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Cross-cultural marriages in the ANE

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  • Gerald A. Klingbeil
    Well, seeing that Victor challenged us to stay a bit away from the Bible, or the historicity of the Bible, let me throw in something that I have been thinking
    Message 1 of 18 , Feb 16, 2006
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      Well, seeing that Victor challenged us to stay a bit away from
      the Bible, or the historicity of the Bible, let me throw in
      something that I have been thinking about recently. Where in
      the ANE (texts, images, etc.) can you see traces of cross-
      cultural marriages? Obviously, this firstly requires a definition
      of what would one consider a cultural boundary. We all know
      of politically motivated marriages in the ANE in order to
      cement the relationship between two reigning families from
      different city states/tribes, etc. I remember a reference about
      Shamshi-Adad I, king of Ekallatum and contemporary of
      Hammurabi who mentions a strategic marriage of his family
      with the kings of Qatna. I think there is also evidence that
      Beltum, the daughter of Ishi-Adad of Qatna was married to
      Yasmah-Adad, king of Mari.

      It seems to me that a definition of culture in the context of the
      ANE would focus upon language, customs and material culture,
      and possibly also religion. Differences in these key areas
      should be considered cross-cultural. Cross-cultural marriage
      always are wonderfully difficult as well as surprising (I am
      talking from experience :-))... so let me hear what you think.
      Can you provide some relevant bibliography? Texts? Ideas?
      Feedback? The Egyptologists on this list: do you see
      documentation for this phenomenon in Egyptian texts? How
      would Egyptians have described a cross-cultural marriage?

      I am looking forward to hear from feedback.

      Gerald

      Gerald A. Klingbeil, D.Litt.
      Adventist International Institute of Advanced Studies,
      P.O. Box 038, Silang, Cavite 4118
      PHILIPPINES

      Professor of Hebrew Bible and Ancient Near Eastern Studies
      Editor Asia Adventist Seminary Studies
      e-mail: gklingbeil@...
      Phone: +63-46-414-4348 (office) 63-46-414-4409 (home)
    • Cooper, Marc
      There s a Sumerian composition called the Bride of Martu. Also, Ur III kings made it policy to send some of their daughters off to marry foreigners. I have
      Message 2 of 18 , Feb 16, 2006
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        There's a Sumerian composition called the "Bride of Martu." Also, Ur III
        kings made it policy to send some of their daughters off to marry
        foreigners. I have the impression that the Ur III folks believed that a
        princess could civilize even the Marhashi people.

        Marc Cooper
        Missouri State - History

        -----Original Message-----
        From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        Gerald A. Klingbeil
        Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 3:36 AM
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [ANE-2] Cross-cultural marriages in the ANE

        Well, seeing that Victor challenged us to stay a bit away from
        the Bible, or the historicity of the Bible, let me throw in
        something that I have been thinking about recently. Where in
        the ANE (texts, images, etc.) can you see traces of cross-
        cultural marriages? Obviously, this firstly requires a definition
        of what would one consider a cultural boundary. We all know
        of politically motivated marriages in the ANE in order to
        cement the relationship between two reigning families from
        different city states/tribes, etc. I remember a reference about
        Shamshi-Adad I, king of Ekallatum and contemporary of
        Hammurabi who mentions a strategic marriage of his family
        with the kings of Qatna. I think there is also evidence that
        Beltum, the daughter of Ishi-Adad of Qatna was married to
        Yasmah-Adad, king of Mari.

        It seems to me that a definition of culture in the context of the
        ANE would focus upon language, customs and material culture,
        and possibly also religion. Differences in these key areas
        should be considered cross-cultural. Cross-cultural marriage
        always are wonderfully difficult as well as surprising (I am
        talking from experience :-))... so let me hear what you think.
        Can you provide some relevant bibliography? Texts? Ideas?
        Feedback? The Egyptologists on this list: do you see
        documentation for this phenomenon in Egyptian texts? How
        would Egyptians have described a cross-cultural marriage?

