despite his victory over Goliath, David is still far outranked by Jonathan at the precise moment when, in 1 Sam 18:3, Saul's son, being the crown prince (to put the matter anachronically), decides to lower himself down and bind himself to the son of Jesse "because he loved him like his own soul". Berîts seldom wrap themselves up in such a sentimental language.

                                                Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
                                              • Lampros F. Kallenos
                                                ... The way to handle a spear is different from the way to handle a weaver s beam. You handle a spear by putting your fingers around it, and then you also have
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                                                  > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver’s beam
                                                  > ... ...
                                                  > The implication of this is that a weaver's beam was
                                                  > significantly larger and heavier than the normal spear shaft.
                                                  > Such a "weaver's beam" would be a significant implement for
                                                  > any average woman to handle.
                                                  >
                                                  > gfsomsel


                                                  The way to handle a spear is different from the way to handle a
                                                  weaver's beam.

                                                  You handle a spear by putting your fingers around it, and then
                                                  you also have to lift and throw it. But a weaver's beam is about
                                                  15-20 centimeters (six inches) long, and only has to be thrown or
                                                  pushed among the threads to the other side of the weaving
                                                  installation.

                                                  So, I think what this phrase

                                                  > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver’s beam

                                                  intends to is only a reference to the diameter of the shaft, not
                                                  to its weight. The weight is commented in the next phrase

                                                  > his spear’s head weighed six hundred shekels of iron

                                                  And so, a woman could be a weaver.


                                                  .
                                                  _______________________
                                                  Lampros F. Kallenos "...EKANAN OISTRO THS ZWHS
                                                  Idalion, Lefkosia TO FOBO TOU QANATOU"
                                                  Kypros
                                                  --
                                                • David Lorton
                                                  ... And how often have we seen wording along the lines of click on this link for more information . . . in sans serif type . . . with very tight letter
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                                                    Peter T. Daniels wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > NPL -- note that they're talking about H o r n e r (a modern American) and not H o m e r.
                                                    >
                                                    > Screen fonts are sometimes not all they need to be.
                                                    > --
                                                    > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...

                                                    And how often have we seen wording along the lines of "click on this
                                                    link for more information" . . . in sans serif type . . . with very
                                                    tight letter spacing.

                                                    A propos of this topic of homosexual weavers (or kings, or whoever) . .
                                                    . is it really appropriate, on this scholarly list, for people to be
                                                    interpreting biblical texts solely on the basis of English-language
                                                    translations? And with no citations of relevant literature in any of
                                                    the major languages of scholarship in our fields?

                                                    David Lorton
                                                    Baltimore, MD
                                                  • George F Somsel
                                                    That would seem to solve a difficulty in reconciling the ABD article stating that women did the weaving with the physical realities that they would not be able
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Dec 5, 2006
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                                                      That would seem to solve a difficulty in reconciling the ABD article stating that women did the weaving with the physical realities that they would not be able to handle something so heavy as what Goliath's spear was represented as being.

                                                      george
                                                      gfsomsel
                                                      _________



                                                      ----- Original Message ----
                                                      From: Lampros F. Kallenos <xalkinos@...>
                                                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 8:04:28 PM
                                                      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers


                                                      > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver�s beam
                                                      > ... ...
                                                      > The implication of this is that a weaver's beam was
                                                      > significantly larger and heavier than the normal spear shaft.
                                                      > Such a "weaver's beam" would be a significant implement for
                                                      > any average woman to handle.
                                                      >
                                                      > gfsomsel


                                                      The way to handle a spear is different from the way to handle a
                                                      weaver's beam.

                                                      You handle a spear by putting your fingers around it, and then
                                                      you also have to lift and throw it. But a weaver's beam is about
                                                      15-20 centimeters (six inches) long, and only has to be thrown or
                                                      pushed among the threads to the other side of the weaving
                                                      installation.

                                                      So, I think what this phrase

                                                      > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver�s beam

                                                      intends to is only a reference to the diameter of the shaft, not
                                                      to its weight. The weight is commented in the next phrase

                                                      > his spear�s head weighed six hundred shekels of iron

                                                      And so, a woman could be a weaver.


                                                      .
                                                      _______________________
                                                      Lampros F. Kallenos "...EKANAN OISTRO THS ZWHS
                                                      Idalion, Lefkosia TO FOBO TOU QANATOU"
                                                      Kypros
                                                      --



                                                      Yahoo! Groups Links





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                                                    • goranson@duke.edu
                                                      Two perhaps relevant books: Though this deals mainly with later times, it probably includes some earlier bibliography (and cf. some of her articles and reviews
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Dec 6, 2006
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                                                        Two perhaps relevant books:

                                                        Though this deals mainly with later times, it probably includes some earlier
                                                        bibliography (and cf. some of her articles and reviews for debate on weaving
                                                        gender issues):
                                                        Spinning fantasies : rabbis, gender, and history /
                                                        Miriam Peskowitz 1997
                                                        English Book xiv, 249 p. ; 24 cm.
                                                        Berkeley : University of California Press, ; ISBN: 0520208315
                                                        0520209672 (pbk.)

                                                        This one includes some more ancient material (in both senses) as well as at
                                                        least some discussion of women weavers:
                                                        Archéologie des textiles des origines au Ve siècle :
                                                        actes du colloque de Lattes, octobre 1999 /
                                                        Dominique Cardon; Michel Feugère 2000
                                                        French Book 290 p., 4 p. of plates : ill. (some col.), maps ; 30 cm.
                                                        Montagnac : M. Mergoil,

                                                        though I returned it to interlibrary loan just days ago, and didn't
                                                        read it all.
                                                        By the way, I got it to copy "The textiles from Khirbet Qazone (Jordan)" by H.
                                                        Granger-Taylor" p. 149-62 and 1 colour plate. Based of the dating of these
                                                        Lisan cemetery textiles, it appears that this cemetery is (at least in this
                                                        sample) later than the second temple Qumran burials. Though the two share some
                                                        similarities, the two cemeteries differ in some other significant respects
                                                        (e.g., besides dating, grave goods, and proportions of men, women, and
                                                        children).

