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Re: Jewish individuals and ethnic style seen in ancient mid-Eastern Art

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  • Niels Peter Lemche
    I am sorry to say that this simply does not work. You simply have to think about what you are doing. 1. Your obsession with co-regencies. Happily I recently
    Message 1 of 5 , Aug 18, 2006
      I am sorry to say that this simply does not work. You simply have to
      think about what you are doing.

      1. Your obsession with co-regencies. Happily I recently found reason
      to buy Briant's splendid From Cyrus to Alexander in Peter Daniels'
      splendid translation. He has an extensive discussion about the
      succession of Dareios 1. Where did you get your idea from. Would be
      nice if you had any evidence.

      2. The identification of Jehu is OK, but the identification of
      Nehemiah is somply nonsense. You base the identification on a cap.
      Well, with this kind of logic the mythical heroine of the French
      revolution would also be a Jew as she wears the same cap. It is
      nonsense from one end to the other. After all, Jehu lived in the 9th
      century BCE, Nehemiah in your chronology in the 5th century BCE. 400
      years, that is quite a long time. 400 years ago, e.g., there was no
      USA, Harvard had still to be founded, the 30 years war to be faught,
      etc,etc, and dress style changed I do not know for how many times.

      3. Hos do you know that Jehus is a Jew. In the inscription following
      the relief, he is presented as from the house of Omri. Jewish
      means "from Juda", and as far as I know not even the Bible claims
      that Jehu comes from this part of Palestine. What is a Jew? I do not
      read in my Bible that caps have anything to do with that.

      I allowed the mail to be posted, not because you wrote something
      important, but it shows a certain lay person's lack of methodology.
      It might be a nasty thing to do, to expose one's co-humans in this
      way, but I have to ask you to present evidence. Here is none, and the
      basic assumptions are simply, sorry, nonsense.

      Niels Peter Lemche

      PS: I had to do this before Peter gets at it. He will be much nastier
      than I. So, please start trying to be logic, and present a decent
      argument.


