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judges

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  • Lisbeth Fried
    Dear All, Were judges in antiquity paid? And if so , by whom? Or were they just supposed to be wealthy so they would not be influenced by bribes? Is there any
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 22, 2013
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      Dear All,

      Were judges in antiquity paid? And if so , by whom?

      Or were they just supposed to be wealthy so they would not be influenced by bribes?

      Is there any info on this?

      Thanks,

      Liz

       

      Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
      Visiting Scholar
      Department of Near Eastern Studies
      University of Michigan
      202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
      Ann Arbor, MI 48104
      www.lisbethfried.com

      I sent (too much) rain on one city, and sent no rain on another city; and still you did not return to me, says YHWH. (Amo 4:7-8 )

       

    • Raz Kletter
      Dear Liz, In Iron Age Israel and Judah I don t think there were professional judges . The King was also judge (1 sam 8:20 [MT], 1 Kings 3:7, 16ff; etc.) and
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 22, 2013
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        Dear Liz,
             In Iron Age Israel and Judah I don't think there were "professional judges". The King was also judge (1 sam 8:20 [MT], 1 Kings 3:7, 16ff; etc.) and required no pay for this duty/right. In lower levels local leaders judged, again not in any sense of full-time profession. Indirectly it shows also in the (a-typical) Naboth case.  In 2 Chr. 19:5 a reform of putting juges in Judah is ascribed to Jehoshaphat - missing in 2 Kings, it's a late addition by the Chronicler, who picked it up this Kings' name.
            The authority to judge came naturally with the position of ruling. One could apply to the King in a last resort . Sure there were bribes, and honesty of witnesses was often discussed.
           I think ANE sources portray a similar picture, eg Parpola in Death in Mesopotamia, Rencontre Ass. 26 (1980) on the murder of Sennacherib, when the man asked to be judged by the King.  
        Incidentally, since when being wealthy guarantees agains taking bribes?  
        Best,
        Raz Kletter  
         
        2013/10/22 Lisbeth Fried <lizfried@...>
         

        Dear All,

        Were judges in antiquity paid? And if so , by whom?

        Or were they just supposed to be wealthy so they would not be influenced by bribes?

        Is there any info on this?

        Thanks,

        Liz

         

        Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
        Visiting Scholar
        Department of Near Eastern Studies
        University of Michigan
        202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
        Ann Arbor, MI 48104
        www.lisbethfried.com

        I sent (too much) rain on one city, and sent no rain on another city; and still you did not return to me, says YHWH. (Amo 4:7-8 )

         


      • Lisbeth Fried
        Thanks Raz, That last line had me laughing. I do recall an article by Rivka Harris tho to the effect that judges had to be rich to avoid bribery charges. Moses
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 23, 2013
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          Thanks Raz,

          That last line had me laughing.

           

          I do recall an article by Rivka Harris tho to the effect that judges had to be rich to avoid bribery charges.

           

          Moses is told to appoint judges throughout all the tribes.

          Probably they weren’t paid, except perhaps by the litigants.

           

          Liz

           

          Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
          Visiting Scholar
          Department of Near Eastern Studies
          University of Michigan
          202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
          Ann Arbor, MI 48104
          www.lisbethfried.com

          I sent (too much) rain on one city, and sent no rain on another city; and still you did not return to me, says YHWH. (Amo 4:7-8 )

           

          From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Raz Kletter
          Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 4:16 PM
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [ANE-2] judges

           

           

          Dear Liz,

               In Iron Age Israel and Judah I don't think there were "professional judges". The King was also judge (1 sam 8:20 [MT], 1 Kings 3:7, 16ff; etc.) and required no pay for this duty/right. In lower levels local leaders judged, again not in any sense of full-time profession. Indirectly it shows also in the (a-typical) Naboth case.  In 2 Chr. 19:5 a reform of putting juges in Judah is ascribed to Jehoshaphat - missing in 2 Kings, it's a late addition by the Chronicler, who picked it up this Kings' name.
              The authority to judge came naturally with the position of ruling. One could apply to the King in a last resort . Sure there were bribes, and honesty of witnesses was often discussed.