        I am looking forward to hear from feedback.

        Gerald

        Gerald A. Klingbeil, D.Litt.
        Adventist International Institute of Advanced Studies,
        P.O. Box 038, Silang, Cavite 4118
        PHILIPPINES

        Professor of Hebrew Bible and Ancient Near Eastern Studies
        Editor Asia Adventist Seminary Studies
        e-mail: gklingbeil@...
        Phone: +63-46-414-4348 (office) 63-46-414-4409 (home)






        Yahoo! Groups Links
      • victor avigdor hurowitz
        Wtih your kind indulgence, just a minor point - the composition you refer to is better known, I think, as the Marriage of Martu . That is how it is called, at
        Message 3 of 18 , Feb 16, 2006
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          Wtih your kind indulgence, just a minor point - the composition you refer
          to is better known, I think, as
          "the Marriage of Martu". That is how it is called, at least, in Samuel
          Kramer's edition in the Pinhas Artzi Festschrift published by Bar Ilan
          University and in the comments to it published by Jacob Klein in the
          Rafael Kutscher Memorial Volume (Tel Aviv Occasional Publications 1)
          Victor



          On Thu, 16 Feb 2006, Cooper, Marc wrote:

          > There's a Sumerian composition called the "Bride of Martu." Also, Ur III
          > kings made it policy to send some of their daughters off to marry
          > foreigners. I have the impression that the Ur III folks believed that a
          > princess could civilize even the Marhashi people.
          >
          > Marc Cooper
          > Missouri State - History
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          > Gerald A. Klingbeil
          > Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 3:36 AM
          > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [ANE-2] Cross-cultural marriages in the ANE
          >
          > Well, seeing that Victor challenged us to stay a bit away from
          > the Bible, or the historicity of the Bible, let me throw in
          > something that I have been thinking about recently. Where in
          > the ANE (texts, images, etc.) can you see traces of cross-
          > cultural marriages? Obviously, this firstly requires a definition
          > of what would one consider a cultural boundary. We all know
          > of politically motivated marriages in the ANE in order to
          > cement the relationship between two reigning families from
          > different city states/tribes, etc. I remember a reference about
          > Shamshi-Adad I, king of Ekallatum and contemporary of
          > Hammurabi who mentions a strategic marriage of his family
          > with the kings of Qatna. I think there is also evidence that
          > Beltum, the daughter of Ishi-Adad of Qatna was married to
          > Yasmah-Adad, king of Mari.
          >
          > It seems to me that a definition of culture in the context of the
          > ANE would focus upon language, customs and material culture,
          > and possibly also religion. Differences in these key areas
          > should be considered cross-cultural. Cross-cultural marriage
          > always are wonderfully difficult as well as surprising (I am
          > talking from experience :-))... so let me hear what you think.
          > Can you provide some relevant bibliography? Texts? Ideas?
          > Feedback? The Egyptologists on this list: do you see
          > documentation for this phenomenon in Egyptian texts? How
          > would Egyptians have described a cross-cultural marriage?
          >
          > I am looking forward to hear from feedback.
          >
          > Gerald
          >
          > Gerald A. Klingbeil, D.Litt.
          > Adventist International Institute of Advanced Studies,
          > P.O. Box 038, Silang, Cavite 4118
          > PHILIPPINES
          >
          > Professor of Hebrew Bible and Ancient Near Eastern Studies
          > Editor Asia Adventist Seminary Studies
          > e-mail: gklingbeil@...
          > Phone: +63-46-414-4348 (office) 63-46-414-4409 (home)
          >
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          > Yahoo! Groups Links
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          > Yahoo! Groups Links
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        • Cooper, Marc
          Of course you are right. I was thinking of The Bride of Simanum, P. Michalowski, Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 95:4 (1975) 716-719. ... Marc
          Message 4 of 18 , Feb 16, 2006
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            Of course you are right. I was thinking of "The Bride of Simanum," P.
            Michalowski, Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 95:4 (1975)
            716-719.