      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "siaxares" <lars1950@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      > JEWISH ETHNIC CLOTHING STYLE IN ANCIENT ARCHAEOLOGICAL ART
      >
      >
      >
      > The only two specific Jewish personages whose images were captured
      in
      > ancient bas-reliefs were King Jehu paying tribute to Shalmaneser
      III and
      > Nehemiah who served as cupbearer and prime minister of Persia
      during the
      > reign of Artaxerxes and during co-rulership of Darius and Xerxes. I
      > found it interesting that the Jewish headwear for King Jehu was
      similar
      > to that used to identify Jews ethnically at Persepolis, where the
      theme
      > of many different nations serving under the king in the vast Persian
      > Empire was artistically demonstrated.
      >
      >
      >
      > The ethnic headwear associated with the Jews seemed to be
      consistently a
      > "floppy cap" look. We can compare this look via Jehu at
      > Persepolis because of the prominence of Nehemiah in the court of
      both
      > Artaxerxes and during the co-rule of Darius and Xerxes where he
      first
      > appears as Cupbearer. The Cupbearer's "badge of office" was
      > the cup towel held in the hand. It is quite clear that Nehemiah
      was
      > extremely favored by Artaxerxes who depicted Nehemiah with him
      alone in
      > some of the reliefs allowing us to confirm positively that Nehemiah
      was
      > both a eunuch and the prime minister of Persia during the reign of
      > Artaxerxes. Additionally, when shown with other officials, each
      > wearing their own ethnic headwear, Nehemiah, the Cupbearer/Prime
      > Minister is clearly the highest-ranking court official as the
      Cupbearer.
      >
      >
      >
      > Of historical note below, it can't be absolutely determined if
      > Nehemiah was always the chief cupbearer during the reign of Darius
      I and
      > co-ruler Xerxes. That's because as noted below at the palace of
      > Darius, which was the first building completed at Persepolis (after
      two
      > years) Darius is seen with a different Cupbearer who was a non-
      eunuch
      > and a Persian. The eunuchs covered their beardless chins and were
      > highly trusted officials during the Persian monarchy. However,
      since
      > there was a co-rulership with Xerxes, it's possible that each king
      > had their own personal Cupbearer. So whether the Cupbearer seen
      with
      > Darius alone was the original Cupbearer/prime minister of Persia
      when
      > Darius first built at Persepolis who then died and was replaced by
      > Nehemiah, or whether Nehemiah was already the prime
      minister/Cupbearer
      > can't be determined since the actual rank in court can't be
      > determined when the personal attendant is shown with the king
      alone.
      > But whenever the entire court is depicted, Nehemiah is always first
      > behind the king(s), whether with Artaxerxes and his court alone or
      > during the co-rulership with Xerxes and Darius.
      >
      >
      >
      > It also appears that Jewish eunuchs were highly trusted
      particularly in
      > food service where we find them wearing the same ethnic wear as
      > identified with Nehemiah.
      >
      >
      >
      > Per the Bible, Nehemiah served under Artaxerxes throughout his
      entire
      > 41-year rule, living down into the time of Darius II and was highly
      > favored by him. In fact, per Jewish extra-Biblical folkloric tales
      of
      > Nehemiah, there was kind of a presumed "romance" between
      > Nehemiah and Artaxerxes. I was doing some research at the Holocaust
      > Museum in West Los Angeles that has a tiny Jewish library and read a
      > rare extra-Biblical version of "Nehemias" that described him as
      > sitting on Artaxerxes' lap and "batting his eyes at the
      > king" when he asked the king to be released to go help his people!
      > I'll have to find the precise reference, but I believe Herodotus
      > commented briefly to the effect that eunuchs were considered to be
      > extremely loyal to their masters because they substituted romantic
      love
      > with the love of their king. Even so, whether with Darius and
      Xerxes or
      > with Artaxerxes alone or in a group, he is clearly the most honored
      and
      > highest-ranking official during this period. Of trivial note,
      Nehemiah
      > would become the third person in Jewish history who rose to an
      extremely
      > high court position among those they served, the other two being
      Joseph
      > under king Apophis (per Manetho) during the Hyksos Period, and of
      course
      > Daniel during the Neo-Babylonian Period.
      >
      > Enough talk. Now the "pictures" of ancient Jews from the Bible
      > surviving in ancient art!
      >
      >
      > King Jehu wearing floppy pointed cap bowing to King Shalmaneser III.
      >
      > http://www.bible-history.com/archaeology/assyria/obelisk-jehu-close-
      up.h\
      > tml
      > <http://www.bible-history.com/archaeology/assyria/obelisk-jehu-
      close-up.\
      > html>
      >
      >
      > Nehemiah as cupbearer, alone with Artaxerxes at Persepolis.
      >
      >
      http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/TH/2F9_72dpi.htm
      l
      >
      <http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/TH/2F9_72dpi.ht
      ml\
      >
      >
      > Nehemiah as highest ranked official behind king Artaxerxes.
      >
      >
      http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/TH/2E9_72dpi.htm
      l
      >
      <http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/TH/2E9_72dpi.ht
      ml\
      > >
      >
      > Nehemiah as highest official behind Artaxeres with others showing
      > distinct ethnic headwear.
      >
      > Http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/TH/2F3_4.html
      >
      <http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/TH/2F3_4.html>
      >
      > Nehemiah as prime minister/cupbearer during co-rule of Xerxes and
      Darius
      > I.
      >
      >
      http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/TRE/3B10_4.html
      >
      <http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/TRE/3B10_4.html
      >
      >
      > Original? Cupbearer at Palace of Darius, a Persian and non-eunuch.
      > Possibly simply the personal cupbearer to Darius while Nehemiah was
      > considered the prime minister and perhaps personal cupbearer to
      Xerxes
      > before becoming the personal Cupbearer during the reign of
      Artaxerxes.
      >
      >
      http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/PD/3E6_72dpi.htm
      l
      >
      <http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/PD/3E6_72dpi.ht
      ml\
      > >
      >
      > OTHER JEWS AT PERSEPOLIS:
      >
      > Of note, Jews were not named at Persepolis as a distinctly large and
      > distinct country but are still quite present. The presumption is
      that
      > they were a smaller sub-culture at the time, the majority of the
      Jewish
      > nation at the time remaining at Babylon.
      >
      > More Jewish eunuchs trusted with food service, Palace of Darius.
      >
      >
      http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/PD/3D3_72dpi.htm
      l
      >
      <http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/PD/3D3_72dpi.ht
      ml\
      > >
      >
      > More eunuchs of other ethnic backgrounds in food service including
      one
      > Jewish eunuch serving holding a beverage, perhaps the
      eunuch/winekeeper.
      >
      >
      http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/PD/3C12_72dpi.ht
      ml
      >
      <http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/PD/3C12_72dpi.h
      tm\
      > l>
      >
      >
      > Larry Wilson
      >
    • Peter T. Daniels
      No, I usually don t complain about things I know absolutely nothing about ... inkwells I know something about (thanks, Liz!) (Note that I _didn t_ post my
      Message 2 of 5 , Aug 18, 2006
        No, I usually don't complain about things I know absolutely nothing about ... inkwells I know something about (thanks, Liz!)

