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A new beginning

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  • Paul James Cowie
    Kudos to Jeffrey Gibson for seizing the initiative in creating the second incarnation of the ANE List - redivivus , even before its official demise! So
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 14, 2006
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      Kudos to Jeffrey Gibson for seizing the initiative in creating the second incarnation of the
      ANE List - "redivivus", even before its official demise!

      So dismayed was I at the decision relayed from the Oriental Institute to end hosting of the
      ANE List, to which I have been contributing since 1994 (!), that I yesterday toyed with the
      idea of doing something similar. Instead, I was both encouraged and relieved to witness
      Jeffrey step in to the breach. (The hosting and current redesign of my own web site
      [ http://www.ancientneareast.net ], several other online projects and the imminent
      completion of my doctoral dissertation all competed to discourage my "rushing in where
      angels fear to tread"!)

      A few observations from a long-time contributor then: Jeffrey's demand that joint
      moderation now become the norm seems eminently sensible. A list rises or falls according
      to the quality of its moderation, that much seems clear from recent events.

      I note further that the the Protocols of the previous ANE List have been transferred to the
      new... Might I suggest that some measure of sensible debate now ensue as to changes (if
      any!) that list members might wish to see as regards the Protocol? My own chief
      suggestion would be a simple demand that list members maintain their profiles carefully,
      and that they identify their interests, experience and affiliations briefly, both in their
      profile and/or in a post signature. This, I believe, would provide prime context for each
      post, enquiry and response on a fundamental basis, enhancing each members'
      understanding and appreciation of each other and contributions made.

      Again, thanks to Jeffrey.... I look forward to continuing discussion on the new list, both
      with former members of ANE and with those new members that this fresh beginning must
      surely attract.

      ------------

      Paul James Cowie
      BA Hons (Sydney) GradDipEd MA (Macquarie) PhD in candidato

      London, England and Sydney, Australia

      Editor, http://www.ancientneareast.net/
      Area Supervisor, Tel Rehov Excavations, Israel

      PhD Candidate, Department of Ancient History and Archaeology, Macquarie
      University, Sydney, Australia
    • Ariel L. Szczupak
      ... Ditto. [...] ... I would like to note, and on this I claim expertise, that in an animated, lively forum the moderator , be it one person or a panel, has
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 15, 2006
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        At 09:14 15/02/2006, Paul James Cowie wrote:
        >Kudos to Jeffrey Gibson for seizing the initiative in creating the
        >second incarnation of the
        >ANE List - "redivivus", even before its official demise!

        Ditto.

        [...]

        >... Jeffrey's demand that joint moderation now become the norm seems
        >eminently sensible. A list rises or falls according to the quality
        >of its moderation, that much seems clear from recent events.

        I would like to note, and on this I claim expertise, that in an
        animated, lively forum the "moderator", be it one person or a panel,
        has to speak, and rule, in one consistent voice ("has" as in
        otherwise the list goes bad). That applies to simple technical issues
        (limited/unlimited posts per day) but also to more complex issues -
        it's not a good idea to have the moderator's ego allowing historicity
        threads while his alter-ego forbids them.

        [...]

        >Might I suggest that some measure of sensible debate now ensue as to
        >changes (if any!) that list members might wish to see as regards the Protocol?

        Which is a good opportunity for me to point to some issues which I
        think the "moderator", in its generic sense, will have to think about
        and maybe formulate into specific guidelines in the list rules. And
        I'll use a specific example to illustrate these issues.

        Back in the old days, some two weeks ago :), I started jotting down
        notes to myself for posting a comment on some of NPL's points in "On
        the Problems of Reconstructing Pre-Hellenistic Israelite
        (Palestinian) History" which was mentioned on the list.

        http://www.arts.ualberta.ca/JHS/Articles/article_13.htm


        Now NPL is a moderator, so what happens now? Will the moderators
        participate actively in the list? What happens when a list member
        takes the initial step and criticizes a moderator's publication? The
        issue is of course the perceived fairness of the moderation process.
        Personally I'm happy with all the names mentioned so far and I don't
        think I would have no problem in accepting whatever they decide,
        including a gag order, but it's something that's bound to come up and
        I think the moderators should form some policy on dealing with such cases.