            ------------------------------------------------------------
            Marc Cooper
            History
            Missouri State University



            >-----Original Message-----
            >From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            >victor avigdor hurowitz
            >Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 12:15 PM
            >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Cross-cultural marriages in the ANE
            >
            >Wtih your kind indulgence, just a minor point - the composition you
            refer
            >to is better known, I think, as
            >"the Marriage of Martu". That is how it is called, at least, in Samuel
            >Kramer's edition in the Pinhas Artzi Festschrift published by Bar Ilan
            >University and in the comments to it published by Jacob Klein in the
            >Rafael Kutscher Memorial Volume (Tel Aviv Occasional Publications 1)
            >Victor
            >
            >
            >
            >On Thu, 16 Feb 2006, Cooper, Marc wrote:
            >
            >> There's a Sumerian composition called the "Bride of Martu." Also, Ur
            III
            >> kings made it policy to send some of their daughters off to marry
            >> foreigners. I have the impression that the Ur III folks believed that
            a
            >> princess could civilize even the Marhashi people.
            >>
            >> Marc Cooper
            >> Missouri State - History
            >>
            >> -----Original Message-----
            >> From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
            Of
            >> Gerald A. Klingbeil
            >> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 3:36 AM
            >> To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            >> Subject: [ANE-2] Cross-cultural marriages in the ANE
            >>
            >> Well, seeing that Victor challenged us to stay a bit away from
            >> the Bible, or the historicity of the Bible, let me throw in
            >> something that I have been thinking about recently. Where in
            >> the ANE (texts, images, etc.) can you see traces of cross-
            >> cultural marriages? Obviously, this firstly requires a definition
            >> of what would one consider a cultural boundary. We all know
            >> of politically motivated marriages in the ANE in order to
            >> cement the relationship between two reigning families from
            >> different city states/tribes, etc. I remember a reference about
            >> Shamshi-Adad I, king of Ekallatum and contemporary of
            >> Hammurabi who mentions a strategic marriage of his family
            >> with the kings of Qatna. I think there is also evidence that
            >> Beltum, the daughter of Ishi-Adad of Qatna was married to
            >> Yasmah-Adad, king of Mari.
            >>
            >> It seems to me that a definition of culture in the context of the
            >> ANE would focus upon language, customs and material culture,
            >> and possibly also religion. Differences in these key areas
            >> should be considered cross-cultural. Cross-cultural marriage
            >> always are wonderfully difficult as well as surprising (I am
            >> talking from experience :-))... so let me hear what you think.
            >> Can you provide some relevant bibliography? Texts? Ideas?
            >> Feedback? The Egyptologists on this list: do you see
            >> documentation for this phenomenon in Egyptian texts? How
            >> would Egyptians have described a cross-cultural marriage?
            >>
            >> I am looking forward to hear from feedback.
            >>
            >> Gerald
            >>
            >> Gerald A. Klingbeil, D.Litt.
            >> Adventist International Institute of Advanced Studies,
            >> P.O. Box 038, Silang, Cavite 4118
            >> PHILIPPINES
            >>
            >> Professor of Hebrew Bible and Ancient Near Eastern Studies
            >> Editor Asia Adventist Seminary Studies
            >> e-mail: gklingbeil@...
            >> Phone: +63-46-414-4348 (office) 63-46-414-4409 (home)
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
            >>
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            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
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            >Yahoo! Groups Links
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          • Ariel L. Szczupak
            ... Zimri-Lim too. ... I m not sure to which degree it would qualify as cross-cultural, but I recall there s a case of an Assyrian-Babylonian political
            Message 5 of 18 , Feb 16, 2006
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              At 11:36 16/02/2006, Gerald A. Klingbeil wrote:
              >Well, seeing that Victor challenged us to stay a bit away from
              >the Bible, or the historicity of the Bible, let me throw in
              >something that I have been thinking about recently. Where in
              >the ANE (texts, images, etc.) can you see traces of cross-
              >cultural marriages? Obviously, this firstly requires a definition
              >of what would one consider a cultural boundary. We all know
              >of politically motivated marriages in the ANE in order to
              >cement the relationship between two reigning families from
              >different city states/tribes, etc. I remember a reference about
              >Shamshi-Adad I, king of Ekallatum and contemporary of
              >Hammurabi who mentions a strategic marriage of his family
              >with the kings of Qatna. I think there is also evidence that
              >Beltum, the daughter of Ishi-Adad of Qatna was married to
              >Yasmah-Adad, king of Mari.