             I think ANE sources portray a similar picture, eg Parpola in Death in Mesopotamia, Rencontre Ass. 26 (1980) on the murder of Sennacherib, when the man asked to be judged by the King.  

          Incidentally, since when being wealthy guarantees agains taking bribes?  

          Best,

          Raz Kletter  

           

          2013/10/22 Lisbeth Fried <lizfried@...>

           

          Dear All,

          Were judges in antiquity paid? And if so , by whom?

          Or were they just supposed to be wealthy so they would not be influenced by bribes?

          Is there any info on this?

          Thanks,

          Liz

           

          Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
          Visiting Scholar
          Department of Near Eastern Studies
          University of Michigan
          202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
          Ann Arbor, MI 48104
          www.lisbethfried.com

          I sent (too much) rain on one city, and sent no rain on another city; and still you did not return to me, says YHWH. (Amo 4:7-8 )

           

           

        • sbudin
          As a possibly interesting side note by way of comparison/contrast, Homer in his description of the Shield of Achilles mentions that a group of kings would hear
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 23, 2013
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            As a possibly interesting side note by way of comparison/contrast,
            Homer in his description of the Shield of Achilles mentions that a group
            of kings would hear a case, each would offer a recommendation/judgment,
            and a payment of two ingots of gold was paid to whichever king made the
            best judgment, as determined by the crowd. For his own part, Hesiod in
            the 'Works and Days' complains that judges/kings are greedy for gold,
            suggesting more that they took bribes, rather than strove to give the
            best judgment.

            -Stephanie Budin




            On 2013-10-23 09:41, Lisbeth Fried wrote:
            > Thanks Raz,
            >
            > That last line had me laughing.
            >
            > I do recall an article by Rivka Harris tho to the effect that judges
            > had to be rich to avoid bribery charges.
            >
            > Moses is told to appoint judges throughout all the tribes.
            >
            > Probably they weren't paid, except perhaps by the litigants.
            >
            > Liz
            >
            > Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
            > Visiting Scholar
            > Department of Near Eastern Studies
            > University of Michigan
            > 202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
            > Ann Arbor, MI 48104
            > www.lisbethfried.com [2]
            >
            > I sent (too much) rain on one city, and sent no rain on another city;
            > and still you did not return to me, says YHWH. (Amo 4:7-8 )
            >
            > FROM: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] ON BEHALF
            > OF Raz Kletter
            > SENT: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 4:16 PM
            > TO: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            > SUBJECT: Re: [ANE-2] judges
            >
            > Dear Liz,
            >
            > In Iron Age Israel and Judah I don't think there were "professional
            > judges". The King was also judge (1 sam 8:20 [MT], 1 Kings 3:7, 16ff;
            > etc.) and required no pay for this duty/right. In lower levels local
            > leaders judged, again not in any sense of full-time profession.
            > Indirectly it shows also in the (a-typical) Naboth case. In 2 Chr.
            > 19:5 a reform of putting juges in Judah is ascribed to Jehoshaphat -
            > missing in 2 Kin gs, it's a late addition by the Chronicler, who
            > picked it up this Kings' name.
            > The authority to judge came naturally with the position of ruling.
            > One could apply to the King in a last resort . Sure there were
            > bribes,
            > and honesty of witnesses was often discussed.
            >
            > I think ANE sources portray a similar picture, eg Parpola in _Death
            > in Mesopotamia, _Rencontre Ass. 26 (1980) on the murder of
            > Sennacherib, when the man asked to be judged by the King.
            >
            > Incidentally, since when being wealthy guarantees agains taking
            > bribes?
            >
            > Best,
            >
            > Raz Kletter
            >
            > 2013/10/22 Lisbeth Fried <lizfried@... [3]>
            >
            >> Dear All,
            >>
            >> Were judges in antiquity paid? And if so , by whom?
            >>
            >> Or were they just supposed to be wealthy so they would not be
            >> influenced by bribes?
            >>
            >> Is there any info on this?
            >>
            >> Thanks,
            >>
            >> Liz
            >>
            >> Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
            >> Visiting Scholar
            >> Department of Near Eastern Studies
            >> University of Michigan
            >> 202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
            >> Ann Arbor, MI 48104
            >> www.lisbethfried.com [1]
            >>
            >> I sent (too much) rain on one city, and sent no rain on another
            >> city; and still you did not return to me, says YHWH. (Amo 4:7-8 )
            >
            >
            >
            > Links:
            > ------
            > [1] http://www.lisbethfried.com/
            > [2] http://www.lisbethfried.com
            > [3] mailto:lizfried@...
            > [4]
            >
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ANE-2/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJnMmRmYTVlBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzE3MjM1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTg0MTQ2NwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNzdG5ncwRzdGltZQMxMzgyNTM1NTM5
            > [5] mailto:ANE-2-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=EmailDelivery:Digest
            > [6]
            >
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ANE-2;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNGQyMjJpBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzE3MjM1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTg0MTQ2NwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNocGYEc3RpbWUDMTM4MjUzNTUzOQ--
            > [7] http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/
            > [8] mailto:ANE-2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe
          • Jeffrey Blakely
            Hi, You might find some insight in Clinton Bailey s study of Bedouin Law http://yalepress.yale.edu/book.asp?isbn=9780300153248 Jeffrey A. Blakely Madison, WI
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 23, 2013
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              Hi,