                                                        best
                                                        Stephen Goranson
                                                        http://www.duke.edu/~goranson
                                                      • Kevin P. Edgecomb
                                                        Yigael Yadin in his Art of Warfare in Biblical Lands, 2:354-355, suggests the shaft of his spear like a weaver s beam in 1 Samuel 17.7 was rather to indicate
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Dec 6, 2006
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                                                          Yigael Yadin in his Art of Warfare in Biblical Lands, 2:354-355, suggests
                                                          the "shaft of his spear like a weaver's beam" in 1 Samuel 17.7 was rather to
                                                          indicate that, like the "leash rod" of a loom, it possessed a cord wrapped
                                                          around the shaft which created a short loop. The illustrations given are for
                                                          a model of a primitve Greek loom, a drawing of a modern leash rod's loops,
                                                          and a black figure kylix of a hoplite with precisely such a spear and his
                                                          finger through the loop. The caption reads: "A typical Aegean javelin has a
                                                          loop and cord wound round the shaft so that the weapon could be hurled a
                                                          greater distance with greater stability by virtue of the resultant spin. The
                                                          Greeks and Romans called such a javelin 'the loop.'"

                                                          It's such a fine solution to the problem, that probably means it's wrong.

                                                          Regards,
                                                          Kevin P. Edgecomb
                                                          Berkeley, California

                                                          > -----Original Message-----
                                                          > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On
                                                          > Behalf Of George F Somsel
                                                          > Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2006 8:40 PM
                                                          > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                          > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers
                                                          >
                                                          > That would seem to solve a difficulty in reconciling the ABD
                                                          > article stating that women did the weaving with the physical
                                                          > realities that they would not be able to handle something so
                                                          > heavy as what Goliath's spear was represented as being.
                                                          >
                                                          > george
                                                          > gfsomsel
                                                          > _________
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > ----- Original Message ----
                                                          > From: Lampros F. Kallenos <xalkinos@...>
                                                          > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                                          > Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 8:04:28 PM
                                                          > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] weavers
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver¢s beam ... ...
                                                          > > The implication of this is that a weaver's beam was significantly
                                                          > > larger and heavier than the normal spear shaft.
                                                          > > Such a "weaver's beam" would be a significant implement for any
                                                          > > average woman to handle.
                                                          > >
                                                          > > gfsomsel
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > The way to handle a spear is different from the way to handle
                                                          > a weaver's beam.
                                                          >
                                                          > You handle a spear by putting your fingers around it, and
                                                          > then you also have to lift and throw it. But a weaver's beam
                                                          > is about 15-20 centimeters (six inches) long, and only has to
                                                          > be thrown or pushed among the threads to the other side of
                                                          > the weaving installation.
                                                          >
                                                          > So, I think what this phrase
                                                          >
                                                          > > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver¢s beam
                                                          >
                                                          > intends to is only a reference to the diameter of the shaft,
                                                          > not to its weight. The weight is commented in the next phrase
                                                          >
                                                          > > his spear¢s head weighed six hundred shekels of iron
                                                          >
                                                          > And so, a woman could be a weaver.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > .
                                                          > _______________________
                                                          > Lampros F. Kallenos "...EKANAN OISTRO THS ZWHS
                                                          > Idalion, Lefkosia TO FOBO TOU QANATOU"
                                                          > Kypros
                                                          > --
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > ______________________________________________________________
                                                          > ______________________
                                                          > Cheap talk?
                                                          > Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call rates.
                                                          > http://voice.yahoo.com
                                                          >
                                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                        • Richard S. Ellis
                                                          ... What you are thinking about is a shuttle, which I don t think anyone (in English) would refer to as a beam. If beam is a good translation, it is more
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Dec 6, 2006
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                                                            Lampros F. Kallenos wrote:
                                                            > > The shaft of his spear was like a weaver’s beam
                                                            > > ... ...
                                                            > > The implication of this is that a weaver's beam was
                                                            > > significantly larger and heavier than the normal spear shaft.
                                                            > > Such a "weaver's beam" would be a significant implement for
                                                            > > any average woman to handle.
                                                            > >
                                                            > > gfsomsel
                                                            >
                                                            >
                                                            > The way to handle a spear is different from the way to handle a
                                                            > weaver's beam.
                                                            >
                                                            > You handle a spear by putting your fingers around it, and then
                                                            > you also have to lift and throw it. But a weaver's beam is about
                                                            > 15-20 centimeters (six inches) long, and only has to be thrown or
                                                            > pushed among the threads to the other side of the weaving
                                                            > installation.

                                                            What you are thinking about is a shuttle, which I don't think anyone (in
                                                            English) would refer to as a beam. If "beam" is a good translation, it
                                                            is more likely to refer either to one of the two beams of a ground loom
                                                            or of an upright loom, or to the warp beam of a warp-weighted loom. In
                                                            any case the beam would not be moved while the loom was in use. For all
                                                            this stuff you might refer to:

                                                            Barber, Elizabeth J. W. 1990. Prehistoric Textiles: The Development of
                                                            Cloth in the Neolithic and Bronze Ages with Special Reference to the
                                                            Aegean. Princeton: Princeton University Press.

                                                            Dick Ellis
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