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Zarins & the Garden of Eden

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  • E. Adams
    ... I don t think this is a matter of Zarins claiming the prize for locating the two rivers and thus locating the sunken garden. Franz Delitzsch already
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 11 6:38 PM
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      William Tallman wrote:
      >Gen 2:11-12 describes the first river, Gen
      >2:13 the second river, Gen
      >2:14 the other two rivers, which are not in
      >question. So actually all
      >that is at issue here is the identification
      >of the two unidentified
      >rivers, Pishon and Gihon.

      >Given a failure to refute the above
      >interpretation, Zarins claim is
      >refuted if and only if one of these two
      >identifications is shown to be
      >invalid. If neither is shown to be invalid,
      >then Zarins claim stands as
      >Sufficient. To claim the prize, any other
      >claim must also be shown to
      >be Sufficient, *and* contain a refutation of
      >Zarins claim; only thus
      >could it be both Sufficient and Necessary.

      I don't think this is a matter of Zarins
      "claiming the prize" for locating the two
      rivers and thus locating the sunken garden.
      Franz Delitzsch already picked the same four
      rivers and the same location in I think 1884
      with his "Wo Lag das Paradies?" What Zarins
      has added is a new interpretation, drawing on
      his years of research on the prehistoric transition
      to the Neolithic, the Chalcolithic climatic events, etc, as an explanation for the expulsion from the Garden.

      (I'm just coming from the top of my head, as
      I've been abroad and am several hundred messages behind,
      so I hope I have the date
      and Delitzsch's first name right. If you google
      some of our earlier Eden location discussions on
      old ANE, I probably gave more details on Delitzsch).

      I have only read the woman's article on Zarins' theory and not Zarins himself, but I would think even she should have mentioned Delitzsch, who is more explicit about the Karun flowing through Khuzistan, formerly spelled Chusitan from LXX Chus for Kush, and acknowledged in his day as the land of the Kish/Kash/Kushites of Susiana, who may have spread there after Kurigalzu's conquest of Susa in the 14th c BC... (Actually Delitzsch may not have known about that last part, and certainly not the latest conclusion of the
      Elamitologists (?) that it was Kurigalzu the
      great, builder of Dur-Kurigalzu (identified by
      the Israelites in captivity as Nimrod's Tower) who conquered Susa , and not his later descendant Kurigalzu II.)


      E. Nyokabi Adams
      retired non-academic
    • William D. Tallman
      ... Yes, the use of Zarins as the identifier of the claim is locally convenient to this discussion. It is the claim itself that is relevant. IIRC, the
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 11 7:15 PM
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        On Sun, Jun 11, 2006 at 09:38:38PM -0400, E. Adams wrote:
        > William Tallman wrote:
        > >Gen 2:11-12 describes the first river, Gen 2:13 the second river, Gen
        > >2:14 the other two rivers, which are not in question. So actually all
        > >that is at issue here is the identification of the two unidentified
        > >rivers, Pishon and Gihon.
        >
        > >Given a failure to refute the above interpretation, Zarins claim is
        > >refuted if and only if one of these two identifications is shown to
        > >be invalid. If neither is shown to be invalid, then Zarins claim
        > >stands as Sufficient. To claim the prize, any other claim must also
        > >be shown to be Sufficient, *and* contain a refutation of Zarins
        > >claim; only thus could it be both Sufficient and Necessary.
        >
        > I don't think this is a matter of Zarins "claiming the prize" for
        > locating the two rivers and thus locating the sunken garden. Franz
        > Delitzsch already picked the same four rivers and the same location in
        > I think 1884 with his "Wo Lag das Paradies?" What Zarins has added is
        > a new interpretation, drawing on his years of research on the
        > prehistoric transition to the Neolithic, the Chalcolithic climatic
        > events, etc, as an explanation for the expulsion from the Garden.
        <snip>

        Yes, the use of Zarins as the identifier of the claim is locally
        convenient to this discussion. It is the claim itself that is relevant.
        IIRC, the article mentions that Zarins had broad shoulders upon which to
        stand.

        I think that Zarins contribution was the identification of the river
        from Arabia, which apparently completed the identifications. He had
        done some work in that area and apparently discerned that the wadis he
        was investigating actually constituted a complete water course clear to
        the Persian Gulf. The rest came as he researched what had already been
        done in developing this scenario.

        My interest here, as I've stated before, is discerning and identifying
        where and how myth/antiquity interfaces with prehistory, such that can
        be verified. My pet "theory" involves Enoch and his astronomical
        descriptions that quite neatly describe a calendrical device for
        observational systemic astronomy; megaliths and all that. So anything
        that can be shown to have had a basis in fact, such as the GoE story,
        gets my attention.

        I'm not really interested in the disciplines traditional to ANE studies,
        but I am very interested in their findings, especially in these regards.
        What I'm most interested in is the reality that gave birth to the whole
        business of the gods! But that's another story and this is my last post
        for the day.