        Next is the topic. I was planning comments on methodological aspects
        of the argumentation in the paper, but the topic of the paper can't
        be nearer to the center of the historicity controversy. In the
        previous list my comments would have been a reaction to something
        already posted, but here I'd be starting the thread. So what's it to be?

        Which brings me to a more general issue, that of a kibitzing pisher
        like me commenting on the published work of a respected professional,
        or the issue of participating dilettantes. I do like to think that my
        comments are within the bounds of scientific discourse (except for
        some stupid jokes), but others may think otherwise. Personally I'd be
        willing to shut up if it'd help the "shy" experts become more active.
        [I do however reserve the right to post a rebuttal whenever someone
        will claim that fig trees bear fruit once a year, something which
        seems to happen every year or two]. For the moderators' consideration.

        And last, as I said my planned focus is the methodology, which brings
        me to the more general issue of the scope of the list, and if it'll
        be limited to ANE issues or will meta-issues be acceptable too. By
        meta-issues I mean discussions of tools and knowledge that are not
        directly connected to the ANE but which are commonly used in
        ANE-related argumentation. An example would be a discussion on the
        reliability and precision of archeometrical dating techniques, but
        another example, one about which there have complaints, would be
        issues in linguistics. Allowing discussions of meta-issues brings in
        practically all of the scientific disciplines. Personally I think
        meta-discussions were one of the attractions of the defunct list, but
        I know that others resented it.

        Excuse me for welcoming the moderators with such problems, but I
        think it's better they address them now, without pressure, than to
        have to decide when the problems occur and tempers are hot. Good luck
        in a tough job!

        [I'm far from ready with my comments on NPL's paper, as in weeks away
        from being ready, so there's no need for a quick decision about this
        specific example]


        And now I'm off to check if it started snowing already (or if it'll
        be another false alert). And since snow in Jerusalem isn't mentioned
        even once in the bible, that proves it isn't a historical document.
        [I did mention the stupid jokes, right?]


        Oh, and please leave the list configured to reply to the list, as
        "public reply to public message" makes more sense than "private reply
        to public message" ...



        Ariel.

        [100% bona fide dilettante ... delecto ergo sum!]

        ---
        Ariel L. Szczupak
        AMIS-JLM (Ricercar Ltd.)
        POB 4707, Jerusalem, Israel 91401
        Phone: +972-2-5619660 Fax: +972-2-5634203
        ane.als@... http://amis-jlm.co.il
      • Don Mills
        ... I was planning comments on methodological aspects of the argumentation in the paper, but the topic of the paper can t be nearer to the center of the
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 16, 2006
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          Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:

          -----<snip>-----
          I was planning comments on methodological aspects
          of the argumentation in the paper, but the topic of the paper can't
          be nearer to the center of the historicity controversy. In the
          previous list my comments would have been a reaction to something
          already posted, but here I'd be starting the thread. So what's it to be?
          -----<snip to end>-----

          Someone's got to start a discourse at some time, Ariel ...

          -- Don Mills [London, England]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • drbrucekgardner@aol.com
          Hi ANE2 Listers, What do listers make of the story of Enoch who walked with God in Genesis 5, in an ANE context? Do listers know of any references or ANE
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 16, 2006
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            Hi ANE2 Listers,

            What do listers make of the story of 'Enoch who walked with God' in Genesis
            5, in an ANE context? Do listers know of any references or ANE parallels on
            this that I could follow up?

            Thanks,

            Bruce Gardner
            Aberdeen Scotland UK.


