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Re: [ANE-2] A new beginning

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  • Don Mills
    ... I was planning comments on methodological aspects of the argumentation in the paper, but the topic of the paper can t be nearer to the center of the
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 16, 2006
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      Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:

      -----<snip>-----
      I was planning comments on methodological aspects
      of the argumentation in the paper, but the topic of the paper can't
      be nearer to the center of the historicity controversy. In the
      previous list my comments would have been a reaction to something
      already posted, but here I'd be starting the thread. So what's it to be?
      -----<snip to end>-----

      Someone's got to start a discourse at some time, Ariel ...

      -- Don Mills [London, England]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • drbrucekgardner@aol.com
      Hi ANE2 Listers, What do listers make of the story of Enoch who walked with God in Genesis 5, in an ANE context? Do listers know of any references or ANE
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 16, 2006
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        Hi ANE2 Listers,

        What do listers make of the story of 'Enoch who walked with God' in Genesis
        5, in an ANE context? Do listers know of any references or ANE parallels on
        this that I could follow up?

        Thanks,

        Bruce Gardner
        Aberdeen Scotland UK.


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • victor avigdor hurowitz
        Woe Ariel, Ariel! That biblical allusion now out of my system (Is 29:1), and in all due respect, I think that starting ANE-2 with a discussion of the
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 16, 2006
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          Woe Ariel, Ariel!
          That biblical allusion now out of my system (Is 29:1), and
          in all due respect, I think that starting ANE-2 with a discussion of the
          "Historicity controversy" would be a very bad choice. Why don't we give
          the Bible a rest? We should start off
          by distancing ourselves from the problems which plagued the previous
          list. How about something like "monotheistic tendencies in Ancient Near
          Eastern religions outside of Israel"; Or "Aramization in the Ancient Near
          East"; or "imperialism and religion"; or "languages of communication" in
          the ancient near east, or "historicity of royal inscriptions" (if you
          insist on historicity); or tools for ancient near eastern studies in a
          cyberage, or the reading of such and such a cuneiform sign. I won't start
          off any of these discussions,
          but will certainly follow them with greater interest than I would another
          round in the biblical historicity controversary.
          Victor

          Prof. Victor Avigdor Hurowitz
          Dept. of Bible, Archaeology and Ancient Near Eastern Studies
          Ben-Gurion University of the Negev
          Beer-Sheva, Israel




          On Thu, 16 Feb 2006, Don Mills wrote:

          > Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:
          >
          > -----<snip>-----
          > I was planning comments on methodological aspects
          > of the argumentation in the paper, but the topic of the paper can't
          > be nearer to the center of the historicity controversy. In the
          > previous list my comments would have been a reaction to something
          > already posted, but here I'd be starting the thread. So what's it to be?
          > -----<snip to end>-----
          >
          > Someone's got to start a discourse at some time, Ariel ...
          >
          > -- Don Mills [London, England]
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Victor Hurowitz
          Have a look at Author: Kvanvig,
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 16, 2006
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            Have a look at




            Author:

            Kvanvig,
            <javascript:open_window(%22http://dahab.bgu.ac.il:80/F/6IKSRLUS2LRCC11B94VVY
            85N53MAGHKHSVA9HMHBS2MBMNNSAN-03129?func=service&doc_number=001222661&line_n
            umber=0006&service_type=TAG%22);> Helge S., 1948-


            Title:

            Roots
            <javascript:open_window(%22http://dahab.bgu.ac.il:80/F/6IKSRLUS2LRCC11B94VVY
            85N53MAGHKHSVA9HMHBS2MBMNNSAN-03130?func=service&doc_number=001222661&line_n
            umber=0007&service_type=TAG%22);> of apocalyptic :
            the Mesopotamian background of the Enoch figure and of the Son of Man /
            Helge S. Kvanvig


            Published:

            Neukirchen-Vluyn
            <javascript:open_window(%22http://dahab.bgu.ac.il:80/F/6IKSRLUS2LRCC11B94VVY
            85N53MAGHKHSVA9HMHBS2MBMNNSAN-03131?func=service&doc_number=001222661&line_n
            umber=0008&service_type=TAG%22);> : Neukirchener Verlag, 1988








            Victor



            -----Original Message-----
            From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
            drbrucekgardner@...
            Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 10:57 AM
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] A new beginning



            Hi ANE2 Listers,



            What do listers make of the story of 'Enoch who walked with God' in Genesis


            5, in an ANE context? Do listers know of any references or ANE parallels on


            this that I could follow up?