        Thanks for reading,

        Bill Tallman
        --
        Can't remember who I am? Last post less than an hour ago: look it up!
        :D
      • gtosiris@mpx.com.au
        Hi. I think you mean the assyriologist Friedrich Delitzsch (1850-1920) as author of Wo Lag das Paradies? (1881). He was the son of the Orientalist Franz
        Message 3 of 13 , Jun 11 10:40 PM
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          Hi.

          I think you mean the assyriologist Friedrich Delitzsch (1850-1920) as author of Wo Lag
          das Paradies? (1881). He was the son of the Orientalist Franz Delitzsch (1813-1890).

          Regards,
          Gary Thompson

          On 11 Jun 2006 at 21:38, E. Adams wrote:

          [snip]
          > I don't think this is a matter of Zarins
          > "claiming the prize" for locating the two
          > rivers and thus locating the sunken garden.
          > Franz Delitzsch already picked the same four
          > rivers and the same location in I think 1884
          > with his "Wo Lag das Paradies?" What Zarins
          > has added is a new interpretation, drawing on
          > his years of research on the prehistoric transition
          > to the Neolithic, the Chalcolithic climatic events, etc, as an
          > explanation for the expulsion from the Garden.
          [snip]
        • gtosiris@mpx.com.au
          Correction regarding my previous post. The life dates for Friedrich Delitzsch were 1850- 1922 (not 1850-1920). Regards, Gary Thompson
          Message 4 of 13 , Jun 11 11:05 PM
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            Correction regarding my previous post. The life dates for Friedrich Delitzsch were 1850-
            1922 (not 1850-1920). Regards, Gary Thompson
          • Walter R. Mattfeld
            A correction is in order, my post stated that conflicting Mesopotamian myths placed the _creation_of_Man at Nippur and Eridu, through an oversight I neglected
            Message 5 of 13 , Jun 12 12:36 PM
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              A correction is in order, my post stated that conflicting Mesopotamian myths placed the _creation_of_Man at Nippur and Eridu, through an oversight I neglected to mention _man's_ceation by Marduk at Babylon. So we have three locations for man's creation. My observation that _no_ myth has man being created "in Dilmun" still stands.

              Regards, Water
              Walter Reinhold Warttig Mattfeld, M.A. Ed.
              mattfeld12@...
              www.bibleorigins.net


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • gtosiris@mpx.com.au
              Hi. I would like to identify the full journal titles for following abbreviations: (1) C.A.G. (2) Forsch. u Fortsch. Any assistance would be appreciated.
              Message 6 of 13 , Jun 29 11:37 PM
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                Hi.

                I would like to identify the full journal titles for following abbreviations:

                (1) C.A.G.

                (2) Forsch. u Fortsch.

                Any assistance would be appreciated.

                Thanks.

                Gary Thompson
              • Niels Peter Lemche
                Forsch. U. Fortsch must be Forschungen und Fortschritte in CAD abbreviated as FF Niels Peter Lemche PS: Are you sure about CAG? ... Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Message 7 of 13 , Jun 30 12:43 AM
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                  Forsch. U. Fortsch must be Forschungen und Fortschritte in CAD abbreviated as FF

                  Niels Peter Lemche

                  PS: Are you sure about CAG?


                  -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                  Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af gtosiris@...
                  Sendt: 30. juni 2006 08:38
                  Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  Emne: [ANE-2] Request for assistance with identification of journals

                  Hi.

                  I would like to identify the full journal titles for following abbreviations:

                  (1) C.A.G.

                  (2) Forsch. u Fortsch.

                  Any assistance would be appreciated.

                  Thanks.
                • gtosiris@mpx.com.au
                  Hi Niels. Thanks immensely. I have finally determined that C. A. G. is not a journal reference as I had been assuming but actually refers to the 19th-century
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jun 30 1:58 AM
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                    Hi Niels.

                    Thanks immensely.

                    I have finally determined that C. A. G. is not a journal reference as I had been assuming but actually refers to the 19th-century book Chaldean Account of Genesis by George Smith. My apologies for the mistake.

                    Regards,
                    Gary Thompson

                    On 30 Jun 2006 at 9:43, Niels Peter Lemche wrote:

                    [snip]
                    > Forsch. U. Fortsch must be Forschungen und Fortschritte in CAD
                    > abbreviated as FF
                    [snip]
                    > PS: Are you sure about CAG?
                  • Tom Elliott
                    ... The Barrington Atlas uses CAG for: Michel Provost (ed.), Carte archéologique de la Gaule, Paris, Académie des inscriptions et belles-lettres, 1988-
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jun 30 3:05 AM
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                      gtosiris@... wrote:
                      > (1) C.A.G.

                      The Barrington Atlas uses "CAG" for:

                      Michel Provost (ed.), Carte archéologique de la Gaule, Paris, Académie
                      des inscriptions et belles-lettres, 1988- (Worldcat: 19596821). Multiple
                      separately titled volumes (numbered and referenced by number, e.g., CAG
                      34), still in production.

