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RES: [ANE-2] Egyptian temple econoomy

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  • Osvaldo
    Lisbeth S. Fried You argue the relations politics of the Temple of Jerusalem, in the Persian period (centuries VI and V), in this book? Very I am interested in
    Message 1 of 13 , Nov 27, 2006
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      Lisbeth S. Fried

      You argue the relations politics of the Temple of Jerusalem, in the Persian period (centuries VI and V), in this book? Very I am interested in this question. Thanks,

      Osvaldo Luiz Ribeiro





      _____

      De: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] Em nome de Lisbeth
      S. Fried
      Enviada em: segunda-feira, 27 de novembro de 2006 21:29
      Para: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Assunto: RE: [ANE-2] Egyptian temple econoomy



      Dear Walter,

      A lot of work has been done on this.

      I have a chapter in my book that discusses this issue and has references.

      The Priest and the Great King: Temple-Palace Relations in the Persian
      Empire. Eisenbrauns, 2004.

      Although the book title indicates the Persian period, in order to present
      the changes that Persia wrought,

      I discuss temple economies in the OK, MK, NK, and the Late Period.
      References pertain to all the periods.

      It's a very interesting subject.

      Liz Fried

      Ann Arbor

      _____

      From: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
      [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com] On Behalf
      Of
      wlgjdewinter
      Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 4:14 AM
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
      Subject: [ANE-2] Egyptian temple econoomy

      Dear members,

      I am currently working on a proposal on Egyptian temple economy in the
      OK, MK and NK, and a subtopic on Egyptian temple economy in conquered
      lands as Levant and Nubia, Mesopotamia.
      Many research has been done on the subject focused on Egyptian papyri-
      texts, but I am trying to evaluate the archaeological evidence that
      supports this. Does anyone knows some articles that are written on this
      or is this still a topic to be investigated?

      Walter de Winter, MA Archaeology of Levant
      Leiden University, The Netherlands
    • Lisbeth S. Fried
      Dear Walter, A lot of work has been done on this. I have a chapter in my book that discusses this issue and has references. The Priest and the Great King:
      Message 2 of 13 , Nov 27, 2006
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        Dear Walter,

        A lot of work has been done on this.

        I have a chapter in my book that discusses this issue and has references.

        The Priest and the Great King: Temple-Palace Relations in the Persian
        Empire. Eisenbrauns, 2004.

        Although the book title indicates the Persian period, in order to present
        the changes that Persia wrought,

        I discuss temple economies in the OK, MK, NK, and the Late Period.
        References pertain to all the periods.

        It’s a very interesting subject.



        Liz Fried

        Ann Arbor



        _____

        From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        wlgjdewinter
        Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 4:14 AM
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [ANE-2] Egyptian temple econoomy



        Dear members,

        I am currently working on a proposal on Egyptian temple economy in the
        OK, MK and NK, and a subtopic on Egyptian temple economy in conquered
        lands as Levant and Nubia, Mesopotamia.
        Many research has been done on the subject focused on Egyptian papyri-
        texts, but I am trying to evaluate the archaeological evidence that
        supports this. Does anyone knows some articles that are written on this
        or is this still a topic to be investigated?

        Walter de Winter, MA Archaeology of Levant
        Leiden University, The Netherlands





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Lisbeth S. Fried
        Yes, absolutely. I look at temple - palace relations (that is, the political and economic relations) in Babylon and Egypt primarily, but also a bit in the
        Message 3 of 13 , Nov 28, 2006
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          Yes, absolutely. I look at temple - palace relations (that is, the political
          and economic relations) in Babylon and Egypt primarily, but also a bit in
          the various satrapies of Asia Minor. Then I try to see if the findings apply
          to the temple in Jerusalem. The temple refers to the local temples, by
          "palace" I mean the Persian emperor.