              Zimri-Lim too.

              >It seems to me that a definition of culture in the context of the
              >ANE would focus upon language, customs and material culture,
              >and possibly also religion. Differences in these key areas
              >should be considered cross-cultural. Cross-cultural marriage
              >always are wonderfully difficult as well as surprising (I am
              >talking from experience :-))... so let me hear what you think.
              >Can you provide some relevant bibliography? Texts? Ideas?
              >Feedback? The Egyptologists on this list: do you see
              >documentation for this phenomenon in Egyptian texts? How
              >would Egyptians have described a cross-cultural marriage?

              I'm not sure to which degree it would qualify as cross-cultural, but
              I recall there's a case of an Assyrian-Babylonian political marriage.

              But I'm functioning on memory alone, and with my dysnomia the names
              won't surface. If no one else can get more details quickly I'll try
              and look up specific refs Saturday.


              Ariel.

              [100% bona fide dilettante ... delecto ergo sum!]

              ---
              Ariel L. Szczupak
              AMIS-JLM (Ricercar Ltd.)
              POB 4707, Jerusalem, Israel 91401
              Phone: +972-2-5619660 Fax: +972-2-5634203
              ane.als@... http://amis-jlm.co.il
            • Stern, Richard H.
              How come none of you mention Ruth and Boaz, Tamar and Judah and sons? ===================================== Best regards. Richard H. Stern rstern@computer.org
              Message 6 of 18 , Feb 16, 2006
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                How come none of you mention Ruth and Boaz, Tamar and Judah and sons?
                =====================================
                Best regards.

                Richard H. Stern
                rstern@... rstern@...
                Washington, DC
                http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/rhs1.htm
                =====================================


                -----Original Message-----
                From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                Ariel L. Szczupak
                Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 4:27 PM
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Cross-cultural marriages in the ANE


                At 11:36 16/02/2006, Gerald A. Klingbeil wrote:
                >Well, seeing that Victor challenged us to stay a bit away from
                >the Bible, or the historicity of the Bible, let me throw in
                >something that I have been thinking about recently. Where in
                >the ANE (texts, images, etc.) can you see traces of cross-
                >cultural marriages? Obviously, this firstly requires a definition
                >of what would one consider a cultural boundary. We all know
                >of politically motivated marriages in the ANE in order to
                >cement the relationship between two reigning families from
                >different city states/tribes, etc. I remember a reference about
                >Shamshi-Adad I, king of Ekallatum and contemporary of
                >Hammurabi who mentions a strategic marriage of his family
                >with the kings of Qatna. I think there is also evidence that
                >Beltum, the daughter of Ishi-Adad of Qatna was married to
                >Yasmah-Adad, king of Mari.

                Zimri-Lim too.

                >It seems to me that a definition of culture in the context of the
                >ANE would focus upon language, customs and material culture,
                >and possibly also religion. Differences in these key areas
                >should be considered cross-cultural. Cross-cultural marriage
                >always are wonderfully difficult as well as surprising (I am
                >talking from experience :-))... so let me hear what you think.
                >Can you provide some relevant bibliography? Texts? Ideas?
                >Feedback? The Egyptologists on this list: do you see
                >documentation for this phenomenon in Egyptian texts? How
                >would Egyptians have described a cross-cultural marriage?

                I'm not sure to which degree it would qualify as cross-cultural, but
                I recall there's a case of an Assyrian-Babylonian political marriage.

