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Re: [ANE-2] Jewish individuals and ethnic style ...

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  • Peter T. Daniels
    ... From: Ever Wilson lars1950@msn.com I m not drawing conclusions. The Bible says that Nehemiah was the cupbearer to Artaxerxes for his entire rule and lived
    Message 1 of 17 , Aug 18, 2006
      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Ever Wilson lars1950@...



      I'm not drawing conclusions. The Bible says that Nehemiah was the cupbearer
      to Artaxerxes for his entire rule and lived down into the rule of Darius I.

      ********
      Yeah, and Parson Weems says that little Georgie Washington chopped down the cherry tree.

      We like to have nice stories about our famous leaders of the past.

      If Nehemiah was at Artie's elbow (or on his lap -- was that also your suggestion?) for 41 years, when did he have time to drop in on Jerusalem and supervise the rebuilding of the Temple, take a census, and everything else he was supposed to have done? (Aren't there Scriptural prohibitions on eunuchs being in Temple service?)
      ********

      Artaxerxes is shown with his cupbearer at Persepolis. The cupbearer is not
      a Mede and not a Persian. That is consistent with Nehemiah being a Jew.

      ********
      Right ... the world contained three kinds of people: Medes, Persians, and Jews.
      ********

      IF this is actually Nehemiah, and the theme at Persepolis is to represent
      the various ethnic groups, then this particular costume style was adopted by
      the Jews apparently. If this costume was similar and used by others
      closely related to the Jews,then that's fine too. It doesn't exclude
      Nehemiah. Besides, this could be very local and focussed at Persepolis,
      with the decision of this garb being used for the Jews, regardless of how
      popular it was with some other groups. But your point is well taken.

      Pierre Briant's "From Cyrus to Alexander. A History
      >of the Persian Empire" would be a good place to start before posting
      >co-rulerships of the Achaemenids, eunuch cup-bearing viziers and the
      >like.
      >Trudy Kawami

      I apologize. I forgot generally this co-rulership is not recognized. But
      (I'll have to hunt down the quote), William Albright commented on this and
      concluded the way the two kings were represented was consistent with a
      co-rulership. That is, the kings's heads were at the same level. They were
      the same enlarged size compared to the others, etc. In some depictions,
      Xerxes is holding onto the back of the throne of Darius, in others his hand
      it turned sidewise. The question might be was holding onto the throne
      symbolic of co-rulership or mere succession? So at least one archaeologist
      interpreted it that way. But you know how that goes.

      ********
      Eh? Presumably you refer to Albright as "one archeologist"? Since when are archeologists also specialists in art history?

      Albright certainly considered himself a jack-of-all-trades. Remember the other half of that line?

      Albright has been dead for almost forty years. If biblical fundamentalists can't find any other biblical scholar to appeal to, maybe they should stop trying to pretend to be biblical scholars.

      In 1973, when the Oriental Institute News & Notes newsletter for the lay members was invented, and assigned to me to edit, the very first article I was asked to prepare, for the very first issue, was an obituary/appreciation of the late W. F. Albright. (Unfortunately I never met him.) I started it, "William Foxwell Albright was the greatest biblical archeologist ...." The Director of the Oriental Institute changed it to "William Foxwell Albright was the dean of biblical archeologists ...."

      (There, Niels Peter -- is that what you were expecting?)
      --
      Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
    • Ever Wilson
      Hi Trudy, ... Oh, I apologize. I can see the problem. I presume what is common knowledge to all is really not. I ll get the quotes. The eunuch issue and
      Message 2 of 17 , Aug 18, 2006
        Hi Trudy,


        >From: "Trudy Kawami" <tkawami@...>
        >Reply-To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        >To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
        >Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Jewish individuals and ethnic style ...
        >Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:12:21 -0400
        >
        >Dear Mr. Wilson,
        >You may believe whatever you wish, but this is a scholarly list and so I
        >would like more fact and less supposition in your argument that there
        >was such a title/position as cup-bearing vizier (prime minister) in the
        >Achaemenid court, that the folded cloth held by the bearer of the
        >fly-whisk is a "cup towel," and that figures whose beards you cannot see
        >are eunuchs.

        Oh, I apologize. I can see the problem. I presume what is common knowledge
        to all is really not. I'll get the quotes. The eunuch issue and the
        cuptowel
        issue are discussed in "Persia and the Bible" by Edwin Yamauchi. I didn't
        come up with the idea that those covering their beards were eunuchs,
        someone else did, I believe William Albright talked about that among others,
        so I don't think I'll have problems getting you quotes.