              You might find some insight in Clinton Bailey's study of Bedouin Law

              http://yalepress.yale.edu/book.asp?isbn=9780300153248

              Jeffrey A. Blakely
              Madison, WI

              On 23/10/13, sbudin wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > As a possibly interesting side note by way of comparison/contrast,
              > Homer in his description of the Shield of Achilles mentions that a group
              > of kings would hear a case, each would offer a recommendation/judgment,
              > and a payment of two ingots of gold was paid to whichever king made the
              > best judgment, as determined by the crowd. For his own part, Hesiod in
              > the 'Works and Days' complains that judges/kings are greedy for gold,
              > suggesting more that they took bribes, rather than strove to give the
              > best judgment.
              >
              > -Stephanie Budin
              >
              > On 2013-10-23 09:41, Lisbeth Fried wrote:
              > > Thanks Raz,
              > >
              > > That last line had me laughing.
              > >
              > > I do recall an article by Rivka Harris tho to the effect that judges
              > > had to be rich to avoid bribery charges.
              > >
              > > Moses is told to appoint judges throughout all the tribes.
              > >
              > > Probably they weren't paid, except perhaps by the litigants.
              > >
              > > Liz
              > >
              > > Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
              > > Visiting Scholar
              > > Department of Near Eastern Studies
              > > University of Michigan
              > > 202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
              > > Ann Arbor, MI 48104
              > > www.lisbethfried.com [2]
              > >
              > > I sent (too much) rain on one city, and sent no rain on another city;
              > > and still you did not return to me, says YHWH. (Amo 4:7-8 )
              > >
              > > FROM: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] ON BEHALF
              > > OF Raz Kletter
              > > SENT: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 4:16 PM
              > > TO: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              > > SUBJECT: Re: [ANE-2] judges
              > >
              > > Dear Liz,
              > >
              > > In Iron Age Israel and Judah I don't think there were "professional
              > > judges". The King was also judge (1 sam 8:20 [MT], 1 Kings 3:7, 16ff;
              > > etc.) and required no pay for this duty/right. In lower levels local
              > > leaders judged, again not in any sense of full-time profession.
              > > Indirectly it shows also in the (a-typical) Naboth case. In 2 Chr.
              > > 19:5 a reform of putting juges in Judah is ascribed to Jehoshaphat -
              > > missing in 2 Kin gs, it's a late addition by the Chronicler, who
              > > picked it up this Kings' name.
              > > The authority to judge came naturally with the position of ruling.
              > > One could apply to the King in a last resort . Sure there were
              > > bribes,
              > > and honesty of witnesses was often discussed.
              > >
              > > I think ANE sources portray a similar picture, eg Parpola in _Death
              > > in Mesopotamia, _Rencontre Ass. 26 (1980) on the murder of
              > > Sennacherib, when the man asked to be judged by the King.
              > >
              > > Incidentally, since when being wealthy guarantees agains taking
              > > bribes?
              > >
              > > Best,
              > >
              > > Raz Kletter
              > >
              > > 2013/10/22 Lisbeth Fried <lizfried@... [3]>
              > >
              > >> Dear All,
              > >>
              > >> Were judges in antiquity paid? And if so , by whom?
              > >>
              > >> Or were they just supposed to be wealthy so they would not be
              > >> influenced by bribes?
              > >>
              > >> Is there any info on this?
              > >>
              > >> Thanks,
              > >>
              > >> Liz
              > >>
              > >> Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
              > >> Visiting Scholar
              > >> Department of Near Eastern Studies
              > >> University of Michigan
              > >> 202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
              > >> Ann Arbor, MI 48104
              > >> www.lisbethfried.com [1]
              > >>
              > >> I sent (too much) rain on one city, and sent no rain on another
              > >> city; and still you did not return to me, says YHWH. (Amo 4:7-8 )
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Links:
              > > ------
              > > [1] http://www.lisbethfried.com/
              > > [2] http://www.lisbethfried.com
              > > [3] mailto:lizfried@...
              > > [4]
              > >
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ANE-2/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJnMmRmYTVlBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzE3MjM1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTg0MTQ2NwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNzdG5ncwRzdGltZQMxMzgyNTM1NTM5
              > > [5] mailto:ANE-2-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=EmailDelivery:Digest
              > > [6]
              > >
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ANE-2;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNGQyMjJpBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzE3MjM1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTg0MTQ2NwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNocGYEc3RpbWUDMTM4MjUzNTUzOQ--
              > > [7] http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/
              > > [8] mailto:ANE-2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Lisbeth Fried
              Thanks, looks good. Liz From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Blakely Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 10:08 AM To:
              Message 6 of 10 , Oct 23, 2013
              • 0 Attachment