            Thanks,



            Bruce Gardner

            Aberdeen Scotland UK.





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]













            Yahoo! Groups Links



            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ANE-2/



            ANE-2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



            http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/









            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Patrick Ryan
            Ariel, I would be interested in asking a question in the context of monotheism. Are there any indications that Haldi (Hurrian god) was the focus of a
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 16, 2006
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              Ariel,

              I would be interested in asking a question in the context of monotheism.

              Are there any indications that Haldi (Hurrian god) was the focus of a monotheistic system or one moving towards monotheism?

              Patrick
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: victor avigdor hurowitz<mailto:victor@...>
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 3:02 AM
              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] A new(?) beginning


              Woe Ariel, Ariel!
              That biblical allusion now out of my system (Is 29:1), and
              in all due respect, I think that starting ANE-2 with a discussion of the
              "Historicity controversy" would be a very bad choice. Why don't we give
              the Bible a rest? We should start off
              by distancing ourselves from the problems which plagued the previous
              list. How about something like "monotheistic tendencies in Ancient Near
              Eastern religions outside of Israel"; Or "Aramization in the Ancient Near
              East"; or "imperialism and religion"; or "languages of communication" in
              the ancient near east, or "historicity of royal inscriptions" (if you
              insist on historicity); or tools for ancient near eastern studies in a
              cyberage, or the reading of such and such a cuneiform sign. I won't start
              off any of these discussions,
              but will certainly follow them with greater interest than I would another
              round in the biblical historicity controversary.
              Victor

              Prof. Victor Avigdor Hurowitz
              Dept. of Bible, Archaeology and Ancient Near Eastern Studies
              Ben-Gurion University of the Negev
              Beer-Sheva, Israel




              On Thu, 16 Feb 2006, Don Mills wrote:

              > Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:
              >
              > -----<snip>-----
              > I was planning comments on methodological aspects
              > of the argumentation in the paper, but the topic of the paper can't
              > be nearer to the center of the historicity controversy. In the
              > previous list my comments would have been a reaction to something
              > already posted, but here I'd be starting the thread. So what's it to be?
              > -----<snip to end>-----
              >
              > Someone's got to start a discourse at some time, Ariel ...
              >
              > -- Don Mills [London, England]
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >






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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • victor avigdor hurowitz
              I m not a Hurrologist and don t worship their gods, but isn t Haldi an Urartian god, the one mentioned in Sargon s 8th campaign? Victor
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 16, 2006
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                I'm not a Hurrologist and don't worship their gods, but isn't Haldi an
                Urartian god, the one mentioned in Sargon's 8th campaign?
                Victor



                On Thu, 16 Feb 2006, Patrick Ryan wrote:

                > Ariel,
                >
                > I would be interested in asking a question in the context of monotheism.
                >
                > Are there any indications that Haldi (Hurrian god) was the focus of a monotheistic system or one moving towards monotheism?
                >
                > Patrick
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: victor avigdor hurowitz<mailto:victor@...>
                > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 3:02 AM
                > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] A new(?) beginning
                >
                >
                > Woe Ariel, Ariel!
                > That biblical allusion now out of my system (Is 29:1), and
                > in all due respect, I think that starting ANE-2 with a discussion of the
                > "Historicity controversy" would be a very bad choice. Why don't we give
                > the Bible a rest? We should start off
                > by distancing ourselves from the problems which plagued the previous
                > list. How about something like "monotheistic tendencies in Ancient Near
                > Eastern religions outside of Israel"; Or "Aramization in the Ancient Near
                > East"; or "imperialism and religion"; or "languages of communication" in
                > the ancient near east, or "historicity of royal inscriptions" (if you
                > insist on historicity); or tools for ancient near eastern studies in a
                > cyberage, or the reading of such and such a cuneiform sign. I won't start
                > off any of these discussions,
                > but will certainly follow them with greater interest than I would another
                > round in the biblical historicity controversary.
                > Victor
                >
                > Prof. Victor Avigdor Hurowitz
                > Dept. of Bible, Archaeology and Ancient Near Eastern Studies
                > Ben-Gurion University of the Negev
                > Beer-Sheva, Israel
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > On Thu, 16 Feb 2006, Don Mills wrote:
                >
                > > Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:
                > >
                > > -----<snip>-----
                > > I was planning comments on methodological aspects
                > > of the argumentation in the paper, but the topic of the paper can't
                > > be nearer to the center of the historicity controversy. In the
                > > previous list my comments would have been a reaction to something
                > > already posted, but here I'd be starting the thread. So what's it to be?
                > > -----<snip to end>-----
                > >
                > > Someone's got to start a discourse at some time, Ariel ...
                > >
                > > -- Don Mills [London, England]
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > SPONSORED LINKS Near<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Near&w1=Near&w2=Ancient&w3=University+of+chicago&c=3&s=50&.sig=aVz6i_8jEdKbBX8H7JNf2A> Ancient<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Ancient&w1=Near&w2=Ancient&w3=University+of+chicago&c=3&s=50&.sig=i__45E9H9auv49UTibKO4g> University of chicago<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=University+of+chicago&w1=Near&w2=Ancient&w3=University+of+chicago&c=3&s=50&.sig=YnBSDXrWnRu6PQo-N0zxtg>
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                > Yahoo! Groups Links
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              • Trudy Kawami
                Bruce, I cannot give you a literary reference but there is a big visual one in the Hittite reliefs of Chamber B at Yazilikaya in central Anatolia where the
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 16, 2006
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                  Bruce,