        Here's a quick one I found on cupbearers, page 259: "Classical sources give
        us
        DETAILED descriptions of cupbearers at the Persian court. Xenophon's
        *Cryopaedia
        (1.3.9) describes one of his main duties as follows: "Now, it is a well
        known fact
        that the cupbearers, when they proffer the cup, draw off some of it with the
        ladle, pout it into their left hand, and swallow it down--so that if they
        should
        put poison in, they may not profit by it." That the cupbearer could have
        other
        responsibilities as well is indicated by Tobit 1:22: "Now Ahikar was
        cupbearer,
        keeper of the signet, and in charge of administration of the accounts, for
        Esarhaddon had appointed hi second to himself."

        Yamauchi goes on to say on the same page regarding Nehemiah: "Nehemiah would
        have been a man of great influence as one with the closest access tothe
        king, and
        one who could well determine who got to see the king (Xenophon, *Cryopaedia
        1.3.8-9).

        On the eunuch issue of Nehemiah,he notes (page 261) "MANY SCHOLARS have,
        therefore, assumed as a certain or as probable the thesis that Nehemiah was
        a eunuch.
        Those who have maintained this position include such influential and diverse
        scholars as
        William F. Albright, Loring W. Batten, John Bright, John M. Cook, Balmer H.
        Kelly,
        Jacob M. Myers, Albert T. Olmstead, and Samuel Schultz."

        So you see, it's kind of OUT THERE already, so I didn't think I needed to
        quote
        on it specifically. My apologies. So please note, I'm not just coming up
        with my
        own ideas on some of these topics.

        Now as a reference about the beard you asked about (page 263),"Beardless
        officials
        in artistic representations have ordinarily been interpreted as eunuchs.
        Those portrayed
        with flabby cheeks, such as the cupbearer of Ashhurnasirpal, may indeed have
        been eunuchs.
        But it would be incorrect to intepret all beardless servants or officials as
        eunuchs; some
        may have simply been youths. Moreover, there is no convincing iconographic
        evidence
        that Acamaemenian cupbearers were eunuchs. Perhaps the strongest
        extrabiblical
        evidence that Nehemiah may have been a eunuch cupbearer is the account of
        Ctesias,
        which notes that this was the case in his day. Ctesias was a Greek
        physician at the court of
        Artaxerxes II..." His conclusion was: "In conclusion, no firm evidence
        exists that Nehemiah
        was a eunuch. Dogmatic statements that he was are based on a web of
        arguments that
        in many cases are untenable and in other cases are less than convincing."

        Now I differ with this view, but I quoted it for you to show you that it's a
        "common"
        and much debated topic, apparently one you had never heard of.

        But I believe I wrote Yamauchi regarding this statement because apparently
        he was not
        aware that many who considered Nehemiah a eunuch do so based upon a Biblical
        reference. Basically his enemies were sheming against him to have him stop
        the work on the walls, he was in Jerusalem and someone suggested that he
        hide in the temple:

        Neh. 6:10 "...Let us meet by appointment at the house of the true God,
        within the temple; for they are coming in to killyou, even by night they are
        coming in to kill you." But I said, "Should a man like me run away? And
        whois there LIKE ME that could enter into the temple and live? I shall not
        enter!"

        Some have interpreted this, as I do, to relate to his being castrated and
        therefore unfit to enter the temple. (De 23:1 "No man castrated by crushing
        his testicles or having his male member cut off may come into the
        congregation of YHWH.")

        Now as far as covering the beard, just saw at Persepolis, indeed, a
        beardless man who was uncovered. So simply being beardless wasn't
        necessarily the basis of covering the chin and lower face, it may have been
        a social custom indicating a eunuch.

        At any rate, this seems quite the background detail when you factor in
        Jewish folklore for Nehemiah. As I said, I was doing research at the
        Holocaust Musuem in Los Angeles and they have a small library there and a
        copy of the folkloric version of "Nehemias" where he basically is depicted
        as being in love with the king, sitting on his lap and "batting his eyes" at
        the king when he asked to leave for Jerusalem. There was obviously no
        sexual connection but it was quite bluntly representing Nehemiah in an
        effeminate position in relation to the king.

        So you've not going to get away from disproving Nehemiah wasn't a eunuch.
        If covering the lower face was a social custom so that eunuchs would be
        identified as such, perhaps rather than being mistaken for a woman, etc.
        Then the cupbearer of Artaxerxes, if he was the cupbearer indicated by his
        cuptowel, then that would not conflict with this actually being a depiction
        of him.