          Liz Fried

          Ann Arbor



          _____

          From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          Osvaldo
          Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 8:31 AM
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RES: [ANE-2] Egyptian temple econoomy



          Lisbeth S. Fried

          You argue the relations politics of the Temple of Jerusalem, in the Persian
          period (centuries VI and V), in this book? Very I am interested in this
          question. Thanks,

          Osvaldo Luiz Ribeiro

          _____

          De: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
          [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com] Em nome de
          Lisbeth
          S. Fried
          Enviada em: segunda-feira, 27 de novembro de 2006 21:29
          Para: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
          Assunto: RE: [ANE-2] Egyptian temple econoomy

          Dear Walter,

          A lot of work has been done on this.

          I have a chapter in my book that discusses this issue and has references.

          The Priest and the Great King: Temple-Palace Relations in the Persian
          Empire. Eisenbrauns, 2004.

          Although the book title indicates the Persian period, in order to present
          the changes that Persia wrought,

          I discuss temple economies in the OK, MK, NK, and the Late Period.
          References pertain to all the periods.

          It's a very interesting subject.

          Liz Fried

          Ann Arbor

          _____

          From: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
          [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com] On Behalf
          Of
          wlgjdewinter
          Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 4:14 AM
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
          Subject: [ANE-2] Egyptian temple econoomy

          Dear members,

          I am currently working on a proposal on Egyptian temple economy in the
          OK, MK and NK, and a subtopic on Egyptian temple economy in conquered
          lands as Levant and Nubia, Mesopotamia.
          Many research has been done on the subject focused on Egyptian papyri-
          texts, but I am trying to evaluate the archaeological evidence that
          supports this. Does anyone knows some articles that are written on this
          or is this still a topic to be investigated?

          Walter de Winter, MA Archaeology of Levant
          Leiden University, The Netherlands





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Osvaldo
          Mrs. Fried, Do you not considers that the temple of Jerusalem has been a “new” build temple in Persian period? In it would consider it that the temple of
          Message 4 of 13 , Nov 28, 2006
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            Mrs. Fried,



            Do you not considers that the temple of Jerusalem has been a “new” build
            temple in Persian period? In it would consider it that the temple of
            Jerusalem was an instrument of ideological control of the Persia? Do you see
            some “political-ideological independence” of Joshua, the highest priest,
            during its “regency”?

            Grateful,

            Osvaldo Luiz Ribeiro





            _____

            De: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] Em nome de Lisbeth
            S. Fried
            Enviada em: terça-feira, 28 de novembro de 2006 22:29
            Para: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Assunto: RE: [ANE-2] Egyptian temple econoomy



            I’m not sure what you mean. I don’t know of any temples that were newly
            constructed during Persian occupation.

            However, Darius I put his cartouche on temples that had already been built.

            I discuss this at length.

            Liz Fried
          • Clark Whelton
            Have local Persian-period temples or palaces been excavated in Babylon? Clark Whelton New York ... and economic relations) in Babylon and Egypt primarily, but
            Message 5 of 13 , Nov 28, 2006
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              Have local Persian-period temples or palaces been excavated in Babylon?


              Clark Whelton
              New York



              >>>>>Yes, absolutely. I look at temple - palace relations (that is, the
              >>>>>political
              and economic relations) in Babylon and Egypt primarily, but also a bit in
              the various satrapies of Asia Minor. Then I try to see if the findings apply
              to the temple in Jerusalem. The temple refers to the local temples, by
              "palace" I mean the Persian emperor.

              Liz Fried
              Ann Arbor

              _____



              >>>>>You argue the relations politics of the Temple of Jerusalem, in the
              >>>>>Persian
              period (centuries VI and V), in this book? Very I am interested in this
              question. Thanks,

              Osvaldo Luiz Ribeiro

              _____

              >>>>>Dear Walter,

              A lot of work has been done on this.

              I have a chapter in my book that discusses this issue and has references.

              The Priest and the Great King: Temple-Palace Relations in the Persian
              Empire. Eisenbrauns, 2004.

              Although the book title indicates the Persian period, in order to present
              the changes that Persia wrought,

              I discuss temple economies in the OK, MK, NK, and the Late Period.
              References pertain to all the periods.

