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A formal language for describing cuneiform signs?

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  • mjb_clubint
    Hi, I am new to this group and did not find anything about my query in the previous posts, but maybe someone has a clue. Has anyone ever thought of a general
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 26, 2014
      Hi,

      I am new to this group and did not find anything about my query in the previous posts, but maybe someone has a clue. Has anyone ever thought of a general means for formally describing a cuneiform sign? For example, a way of formalizing a description like "a full size vertical wedge, followed by two vertical wedges one on top of the oher" (sign A). Other example "a full size horizontal wedge with an added hook at its end" (sign BE) etc. The description language could encompass simplified coordinate and length data for each sign element, or function according to a more "vectorial" approach.

      The benefit I see for such a system is that it would be possible to describe precisely the glyphs of a particular inscription and enable a computer to reproduce them correctly for many possible purposes (font creation, publication, self training...).

      Any idea? Thanks in advance.

      Marc
      uva.academia.edu/MarcBavant


    • Peter T. Daniels
      I think you ll find that in descriptions of the standard ordering system for signs (followed by Labat, von Soden, etc.), which goes back to the late 19th
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 26, 2014
        I think you'll find that in descriptions of the standard ordering system for signs (followed by Labat, von Soden, etc.), which goes back to the late 19th century. I'm pretty sure it's unambiguous -- no arbitrary decisions need to be made.

        It's most unfortunate that the Unicode people chose to list signs in the English alphabetical order of a supposed Sumerian value, since it makes it very difficult for anyone familiar with any of the other cuneiform languages to find particular signs.
        --
        Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
        Jersey City

        From: "mjb_clubint@... [ANE-2]" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2014 11:03 AM
        Subject: [ANE-2] A formal language for describing cuneiform signs?

         
        Hi,

        I am new to this group and did not find anything about my query in the previous posts, but maybe someone has a clue. Has anyone ever thought of a general means for formally describing a cuneiform sign? For example, a way of formalizing a description like "a full size vertical wedge, followed by two vertical wedges one on top of the oher" (sign A). Other example "a full size horizontal wedge with an added hook at its end" (sign BE) etc. The description language could encompass simplified coordinate and length data for each sign element, or function according to a more "vectorial" approach.

        The benefit I see for such a system is that it would be possible to describe precisely the glyphs of a particular inscription and enable a computer to reproduce them correctly for many possible purposes (font creation, publication, self training...).

        Any idea? Thanks in advance.

        Marc
        uva.academia.edu/MarcBavant
      • mjb_clubint
        Thanks for your reply, Peter. Yes, I more or less know the ordering rules used e.g. by Labat or Steve though I never saw them in detailed writing, but I would
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 26, 2014
          Thanks for your reply, Peter. Yes, I more or less know the ordering rules used e.g. by Labat or Steve though I never saw them in detailed writing, but I would need something a bit different viz. a way to formally describe the whole sign so as to be capable of drawing it using the sole description.


          ---In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, <grammatim@...> wrote :

          I think you'll find that in descriptions of the standard ordering system for signs (followed by Labat, von Soden, etc.), which goes back to the late 19th century. I'm pretty sure it's unambiguous -- no arbitrary decisions need to be made.

          It's most unfortunate that the Unicode people chose to list signs in the English alphabetical order of a supposed Sumerian value, since it makes it very difficult for anyone familiar with any of the other cuneiform languages to find particular signs.
          --
          Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
          Jersey City

          From: "mjb_clubint@... [ANE-2]" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2014 11:03 AM
          Subject: [ANE-2] A formal language for describing cuneiform signs?

           
          Hi,

          I am new to this group and did not find anything about my query in the previous posts, but maybe someone has a clue. Has anyone ever thought of a general means for formally describing a cuneiform sign? For example, a way of formalizing a description like "a full size vertical wedge, followed by two vertical wedges one on top of the oher" (sign A). Other example "a full size horizontal wedge with an added hook at its end" (sign BE) etc. The description language could encompass simplified coordinate and length data for each sign element, or function according to a more "vectorial" approach.