        But if I may, and please don't take this personally. But... you noted this
        is an academic discussion group. You expect references, etc. But what I
        provided you were the actual pictures of the reliefs for you to see for
        yourself. A pictures says a thousand words... so to me, I was giving you
        the DIRECT reference to see for yourself. I wanted to establish
        "Israelite" presence at Persepolis, potentially.

        >I have suggested the Briant book as a good place to start.

        I will check out that book! Thanks!

        >I don't see how this dialogue can go any farther until you deal with the
        >primary documentation.
        >Trudy Kawami

        Right.

        >PS William Foxwell Albright (1881-1971) was a remarkable individual but
        >no expert on Achaemenid history.
        >
        Welll, that's a very big group, isn't it? Thanks for the reference, and
        have a pleasant
        day.

        L. Wilson

        _________________________________________________________________
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      • Judith Lerner
        In addition to Briant s book, read the entry on Eunuchs in the Achaemenid period by Muhammad Dandamayev in the Encyclopaedia Iranica, vol. 9, fasc. 1
        Message 3 of 17 , Aug 19, 2006
          In addition to Briant's book, read the entry on Eunuchs in the Achaemenid
          period by Muhammad Dandamayev in the Encyclopaedia Iranica, vol. 9, fasc.
          1 accessible on line: http://www.iranica.com/articlenavigation/index.html

          A pertinent paragraph is:
          Though all the eunuchs known to us except Hermotimus had Iranian names, we
          cannot be sure of their ethnic background since their names could have been
          changed. Schmidt believes that the beardless Persians and Medes depicted on
          the Persepolis stairway reliefs were eunuchs (p. 225). A number of Apada@na
          (q.v.) and Treasury reliefs in Persepolis depict the king sitting with a man
          behind him in a bashlyk head-dress and holding a large towel. Since this
          attendant is beardless, he was probably a eunuch—the royal cupbearer who
          represented the office of lord chamberlain (Schmidt, pp. 133, 165, 169;
          Olmstead, pp. 217-18). The king's cupbearer Nehemiah, who in 445 B.C.E.
          became governor of Judah, may have been a eunuch (Olmstead, p. 314; Cook, p.
          136; Heltzer, p. 127, rejects this view).

          Note that this is no reason to identify the cup bearer at Persepolis as
          Nehemiah, and I urge you to read the entire entry. (Also, the bashlyk does
          not at all resemble the cap worn by Jehu. As Trudy has pointed out, the
          bashlyk is a type of headgear worn by steppe people and thus was part of the
          horse-riding gear of Iranians, Persians and Medes included.)

          And, while you are educating yourself about eunuchs in the Achaemenid court,
          you might consider A. K. Grayson, "Eunuchs in Power. Their Role in the
          Assyrian Bureaucracy," Vom Alten Orient zum Alten Testament: Festschrift für
          Wolfram Freiherrn von Soden zum 85. Geburtstag am 19. Juni 1993, eds.
          Manfried Dietrich and Oswald Loretz (Kevelaer and Neukirchen-Vluyn: 1995),
          which reviews the institution in the ANE and elsewhere (e.g., China,
          Byzantium and the Ottoman court).

          Judith Lerner
          ________________________


          -----Original Message-----
          From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ever
          Wilson
          Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 4:22 PM
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Jewish individuals and ethnic style ...


          >From: "Trudy Kawami" <tkawami@arthurmsack
          <mailto:tkawami%40arthurmsacklerfdn.org> lerfdn.org>
          >Reply-To: ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com
          >To: <ANE-2@yahoogroups. <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> com>
          >Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Jewish individuals and ethnic style ...
          >Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 14:55:59 -0400
          >
          >Unfortunately there is no evidence at all that the attendant shown
          >behind the throne on the reliefs from Persepolis is named Nehemiah.

          <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714&grpId=17235518&grpspId=1600841467&msgI
          d=2297&stime=1155934239&nc1=3911045&nc2=3848478&nc3=3858807>




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • siaxares
          Hello Trudy, thanks for the comments, but.. ... reliefs ... How do _you_ know they are from all over Central Asia ? Do you have a specific reference for that?
          Message 4 of 17 , Aug 20, 2006
            Hello Trudy, thanks for the comments, but..

            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Trudy Kawami" <tkawami@...> wrote:
            >It
            > appears on the heads of numerous "ethnic" peoples on the Apadana
            reliefs
            > from all over Central Asia.