                But I'm functioning on memory alone, and with my dysnomia the names
                won't surface. If no one else can get more details quickly I'll try
                and look up specific refs Saturday.


                Ariel.

                [100% bona fide dilettante ... delecto ergo sum!]

                ---
                Ariel L. Szczupak
                AMIS-JLM (Ricercar Ltd.)
                POB 4707, Jerusalem, Israel 91401
                Phone: +972-2-5619660 Fax: +972-2-5634203
                ane.als@... http://amis-jlm.co.il






                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • Graham Hagens
                ... this firstly ... all know ... Hugely in Egypt during the late 21st/early 22n dynasties as the Libyans in Bubastis moved to take over power from the
                Message 7 of 18 , Feb 16, 2006
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                  Gerald A. Klingbeil wrote Thursday, February 16:

                  >Where in the ANR can you see traces of cross-cultural marriages? Obviously,
                  this firstly
                  >requires a definition of what would one consider a cultural boundary. We
                  all know
                  >of politically motivated marriages in the ANE in order to
                  >cement the relationship between two reigning families from

                  Hugely in Egypt during the late 21st/early 22n dynasties as the Libyans in
                  Bubastis moved to take over power from the Ramesside successors in Tanis.
                  See Kitchen TIP for details.
                  I don't recall much information about when the Libyans (who began their
                  invasion at the end of the 19th dyn) absorbed Egyptian language & culture.

                  Graham Hagens
                • Judith Lerner
                  Evidence of a cross-cultural marriage of a somewhat later date in Egypt is the funerary stele from Saqqara dating to the Persian occupation (the excavators
                  Message 8 of 18 , Feb 16, 2006
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                    Evidence of a cross-cultural marriage of a somewhat later date in Egypt is
                    the funerary stele from Saqqara dating to the Persian occupation (the
                    excavators assign it to the first period, 524-404 BCE). It belonged to
                    Djedherbes, a good Egyptian name, whose father, Artam, was Persian-named and
                    mother, Tanofrether, Egyptian-named. The iconography is Egyptian, although
                    the figure of the deceased (dress, hair and beard) and the chair on which he
                    sits are Achaemenid in style. See I. J. Mathieson et al, Journal of Egyptian
                    Archaeology 81 (1995) 23-41.

                    Judith Lerner
                    New York, NY


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                    Graham Hagens
                    Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 7:17 PM
                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Cross-cultural marriages in the ANE



                    Gerald A. Klingbeil wrote Thursday, February 16:

                    >Where in the ANR can you see traces of cross-cultural marriages? Obviously,
                    this firstly
                    >requires a definition of what would one consider a cultural boundary. We
                    all know
                    >of politically motivated marriages in the ANE in order to
                    >cement the relationship between two reigning families from

                    Hugely in Egypt during the late 21st/early 22n dynasties as the Libyans in
                    Bubastis moved to take over power from the Ramesside successors in Tanis.
                    See Kitchen TIP for details.
                    I don't recall much information about when the Libyans (who began their
                    invasion at the end of the 19th dyn) absorbed Egyptian language & culture.

                    Graham Hagens






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                  • Ford Mommaerts-Browne
                    There was also a great-grandson of Judah, who married a daughter of Pharaoh. Supposedly the daughter who found Moshe. ... From: Stern, Richard H. To:
                    Message 9 of 18 , Feb 16, 2006
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                      There was also a great-grandson of Judah, who married a daughter of
                      Pharaoh. Supposedly the daughter who found Moshe.
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Stern, Richard H.
                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 5:40 PM
                      Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Cross-cultural marriages in the ANE


                      How come none of you mention Ruth and Boaz, Tamar and Judah and sons?
                      =====================================
                      Best regards.