        (Note that I _didn't_ post my impressions of the Liverani volume, and when an RBL review appeared a few weeks later, it covered deficiencies it would never have occurred to me to be aware of.)
        --
        Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...


        ----- Original Message ----
        From: Niels Peter Lemche <np13867@...>
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 1:28:56 PM
        Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Jewish individuals and ethnic style seen in ancient mid-Eastern Art


        PS: I had to do this before Peter gets at it. He will be much nastier
        than I. So, please start trying to be logic, and present a decent
        argument.
      • paulina albenda
        Re: Black Obelisk, see Pritchard, THE ANCIENT NEAR EAST IN PICTURES, 1969, figs. 351-355. The two identically rendered kneeling figures in registers 1 and 2
        Message 3 of 5 , Aug 18, 2006
          Re: Black Obelisk, see Pritchard, THE ANCIENT NEAR EAST IN PICTURES, 1969, figs. 351-355. The two identically rendered kneeling figures in registers 1 and 2 (fig. 351) are identified respectively as Sua, the Gilzanite and Jehu, son of Omri (pp. 290-291). Tribute bearers with 'floppy'caps' appear in several other panels, including one (fig. 351 bottom) where they are identified as coming from Suhi (a site on the middle Euphrates). One may conclude that in Assyrian art of this period floppy cap's were intended to represent peoples from territories to the east of the Assyrian heartland. Similar style hats worn by foreign tributaries also occur on several Assyrian ivories dated to about the same period. It should be noted that the style of the 'floppy cap' evolves somewhat in later periods of Assyrian art.
          Pauline Albenda,
          Brooklyn, NY

          siaxares <lars1950@...> wrote:


          JEWISH ETHNIC CLOTHING STYLE IN ANCIENT ARCHAEOLOGICAL ART

          The only two specific Jewish personages whose images were captured in
          ancient bas-reliefs were King Jehu paying tribute to Shalmaneser III and
          Nehemiah who served as cupbearer and prime minister of Persia during the
          reign of Artaxerxes and during co-rulership of Darius and Xerxes. I
          found it interesting that the Jewish headwear for King Jehu was similar
          to that used to identify Jews ethnically at Persepolis, where the theme
          of many different nations serving under the king in the vast Persian
          Empire was artistically demonstrated.

          The ethnic headwear associated with the Jews seemed to be consistently a
          "floppy cap" look. We can compare this look via Jehu at
          Persepolis because of the prominence of Nehemiah in the court of both
          Artaxerxes and during the co-rule of Darius and Xerxes where he first
          appears as Cupbearer. The Cupbearer's "badge of office" was
          the cup towel held in the hand. It is quite clear that Nehemiah was
          extremely favored by Artaxerxes who depicted Nehemiah with him alone in
          some of the reliefs allowing us to confirm positively that Nehemiah was
          both a eunuch and the prime minister of Persia during the reign of
          Artaxerxes. Additionally, when shown with other officials, each
          wearing their own ethnic headwear, Nehemiah, the Cupbearer/Prime
          Minister is clearly the highest-ranking court official as the Cupbearer.