                Thanks, looks good.

                 

                Liz

                From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Blakely
                Sent: Wednesday, October 23, 2013 10:08 AM
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: RE: [ANE-2] judges

                 

                 

                Hi,

                You might find some insight in Clinton Bailey's study of Bedouin Law

                http://yalepress.yale.edu/book.asp?isbn=9780300153248

                Jeffrey A. Blakely
                Madison, WI

                On 23/10/13, sbudin wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > As a possibly interesting side note by way of comparison/contrast,
                > Homer in his description of the Shield of Achilles mentions that a group
                > of kings would hear a case, each would offer a recommendation/judgment,
                > and a payment of two ingots of gold was paid to whichever king made the
                > best judgment, as determined by the crowd. For his own part, Hesiod in
                > the 'Works and Days' complains that judges/kings are greedy for gold,
                > suggesting more that they took bribes, rather than strove to give the
                > best judgment.
                >
                > -Stephanie Budin
                >
                > On 2013-10-23 09:41, Lisbeth Fried wrote:
                > > Thanks Raz,
                > >
                > > That last line had me laughing.
                > >
                > > I do recall an article by Rivka Harris tho to the effect that judges
                > > had to be rich to avoid bribery charges.
                > >
                > > Moses is told to appoint judges throughout all the tribes.
                > >
                > > Probably they weren't paid, except perhaps by the litigants.
                > >
                > > Liz
                > >
                > > Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
                > > Visiting Scholar
                > > Department of Near Eastern Studies
                > > University of Michigan
                > > 202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
                > > Ann Arbor, MI 48104
                > > www.lisbethfried.com [2]
                > >
                > > I sent (too much) rain on one city, and sent no rain on another city;
                > > and still you did not return to me, says YHWH. (Amo 4:7-8 )
                > >
                > > FROM: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] ON BEHALF
                > > OF Raz Kletter
                > > SENT: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 4:16 PM
                > > TO: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                > > SUBJECT: Re: [ANE-2] judges
                > >
                > > Dear Liz,
                > >
                > > In Iron Age Israel and Judah I don't think there were "professional
                > > judges". The King was also judge (1 sam 8:20 [MT], 1 Kings 3:7, 16ff;
                > > etc.) and required no pay for this duty/right. In lower levels local
                > > leaders judged, again not in any sense of full-time profession.
                > > Indirectly it shows also in the (a-typical) Naboth case. In 2 Chr.
                > > 19:5 a reform of putting juges in Judah is ascribed to Jehoshaphat -
                > > missing in 2 Kin gs, it's a late addition by the Chronicler, who
                > > picked it up this Kings' name.
                > > The authority to judge came naturally with the position of ruling.
                > > One could apply to the King in a last resort . Sure there were
                > > bribes,
                > > and honesty of witnesses was often discussed.
                > >
                > > I think ANE sources portray a similar picture, eg Parpola in _Death
                > > in Mesopotamia, _Rencontre Ass. 26 (1980) on the murder of
                > > Sennacherib, when the man asked to be judged by the King.
                > >
                > > Incidentally, since when being wealthy guarantees agains taking
                > > bribes?
                > >
                > > Best,