                      Richard H. Stern
                      rstern@... rstern@...
                      Washington, DC
                      http://docs.law.gwu.edu/facweb/claw/rhs1.htm
                      =====================================


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Ford Mommaerts-Browne
                      What about the marriages of Kassite princesses to Elamite princes? Or the marriage of a couple of Jewish princesses to Assyrian emperors? Ford Mommaerts-Browne
                      Message 10 of 18 , Feb 16, 2006
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                        What about the marriages of Kassite princesses to Elamite princes?
                        Or the marriage of a couple of Jewish princesses to Assyrian emperors?
                        Ford Mommaerts-Browne
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Cooper, Marc
                        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 1:49 PM
                        Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Cross-cultural marriages in the ANE


                        There's a Sumerian composition called the "Bride of Martu." Also, Ur III
                        kings made it policy to send some of their daughters off to marry
                        foreigners. I have the impression that the Ur III folks believed that a
                        princess could civilize even the Marhashi people.

                        Marc Cooper
                        Missouri State - History

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                        Gerald A. Klingbeil
                        Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 3:36 AM
                        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [ANE-2] Cross-cultural marriages in the ANE

                        Well, seeing that Victor challenged us to stay a bit away from
                        the Bible, or the historicity of the Bible, let me throw in
                        something that I have been thinking about recently. Where in
                        the ANE (texts, images, etc.) can you see traces of cross-
                        cultural marriages? Obviously, this firstly requires a definition
                        of what would one consider a cultural boundary. We all know
                        of politically motivated marriages in the ANE in order to
                        cement the relationship between two reigning families from
                        different city states/tribes, etc. I remember a reference about
                        Shamshi-Adad I, king of Ekallatum and contemporary of
                        Hammurabi who mentions a strategic marriage of his family
                        with the kings of Qatna. I think there is also evidence that
                        Beltum, the daughter of Ishi-Adad of Qatna was married to
                        Yasmah-Adad, king of Mari.

                        It seems to me that a definition of culture in the context of the
                        ANE would focus upon language, customs and material culture,
                        and possibly also religion. Differences in these key areas
                        should be considered cross-cultural. Cross-cultural marriage
                        always are wonderfully difficult as well as surprising (I am
                        talking from experience :-))... so let me hear what you think.
                        Can you provide some relevant bibliography? Texts? Ideas?
                        Feedback? The Egyptologists on this list: do you see
                        documentation for this phenomenon in Egyptian texts? How
                        would Egyptians have described a cross-cultural marriage?

                        I am looking forward to hear from feedback.

                        Gerald

                        Gerald A. Klingbeil, D.Litt.
                        Adventist International Institute of Advanced Studies,
                        P.O. Box 038, Silang, Cavite 4118
                        PHILIPPINES

                        Professor of Hebrew Bible and Ancient Near Eastern Studies
                        Editor Asia Adventist Seminary Studies
                        e-mail: gklingbeil@...
                        Phone: +63-46-414-4348 (office) 63-46-414-4409 (home)

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Rudolf H. Mayr
                        At the end of the Third Millennium, B. C., Southern Mesopotamia had a fairly homogeneous culture comprised of people descended from both Sumerian-speaking and
                        Message 11 of 18 , Feb 16, 2006
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                          At the end of the Third Millennium, B. C., Southern Mesopotamia had a
                          fairly homogeneous culture comprised of people descended from both
                          Sumerian-speaking and Semitic-speaking ancestors. At this time it was
                          common for some neighbors, or even members of the same family, to have
                          Semitic names while others had Sumerian names. At earlier times,
                          however, the languages, and other aspects of culture as well, had been
                          more clearly separated. It seems the Sumerians and their Semitic-
                          speaking neighbors had once been distinct peoples with their own
                          respective cultures, occupying adjacent geographical areas (the Semitic-
                          speaking people were generally in the north, the Sumerians in the
                          south).

                          So I wonder: is the simple fact, that these cultures blended over time,
                          evidence of cross-cultural marriages?