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • victor avigdor hurowitz
            Woe Ariel, Ariel! That biblical allusion now out of my system (Is 29:1), and in all due respect, I think that starting ANE-2 with a discussion of the
            Message 5 of 11 , Feb 16, 2006
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              Woe Ariel, Ariel!
              That biblical allusion now out of my system (Is 29:1), and
              in all due respect, I think that starting ANE-2 with a discussion of the
              "Historicity controversy" would be a very bad choice. Why don't we give
              the Bible a rest? We should start off
              by distancing ourselves from the problems which plagued the previous
              list. How about something like "monotheistic tendencies in Ancient Near
              Eastern religions outside of Israel"; Or "Aramization in the Ancient Near
              East"; or "imperialism and religion"; or "languages of communication" in
              the ancient near east, or "historicity of royal inscriptions" (if you
              insist on historicity); or tools for ancient near eastern studies in a
              cyberage, or the reading of such and such a cuneiform sign. I won't start
              off any of these discussions,
              but will certainly follow them with greater interest than I would another
              round in the biblical historicity controversary.
              Victor

              Prof. Victor Avigdor Hurowitz
              Dept. of Bible, Archaeology and Ancient Near Eastern Studies
              Ben-Gurion University of the Negev
              Beer-Sheva, Israel




              On Thu, 16 Feb 2006, Don Mills wrote:

              > Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:
              >
              > -----<snip>-----
              > I was planning comments on methodological aspects
              > of the argumentation in the paper, but the topic of the paper can't
              > be nearer to the center of the historicity controversy. In the
              > previous list my comments would have been a reaction to something
              > already posted, but here I'd be starting the thread. So what's it to be?
              > -----<snip to end>-----
              >
              > Someone's got to start a discourse at some time, Ariel ...
              >
              > -- Don Mills [London, England]
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Victor Hurowitz
              Have a look at Author: Kvanvig,
              Message 6 of 11 , Feb 16, 2006
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                Have a look at




                Author:

                Kvanvig,
                <javascript:open_window(%22http://dahab.bgu.ac.il:80/F/6IKSRLUS2LRCC11B94VVY
                85N53MAGHKHSVA9HMHBS2MBMNNSAN-03129?func=service&doc_number=001222661&line_n
                umber=0006&service_type=TAG%22);> Helge S., 1948-


                Title:

                Roots
                <javascript:open_window(%22http://dahab.bgu.ac.il:80/F/6IKSRLUS2LRCC11B94VVY
                85N53MAGHKHSVA9HMHBS2MBMNNSAN-03130?func=service&doc_number=001222661&line_n
                umber=0007&service_type=TAG%22);> of apocalyptic :
                the Mesopotamian background of the Enoch figure and of the Son of Man /
                Helge S. Kvanvig


                Published:

                Neukirchen-Vluyn
                <javascript:open_window(%22http://dahab.bgu.ac.il:80/F/6IKSRLUS2LRCC11B94VVY
                85N53MAGHKHSVA9HMHBS2MBMNNSAN-03131?func=service&doc_number=001222661&line_n
                umber=0008&service_type=TAG%22);> : Neukirchener Verlag, 1988








                Victor



                -----Original Message-----
                From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                drbrucekgardner@...
                Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 10:57 AM
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [ANE-2] A new beginning



                Hi ANE2 Listers,



                What do listers make of the story of 'Enoch who walked with God' in Genesis


                5, in an ANE context? Do listers know of any references or ANE parallels on


                this that I could follow up?



                Thanks,



                Bruce Gardner

                Aberdeen Scotland UK.





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]













                Yahoo! Groups Links



                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ANE-2/



                ANE-2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/









                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Patrick Ryan
                Ariel, I would be interested in asking a question in the context of monotheism. Are there any indications that Haldi (Hurrian god) was the focus of a
                Message 7 of 11 , Feb 16, 2006
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                  Ariel,

                  I would be interested in asking a question in the context of monotheism.

                  Are there any indications that Haldi (Hurrian god) was the focus of a monotheistic system or one moving towards monotheism?