          The benefit I see for such a system is that it would be possible to describe precisely the glyphs of a particular inscription and enable a computer to reproduce them correctly for many possible purposes (font creation, publication, self training...).

          Any idea? Thanks in advance.

          Marc
          uva.academia.edu/MarcBavant
        • R. Lehmann
          Marc, as far as I remember, someone in the late 19th century had done so. There is a vague recall in my brain that it had to do with the personage around my
          Message 4 of 7 , Jul 26, 2014
            Marc,
            as far as I remember, someone in the late 19th century had done so. There is a vague recall in my brain that it had to do with the personage around my doctoral dissertation, thus maybe Friedrich Delitzsch himself (his Lesestücke??), or Winckler or someone else of the Berlin Assyriologists circle(s) of the late 19th or the turn of the century.
            Good luck for finding more,
            Reinhard

            ¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨

            Dr. Reinhard G. Lehmann, Academic Director
            Research Unit on Ancient Hebrew & Epigraphy
            FB 01/ Faculty of Protestant Theology
            Johannes Gutenberg-University of Mainz
            D-55099 Mainz
            Germany
            lehmann@...
            http://www.hebraistik.uni-mainz.de/eng







            Am 26.07.2014 um 21:36 schrieb mjb_clubint@... [ANE-2]:

             

            Thanks for your reply, Peter. Yes, I more or less know the ordering rules used e.g. by Labat or Steve though I never saw them in detailed writing, but I would need something a bit different viz. a way to formally describe the whole sign so as to be capable of drawing it using the sole description.



            ---In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, <grammatim@...> wrote :

            I think you'll find that in descriptions of the standard ordering system for signs (followed by Labat, von Soden, etc.), which goes back to the late 19th century. I'm pretty sure it's unambiguous -- no arbitrary decisions need to be made.

            It's most unfortunate that the Unicode people chose to list signs in the English alphabetical order of a supposed Sumerian value, since it makes it very difficult for anyone familiar with any of the other cuneiform languages to find particular signs.
            --
            Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
            Jersey City

            From: "mjb_clubint@... [ANE-2]" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2014 11:03 AM
            Subject: [ANE-2] A formal language for describing cuneiform signs?

             
            Hi,

            I am new to this group and did not find anything about my query in the previous posts, but maybe someone has a clue. Has anyone ever thought of a general means for formally describing a cuneiform sign? For example, a way of formalizing a description like "a full size vertical wedge, followed by two vertical wedges one on top of the oher" (sign A). Other example "a full size horizontal wedge with an added hook at its end" (sign BE) etc. The description language could encompass simplified coordinate and length data for each sign element, or function according to a more "vectorial" approach.

            The benefit I see for such a system is that it would be possible to describe precisely the glyphs of a particular inscription and enable a computer to reproduce them correctly for many possible purposes (font creation, publication, self training...).

            Any idea? Thanks in advance.

            Marc
            uva.academia.edu/MarcBavant


          • mjb_clubint
            Thanks to all who replied. It seems there are some approaching solutions, but nothing really matching my expectation. So, time permitting, I should try to
            Message 5 of 7 , Aug 1, 2014
              Thanks to all who replied. It seems there are some approaching solutions, but nothing really matching my expectation. So, time permitting, I should try to design it myself :)

              Best

              Marc


              ---In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, <mjb_clubint@...> wrote :

              Hi,

              I am new to this group and did not find anything about my query in the previous posts, but maybe someone has a clue. Has anyone ever thought of a general means for formally describing a cuneiform sign? For example, a way of formalizing a description like "a full size vertical wedge, followed by two vertical wedges one on top of the oher" (sign A). Other example "a full size horizontal wedge with an added hook at its end" (sign BE) etc. The description language could encompass simplified coordinate and length data for each sign element, or function according to a more "vectorial" approach.

              The benefit I see for such a system is that it would be possible to describe precisely the glyphs of a particular inscription and enable a computer to reproduce them correctly for many possible purposes (font creation, publication, self training...).

              Any idea? Thanks in advance.