          Of historical note below, it can't be absolutely determined if
          Nehemiah was always the chief cupbearer during the reign of Darius I and
          co-ruler Xerxes. That's because as noted below at the palace of
          Darius, which was the first building completed at Persepolis (after two
          years) Darius is seen with a different Cupbearer who was a non-eunuch
          and a Persian. The eunuchs covered their beardless chins and were
          highly trusted officials during the Persian monarchy. However, since
          there was a co-rulership with Xerxes, it's possible that each king
          had their own personal Cupbearer. So whether the Cupbearer seen with
          Darius alone was the original Cupbearer/prime minister of Persia when
          Darius first built at Persepolis who then died and was replaced by
          Nehemiah, or whether Nehemiah was already the prime minister/Cupbearer
          can't be determined since the actual rank in court can't be
          determined when the personal attendant is shown with the king alone.
          But whenever the entire court is depicted, Nehemiah is always first
          behind the king(s), whether with Artaxerxes and his court alone or
          during the co-rulership with Xerxes and Darius.

          It also appears that Jewish eunuchs were highly trusted particularly in
          food service where we find them wearing the same ethnic wear as
          identified with Nehemiah.

          Per the Bible, Nehemiah served under Artaxerxes throughout his entire
          41-year rule, living down into the time of Darius II and was highly
          favored by him. In fact, per Jewish extra-Biblical folkloric tales of
          Nehemiah, there was kind of a presumed "romance" between
          Nehemiah and Artaxerxes. I was doing some research at the Holocaust
          Museum in West Los Angeles that has a tiny Jewish library and read a
          rare extra-Biblical version of "Nehemias" that described him as
          sitting on Artaxerxes' lap and "batting his eyes at the
          king" when he asked the king to be released to go help his people!
          I'll have to find the precise reference, but I believe Herodotus
          commented briefly to the effect that eunuchs were considered to be
          extremely loyal to their masters because they substituted romantic love
          with the love of their king. Even so, whether with Darius and Xerxes or
          with Artaxerxes alone or in a group, he is clearly the most honored and
          highest-ranking official during this period. Of trivial note, Nehemiah
          would become the third person in Jewish history who rose to an extremely
          high court position among those they served, the other two being Joseph
          under king Apophis (per Manetho) during the Hyksos Period, and of course
          Daniel during the Neo-Babylonian Period.

          Enough talk. Now the "pictures" of ancient Jews from the Bible
          surviving in ancient art!

          King Jehu wearing floppy pointed cap bowing to King Shalmaneser III.

          http://www.bible-history.com/archaeology/assyria/obelisk-jehu-close-up.h\
          tml
          <http://www.bible-history.com/archaeology/assyria/obelisk-jehu-close-up.\
          html>

          Nehemiah as cupbearer, alone with Artaxerxes at Persepolis.

          http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/TH/2F9_72dpi.html
          <http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/TH/2F9_72dpi.html\

          Nehemiah as highest ranked official behind king Artaxerxes.

          http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/TH/2E9_72dpi.html
          <http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/TH/2E9_72dpi.html\
          >

          Nehemiah as highest official behind Artaxeres with others showing
          distinct ethnic headwear.

          Http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/TH/2F3_4.html
          <http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/TH/2F3_4.html>

          Nehemiah as prime minister/cupbearer during co-rule of Xerxes and Darius
          I.

          http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/TRE/3B10_4.html
          <http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/TRE/3B10_4.html>

          Original? Cupbearer at Palace of Darius, a Persian and non-eunuch.
          Possibly simply the personal cupbearer to Darius while Nehemiah was
          considered the prime minister and perhaps personal cupbearer to Xerxes
          before becoming the personal Cupbearer during the reign of Artaxerxes.

          http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/PD/3E6_72dpi.html
          <http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/PD/3E6_72dpi.html\
          >

          OTHER JEWS AT PERSEPOLIS:

          Of note, Jews were not named at Persepolis as a distinctly large and
          distinct country but are still quite present. The presumption is that
          they were a smaller sub-culture at the time, the majority of the Jewish
          nation at the time remaining at Babylon.