                  Patrick
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: victor avigdor hurowitz<mailto:victor@...>
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 3:02 AM
                  Subject: Re: [ANE-2] A new(?) beginning


                  Woe Ariel, Ariel!
                  That biblical allusion now out of my system (Is 29:1), and
                  in all due respect, I think that starting ANE-2 with a discussion of the
                  "Historicity controversy" would be a very bad choice. Why don't we give
                  the Bible a rest? We should start off
                  by distancing ourselves from the problems which plagued the previous
                  list. How about something like "monotheistic tendencies in Ancient Near
                  Eastern religions outside of Israel"; Or "Aramization in the Ancient Near
                  East"; or "imperialism and religion"; or "languages of communication" in
                  the ancient near east, or "historicity of royal inscriptions" (if you
                  insist on historicity); or tools for ancient near eastern studies in a
                  cyberage, or the reading of such and such a cuneiform sign. I won't start
                  off any of these discussions,
                  but will certainly follow them with greater interest than I would another
                  round in the biblical historicity controversary.
                  Victor

                  Prof. Victor Avigdor Hurowitz
                  Dept. of Bible, Archaeology and Ancient Near Eastern Studies
                  Ben-Gurion University of the Negev
                  Beer-Sheva, Israel




                  On Thu, 16 Feb 2006, Don Mills wrote:

                  > Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:
                  >
                  > -----<snip>-----
                  > I was planning comments on methodological aspects
                  > of the argumentation in the paper, but the topic of the paper can't
                  > be nearer to the center of the historicity controversy. In the
                  > previous list my comments would have been a reaction to something
                  > already posted, but here I'd be starting the thread. So what's it to be?
                  > -----<snip to end>-----
                  >
                  > Someone's got to start a discourse at some time, Ariel ...
                  >
                  > -- Don Mills [London, England]
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >






                  SPONSORED LINKS Near<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Near&w1=Near&w2=Ancient&w3=University+of+chicago&c=3&s=50&.sig=aVz6i_8jEdKbBX8H7JNf2A> Ancient<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Ancient&w1=Near&w2=Ancient&w3=University+of+chicago&c=3&s=50&.sig=i__45E9H9auv49UTibKO4g> University of chicago<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=University+of+chicago&w1=Near&w2=Ancient&w3=University+of+chicago&c=3&s=50&.sig=YnBSDXrWnRu6PQo-N0zxtg>


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                • victor avigdor hurowitz
                  I m not a Hurrologist and don t worship their gods, but isn t Haldi an Urartian god, the one mentioned in Sargon s 8th campaign? Victor
                  Message 8 of 11 , Feb 16, 2006
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                    I'm not a Hurrologist and don't worship their gods, but isn't Haldi an
                    Urartian god, the one mentioned in Sargon's 8th campaign?
                    Victor



                    On Thu, 16 Feb 2006, Patrick Ryan wrote:

                    > Ariel,
                    >
                    > I would be interested in asking a question in the context of monotheism.
                    >
                    > Are there any indications that Haldi (Hurrian god) was the focus of a monotheistic system or one moving towards monotheism?
                    >
                    > Patrick
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: victor avigdor hurowitz<mailto:victor@...>
                    > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 3:02 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] A new(?) beginning
                    >
                    >
                    > Woe Ariel, Ariel!
                    > That biblical allusion now out of my system (Is 29:1), and
                    > in all due respect, I think that starting ANE-2 with a discussion of the
                    > "Historicity controversy" would be a very bad choice. Why don't we give
                    > the Bible a rest? We should start off
                    > by distancing ourselves from the problems which plagued the previous
                    > list. How about something like "monotheistic tendencies in Ancient Near
                    > Eastern religions outside of Israel"; Or "Aramization in the Ancient Near
                    > East"; or "imperialism and religion"; or "languages of communication" in
                    > the ancient near east, or "historicity of royal inscriptions" (if you
                    > insist on historicity); or tools for ancient near eastern studies in a
                    > cyberage, or the reading of such and such a cuneiform sign. I won't start
                    > off any of these discussions,
                    > but will certainly follow them with greater interest than I would another
                    > round in the biblical historicity controversary.
                    > Victor
                    >
                    > Prof. Victor Avigdor Hurowitz
                    > Dept. of Bible, Archaeology and Ancient Near Eastern Studies
                    > Ben-Gurion University of the Negev
                    > Beer-Sheva, Israel
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > On Thu, 16 Feb 2006, Don Mills wrote:
                    >
                    > > Ariel L. Szczupak wrote:
                    > >
                    > > -----<snip>-----
                    > > I was planning comments on methodological aspects
                    > > of the argumentation in the paper, but the topic of the paper can't
                    > > be nearer to the center of the historicity controversy. In the
                    > > previous list my comments would have been a reaction to something
                    > > already posted, but here I'd be starting the thread. So what's it to be?
                    > > -----<snip to end>-----
                    > >
                    > > Someone's got to start a discourse at some time, Ariel ...
                    > >
                    > > -- Don Mills [London, England]
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                  • Trudy Kawami
                    Bruce, I cannot give you a literary reference but there is a big visual one in the Hittite reliefs of Chamber B at Yazilikaya in central Anatolia where the
                    Message 9 of 11 , Feb 16, 2006
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                      Bruce,