              Marc
              uva.academia.edu/MarcBavant


            • mjb_clubint
              Hi,I did design a sketch of the formal language I was looking for and I put it into practice in an application for drawing cuneiform signs and for presenting
              Message 6 of 7 , Aug 14, 2014
                Hi,I did design a sketch of the formal language I was looking for and I put it into practice in an application for drawing cuneiform signs and for presenting lists of such signs (in order to learn them). I called the application "SVG Cuneiform Tool" because it uses the Scalable Vector Graphics standard. For further description and to access the application, you can visit the tool page through the URL below:http://uva.academia.edu/MarcBavant/Inscription-corpora-and-related-work

                The current design of the signs shown by the tool correspond to the syllabary of a Middle Elamite inscription, but I would appreciate comments from assyriologists working in different fields too. The tool is useful for me, maybe it can be useful to others.

                BestMarc---In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, <mjb_clubint@...> wrote :
                Thanks to all who replied. It seems there are some approaching solutions, but nothing really matching my expectation. So, time permitting, I should try to design it myself :)
                BestMarc---In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, <mjb_clubint@...> wrote :
                Hi,I am new to this group and did not find anything about my query in the previous posts, but maybe someone has a clue. Has anyone ever thought of a general means for formally describing a cuneiform sign? For example, a way of formalizing a description like "a full size vertical wedge, followed by two vertical wedges one on top of the oher" (sign A). Other example "a full size horizontal wedge with an added hook at its end" (sign BE) etc. The description language could encompass simplified coordinate and length data for each sign element, or function according to a more "vectorial" approach. The benefit I see for such a system is that it would be possible to describe precisely the glyphs of a particular inscription and enable a computer to reproduce them correctly for many possible purposes (font creation, publication, self training...).Any idea? Thanks in advance.Marcuva.academia.edu/MarcBavant


              • mjb_clubint
                Hi all, I just uploaded an enhanced version of the tool: a more realistic rendering style, around 80 glyphs from Šilhak-Inšušinak s Great stele, a new
                Message 7 of 7 , Aug 27, 2014
                  Hi all,

                  I just uploaded an enhanced version of the tool:
                  • a more realistic rendering style,
                  • around 80 glyphs from Šilhak-Inšušinak's Great stele,
                  • a new command for entering the syllabogram string you want to display,
                  • some detail corrections
                  The tool is still available through my home page at academia.edu and more precisely:

                  http://uva.academia.edu/MarcBavant/Inscription-corpora-and-related-work

                   

                  In case you meet problems to use it, or if you have comments or questions on the tool, feel free to contact me or post here.


                  Regards


                  Marc


                  ---In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, <mjb_clubint@...> wrote :

                  Hi,I did design a sketch of the formal language I was looking for and I put it into practice in an application for drawing cuneiform signs and for presenting lists of such signs (in order to learn them). I called the application "SVG Cuneiform Tool" because it uses the Scalable Vector Graphics standard. For further description and to access the application, you can visit the tool page through the URL below:http://uva.academia.edu/MarcBavant/Inscription-corpora-and-related-work

                  The current design of the signs shown by the tool correspond to the syllabary of a Middle Elamite inscription, but I would appreciate comments from assyriologists working in different fields too. The tool is useful for me, maybe it can be useful to others.

                  BestMarc---In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, <mjb_clubint@...> wrote :
                  Thanks to all who replied. It seems there are some approaching solutions, but nothing really matching my expectation. So, time permitting, I should try to design it myself :)
                  BestMarc---In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, <mjb_clubint@...> wrote :
                  Hi,I am new to this group and did not find anything about my query in the previous posts, but maybe someone has a clue. Has anyone ever thought of a general means for formally describing a cuneiform sign? For example, a way of formalizing a description like "a full size vertical wedge, followed by two vertical wedges one on top of the oher" (sign A). Other example "a full size horizontal wedge with an added hook at its end" (sign BE) etc. The description language could encompass simplified coordinate and length data for each sign element, or function according to a more "vectorial" approach. The benefit I see for such a system is that it would be possible to describe precisely the glyphs of a particular inscription and enable a computer to reproduce them correctly for many possible purposes (font creation, publication, self training...).Any idea? Thanks in advance.Marcuva.academia.edu/MarcBavant


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