            How do _you_ know they are from "all over Central Asia"? Do you have
            a specific reference for that? Furthermore, the Persian Empire
            covered "central Asia" and there are numerous distinctive ethnic
            groups represented. So the entire diversity of ethnic groups
            depicted could be generally be considered to be from "all over
            Central Asia." The sub-theme here is an emphasis on ethnic
            diversity, so why would this particular "style" not likewise
            represent specificity? at least to a certain region even if within
            that region you had some sub-diversity?


            > It is NOT the same design/style as Jehu's
            > headgear.

            In my defense, in comparison with the very distinctive types of
            headgear seen at Persepolis, that is, one of extensive variety to
            distinguish the varying sub-groups, if one were to compare these
            styles in general and match up the "floppy point" style versus say
            the Persian or Mede, I would say they were "similar." That is, if I
            were just to compare this "floppy point" style with the Mede and the
            Persian, I might describe the Mede as a distinctive, clearly rigid
            rounded bulb. I describe the Persian as also a rigid, fluted, crown-
            like headpiece with ridges. I describe the high official with the
            towel in his hand as GENERALLY soft, clothlike or (soft leather),
            ending in a floppy point. Now if I were describe Jehu's headwear,
            generally, I'd say, it was soft cloth or leather ending in a floppy
            point. So I don't think you say it is NOT the same "design/style" if
            both are of soft material ending in a floppy point, particularly
            compared to that of the Mede or Persian headpieces. I can see they
            are not EXACTLY the same, but both have a "floppy point". So if
            that's the general style for a certain region, i.e. Middle Eastern?
            then one would think the official at Persepolis could be from the
            same region as Jehu. I don't think that's an unreasonable
            presumption, if in fact, it's not apparent. But as they
            say, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and I suppose so are
            clothing styles.


            >Please educate yourself about the culture you refer to before
            > drawing conclusions.

            Point well taken. I don't know if at Persepolis this loosely similar
            style of a "floppy point" type style to Jehu, a known Israelite,
            could be presumed automatically to represent specifically an
            Israelite. But, since you advised me do "educate" myself about the
            culture, I would presume the specific ethnic association is known to
            someone, particularly you. So why don't you just tell us what ethnic
            group this style is from? What nation at Persepolis does it suppose
            to represent? You must know already if you're sending me out to
            research this right? So what is the ongoing opinion out there for
            this particular ethnic group?

            Pierre Briant's "From Cyrus to Alexander. A History
            > of the Persian Empire" would be a good place to start before posting
            > co-rulerships of the Achaemenids, eunuch cup-bearing viziers and the
            > like.
            > Trudy Kawami
            >
            Thanks for this reference, I will look it up. But apparently you've
            read this. Do you have a specific page number that specifically
            talks about this individual behind Xerxes? Besides that, what is
            Pierre Briant's qualifications over any other archaeologist who have
            made comments on this, such as Olmstead and Albright? That's where
            I've first because acquainted with this before, so it is not an
            entirely subjective, uneducated presumption.

            Finally, in this regard specifically for PERSIA, I found this
            reference to the use of eunuchs as noted by Xenophon in
            his "Cyropaedia"

            58. This done, he set himself to regulate the matters that remained.
            Thinking over his position, and the attempt he was making to govern
            an enormous multitude, preparing at the same time to take up his
            abode in the greatest of all famous cities, but yet a city that was
            as hostile to him as a city could be, pondering all this, he
            concluded that he could not dispense with a bodyguard for himself.
            59. He knew well enough that a man can most easily be assassinated at
            his meals, or in his bath, or in bed, or when he is asleep, and he
            asked himself who were most to be trusted of those he had about him.
            A man, he believed, can never be loyal or trustworthy who is likely
            to love another more than the one who requires his guardianship. 60.
            He knew that men with children, or wives, or favourites in whom they
            delight, must needs love them most: while eunuchs, who are deprived
            of all such dear ones, would surely make most account of him who
            could enrich them, or help them if they were injured, or crown them
            with honour. And in the conferring of such benefits he was disposed
            to think he could outbid the world. 61. Moreover the eunuch, being
            degraded in the eyes of other men, is driven to seek the assistance
            of some lord and master. Without some such protection there is not a
            man in the world who would not think he had the right to over-reach a
            eunuch: while there was every reason to suppose that the eunuch would
            be the most faithful of all servants. 62. As for the customary notion
            that the eunuch must be weak and cowardly, Cyrus was not disposed to
            accept it. He studied the indications to be observed in animals -- a
            vicious horse, if gelded, will cease to bite and be restive, but he
            will charge as gallantly as ever; a bull that has been cut will
            become less fierce and less intractable, but he will not lose his
            strength, he will be as good as ever for work; castration may cure a
            dog of deserting his master, but it will not ruin him as a watch-dog
            or spoil him for the chase. 63. So, too, with men; when deprived of
            this desire, they become gentler, no doubt, but not less quick to
            obey, not less daring as horsemen, not less skilful with the javelin,
            not less eager for honour. 64. In war and in the chase they show
            plainly enough that the fire of ambition is still burning in their
            hearts. And they have stood the last test of loyalty in the downfall
            of their masters. None have shown more faithfulness than eunuchs when
            ruin has fallen on their lords. 65. In bodily strength, perhaps, the
            eunuchs seem to be lacking, but steel is a great leveller, and makes
            the weak man equal to the strong in war. Holding this in mind, Cyrus
            resolved that his personal attendants, from his doorkeepers onward,
            should be eunuchs one and all."