                          Rudi Mayr
                          Lawrenceville, NJ
                        • Gerald A. Klingbeil
                          Thanks for everybody s ideas. Rudi, I get the feeling that the blending of cultures, particularly in the ANE, also involved cross-cultural marriages. Lacking
                          Message 12 of 18 , Feb 16, 2006
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                            Thanks for everybody's ideas. Rudi, I get the feeling that the
                            blending of cultures, particularly in the ANE, also involved
                            cross-cultural marriages. Lacking the modern concept of a
                            "nation", the father's house (to use the biblical term), clan,
                            family or tribe changed by intermarriage. I would guess that
                            most of these changes were subtle and slow.

                            Judith, thanks for the reference to Mathieson's work. I will
                            have to look at it (hopefully will find the article here). Would
                            the Libyans' taking over Egypt be considered cross-cultural
                            interaction or just plain "conquest" (even though it took them
                            quite a while to do it?)? Obviously, there are quite a number of
                            biblical examples... some have already been mentioned. Uriah
                            and Bethsheba, Judah (and his sons) and Tamar, Rut and
                            Boaz, or the mixed marriages of the time of Ezra/Nehemiah,
                            etc. come to mind.

                            Were these marriages "successful", i.e. did the transform the
                            host culture or the party that joined the host culture?

                            Well, any more thoughts on this would be interesting. There
                            are obvious modern ramifications.

                            By the way N.P.: it seems as if Caesar and Cleopatra did not
                            work out too well :-)

                            Gerald

                            Gerald A. Klingbeil, D.Litt.
                            Adventist International Institute of Advanced Studies,
                            P.O. Box 038, Silang, Cavite 4118
                            PHILIPPINES

                            Professor of Hebrew Bible and Ancient Near Eastern Studies
                            Editor Asia Adventist Seminary Studies
                            e-mail: gklingbeil@...
                            Phone: +63-46-414-4348 (office) 63-46-414-4409 (home)
                          • Ariel L. Szczupak
                            At 23:27 16/02/2006, Ariel L. Szczupak wrote: [...] ... During the night I had the brilliant idea to check in CANE. Assur-uballit I and Shalmaneser III married
                            Message 13 of 18 , Feb 16, 2006
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                              At 23:27 16/02/2006, Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:
                              [...]

                              >I'm not sure to which degree it would qualify as cross-cultural, but
                              >I recall there's a case of an Assyrian-Babylonian political marriage.

                              During the night I had the brilliant idea to check in CANE.
                              Assur-uballit I and Shalmaneser III married their daughters to native
                              Babylonian rulers [p.965]. A good source to search for other cases, a
                              cane to lean on when memory fails ....


                              Ariel.

                              [100% bona fide dilettante ... delecto ergo sum!]

                              ---
                              Ariel L. Szczupak
                              AMIS-JLM (Ricercar Ltd.)
                              POB 4707, Jerusalem, Israel 91401
                              Phone: +972-2-5619660 Fax: +972-2-5634203
                              ane.als@... http://amis-jlm.co.il
                            • Gary Greenberg
                              ... One of the more interesting examples, whether historical or mythical, would seem to be the marriage of Jacob s daughter Dinah to Hamor the prince of
                              Message 14 of 18 , Feb 17, 2006
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                                > quite a while to do it?)? Obviously, there are quite a number of
                                > biblical examples... some have already been mentioned. Uriah
                                > and Bethsheba, Judah (and his sons) and Tamar, Rut and
                                > Boaz, or the mixed marriages of the time of Ezra/Nehemiah,
                                > etc. come to mind.
                                >
                                > Were these marriages "successful", i.e. did the transform the
                                > host culture or the party that joined the host culture?

                                One of the more interesting examples, whether historical or mythical, would
                                seem to be the marriage of Jacob's daughter Dinah to Hamor the prince of
                                Shechem and the subsequent conflict that arose.

                                Gary Greenberg
                              • Richard S. Ellis
                                ... Shulgi of the Ur III dynasty married some of his daughters to rulers in Iran. Dick Ellis
                                Message 15 of 18 , Feb 23, 2006
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                                  Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:
                                  > At 23:27 16/02/2006, Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:
                                  > [...]
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >>I'm not sure to which degree it would qualify as cross-cultural, but
                                  >>I recall there's a case of an Assyrian-Babylonian political marriage.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > During the night I had the brilliant idea to check in CANE.
                                  > Assur-uballit I and Shalmaneser III married their daughters to native
                                  > Babylonian rulers [p.965]. A good source to search for other cases, a
                                  > cane to lean on when memory fails ....