              It's a very interesting subject.

              Liz Fried
              Ann Arbor

              _____

              Dear members,

              I am currently working on a proposal on Egyptian temple economy in the
              OK, MK and NK, and a subtopic on Egyptian temple economy in conquered
              lands as Levant and Nubia, Mesopotamia.
              Many research has been done on the subject focused on Egyptian papyri-
              texts, but I am trying to evaluate the archaeological evidence that
              supports this. Does anyone knows some articles that are written on this
              or is this still a topic to be investigated?

              Walter de Winter, MA Archaeology of Levant
              Leiden University, The Netherlands
            • Lisbeth S. Fried
              I’m not sure what you mean. I don’t know of any temples that were newly constructed during Persian occupation. However, Darius I put his cartouche on
              Message 6 of 13 , Nov 28, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                I’m not sure what you mean. I don’t know of any temples that were newly
                constructed during Persian occupation.

                However, Darius I put his cartouche on temples that had already been built.

                I discuss this at length.

                Liz Fried



                _____

                From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                Clark Whelton
                Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2006 2:13 PM
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Egyptian temple econoomy



                Have local Persian-period temples or palaces been excavated in Babylon?

                Clark Whelton
                New York

                >>>>>Yes, absolutely. I look at temple - palace relations (that is, the
                >>>>>political
                and economic relations) in Babylon and Egypt primarily, but also a bit in
                the various satrapies of Asia Minor. Then I try to see if the findings apply
                to the temple in Jerusalem. The temple refers to the local temples, by
                "palace" I mean the Persian emperor.

                Liz Fried
                Ann Arbor

                _____

                >>>>>You argue the relations politics of the Temple of Jerusalem, in the
                >>>>>Persian
                period (centuries VI and V), in this book? Very I am interested in this
                question. Thanks,

                Osvaldo Luiz Ribeiro

                _____

                >>>>>Dear Walter,

                A lot of work has been done on this.

                I have a chapter in my book that discusses this issue and has references.

                The Priest and the Great King: Temple-Palace Relations in the Persian
                Empire. Eisenbrauns, 2004.

                Although the book title indicates the Persian period, in order to present
                the changes that Persia wrought,

                I discuss temple economies in the OK, MK, NK, and the Late Period.
                References pertain to all the periods.

                It's a very interesting subject.

                Liz Fried
                Ann Arbor

                _____

                Dear members,

                I am currently working on a proposal on Egyptian temple economy in the
                OK, MK and NK, and a subtopic on Egyptian temple economy in conquered
                lands as Levant and Nubia, Mesopotamia.
                Many research has been done on the subject focused on Egyptian papyri-
                texts, but I am trying to evaluate the archaeological evidence that
                supports this. Does anyone knows some articles that are written on this
                or is this still a topic to be investigated?

                Walter de Winter, MA Archaeology of Levant
                Leiden University, The Netherlands





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Clark Whelton
                ... From: Lisbeth S. Fried ... constructed during Persian occupation... That s what I meant. I m still trying to determine why no archaeological evidence of
                Message 7 of 13 , Nov 28, 2006
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                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Lisbeth S. Fried
                  >>>>I'm not sure what you mean. I don't know of any temples that were newly
                  constructed during Persian occupation...



                  That's what I meant. I'm still trying to determine why no archaeological
                  evidence of the Persian period has been found in Assyria or the Indus
                  valley. Both satrapies are cited by Herodotus as producers of wealth for
                  Persia, and yet the people who lived and worked there seem to have left no
                  evidence of their existence. As far as I know, Babylon follows this
                  pattern, with only a few minor finds dated to the Persian period.

                  Clark Whelton
                  New York
                • Lisbeth S. Fried
                  Dear Clark, We’ve had this discussion before. You say no record of Persian existence in Mesopotamia, yet there are several thousands of cuneiform tablets
                  Message 8 of 13 , Nov 29, 2006
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                    Dear Clark,

                    We’ve had this discussion before.