                      But this will have very little to do with the ANE. What is the
                      historical/cultural context for the problematic citation?

                      Best,
                      Tom

                      --
                      Tom Elliott, Ph.D.
                      Director, Pleiades Project
                      Ancient World Mapping Center
                      University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
                      http://www.unc.edu/awmc/pleiades.html
                    • gtosiris@mpx.com.au
                      Hi Tom. Thanks also. You would have read my CAG identified e-mail by now. My basic problem was working from an incomplete copy of Brown s book Eridanus
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jun 30 4:31 AM
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                        Hi Tom.

                        Thanks also. You would have read my "CAG identified" e-mail by now. My basic problem
                        was working from an incomplete copy of Brown's book Eridanus published in 1883.

                        Regards,
                        Gary Thompson

                        On 30 Jun 2006 at 5:05, Tom Elliott wrote:

                        >
                        > gtosiris@... wrote:
                        > > (1) C.A.G.
                        >
                        > The Barrington Atlas uses "CAG" for:
                        >
                        > Michel Provost (ed.), Carte archéologique de la Gaule, Paris,
                        > Académie des inscriptions et belles-lettres, 1988- (Worldcat:
                        > 19596821). Multiple separately titled volumes (numbered and referenced
                        > by number, e.g., CAG 34), still in production.
                        >
                        > But this will have very little to do with the ANE. What is the
                        > historical/cultural context for the problematic citation?
                        >
                        > Best,
                        > Tom
                        >
                        > --
                        > Tom Elliott, Ph.D.
                        > Director, Pleiades Project
                        > Ancient World Mapping Center
                        > University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
                        > http://www.unc.edu/awmc/pleiades.html
                      • E Bruce Brooks
                        To: ANE-2 In Response To: Gary Thompson On: Abbreviations From: Bruce Gary, to my mind quite naturally, had assumed that C.A.G was a journal reference. Then:
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jun 30 9:42 AM
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                          To: ANE-2
                          In Response To: Gary Thompson
                          On: Abbreviations
                          From: Bruce

                          Gary, to my mind quite naturally, had assumed that "C.A.G" was a journal
                          reference. Then:

                          GARY: I have finally determined that C. A. G. is not a journal reference as
                          I had been assuming but actually refers to the 19th-century book Chaldean
                          Account of Genesis by George Smith. My apologies for the mistake.

                          BRUCE: This, I suggest, is the problem with the convention (which, as a
                          foreigner, I note is widespread among Near Eastern professionals) of using
                          acronyms BOTH for journals, which is standard in all fields as far as I
                          know, and ALSO for books frequently referred to. In our practice (and as a
                          specific recommendation for our journal, in Chinese and comparative ancient
                          history), we recommend confining acronyms to journals (with at most an
                          extension to series, as a sort of quasi-journal), and referring to
                          frequently used single books by their author's surname alone; in this case,
                          it would have been understood that "Smith" alone or with a page number
                          referred to the George Smith work.

                          Besides disasmbiguation, one reason for the distinction is that the list of
                          books frequently referred to is liable to vary with the author's subject,
                          and thus are likely to be temporary and ad hoc conventions, whereas the
                          journals are there for all users (and there are standard lists of their
                          acronyms).

                          Respectfully suggested,

                          Bruce

                          E Bruce Brooks
                          Warring States Project
                          University of Massachusetts at Amherst
                        • gtosiris@mpx.com.au
                          Hi. Based on a library record (which merely mentions offprint) it would appear that the Finnish Assyriologist Knut Tallqvist (1865-1949) published a book
                          Message 12 of 13 , Sep 18, 2006
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                            Hi.

                            Based on a library record (which merely mentions offprint) it would appear that the Finnish Assyriologist Knut Tallqvist (1865-1949) published a book review of Studien zu den Babylonischen Texten, Heft VI B by the pioneer Assyriologist Johann Strassmaier. I would appreciate any assistance in identifying the publication that the book review appeared in. It possibly appeared circa 1892. Thanks for any assistance.

                            Regards,
                            Gary Thompson
                          • gtosiris@mpx.com.au
                            Hi, I have been informed that a portrait photograph of the astronomer and pioneer assyriologist Joseph Epping SJ appeared in the obituary for Joseph Epping by
                            Message 13 of 13 , Jun 10 4:18 AM
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                              Hi,

                              I have been informed that a portrait photograph of the astronomer and pioneer assyriologist
                              Joseph Epping SJ appeared in the obituary for Joseph Epping by Alexander Baumgartner SJ in
                              Zeitschrift für Assyriologie und Verwandte Gebeite, Neunter Band (Volume Nine), 1894. I have
                              consulted two copies of the particular volume in Australia but cannot locate such. However,
                              both copies of the particular volumes were damaged and any portrait plate at the end of the volume
                              may have been lost. Can anybody on this list verify whether or not a portrait plate of Joseph Epping
                              does exist in this particular volume?

                              Thanks in advance for any assistance.

                              Regards,
                              Gary Thompson
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