            And in that specific regard, I did reflect on those with the covered
            chins who were handling the food. These would be those closest to
            the king's person. And though they have different headwear, their
            chins are covered. Perhaps the idea of the covered chin was the
            standard identification for a eunuch. What do you think? Take
            particular note of these in food service below, already noted.

            Thanks.


            >
            > More eunuchs? of other ethnic backgrounds in food service including
            one
            > Jewish eunuch? serving holding a beverage, perhaps the
            eunuch/winekeeper.
            >
            >
            http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/PD/3C12_72dpi.ht
            ml>

            Larry Wilson
          • Niels Peter Lemche
            Dear Larry, Why don t you use a link to Herodotus. I m sure that his text will be found somewhere on the internet. The Jehu -- Persian period comparison: You
            Message 5 of 17 , Aug 20, 2006
              Dear Larry,

              Why don't you use a link to Herodotus. I'm sure that his text will be
              found somewhere on the internet.

              The Jehu -- Persian period comparison: You still have a gab of at least
              400 years.

              Briant, pp. 518-525

              Briant professor at College de France, specialist in this period.
              Absolutely a thre or four star when it comes to the Achaemenid empire

              Niels Peter Lemche
            • Peter T. Daniels
              Trudy gave you the reference any number of times to the fundamental reference work for anyone interested in the Achaemenid Empire. READ THE FRIGGIN BOOK.
              Message 6 of 17 , Aug 20, 2006
                Trudy gave you the reference any number of times to the fundamental reference work for anyone interested in the Achaemenid Empire.

                READ THE FRIGGIN' BOOK.

                Guess what -- the representations of diverse peoples in the Persepolis reliefs have CAPTIONS.

                Or were you not aware that all those little triangle thingies are Persian (and Elamite and Akkadian) WRITING?
                --
                Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...

                PS I translated Briant's book, but I don't get a penny on the sales of copies. It's even out in paperback now -- under US$50 for some 1200 pages, quite a bargain.

                ----- Original Message ----
                From: siaxares <lars1950@...>
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 1:11:16 PM
                Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Jewish individuals and ethnic style ...


                Hello Trudy, thanks for the comments, but..

                --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Trudy Kawami" <tkawami@...> wrote:
                >It
                > appears on the heads of numerous "ethnic" peoples on the Apadana
                reliefs
                > from all over Central Asia.

                How do _you_ know they are from "all over Central Asia"? Do you have
                a specific reference for that?

                > Pierre Briant's "From Cyrus to Alexander. A History
                > of the Persian Empire" would be a good place to start before posting
                > co-rulerships of the Achaemenids, eunuch cup-bearing viziers and the
                > like.
                > Trudy Kawami
              • Ever Wilson
                Hello Peter... ... will do. Of course, since I m primarily interested in this ONE individual, it would have been nice if Trudy would hve simply told me who
                Message 7 of 17 , Aug 20, 2006
                  Hello Peter...


                  >From: "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@...>
                  >Reply-To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: Jewish individuals and ethnic style ...
                  >Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 10:53:27 -0700 (PDT)
                  >
                  >Trudy gave you the reference any number of times to the fundamental
                  >reference work for anyone interested in the Achaemenid Empire.
                  >
                  >READ THE FRIGGIN' BOOK.
                  >
                  :> I just looked it up and will read it today at the local library. So
                  will do. Of course, since I'm primarily interested in this ONE individual,
                  it would have been nice if Trudy would hve simply told me who this invidual
                  was or given me a specific page reference. :>

                  >Guess what -- the representations of diverse peoples in the Persepolis
                  >reliefs have CAPTIONS.
                  >

                  That's right. I know that. So if this particular style had a CAPTION, then
                  where is it? Is it clear specifically what this is? Is it associated with
                  one of the "captioned" identifications that you know of?