                > >
                > > Raz Kletter
                > >
                > > 2013/10/22 Lisbeth Fried <lizfried@... [3]>
                > >
                > >> Dear All,
                > >>
                > >> Were judges in antiquity paid? And if so , by whom?
                > >>
                > >> Or were they just supposed to be wealthy so they would not be
                > >> influenced by bribes?
                > >>
                > >> Is there any info on this?
                > >>
                > >> Thanks,
                > >>
                > >> Liz
                > >>
                > >> Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
                > >> Visiting Scholar
                > >> Department of Near Eastern Studies
                > >> University of Michigan
                > >> 202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
                > >> Ann Arbor, MI 48104
                > >> www.lisbethfried.com [1]
                > >>
                > >> I sent (too much) rain on one city, and sent no rain on another
                > >> city; and still you did not return to me, says YHWH. (Amo 4:7-8 )
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Links:
                > > ------
                > > [1] http://www.lisbethfried.com/
                > > [2] http://www.lisbethfried.com
                > > [3] mailto:lizfried@...
                > > [4]
                > >
                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ANE-2/join;_ylc=X3oDMTJnMmRmYTVlBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzE3MjM1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTg0MTQ2NwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNzdG5ncwRzdGltZQMxMzgyNTM1NTM5
                > > [5] mailto:ANE-2-digest@yahoogroups.com?subject=EmailDelivery:Digest
                > > [6]
                > >
                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ANE-2;_ylc=X3oDMTJlNGQyMjJpBF9TAzk3NDc2NTkwBGdycElkAzE3MjM1NTE4BGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNTg0MTQ2NwRzZWMDZnRyBHNsawNocGYEc3RpbWUDMTM4MjUzNTUzOQ--
                > > [7] http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/
                > > [8] mailto:ANE-2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe
                >
                >
                >
                >

              • Gary Greenberg
                In 1Sam Eli s sons were called corrupt because instead of taking the traditional fees (meat portion of one quality) they demanded different fees (better meat
                Message 7 of 10 , Oct 23, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  In 1Sam Eli's sons were called corrupt because instead of taking the traditional fees (meat portion of one quality) they demanded different fees (better meat portion). Also Samuel rode a circuit going town to town, and I suspect he must have received a fee for this service. His sons were also corrupt (presumably like Eli's) and Samuel had to make an "I am not a thief" speech during the debate over kingship. The pro-king faction said the king should administer justice. Presumably, David was also a corrupt judge as Absalom built a strong base attacking David's lack of justice. (I suspect the judicial wisdom of Solomon was a manufactured myth to cover up dynastic corruption.)  I am not saying that any of the stories are true, just tat they are written evidence of some ancient viewpoints on the subject.

                  Gary Greenberg
                  Author of
                  101 Myths of the Bible
                  The Moses Mystery
                   

                   

                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  From: lizfried@...
                  Date: Wed, 23 Oct 2013 09:41:31 -0400
                  Subject: RE: [ANE-2] judges

                   

                  Thanks Raz,

                  That last line had me laughing.

                   

                  I do recall an article by Rivka Harris tho to the effect that judges had to be rich to avoid bribery charges.

                   

                  Moses is told to appoint judges throughout all the tribes.

                  Probably they weren’t paid, except perhaps by the litigants.

