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Sumerian for Mountain of Heaven

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  • Doug Weller
    Hi, I ve been presented with something which I think is just another form of silliness, as I ve been offered the word ATAL.AN.IS which is supposed to have
    Message 1 of 8 , Sep 3, 2006
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      Hi,

      I've been presented with something which I think is just another form of silliness, as I've been offered the word ATAL.AN.IS which is supposed to have something to do with a flood engulfing the Mountain of Heaven -- and therefore, something to do with, you guessed it, Atlantis!

      I'm offered the following web sites as proof

      http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e32.html
      http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e347.html
      http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e2746.html

      I know nothing about Sumerian, so I don't know if I should put any credence in this. Any Sumerian experts here?

      Thanks

      Doug


      --
      Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated
      Director and Moderator The Hall of Ma'at http://www.thehallofmaat.com
      Doug and Helen's Dogs: http://www.dougandhelen.com
      Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
    • Chris Weimer
      I m not a Sumerian expert by a long shot, but indeed the words don t even match up. How do they account for the added a and missing t ? Furthermore, is
      Message 2 of 8 , Sep 3, 2006
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        I'm not a Sumerian expert by a long shot, but indeed the words don't
        even match up. How do they account for the added 'a' and missing 't'?
        Furthermore, is there an actual word he presents, or merely did he
        pick and choose selected sounds to suit his theory? I honestly find no
        correlation between "to engulf" "sky" and "mountain" with Atlantis.
        There's nothing there but what he imagines it so!

        Chris Weimer

        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Doug Weller <dweller@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi,
        >
        > I've been presented with something which I think is just another
        form of silliness, as I've been offered the word ATAL.AN.IS which is
        supposed to have something to do with a flood engulfing the Mountain
        of Heaven -- and therefore, something to do with, you guessed it,
        Atlantis!
        >
        > I'm offered the following web sites as proof
        >
        > http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e32.html
        > http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e347.html
        > http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e2746.html
        >
        > I know nothing about Sumerian, so I don't know if I should put any
        credence in this. Any Sumerian experts here?
        >
        > Thanks
        >
        > Doug
        >
        >
        > --
        > Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated
        > Director and Moderator The Hall of Ma'at http://www.thehallofmaat.com
        > Doug and Helen's Dogs: http://www.dougandhelen.com
        > Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
        >
      • Trudy Kawami
        Doug, My first reaction was Huhhh?? (by which you can see I am no Sumerologist). What was the context in which this word appeared? That unit ATAL looks
        Message 3 of 8 , Sep 3, 2006
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          Doug,
          My first reaction was "Huhhh??" (by which you can see I am no Sumerologist). What was the context in which this word appeared? That "unit" ATAL looks very odd. As you can see from the Penn website, the word is written in TWO characters not one as implied by the lack of a period after the initial A. The entire "word" is odd indeed.
          Trudy Kawami





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Marc Cooper
          This is nonsense, as you suspected. It doesn t make grammatical sense, nor does it appear in any real text. Also, the word for mountain is i$i, not is. Much
          Message 4 of 8 , Sep 3, 2006
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            This is nonsense, as you suspected. It doesn't make grammatical
            sense, nor does it appear in any real text. Also, the word for
            mountain is i$i, not is. Much better is Quenya "atalante" whch means
            the downfallen among the high elves. :-)

            Marc Cooper

            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Doug Weller <dweller@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi,
            >
            > I've been presented with something which I think is just another
            form of silliness, as I've been offered the word ATAL.AN.IS which is
            supposed to have something to do with a flood engulfing the Mountain
            of Heaven -- and therefore, something to do with, you guessed it,
            Atlantis!
            >
            > I'm offered the following web sites as proof
            >
            > http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e32.html
            > http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e347.html
            > http://psd.museum.upenn.edu/epsd/epsd/e2746.html
            >
            > I know nothing about Sumerian, so I don't know if I should put any
            credence in this. Any Sumerian experts here?
            >
            > Thanks
            >
            > Doug
            >
            >
            > --
            > Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated
            > Director and Moderator The Hall of Ma'at
            http://www.thehallofmaat.com
            > Doug and Helen's Dogs: http://www.dougandhelen.com
            > Doug's Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
            >
          • Jan Picton
            AN EGYPTIAN FANTASIA An Egyptian Fantasia - a Celebration of Egypt Ancient and Modern will be a festival of food and culture, art and performance, and much
            Message 5 of 8 , Sep 3, 2006
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              'AN EGYPTIAN FANTASIA'

              An Egyptian Fantasia - a Celebration of Egypt Ancient and Modern will be a festival of food and culture, art and performance, and much more.
              Music and dance performances, story-telling, a display of authentic
              replica costumes, and exhibitions. The evening continues with a feast of Middle Eastern delicacies accompanied by further performance, with each table hosted by a guest Egyptologist. This will be followed by a guest speaker, Dr Barbara Mertz, better known as Elizabeth Peters, author of the successful Amelia Peabody Egyptian mysteries. The evening concludes with an auction of art and Egyptomania items.