          More Jewish eunuchs trusted with food service, Palace of Darius.

          http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/PD/3D3_72dpi.html
          <http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/PD/3D3_72dpi.html\
          >

          More eunuchs of other ethnic backgrounds in food service including one
          Jewish eunuch serving holding a beverage, perhaps the eunuch/winekeeper.

          http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/PD/3C12_72dpi.html
          <http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/PD/3C12_72dpi.htm\
          l>

          Larry Wilson





          __________________________________________________
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        • Ever Wilson
          ... It s a quote from William Albright from his book on Biblical archaeology where he assessed that basically since both kings were the same exaggerated size
          Message 4 of 5 , Aug 18, 2006
            >From: "Niels Peter Lemche" <np13867@...>
            >Reply-To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Jewish individuals and ethnic style seen in ancient
            >mid-Eastern Art
            >Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 17:28:56 -0000
            >
            >I am sorry to say that this simply does not work. You simply have to
            >think about what you are doing.
            >
            >1. Your obsession with co-regencies. Happily I recently found reason
            >to buy Briant's splendid From Cyrus to Alexander in Peter Daniels'
            >splendid translation. He has an extensive discussion about the
            >succession of Dareios 1. Where did you get your idea from. Would be
            >nice if you had any evidence.
            >
            It's a quote from William Albright from his book on Biblical archaeology
            where
            he assessed that basically since both kings were the same exaggerated size
            and their heads were at the same level, this indicated to him a clear
            "co-rulership'.
            I'll try to find that quote for you, I couldn't come up with it in a quick
            search. But
            that hardly matters since he gave the reason for his conclusions: That is,
            if he was
            less equal to the king and not co-ruler he might have been decpited
            differently.
            If he was co-ruler though, what we expect in the way of artistically
            expressing that?
            So it's a judgment call. They are larger than the other figures, their
            heads are at the
            same level and in some of the depictions with Xerxes and Darius, Xerxes is
            actually
            holding onto the back of the throne. That could be interpreted as
            "succession"
            or "sharing" the throne. So that's where that idea came from.


            >2. The identification of Jehu is OK, but the identification of
            >Nehemiah is somply nonsense. You base the identification on a cap.

            Not at all. I was just noting the similarity, if only loose. The critical
            identification is that Artaxerxes appears alone with his cupbearer at
            Persepolis,
            honoring him greatly, a person we know from the Biblical record to be a Jew
            and a eunuch. Since Nehemiah was the cupbearer to Artaxerxes throughout
            his entire reign, that must be him. Or at least we presume it is him. Thus
            making the general presumption based upon the cupbearer in relation to
            this being Nehemiah instead of someone else, we notice he is not a Mede or
            Persian but something else. You suggest he could be anybody else not Mede
            or
            Persian? Great. But that includes a Jew. Additionally he is a eunuch,
            also
            a characteristic associated with Nehemiah. So he is circumstantially the
            first
            choice to rule out, and he doesn't get ruled out. Nothing about this
            person
            rules out his being Nehemiah, so we go from there. That is, the Bible
            claiming
            the cupbearer of Artaxerxes was the Jewish eunuch Nehemiah and we see
            at Persepolis Artaxerxes with his cupbearer who is non-Persian, non-Mede at
            least and thus "something else" but also a eunuch.

            So why are we running from this? The archaeology is consistent with the
            history. It may not prove the history, but it is consistent with it. Now
            the
            individual with Darius and Xerxes, whether co-rulers are not, simply was
            also
            a eunuch, non-Jew/non-Persian in the identical garb as Nehemiah with
            Artaxerxes.

            Was he the same person? Maybe not, Maybe just another Jewish eunuch
            prime minister.

            So I'm just noting based upon the bas-reliefs that the cupbearer, who holds
            the
            position equivalent to the prime minister, wasn't a Mede or Persian but of
            the same
            ethnic background and also a eunuch for both of those reigns. Because the
            person
            with Darius and Xerxes looks very muchy like Nehemiah when he was with
            Artaxerxes,
            of course, one would speculate this might be Nehemiah, already prime
            minister of
            all of Persia even from the time of Darius I. But like everything else in
            archaeology,
            different people read into what they see different things. I can accept
            that.