                    You say no record of Persian existence in Mesopotamia, yet there are several
                    thousands of cuneiform tablets dated to the reigns of the various Persian
                    kings. These economic tablets indicate the wealth that poured into the
                    temples and from there to the palace. These tablets certainly provide
                    personal names, family names, occupations of those who lived in Babylon
                    under the Persians. In addition there is a great deal of Egyptian papyri
                    which also are dated to the various Persian kings, and which also provide
                    names and places of people who lived in Egypt under those kings.

                    What do you make of these?

                    Liz Fried



                    _____

                    From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                    Clark Whelton
                    Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 12:04 AM
                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Egyptian temple econoomy



                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Lisbeth S. Fried
                    >>>>I'm not sure what you mean. I don't know of any temples that were newly
                    constructed during Persian occupation...

                    That's what I meant. I'm still trying to determine why no archaeological
                    evidence of the Persian period has been found in Assyria or the Indus
                    valley. Both satrapies are cited by Herodotus as producers of wealth for
                    Persia, and yet the people who lived and worked there seem to have left no
                    evidence of their existence. As far as I know, Babylon follows this
                    pattern, with only a few minor finds dated to the Persian period.

                    Clark Whelton
                    New York





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Clark Whelton
                    ... We ve had this discussion before. You say no record of Persian existence in Mesopotamia, yet there are several thousands of cuneiform tablets dated to the
                    Message 9 of 13 , Nov 29, 2006
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                      >>>>>>>From: Lisbeth S. Fried
                      >>>>>>Dear Clark,
                      We've had this discussion before.
                      You say no record of Persian existence in Mesopotamia, yet there are several
                      thousands of cuneiform tablets dated to the reigns of the various Persian
                      kings. These economic tablets indicate the wealth that poured into the
                      temples and from there to the palace. These tablets certainly provide
                      personal names, family names, occupations of those who lived in Babylon
                      under the Persians. In addition there is a great deal of Egyptian papyri
                      which also are dated to the various Persian kings, and which also provide
                      names and places of people who lived in Egypt under those kings.
                      What do you make of these?
                      Liz Fried


                      Dear Liz,

                      I said there is no archaeological evidence of the people who lived in
                      Assyria and the Indus, and very little for the people who lived in Babylon,
                      during the Persian period. By "archaeological" I meant the foundations of
                      houses, palaces, temples and warehouses that were constructed during this
                      period... along with graves, grave goods, tombs, gates, monuments, garbage
                      pits, weapons, jewelry, cultic objects, pottery, etc. The textual evidence
                      of cuneiform tablets, papyri and other writings is very important, but it
                      also raises an important question. Where did the Persian-period people who
                      created these writings live and work? Where are the scribes buried? Where
                      are the remains of their workshops and pottery? Writing is a hallmark of
                      higher civilization, and economic tablets indicate that wealth poured into
                      the temples, and from there to the palace. I do not doubt it. But why
                      haven't we been able to find evidence of the material culture of these
                      wealth producers, and wealth consumers? Why were no new temples, palaces or
                      houses built for 200 years? The production of wealth requires
                      infrastructure. So why is wealth-producing infrastructure missing from the
                      Persian period in what must have been Persia's three most valuable
                      satrapies?


                      Clark Whelton
                      New York
                    • Trudy Kawami
                      Dear Clark, The tablets didn t appear out of thin air (or just the commercial art market); many have been excavated along with other evidence of life in the
                      Message 10 of 13 , Nov 29, 2006
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                        Dear Clark,

                        The tablets didn't appear out of thin air (or just the commercial art
                        market); many have been excavated along with other
                        evidence of life in the Persian period. But since Babylon was not sacked
                        & burned there would have been no need to
                        rebuild houses, temples & palaces. Since these places were intact they
                        continued in use. The change was political, not material.
                        In Assyria the major destruction occured a century before the
                        Achaemenids. That region was not as important in terms of
                        asserting governance, so little needed to be built. In my own
                        neighborhood in NY very little has been built in the last 100 yrs or
                        more,
                        not because no one is there but because what was build was very sound &
                        continues in use.