              The auction will take place on the evening of September 16th but as with the annual Petrie Book Auction it is possible to participate online - items on view on www.ucl.ac.uk.FriendsofPetrie - follow the link and register to place bids by email

              organised by the Friends of the Petrie Museum
              16 September 2006
              Venue: South Cloisters UCL, Gower St, London WC1
              Time 4pm - midnight (or 4-6.30pm)
              Full ticket, 4pm - midnight, £200; prequel ticket, 4pm - 6.30pm, £50.

              For further information, visit the Friends of the Petrie Museum website
              (www.ucl.ac.uk/FriendsofPetrie) or contact Jan Picton
              (j.picton@...). For enquiries about the event please contact Jan
              Picton on 07761 823129, or at the Petrie Museum UCL, Malet Place, London
              WC1E 6BT.

              --
            • Doug Weller
              Thanks. He won t give up, his latest post (in reply to mine, where one of the things I said, and I still think I am right, is that Sumerian is verb final, but
              Message 6 of 8 , Sep 4, 2006
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                Thanks.
                He won't give up, his latest post (in reply to mine, where one of the things I said, and I still think I am right, is that Sumerian is verb final, but he gives an example where it isn't) is here:

                ""THere is no word ATAL"

                so why does this say there is
                [psd.museum.upenn.edu]

                And the Sumerian word for mountain seems to be HUR.SAG,
                there are lots of sumerian words for mountain
                [psd.museum.upenn.edu]
                why don't you try using this resource to find them instead of assuming
                you know what happens when you assume don't you Doug

                you will notice that one of the words for mountain is IS
                [psd.museum.upenn.edu]

                And Sumerian is a strictly verb-final language. Which is why a 'word' with the verb at the beginning makes no sense and can't be found in any real texts.
                it comes down to the text it is found in
                Atal if following on the end of a sentence would be found before AN and IS
                here is a famous line from the descent of inanna
                inana an mu-un-sub ki mu-un-sub kur-ra ba-e-a-ed3
                Inana abandoned heaven, abandoned earth, and descended to the underworld.
                as you can see the verbs are not all at the end of the sentence
                it depends on the placing of the genitatives ant the determinatives
                so you are talking bollox

                A.TAL.AN.IS

                how would you say it in english
                duh "

                Among other things I've said in my reply is that his word ATAL (now A.TAL I see) is 2 words, one of which, 'tal', seems to mean jug.

                Doug
              • Robert M Whiting
                Doug, you are simply wasting your time with this person. He does not know anything about Sumerian for if he did he would realize that no one who knows
                Message 7 of 8 , Sep 5, 2006
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                  Doug, you are simply wasting your time with this person. He does not know
                  anything about Sumerian for if he did he would realize that no one who
                  knows anything about Sumerian would countenance his suggestion for a
                  moment. He also show that he has no idea what SOV word order means. You
                  will not convince him that his idea is nonsense because he does not have
                  the knowledge base to be able to realize this. The fact that "he won't
                  give up" is simply characteristic of those who have no basis for
                  evaluating the shortcomings of their arguments.

                  Bob Whiting
                  whiting@...

                  On Tue, 5 Sep 2006, Doug Weller wrote:

                  > Thanks. He won't give up, his latest post (in reply to mine, where one
                  > of the things I said, and I still think I am right, is that Sumerian is
                  > verb final, but he gives an example where it isn't) is here:
                  >
                  > ""THere is no word ATAL"
                  >
                  > so why does this say there is
                  > [psd.museum.upenn.edu]
                  >
                  > And the Sumerian word for mountain seems to be HUR.SAG,
                  > there are lots of sumerian words for mountain
                  > [psd.museum.upenn.edu]
                  > why don't you try using this resource to find them instead of assuming
                  > you know what happens when you assume don't you Doug
                  >
                  > you will notice that one of the words for mountain is IS
                  > [psd.museum.upenn.edu]
                  >
                  > And Sumerian is a strictly verb-final language. Which is why a 'word'
                  > with the verb at the beginning makes no sense and can't be found in any
                  > real texts. it comes down to the text it is found in Atal if following
                  > on the end of a sentence would be found before AN and IS here is a
                  > famous line from the descent of inanna
                  > inana an mu-un-sub ki mu-un-sub kur-ra ba-e-a-ed3
                  > Inana abandoned heaven, abandoned earth, and descended to the
                  > underworld.
                  > as you can see the verbs are not all at the end of the sentence
                  > it depends on the placing of the genitatives ant the determinatives
                  > so you are talking bollox
                  >
                  > A.TAL.AN.IS
                  >
                  > how would you say it in english
                  > duh "
                  >
                  > Among other things I've said in my reply is that his word ATAL (now
                  > A.TAL I see) is 2 words, one of which, 'tal', seems to mean jug.
                  >
                  > Doug
                • Marc Cooper
                  Doug, There are two issues here. The first concerns the use of Sumerian in the etymology, and the second concerns methodology. Your correspondent claims that
                  Message 8 of 8 , Sep 5, 2006
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                    Doug,