                      I cannot give you a literary reference but there is a big visual one in
                      the Hittite reliefs of Chamber B at Yazilikaya in central Anatolia where
                      the Hittite king Tudhaliyas IV is shown walking by the side of his
                      patron god Sharumma whose arm protectively encircles the king's
                      shoulders.

                      Trudy Kawami



                      ________________________________

                      From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                      drbrucekgardner@...
                      Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2006 3:57 AM
                      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] A new beginning



                      Hi ANE2 Listers,

                      What do listers make of the story of 'Enoch who walked with God' in
                      Genesis
                      5, in an ANE context? Do listers know of any references or ANE parallels
                      on
                      this that I could follow up?

                      Thanks,

                      Bruce Gardner
                      Aberdeen Scotland UK.


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • drbrucekgardner@aol.com
                      In a message dated 16/02/2006 16:57:36 GMT Standard Time, tkawami@arthurmsacklerfdn.org writes: Bruce, I cannot give you a literary reference but there is a
                      Message 10 of 11 , Feb 16, 2006
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                        In a message dated 16/02/2006 16:57:36 GMT Standard Time,
                        tkawami@... writes:

                        Bruce,

                        I cannot give you a literary reference but there is a big visual one in
                        the Hittite reliefs of Chamber B at Yazilikaya in central Anatolia where
                        the Hittite king Tudhaliyas IV is shown walking by the side of his
                        patron god Sharumma whose arm protectively encircles the king's
                        shoulders.

                        Trudy Kawami


                        Dear Trudy,

                        Thanks very much - I will certainly follow this one up.

                        :-)

                        Bruce Gardner
                        Aberdeen Scotland UK


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Ariel L. Szczupak
                        ... Not only I don t insist on it, I m not really interested in biblical historicity per se (as the ANE1 archive can show while it s still there). My interest
                        Message 11 of 11 , Feb 16, 2006
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                          At 11:02 16/02/2006, victor avigdor hurowitz wrote:
                          >Woe Ariel, Ariel!

                          ... the city where snow once settled ... :(

                          >... if you insist on historicity ...

                          Not only I don't insist on it, I'm not really interested in biblical
                          historicity per se (as the ANE1 archive can show while it's still
                          there). My interest is in the methodology for establishing, or not,
                          the historicity of textual evidence in general. Biblical historicity
                          is just one case, but it is an "active" battlefield, one in which
                          accepted methodologies are determined by the scientific community,
                          and, continuing the analogy, NPL is one of the warlords ...

                          It was one of the first messages in the list and you quoted only DM's
                          snipped version, so maybe you didn't see the full message. I used
                          this example because it was handy, as something I was working on, for
                          illustrating four issues, not just the historicity issue, that I
                          think the moderators should consider. And possibly make guidelines
                          and policies to address them. Four issues that are at this euphoric
                          point theoretical, but judging from ANE1's history will become real
                          soon enough. A kind of "better brush your teeth now than have a root
                          canal job in the future" comment :)

                          So don't cry for me ANE2 arena, I have no intention of initiating a
                          biblical historicity thread.


                          Ariel.

                          [100% bona fide dilettante ... delecto ergo sum!]

                          ---
                          Ariel L. Szczupak
                          AMIS-JLM (Ricercar Ltd.)
                          POB 4707, Jerusalem, Israel 91401
                          Phone: +972-2-5619660 Fax: +972-2-5634203
                          ane.als@... http://amis-jlm.co.il
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