                        You have brought up this topic before & ignored what was written in
                        response. Read detailed archaeolgical reports on these areas.
                        Trudy Kawami

                        ________________________________

                        From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                        Clark Whelton
                        Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 1:44 PM
                        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Egyptian temple econoomy





                        Dear Liz,

                        I said there is no archaeological evidence of the people who lived in
                        Assyria and the Indus, and very little for the people who lived in
                        Babylon,
                        during the Persian period. By "archaeological" I meant the foundations
                        of
                        houses, palaces, temples and warehouses that were constructed during
                        this
                        period... along with graves, grave goods, tombs, gates, monuments,
                        garbage
                        pits, weapons, jewelry, cultic objects, pottery, etc. The textual
                        evidence
                        of cuneiform tablets, papyri and other writings is very important, but
                        it
                        also raises an important question. Where did the Persian-period people
                        who
                        created these writings live and work? Where are the scribes buried?
                        Where
                        are the remains of their workshops and pottery? Writing is a hallmark of

                        higher civilization, and economic tablets indicate that wealth poured
                        into
                        the temples, and from there to the palace. I do not doubt it. But why
                        haven't we been able to find evidence of the material culture of these
                        wealth producers, and wealth consumers? Why were no new temples, palaces
                        or
                        houses built for 200 years? The production of wealth requires
                        infrastructure. So why is wealth-producing infrastructure missing from
                        the
                        Persian period in what must have been Persia's three most valuable
                        satrapies?

                        Clark Whelton
                        New York






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Clark Whelton
                        ... market); many have been excavated along with other evidence of life in the Persian period. But since Babylon was not sacked & burned there would have been
                        Message 11 of 13 , Nov 29, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          >>>>>From: Trudy Kawami
                          >>>>>The tablets didn't appear out of thin air (or just the commercial art
                          market); many have been excavated along with other evidence of life in the
                          Persian period. But since Babylon was not sacked
                          & burned there would have been no need to
                          rebuild houses, temples & palaces. Since these places were intact they
                          continued in use. The change was political, not material...


                          Upon what do you base these opinions? Do any contemporary sources tell us
                          that, for two centuries, nothing needed to be built or rebuilt in Babylon?
                          During a previous discussion we agreed that Persians were not cultural or
                          religious imperialists, and therefore we should not necessarily expect to
                          find, say, Persian buildings in Babylon.
                          But are we really to believe that the greatest empire in the ANE occupied
                          and ruled a flourishing Babylon for 200 years, and during all that time the
                          Babylonians themselves built nothing and made nothing? Didn't
                          Persian-period Babylonians require tombs and graves?


                          >>>>>Trudy Kawami:
                          In Assyria the major destruction occured a century before the Achaemenids.
                          That region was not as important in terms of asserting governance, so little
                          needed to be built.


                          Herodotus (I:192) describes Assyria as "by far the greatest" producer of
                          wealth for the Persian treasury. Where in Assyria do we find evidence of
                          the people who created this wealth? Didn't these Assyrians use pottery?


                          Trudy Kawami:
                          >>>>>>In my own neighborhood in NY very little has been built in the last
                          >>>>>>100 yrs or
                          more, not because no one is there but because what was build was very sound
                          &
                          continues in use.


                          I'm very glad that a NY neighborhood is being preserved. My own historic
                          NYC neighborhood is being slowly destroyed by a real estate monster called
                          New York University. But we're not talking about a neighborhood here, we're
                          talking about Babylon, one of the greatest cities of the ANE. Hasn't the
                          city around your neighborhood changed in the last 100 years?


                          >>>>>You have brought up this topic before & ignored what was written in
                          >>>>>response.


                          Please be specific. What did I ignore? The last exchange I have in my
                          records is your statement that Persians were not destroyers and therefore we
                          should not expect to find new construction in Persian satrapies, etc.
                          followed by my reply (April 11th) which made points similar to the ones
                          above. If you replied to that message, I did not receive it. I reopened
                          the thread because I wondered if Liz had any new information about temples
                          and palaces in Persian Babylon.