            >Well, with this kind of logic the mythical heroine of the French
            >revolution would also be a Jew as she wears the same cap. It is
            >nonsense from one end to the other.

            As I noted before, the cap was only a comparison to a "similar" one worn
            by Jehu, that's all. The critical identification that this is Jewish garb
            and/or
            this is Nehemiah is based upon Artaxerxes appearing alone with his cupbearer
            in
            the bas-reliefs. His cupbearer throughout his entire reign (except for 12
            years
            from year 20 to 32) was Nehemiah, who was also a eunuch. Artaxerxes
            appears with his non-Persian, non-Mede, eunuch cupbearer who is supposed to
            be, historically, Nehemiah. So I don't know why that's a problem. It's as
            if you're saying, "Oh no! This is definitely not Nehemiah!" as if you could
            prove it was someone else. Nehemiah fits the general description, so I'm
            assuming this is him.


            >After all, Jehu lived in the 9th
            >century BCE, Nehemiah in your chronology in the 5th century BCE. 400
            >years, that is quite a long time. 400 years ago, e.g., there was no
            >USA, Harvard had still to be founded, the 30 years war to be faught,
            >etc,etc, and dress style changed I do not know for how many times.
            >
            Well, that's understandable in general. But the Jews were unique. They
            had lots of laws and rules, and perhaps their own preferences. The styles
            are not exactly the same, but if they were it would only prove things had
            not changed much in all those years. But that is a matter of observation
            and research, not speculation. Based upon the "evidence before us",
            apparently these floppy caps were in vogue for the Jews even during the
            time of Jehu, as you can see, and continued to be used down to the
            Persian Period. Now this is distinct compared to lots of the other styles.
            Did you look at all the other very distinct headwear? The Medes worse
            rounded hats. The Persians a very distinct fluted cap. In no way "similar"
            to the floppy pointed cap of Jehu or Nehemiah. But it's your judgment call.
            The floppy pointed caps seem similar to me, similar enough not to be
            confused
            with Mede or Persian headwear.

            >3. Hos do you know that Jehus is a Jew. In the inscription following
            >the relief, he is presented as from the house of Omri.

            Sorry, I wasn't making a distinction since the term is so general now.
            You know, like JUDEO-BIBLICAL? JUDEO-SYRIAN? I think when we use
            those terms we presume it includes issues relating to the entire 12 tribes.

            >Jewish
            >means "from Juda", and as far as I know not even the Bible claims
            >that Jehu comes from this part of Palestine. What is a Jew? I do not
            >read in my Bible that caps have anything to do with that.
            >
            Well, so as not to "confuse" the issue I'll use "Israeli" or "Israelite",
            since the term "Jew" as a general reference didn't come into vogue
            until later. So "Israelite" wear.

            >I allowed the mail to be posted, not because you wrote something
            >important, but it shows a certain lay person's lack of methodology.
            >It might be a nasty thing to do, to expose one's co-humans in this
            >way, but I have to ask you to present evidence. Here is none, and the
            >basic assumptions are simply, sorry, nonsense.
            >
            My! I didn't realize this was such a big issue. I was sort of basically
            fascinated
            with the idea that two persons mentioned in the Bible ended up with
            "pictures"
            in ancient archaeological art. You know, there's Jehu right there. The
            King
            of Israel bowing down to Shalmaneser III. I noticed the costume he is
            depicted as wearing and his floppy pointed cap. The only other opportunity
            for a possible representation of another Biblical character is at Persepolis
            since
            Artaxerxes does appear with his cupbearer who is historically supposed to be
            Nehemiah and an Israelite.

            Persepolis art is fabulous and grand because the artists depicted the
            various
            ethnic groups, starting with the Medes and the Persians by distinctive
            ethnic
            wear. So it's easy to tell who is a Mede, who is a Persian, etc. Some
            others
            have been identified specifically when listed.

            So it seems just casually interesting that Nehemiah was wearing a similar
            floppy
            cap as was Jehu and was just observing the similar styles, perhaps the basis
            for
            the Israelities identifying with that headwear to distinguish themselves
            among the
            other ethnic groups.