                  > Or were you not aware that all those little triangle thingies are Persian
                  >(and Elamite and Akkadian) WRITING?
                  >--
                  Yes I was. So the question now is, as noted, is this particular style
                  associated with any caption and if so, which one? Apparently you don't know
                  off hand so I'll have to look at the bas-reliefs again and if I find it,
                  that should be cleared up. I'll check specifically again, but my general
                  recollection is that all the ethnic types don't have a major "caption"
                  identifying them though many do. If I find something specific, I will share
                  the reference with the group so WE ALL will be updated.

                  >Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
                  >
                  >PS I translated Briant's book, but I don't get a penny on the sales of
                  >copies. It's even out in paperback now -- under US$50 for some 1200 pages,
                  >quite a bargain.
                  >
                  I'll review the book today and share any pertinent commentary, with page
                  numbers.

                  Thanks again, Peter.

                  Larry Wilson

                  >

                  _________________________________________________________________
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                • Ever Wilson
                  ... Thanks Niels. Fortunately, there is a copy at the local university which I will check out today. Much appreciated. While there I ll try to see if this
                  Message 8 of 17 , Aug 20, 2006
                    >From: "Niels Peter Lemche" <np13867@...>
                    >Reply-To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Jewish individuals and ethnic style ...
                    >Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2006 17:42:35 -0000
                    >
                    >Dear Larry,
                    >
                    >Why don't you use a link to Herodotus. I'm sure that his text will be
                    >found somewhere on the internet.
                    >
                    >The Jehu -- Persian period comparison: You still have a gab of at least
                    >400 years.
                    >
                    >Briant, pp. 518-525
                    >
                    >Briant professor at College de France, specialist in this period.
                    >Absolutely a thre or four star when it comes to the Achaemenid empire
                    >
                    >Niels Peter Lemche
                    >
                    >
                    Thanks Niels. Fortunately, there is a copy at the local university which I
                    will check out today.

                    Much appreciated. While there I'll try to see if this style is assigned to
                    any "captioned" identifications.

                    But this "lead" looks even more promising:


                    [Edwin} Yamauchi has noted that in the 30,000 or so Persepolis Fortification
                    texts (509-494
                    B.C.) found in 1933 and 1934 in the north-east fortification walls of the
                    city, and the
                    750 or so Persepolis Treasury tablets (492-458 B.C.) were texts with the
                    name
                    Marduka or Marduku (�Mordecai, The Persepolis Tablets,...�, p. 273).
                    Sixty-six of
                    the latter group date to the reign of Xerxes mentioned in Esther. These
                    texts were
                    written by Elamite scribes and accountants from Susa."

                    and...

                    Mordecai has been suggested (so Josephus �Antiquities, 11:6:13: also see
                    Esther 9:20), or perhaps a younger contemporary around 425(?), since
                    Mordecai is cast as the hero of the story and is praised in 10:3. �A
                    cuneiform tablet from Borsippa near Babylon identifies one Marduka as a
                    civil servant or minister at the court of Susa in the early years of Xerxes:
                    some have identified this individual as Mordecai� (Dillard&Longman, �Intro
                    to the OT, p.192)

                    and...

                    We have already seen in this article that the Persian customs and history of
                    the account of Esther also ring true. Speaking of Esther, The Interpreter's
                    Dictionary of the Bible notes: "The author employs the customary formula for
                    the beginning of an historical account . . . (and) his references to Persian
                    customs show considerable accurate knowledge . . . More recently cuneiform
                    evidence has been found to show that there was a Persian official named
                    Marduka (Mordecai) in Susa (Shushan) at the end of the reign of Darius I or
                    the beginning of the reign of Xerxes" (1962, Vol. II, p. 151, "Esther, Book
                    of").


                    The above becomes interesting because of a potential for historically
                    linking "Marduka" as the Babylonian name for Nehemiah. I'll have to check
                    the references closely, but at this poiint I'm quite pleased to have
                    discovered the prominence of an official named "Marduka" at Persepolis in so
                    many texts. There are some Jewish folklore elements involved not that
                    appropriate "archaeologically" but this is EXTREMELY encouraging; that is,
                    that an extremely prominent Persian official named "Marduka" appears in
                    these texts and the most prominent of all officials at Persepolis is this
                    non-Persian/non-Mede cupbearer always immediately behind the king whenever
                    in a group, or sometimes alone with the king. Hopefully, I'll get some
                    more leads from Briant today!

                    Have a nice day.