                          >>>>>Read detailed archaeolgical reports on these areas.
                          Trudy Kawami


                          I have, but will gladly read more. Which reports do you have in mind?

                          Clark Whelton
                          New York




                          From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                          Clark Whelton
                          Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 1:44 PM
                          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Egyptian temple econoomy

                          Dear Liz,

                          I said there is no archaeological evidence of the people who lived in
                          Assyria and the Indus, and very little for the people who lived in
                          Babylon,
                          during the Persian period. By "archaeological" I meant the foundations
                          of
                          houses, palaces, temples and warehouses that were constructed during
                          this
                          period... along with graves, grave goods, tombs, gates, monuments,
                          garbage
                          pits, weapons, jewelry, cultic objects, pottery, etc. The textual
                          evidence
                          of cuneiform tablets, papyri and other writings is very important, but
                          it
                          also raises an important question. Where did the Persian-period people
                          who
                          created these writings live and work? Where are the scribes buried?
                          Where
                          are the remains of their workshops and pottery? Writing is a hallmark of

                          higher civilization, and economic tablets indicate that wealth poured
                          into
                          the temples, and from there to the palace. I do not doubt it. But why
                          haven't we been able to find evidence of the material culture of these
                          wealth producers, and wealth consumers? Why were no new temples, palaces
                          or
                          houses built for 200 years? The production of wealth requires
                          infrastructure. So why is wealth-producing infrastructure missing from
                          the
                          Persian period in what must have been Persia's three most valuable
                          satrapies?

                          Clark Whelton
                          New York
                        • Lisbeth S. Fried
                          Dear Clark, We have thousands of tablets from Babylonia which describe day to day activities. Do you think they were forged? They have dates that span the
                          Message 12 of 13 , Nov 30, 2006
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                            Dear Clark,

                            We have thousands of tablets from Babylonia which describe day to day
                            activities.

                            Do you think they were forged? They have dates that span the entire Persian
                            period from Cyrus to Alexander and past Alexander. The tablets reveal that
                            products were sent from one house to another, from one temple to another,
                            from temples to palaces, from storehouses to temples, to quays, to palaces.
                            These texts are far better evidence of a functioning society than either
                            grave goods or architecture would be.

                            If you’re trying to prove that there was no Persian period, then you will
                            have some difficulty explaining away all these well-dated tablets, stele,
                            and papyri.

                            Liz Fried



                            _____

                            From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                            Clark Whelton
                            Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 7:55 PM
                            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Egyptian temple econoomy



                            >>>>>From: Trudy Kawami
                            >>>>>The tablets didn't appear out of thin air (or just the commercial art
                            market); many have been excavated along with other evidence of life in the
                            Persian period. But since Babylon was not sacked
                            & burned there would have been no need to
                            rebuild houses, temples & palaces. Since these places were intact they
                            continued in use. The change was political, not material...

                            Upon what do you base these opinions? Do any contemporary sources tell us
                            that, for two centuries, nothing needed to be built or rebuilt in Babylon?
                            During a previous discussion we agreed that Persians were not cultural or
                            religious imperialists, and therefore we should not necessarily expect to
                            find, say, Persian buildings in Babylon.
                            But are we really to believe that the greatest empire in the ANE occupied
                            and ruled a flourishing Babylon for 200 years, and during all that time the
                            Babylonians themselves built nothing and made nothing? Didn't
                            Persian-period Babylonians require tombs and graves?

                            >>>>>Trudy Kawami:
                            In Assyria the major destruction occured a century before the Achaemenids.
                            That region was not as important in terms of asserting governance, so little

                            needed to be built.

                            Herodotus (I:192) describes Assyria as "by far the greatest" producer of
                            wealth for the Persian treasury. Where in Assyria do we find evidence of
                            the people who created this wealth? Didn't these Assyrians use pottery?