                                  Shulgi of the Ur III dynasty married some of his daughters to rulers in
                                  Iran.

                                  Dick Ellis
                                • Lisbeth S. Fried
                                  The first Cleopatra was the daughter of the Seleucid king Antiochus II, I believe, and there was also another marriage between the Seleucids and the Ptolemies
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Feb 23, 2006
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                                    The first Cleopatra was the daughter of the Seleucid king Antiochus II, I
                                    believe, and there was also another marriage between the Seleucids and the
                                    Ptolemies (which I forget right now, too much wine at dinner). Also there
                                    were a lot of intermarriages between the Jews of the garrison at Elephantine
                                    and the Egyptians, and if you believe Ezra-Nehemiah, between the Jews and
                                    the neighboring peoples.

                                    Best,

                                    Liz Fried



                                    _____

                                    From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                    Richard S. Ellis
                                    Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 8:26 PM
                                    To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Cross-cultural marriages in the ANE





                                    Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:
                                    > At 23:27 16/02/2006, Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:
                                    > [...]
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >>I'm not sure to which degree it would qualify as cross-cultural, but
                                    >>I recall there's a case of an Assyrian-Babylonian political marriage.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > During the night I had the brilliant idea to check in CANE.
                                    > Assur-uballit I and Shalmaneser III married their daughters to native
                                    > Babylonian rulers [p.965]. A good source to search for other cases, a
                                    > cane to lean on when memory fails ....


                                    Shulgi of the Ur III dynasty married some of his daughters to rulers in
                                    Iran.

                                    Dick Ellis






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                                  • Ford Mommaerts-Browne
                                    ... From: Lisbeth S. Fried To: Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 12:27 AM Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Cross-cultural
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Feb 23, 2006
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                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "Lisbeth S. Fried" <lizfried@...>
                                      To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 12:27 AM
                                      Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Cross-cultural marriages in the ANE


                                      <snip> [T]here
                                      | were a lot of intermarriages between the Jews of the garrison at Elephantine
                                      | and the Egyptians, and if you believe Ezra-Nehemiah, between the Jews and
                                      | the neighboring peoples.
                                      | Best,
                                      | Liz Fried

                                      Believe it! But could you tell more about the Elephantine intermarriages? Is there any record there of the Oniads?
                                      Ford
                                    • christopherjbennett
                                      ... Antiochus II, I ... and the ... Actually it was Antiochus III. There were quite a few intermarriages between the Seleucids and the Ptolemies, you can see
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Feb 24, 2006
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                                        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Lisbeth S. Fried" <lizfried@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > The first Cleopatra was the daughter of the Seleucid king
                                        Antiochus II, I
                                        > believe, and there was also another marriage between the Seleucids
                                        and the
                                        > Ptolemies (which I forget right now, too much wine at dinner).

                                        Actually it was Antiochus III. There were quite a few
                                        intermarriages between the Seleucids and the Ptolemies, you can see
                                        the details at my website at
                                        http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/Egypt/ptolemies/affilates/aff_seleucids.
                                        htm

                                        But do these really count as cross-cultural? Ptolemaic and Seleucid
                                        marriages that would include:

                                        -- Ptolemy I and Seleucus to the Persians Artakama and Apama
                                        -- Berenice, (most probably) daughter of Ptolemy VIII, to
                                        Psherenptah, high Priest of Memphis
                                        -- a daughter of Seleucus I supposedly to Chandragupta Maurya
                                        -- Demetrius II to a daughter of Mithridates II of Parthia

                                        Cleopatra's liaisons with Caesar and Antony might also be thought of
                                        as cross-cultural. Its an interesting question as to how much
                                        exposure it takes to erode the definition.

                                        Chris Bennett
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