                    Larry Wilson

                    _________________________________________________________________
                    Don�t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
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                  • George F Somsel
                    Niels Peter Lemche wrote: Dear Larry, Why don t you use a link to Herodotus. I m sure that his text will be found somewhere on the
                    Message 9 of 17 , Aug 20, 2006
                      Niels Peter Lemche <np13867@...> wrote:
                      Dear Larry,

                      Why don't you use a link to Herodotus. I'm sure that his text will be
                      found somewhere on the internet.

                      The Jehu -- Persian period comparison: You still have a gab of at least
                      400 years.

                      Briant, pp. 518-525

                      Briant professor at College de France, specialist in this period.
                      Absolutely a thre or four star when it comes to the Achaemenid empire

                      Niels Peter Lemche


                      Link to Herodotus (English) at Perseus

                      http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126

                      ____________




                      george
                      gfsomsel
                      _________
                    • siaxares
                      ... Thanks, George and Niels.. The Xenophon reference to the position of eunuchs in Persia was a more than sufficient reference. Also in comparing the various
                      Message 10 of 17 , Aug 20, 2006
                        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Niels Peter Lemche np13867@... wrote:
                        > Dear Larry,
                        >
                        > Why don't you use a link to Herodotus. I'm sure that his text will be
                        > found somewhere on the internet.
                        >
                        Thanks, George and Niels..

                        The Xenophon reference to the position of eunuchs in Persia was a more
                        than sufficient reference.

                        Also in comparing the various dress styles, the chin covering most
                        likely would indicate a eunuch since some with the same headwear
                        covering have the chin covering and some don't. Furthermore, it
                        appears that some with the chin covering did have facial hair, so all
                        were not beardless, suggesting that perhaps some eunuchs did have some
                        facial hair as well.

                        As far as the specific style of wear of the Persian official though, I
                        did find his "delegation" at the Apadama. Per the Oriental Museum,
                        though, they are not sure and note it as "Arian ?" (with a question mark
                        here:

                        http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/APA/2A3_72dpi.html
                        <http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/APA/2A3_72dpi.htm\
                        l>

                        The others are specifically named. As was pointed out, I'm aware of
                        some bas-relief from Persepolis (that I don't see on display here) that
                        did show Darius above all the various nations under the Persian empire
                        and they were identified. It may be from these "captions" that the
                        other "delegates" are specifically named. The question mark behind this
                        one indicates either they were not represented at all or perhaps the
                        caption was damaged. But also in that regard when the issue of Jews
                        being represented upon those supporting nations under Darius they were
                        not specifically mentioned, one generalization being that they were a
                        sub-division of a larger district. I point that out since that if the
                        Jewish group were specifically captioned it might confirm for sure this
                        was or was not their ethnic designation. So at this point, this ethnic
                        sub-group present here wasn't represented as a major nation that was
                        captioned.

                        Finally this quote from Edwin M. Yamauchi's "Persia and the Bible"
                        regarding that official (p. 361) notes:

                        "Standing behind the seated king and the standing prince is an attendant
                        with a folded towel. Schmidt suggested this servant may be the lord
                        chamberlain or the royal cupbearer. Furthermore, he believed this
                        individual was beardless, and therefore a eunuch. A. Shapur Shahbazi
                        believed this invidual was a eunuch, and suggests he was the royal
                        chamberlain..."

                        Here is the bas-relief at Persepolis of a "Sargatian?" delegation which
                        shows a distinct headwear both with and without the chin covering,
                        suggesting the chin covering was the social distinction for a eunuch.

                        http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/APA/1D12_72dpi.htm\
                        l
                        <http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/APA/1D12_72dpi.ht\
                        ml>

                        Thanks, again, everyone for the references.

                        Larry Wilson







                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • George F Somsel
                        ... Thanks, George and Niels.. The Xenophon reference to the position of eunuchs in Persia was a more than sufficient reference. Also in comparing the various
                        Message 11 of 17 , Aug 20, 2006
                          siaxares <lars1950@...> wrote:
                          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Niels Peter Lemche np13867@... wrote:
                          > Dear Larry,
                          >
                          > Why don't you use a link to Herodotus. I'm sure that his text will be
                          > found somewhere on the internet.
                          >
                          Thanks, George and Niels..

                          The Xenophon reference to the position of eunuchs in Persia was a more
                          than sufficient reference.

                          Also in comparing the various dress styles, the chin covering most
                          likely would indicate a eunuch since some with the same headwear
                          covering have the chin covering and some don't. Furthermore, it
                          appears that some with the chin covering did have facial hair, so all
                          were not beardless, suggesting that perhaps some eunuchs did have some
                          facial hair as well.