                            Trudy Kawami:
                            >>>>>>In my own neighborhood in NY very little has been built in the last
                            >>>>>>100 yrs or
                            more, not because no one is there but because what was build was very sound
                            &
                            continues in use.

                            I'm very glad that a NY neighborhood is being preserved. My own historic
                            NYC neighborhood is being slowly destroyed by a real estate monster called
                            New York University. But we're not talking about a neighborhood here, we're
                            talking about Babylon, one of the greatest cities of the ANE. Hasn't the
                            city around your neighborhood changed in the last 100 years?

                            >>>>>You have brought up this topic before & ignored what was written in
                            >>>>>response.

                            Please be specific. What did I ignore? The last exchange I have in my
                            records is your statement that Persians were not destroyers and therefore we

                            should not expect to find new construction in Persian satrapies, etc.
                            followed by my reply (April 11th) which made points similar to the ones
                            above. If you replied to that message, I did not receive it. I reopened
                            the thread because I wondered if Liz had any new information about temples
                            and palaces in Persian Babylon.

                            >>>>>Read detailed archaeolgical reports on these areas.
                            Trudy Kawami

                            I have, but will gladly read more. Which reports do you have in mind?

                            Clark Whelton
                            New York

                            From: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                            [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com] On Behalf
                            Of
                            Clark Whelton
                            Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 1:44 PM
                            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
                            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Egyptian temple econoomy

                            Dear Liz,

                            I said there is no archaeological evidence of the people who lived in
                            Assyria and the Indus, and very little for the people who lived in
                            Babylon,
                            during the Persian period. By "archaeological" I meant the foundations
                            of
                            houses, palaces, temples and warehouses that were constructed during
                            this
                            period... along with graves, grave goods, tombs, gates, monuments,
                            garbage
                            pits, weapons, jewelry, cultic objects, pottery, etc. The textual
                            evidence
                            of cuneiform tablets, papyri and other writings is very important, but
                            it
                            also raises an important question. Where did the Persian-period people
                            who
                            created these writings live and work? Where are the scribes buried?
                            Where
                            are the remains of their workshops and pottery? Writing is a hallmark of

                            higher civilization, and economic tablets indicate that wealth poured
                            into
                            the temples, and from there to the palace. I do not doubt it. But why
                            haven't we been able to find evidence of the material culture of these
                            wealth producers, and wealth consumers? Why were no new temples, palaces
                            or
                            houses built for 200 years? The production of wealth requires
                            infrastructure. So why is wealth-producing infrastructure missing from
                            the
                            Persian period in what must have been Persia's three most valuable
                            satrapies?

                            Clark Whelton
                            New York





                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Trudy Kawami
                            Clark, You really have to start by reading the early German excavations in Babylon by Robert Koldewey: Excavations at Babylon, London, 1914; Die Tempel von
                            Message 13 of 13 , Nov 30, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Clark,
                              You really have to start by reading the early German excavations in
                              Babylon by Robert Koldewey: Excavations at Babylon, London, 1914; Die
                              Tempel von Babylon und Borsippa, 1911; Das wiedererstehende Babylon,
                              1925, for starters. You might also look at Joan Oates' book, Babylon,
                              for a more contemporary overview & additional bibliography.
                              The location of Babylon was never "lost", but a great part of the temple
                              quater, esp the ziggurat of Marduk, was robbed out for its baked bricks
                              in the early medieval period. It is (or was before the Iraq war)
                              literally a hole in the ground that filled with water from time to time.
                              In their zeal to find early remains, early excavators often dug right
                              through the later periods, like the Achaemenid through Parthian. Burials
                              in particular were disregarded because they were not flashy or "royal."
                              I don't understand whaat you are trying to say - that there was no
                              Achaemenid period? that Babylon was empty? Could you please explain why
                              you question the late 6th through late 4th centuries BCE in southern
                              Mesospotamia.
                              Trudy Kawami

                              ________________________________

                              From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                              Clark Whelton
                              Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 7:55 PM
                              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Egyptian temple econoomy



                              >>>>>From: Trudy Kawami
                              >>>>>The tablets didn't appear out of thin air (or just the commercial
                              art
                              market); many have been excavated along with other evidence of life in
                              the
                              Persian period. But since Babylon was not sacked
                              & burned there would have been no need to
                              rebuild houses, temples & palaces. Since these places were intact they
                              continued in use. The change was political, not material...