            But I stand corrected. I can see I should have simply noted that this was a
            possibility
            and suggested but not confirmed for the other non-Persian, non-Mede eunuch
            prime ministers of Persia during the reign of Dariuis I with Xerxes, who
            could have been
            someone else other than Nehemiah, but simply similar to him until he became
            Cupbearer
            to Artaxerxes who includes him in some of the bas-reliefs at Persepolis.

            I don't get it. Are you saying that the cupbearer with Artaxerxes at
            Persepolis is _not_
            Nehemiah? if not. Who? And where's your reference?

            I thought people would enjoy seeing the pictures, frankly. But I guess not.
            Oh well...

            Have a nice day.

            Larry



            >Niels Peter Lemche
            >
            >PS: I had to do this before Peter gets at it. He will be much nastier
            >than I. So, please start trying to be logic, and present a decent
            >argument.
            >
            >
            >--- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "siaxares" <lars1950@...> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > JEWISH ETHNIC CLOTHING STYLE IN ANCIENT ARCHAEOLOGICAL ART
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > The only two specific Jewish personages whose images were captured
            >in
            > > ancient bas-reliefs were King Jehu paying tribute to Shalmaneser
            >III and
            > > Nehemiah who served as cupbearer and prime minister of Persia
            >during the
            > > reign of Artaxerxes and during co-rulership of Darius and Xerxes. I
            > > found it interesting that the Jewish headwear for King Jehu was
            >similar
            > > to that used to identify Jews ethnically at Persepolis, where the
            >theme
            > > of many different nations serving under the king in the vast Persian
            > > Empire was artistically demonstrated.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > The ethnic headwear associated with the Jews seemed to be
            >consistently a
            > > "floppy cap" look. We can compare this look via Jehu at
            > > Persepolis because of the prominence of Nehemiah in the court of
            >both
            > > Artaxerxes and during the co-rule of Darius and Xerxes where he
            >first
            > > appears as Cupbearer. The Cupbearer's "badge of office" was
            > > the cup towel held in the hand. It is quite clear that Nehemiah
            >was
            > > extremely favored by Artaxerxes who depicted Nehemiah with him
            >alone in
            > > some of the reliefs allowing us to confirm positively that Nehemiah
            >was
            > > both a eunuch and the prime minister of Persia during the reign of
            > > Artaxerxes. Additionally, when shown with other officials, each
            > > wearing their own ethnic headwear, Nehemiah, the Cupbearer/Prime
            > > Minister is clearly the highest-ranking court official as the
            >Cupbearer.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Of historical note below, it can't be absolutely determined if
            > > Nehemiah was always the chief cupbearer during the reign of Darius
            >I and
            > > co-ruler Xerxes. That's because as noted below at the palace of
            > > Darius, which was the first building completed at Persepolis (after
            >two
            > > years) Darius is seen with a different Cupbearer who was a non-
            >eunuch
            > > and a Persian. The eunuchs covered their beardless chins and were
            > > highly trusted officials during the Persian monarchy. However,
            >since
            > > there was a co-rulership with Xerxes, it's possible that each king
            > > had their own personal Cupbearer. So whether the Cupbearer seen
            >with
            > > Darius alone was the original Cupbearer/prime minister of Persia
            >when
            > > Darius first built at Persepolis who then died and was replaced by
            > > Nehemiah, or whether Nehemiah was already the prime
            >minister/Cupbearer
            > > can't be determined since the actual rank in court can't be
            > > determined when the personal attendant is shown with the king
            >alone.
            > > But whenever the entire court is depicted, Nehemiah is always first
            > > behind the king(s), whether with Artaxerxes and his court alone or
            > > during the co-rulership with Xerxes and Darius.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > It also appears that Jewish eunuchs were highly trusted
            >particularly in
            > > food service where we find them wearing the same ethnic wear as
            > > identified with Nehemiah.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Per the Bible, Nehemiah served under Artaxerxes throughout his
            >entire
            > > 41-year rule, living down into the time of Darius II and was highly
            > > favored by him. In fact, per Jewish extra-Biblical folkloric tales
            >of
            > > Nehemiah, there was kind of a presumed "romance" between