                          <SNIP>

                          Larry Wilson



                          Or might it possibly indicate that covering the chin is not a reliable indication of who is a eunuch?


                          george
                          gfsomsel
                        • David Hall
                          I added some material to my web site about the question as to whether or not Mt. Sinai may have been a volcano. http://home.att.net/~qata/ David Q. Hall
                          Message 12 of 17 , Aug 20, 2006
                            I added some material to my web site about the question as to whether or not Mt. Sinai may have been a volcano.

                            http://home.att.net/~qata/

                            David Q. Hall
                            dqhall@...













                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Lisbeth S. Fried
                            Dear Larry, The presence of a Babylonian official named Marduka in the Persepolis tablets is well known. But how does Marduka become the Babylonian name for
                            Message 13 of 17 , Aug 20, 2006
                              Dear Larry,
                              The presence of a Babylonian official named Marduka in the Persepolis
                              tablets is well known. But how does Marduka become the Babylonian name for
                              Nehemiah?

                              Btw, as far as I know, no one has succeeded in finding a Jew among any of
                              the foreigners visiting the Persian kings or among any working for them,
                              although these images have been extensively studied by art historians.
                              Perhaps this is due to so few definitive pictures of Jews. There is the one
                              you point out of Jehu (9th C bce). There are also the drawings of the
                              conquest of Lachish (701 bce). Both of these date from the Iron Age, and not
                              from the Persian period (5th C BCE). People have looked for the Jew
                              primarily on the images on the Apadana however, and I seem to recall some
                              discussion around one of them in the lower left corner ground level that he
                              might be a Jew, but I don't recall for sure. Perhaps Trudy or Judith Lerner
                              will know.
                              It just occurred to me to ask why we should expect a Persian governor to
                              wear Jewish dress (whatever that is) rather than Persian. Satrapal and
                              gubernatorial courts mimicked the royal one. I suspect that satraps and
                              governors wore Persian dress. I don't know how one would investigate this,
                              however. Perhaps the art historians among us would know.
                              Best,
                              Liz Fried

                              >
                              > The above becomes interesting because of a potential for historically
                              > linking "Marduka" as the Babylonian name for Nehemiah. I'll have to
                              check
                              > the references closely, but at this poiint I'm quite pleased to have
                              > discovered the prominence of an official named "Marduka" at Persepolis in
                              so
                              > many texts. There are some Jewish folklore elements involved not that
                              > appropriate "archaeologically" but this is EXTREMELY encouraging; that is,
                              > that an extremely prominent Persian official named "Marduka" appears in
                              > these texts and the most prominent of all officials at Persepolis is this
                              > non-Persian/non-Mede cupbearer always immediately behind the king whenever
                              > in a group, or sometimes alone with the king. Hopefully, I'll get some
                              > more leads from Briant today!
                              >
                              > Have a nice day.
                              >
                              > Larry Wilson
                              >
                              > _______________________________________
                              > __________________________
                              > Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
                              > http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • siaxares
                              ... Persepolis ... name for ... Marduka is linked to Modecai in the Book of Esther in Jewish texts, but extra-Biblical Jewish texts linkes the story of
                              Message 14 of 17 , Aug 23, 2006
                                --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "Lisbeth S. Fried" <lizfried@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Dear Larry,
                                > The presence of a Babylonian official named Marduka in the
                                Persepolis
                                > tablets is well known. But how does Marduka become the Babylonian
                                name for
                                > Nehemiah?
                                >
                                "Marduka is linked to Modecai" in the Book of Esther in Jewish texts,
                                but extra-Biblical Jewish texts linkes the story of Esther with the
                                cryptic history of Nehemiah (i.e. similarities in the story, both
                                hear bad news from home and place wine before the king before
                                requesting his help, etc. Eventually each inspire the Jews to take
                                up arms to defend themselves from their enemies.)

                                Regarding the identity of the persons following behind Xexers at
                                Perspolis, I found this quote by Olmstead in "History of the Persian
                                Empire" page 217 "Behind Xerxes stands the CUPBEARER, who in later
                                Achaemenid times was to exercise even more influence than the
                                commander-in-chief [who followed the cupbearer beyind Xerxes.}"

                                Page 218 notes the identity of the person behind the cupbearer: "From
                                the tomb relief of Darius, carved on the the rock about the same date
                                [as Persepolis reliefs], we learn that the officer who follows is
                                Aspachana (Aspathines), holder of the king's battle-ax and bow case."

                                Larry Wilson
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