                              Upon what do you base these opinions? Do any contemporary sources tell
                              us
                              that, for two centuries, nothing needed to be built or rebuilt in
                              Babylon?
                              During a previous discussion we agreed that Persians were not cultural
                              or
                              religious imperialists, and therefore we should not necessarily expect
                              to
                              find, say, Persian buildings in Babylon.
                              But are we really to believe that the greatest empire in the ANE
                              occupied
                              and ruled a flourishing Babylon for 200 years, and during all that time
                              the
                              Babylonians themselves built nothing and made nothing? Didn't
                              Persian-period Babylonians require tombs and graves?

                              >>>>>Trudy Kawami:
                              In Assyria the major destruction occured a century before the
                              Achaemenids.
                              That region was not as important in terms of asserting governance, so
                              little
                              needed to be built.

                              Herodotus (I:192) describes Assyria as "by far the greatest" producer of

                              wealth for the Persian treasury. Where in Assyria do we find evidence of

                              the people who created this wealth? Didn't these Assyrians use pottery?

                              Trudy Kawami:
                              >>>>>>In my own neighborhood in NY very little has been built in the
                              last
                              >>>>>>100 yrs or
                              more, not because no one is there but because what was build was very
                              sound
                              &
                              continues in use.

                              I'm very glad that a NY neighborhood is being preserved. My own historic

                              NYC neighborhood is being slowly destroyed by a real estate monster
                              called
                              New York University. But we're not talking about a neighborhood here,
                              we're
                              talking about Babylon, one of the greatest cities of the ANE. Hasn't the

                              city around your neighborhood changed in the last 100 years?

                              >>>>>You have brought up this topic before & ignored what was written in

                              >>>>>response.

                              Please be specific. What did I ignore? The last exchange I have in my
                              records is your statement that Persians were not destroyers and
                              therefore we
                              should not expect to find new construction in Persian satrapies, etc.
                              followed by my reply (April 11th) which made points similar to the ones
                              above. If you replied to that message, I did not receive it. I reopened
                              the thread because I wondered if Liz had any new information about
                              temples
                              and palaces in Persian Babylon.

                              >>>>>Read detailed archaeolgical reports on these areas.
                              Trudy Kawami

                              I have, but will gladly read more. Which reports do you have in mind?

                              Clark Whelton
                              New York

                              From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                              [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
                              Behalf Of
                              Clark Whelton
                              Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2006 1:44 PM
                              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Egyptian temple econoomy

                              Dear Liz,

                              I said there is no archaeological evidence of the people who lived in
                              Assyria and the Indus, and very little for the people who lived in
                              Babylon,
                              during the Persian period. By "archaeological" I meant the foundations
                              of
                              houses, palaces, temples and warehouses that were constructed during
                              this
                              period... along with graves, grave goods, tombs, gates, monuments,
                              garbage
                              pits, weapons, jewelry, cultic objects, pottery, etc. The textual
                              evidence
                              of cuneiform tablets, papyri and other writings is very important, but
                              it
                              also raises an important question. Where did the Persian-period people
                              who
                              created these writings live and work? Where are the scribes buried?
                              Where
                              are the remains of their workshops and pottery? Writing is a hallmark of

                              higher civilization, and economic tablets indicate that wealth poured
                              into
                              the temples, and from there to the palace. I do not doubt it. But why
                              haven't we been able to find evidence of the material culture of these
                              wealth producers, and wealth consumers? Why were no new temples, palaces
                              or
                              houses built for 200 years? The production of wealth requires
                              infrastructure. So why is wealth-producing infrastructure missing from
                              the
                              Persian period in what must have been Persia's three most valuable
                              satrapies?

                              Clark Whelton
                              New York






                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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