                  I cannot give you a literary reference but there is a big visual one in
                  the Hittite reliefs of Chamber B at Yazilikaya in central Anatolia where
                  the Hittite king Tudhaliyas IV is shown walking by the side of his
                  patron god Sharumma whose arm protectively encircles the king's
                  shoulders.

                  Trudy Kawami



                  ________________________________

                  From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                  drbrucekgardner@...
                  Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 3:57 AM
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [ANE-2] A new beginning



                  Hi ANE2 Listers,

                  What do listers make of the story of 'Enoch who walked with God' in
                  Genesis
                  5, in an ANE context? Do listers know of any references or ANE parallels
                  on
                  this that I could follow up?

                  Thanks,

                  Bruce Gardner
                  Aberdeen Scotland UK.


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                  rsity+of+chicago&c=3&s=50&.sig=i__45E9H9auv49UTibKO4g>

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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • drbrucekgardner@aol.com
                  In a message dated 16/02/2006 16:57:36 GMT Standard Time, tkawami@arthurmsacklerfdn.org writes: Bruce, I cannot give you a literary reference but there is a
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 16, 2006
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                    In a message dated 16/02/2006 16:57:36 GMT Standard Time,
                    tkawami@... writes:

                    Bruce,

                    I cannot give you a literary reference but there is a big visual one in
                    the Hittite reliefs of Chamber B at Yazilikaya in central Anatolia where
                    the Hittite king Tudhaliyas IV is shown walking by the side of his
                    patron god Sharumma whose arm protectively encircles the king's
                    shoulders.

                    Trudy Kawami


                    Dear Trudy,

                    Thanks very much - I will certainly follow this one up.

                    :-)

                    Bruce Gardner
                    Aberdeen Scotland UK


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Ariel L. Szczupak
                    ... Not only I don t insist on it, I m not really interested in biblical historicity per se (as the ANE1 archive can show while it s still there). My interest
                    Message 9 of 11 , Feb 16, 2006
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                      At 11:02 16/02/2006, victor avigdor hurowitz wrote:
                      >Woe Ariel, Ariel!

                      ... the city where snow once settled ... :(

                      >... if you insist on historicity ...

                      Not only I don't insist on it, I'm not really interested in biblical
                      historicity per se (as the ANE1 archive can show while it's still
                      there). My interest is in the methodology for establishing, or not,
                      the historicity of textual evidence in general. Biblical historicity
                      is just one case, but it is an "active" battlefield, one in which
                      accepted methodologies are determined by the scientific community,
                      and, continuing the analogy, NPL is one of the warlords ...

                      It was one of the first messages in the list and you quoted only DM's
                      snipped version, so maybe you didn't see the full message. I used
                      this example because it was handy, as something I was working on, for
                      illustrating four issues, not just the historicity issue, that I
                      think the moderators should consider. And possibly make guidelines
                      and policies to address them. Four issues that are at this euphoric
                      point theoretical, but judging from ANE1's history will become real
                      soon enough. A kind of "better brush your teeth now than have a root
                      canal job in the future" comment :)

                      So don't cry for me ANE2 arena, I have no intention of initiating a
                      biblical historicity thread.


                      Ariel.

                      [100% bona fide dilettante ... delecto ergo sum!]

                      ---
                      Ariel L. Szczupak
                      AMIS-JLM (Ricercar Ltd.)
                      POB 4707, Jerusalem, Israel 91401
                      Phone: +972-2-5619660 Fax: +972-2-5634203
                      ane.als@... http://amis-jlm.co.il
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