                    There are two issues here. The first concerns the use of Sumerian in
                    the etymology, and the second concerns methodology.

                    Your correspondent claims that a2-tal an i$ is the etymology of
                    Atlantis. Here are problems I can see:

                    The PSD guesses that atal, a rare word, may mean engulf in Sumerian
                    based on the idea that it is an Akkadian loan word. In effect, the
                    meaning of the word is based on a reasonable guess, but it's just a
                    guess. The use of the word in the Atlantis etymology is therefore
                    weakened.

                    an-i$i doesn't mean heavenly mountain. In Sumerian, adjectives come
                    after the noun they modify.

                    Sumerian is not absolutely verb final, but objects regularly precede
                    verbs.

                    Finally, no such phrase exists in any Sumerian document, nor is
                    there referernce to an Atlantean type myth in the Sumerian literary
                    corpus.

                    Taken together, this is an extremely weak etymology.

                    But there is also a methodological issue. There is no special reason
                    to choose Sumerian words for an etymology. Even if I believed that
                    Plato offers a real tradition rather than a fictional illustration,
                    since he claims that Solon got the story from the Egyptians,
                    wouldn't Egyptian be the right place to look for an etymology? There
                    has to be some reason for the choice of underlying language. I take
                    it that the author found the PSD online and picked out some words
                    which strung together sound sort of like like Atlantis, forgetting
                    for the moment that the t isn't there and the s is an $. A good
                    etymology is a history of the word. How did Plato get Atlantis from
                    the Sumerians when the name doesn't occur in Akkadian or Egyptian so
                    that it can loaned to the Greeks?

                    Finally, any one can play this game. For instance, consider the
                    Sumerian phrase I$i-ra il which I just made up. Look familiar: it
                    means "Brought forth to the Mountain." You see if one has access to
                    many languages, and there are nearly infinite ways to describe
                    something, at least several of languages are likely to provide an
                    etymon. This is a matter of chance which cannot be taken seriously.
                    In the end, because it is very difficult to prove an etymology,
                    etymologies have to be reasonable to others in the field. This one
                    isn't.

                    Marc Cooper

                    --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Doug Weller <dweller@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Thanks.
                    > He won't give up, his latest post (in reply to mine, where one of
                    the things I said, and I still think I am right, is that Sumerian is
                    verb final, but he gives an example where it isn't) is here:
                    >
                    > ""THere is no word ATAL"
                    >
                    > so why does this say there is
                    > [psd.museum.upenn.edu]
                    >
                    > And the Sumerian word for mountain seems to be HUR.SAG,
                    > there are lots of sumerian words for mountain
                    > [psd.museum.upenn.edu]
                    > why don't you try using this resource to find them instead of
                    assuming
                    > you know what happens when you assume don't you Doug
                    >
                    > you will notice that one of the words for mountain is IS
                    > [psd.museum.upenn.edu]
                    >
                    > And Sumerian is a strictly verb-final language. Which is why
                    a 'word' with the verb at the beginning makes no sense and can't be
                    found in any real texts.
                    > it comes down to the text it is found in
                    > Atal if following on the end of a sentence would be found before
                    AN and IS
                    > here is a famous line from the descent of inanna
                    > inana an mu-un-sub ki mu-un-sub kur-ra ba-e-a-ed3
                    > Inana abandoned heaven, abandoned earth, and descended to the
                    underworld.
                    > as you can see the verbs are not all at the end of the sentence
                    > it depends on the placing of the genitatives ant the determinatives
                    > so you are talking bollox
                    >
                    > A.TAL.AN.IS
                    >
                    > how would you say it in english
                    > duh "
                    >
                    > Among other things I've said in my reply is that his word ATAL
                    (now A.TAL I see) is 2 words, one of which, 'tal', seems to mean jug.
                    >
                    > Doug
                    >
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