            > > Nehemiah and Artaxerxes. I was doing some research at the Holocaust
            > > Museum in West Los Angeles that has a tiny Jewish library and read a
            > > rare extra-Biblical version of "Nehemias" that described him as
            > > sitting on Artaxerxes' lap and "batting his eyes at the
            > > king" when he asked the king to be released to go help his people!
            > > I'll have to find the precise reference, but I believe Herodotus
            > > commented briefly to the effect that eunuchs were considered to be
            > > extremely loyal to their masters because they substituted romantic
            >love
            > > with the love of their king. Even so, whether with Darius and
            >Xerxes or
            > > with Artaxerxes alone or in a group, he is clearly the most honored
            >and
            > > highest-ranking official during this period. Of trivial note,
            >Nehemiah
            > > would become the third person in Jewish history who rose to an
            >extremely
            > > high court position among those they served, the other two being
            >Joseph
            > > under king Apophis (per Manetho) during the Hyksos Period, and of
            >course
            > > Daniel during the Neo-Babylonian Period.
            > >
            > > Enough talk. Now the "pictures" of ancient Jews from the Bible
            > > surviving in ancient art!
            > >
            > >
            > > King Jehu wearing floppy pointed cap bowing to King Shalmaneser III.
            > >
            > > http://www.bible-history.com/archaeology/assyria/obelisk-jehu-close-
            >up.h\
            > > tml
            > > <http://www.bible-history.com/archaeology/assyria/obelisk-jehu-
            >close-up.\
            > > html>
            > >
            > >
            > > Nehemiah as cupbearer, alone with Artaxerxes at Persepolis.
            > >
            > >
            >http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/TH/2F9_72dpi.htm
            >l
            > >
            ><http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/TH/2F9_72dpi.ht
            >ml\
            > >
            > >
            > > Nehemiah as highest ranked official behind king Artaxerxes.
            > >
            > >
            >http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/TH/2E9_72dpi.htm
            >l
            > >
            ><http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/TH/2E9_72dpi.ht
            >ml\
            > > >
            > >
            > > Nehemiah as highest official behind Artaxeres with others showing
            > > distinct ethnic headwear.
            > >
            > > Http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/TH/2F3_4.html
            > >
            ><http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/TH/2F3_4.html>
            > >
            > > Nehemiah as prime minister/cupbearer during co-rule of Xerxes and
            >Darius
            > > I.
            > >
            > >
            >http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/TRE/3B10_4.html
            > >
            ><http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/TRE/3B10_4.html
            > >
            > >
            > > Original? Cupbearer at Palace of Darius, a Persian and non-eunuch.
            > > Possibly simply the personal cupbearer to Darius while Nehemiah was
            > > considered the prime minister and perhaps personal cupbearer to
            >Xerxes
            > > before becoming the personal Cupbearer during the reign of
            >Artaxerxes.
            > >
            > >
            >http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/PD/3E6_72dpi.htm
            >l
            > >
            ><http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/PD/3E6_72dpi.ht
            >ml\
            > > >
            > >
            > > OTHER JEWS AT PERSEPOLIS:
            > >
            > > Of note, Jews were not named at Persepolis as a distinctly large and
            > > distinct country but are still quite present. The presumption is
            >that
            > > they were a smaller sub-culture at the time, the majority of the
            >Jewish
            > > nation at the time remaining at Babylon.
            > >
            > > More Jewish eunuchs trusted with food service, Palace of Darius.
            > >
            > >
            >http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/PD/3D3_72dpi.htm
            >l
            > >
            ><http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/PD/3D3_72dpi.ht
            >ml\
            > > >
            > >
            > > More eunuchs of other ethnic backgrounds in food service including
            >one
            > > Jewish eunuch serving holding a beverage, perhaps the
            >eunuch/winekeeper.
            > >
            > >
            >http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/PD/3C12_72dpi.ht
            >ml
            > >
            ><http://oi.uchicago.edu/OI/MUS/PA/IRAN/PAAI/IMAGES/PER/PD/3C12_72dpi.h
            >tm\
            > > l>
            > >
            > >
            > > Larry Wilson
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >

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