                   

                  Liz

                   

                  Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
                  Visiting Scholar
                  Department of Near Eastern Studies
                  University of Michigan
                  202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
                  Ann Arbor, MI 48104
                  www.lisbethfried.com

                  I sent (too much) rain on one city, and sent no rain on another city; and still you did not return to me, says YHWH. (Amo 4:7-8 )

                   

                  From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Raz Kletter
                  Sent: Tuesday, October 22, 2013 4:16 PM
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [ANE-2] judges

                   

                   

                  Dear Liz,

                       In Iron Age Israel and Judah I don't think there were "professional judges". The King was also judge (1 sam 8:20 [MT], 1 Kings 3:7, 16ff; etc.) and required no pay for this duty/right. In lower levels local leaders judged, again not in any sense of full-time profession. Indirectly it shows also in the (a-typical) Naboth case.  In 2 Chr. 19:5 a reform of putting juges in Judah is ascribed to Jehoshaphat - missing in 2 Kings, it's a late addition by the Chronicler, who picked it up this Kings' name.
                      The authority to judge came naturally with the position of ruling. One could apply to the King in a last resort . Sure there were bribes, and honesty of witnesses was often discussed.

                     I think ANE sources portray a similar picture, eg Parpola in Death in Mesopotamia, Rencontre Ass. 26 (1980) on the murder of Sennacherib, when the man asked to be judged by the King.  

                  Incidentally, since when being wealthy guarantees agains taking bribes?  

                  Best,

                  Raz Kletter  

                   

                  2013/10/22 Lisbeth Fried <lizfried@...>

                   

                  Dear All,

                  Were judges in antiquity paid? And if so , by whom?

                  Or were they just supposed to be wealthy so they would not be influenced by bribes?

                  Is there any info on this?

                  Thanks,

                  Liz

                   

                  Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
                  Visiting Scholar
                  Department of Near Eastern Studies
                  University of Michigan
                  202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
                  Ann Arbor, MI 48104
                  www.lisbethfried.com

                  I sent (too much) rain on one city, and sent no rain on another city; and still you did not return to me, says YHWH. (Amo 4:7-8 )

                   

                   


                • Niels Peter Lemche
                  Time to call in the discussion about the Hebrew root š-p-ṭ from the 1960s and 1970s. “Judge” is a modern word and directs us towards a modern
                  Message 8 of 10 , Oct 23, 2013
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                    Time to call in the discussion about the Hebrew root š-p-ṭ from the 1960s and 1970s. “Judge” is a modern word and directs us towards a modern understanding of the word, and of the content of the word. A šopeṭ is much more than a judge, he is a person with some kind of authority (like the suffetes in Carthago). As such a “judge” is chosen because of his ability to act as an arbiter, at least in traditional societies even in the modern Middle East. The development of the root din equals this. Think of the use of medina in different Semitic languages, not confined to law but acquiring the meaning of administration center of some kind, even “city”.

                     

                    Definitely these “administrators” were paid for their services.

                     

                    The opening question should not have been dealing with the payment of the “judge” but with who paid them, private persons or official organizations like states or city authorities.. Corruption, yes, definitely but there is a difference between an accepted level of corruption and a non-accepted system. Coming from one of the few countries in the world with almost no corruption at all (officially) it might be difficult to understand such systems.

                     

                    Niels Peter Lemche

                     

                     

                     

                    Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Gary Greenberg
                    Sendt: 23. oktober 2013 17:03
                    Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    Emne: RE: [ANE-2] judges

                     




                    In 1Sam Eli's sons were called corrupt because instead of taking the traditional fees (meat portion of one quality) they demanded different fees (better meat portion). Also Samuel rode a circuit going town to town, and I suspect he must have received a fee for this service. His sons were also corrupt (presumably like Eli's) and Samuel had to make an "I am not a thief" speech during the debate over kingship. The pro-king faction said the king should administer justice. Presumably, David was also a corrupt judge as Absalom built a strong base attacking David's lack of justice. (I suspect the judicial wisdom of Solomon was a manufactured myth to cover up dynastic corruption.)  I am not saying that any of the stories are true, just tat they are written evidence of some ancient viewpoints on the subject.

                    Gary Greenberg
                    Author of
                    101 Myths of the Bible
                    The Moses Mystery
                     

                     

                  • Clark Whelton
                    ... In Iron Age Israel and Judah I don t think there were professional judges . The King was also judge (1 sam 8:20 [MT], 1 Kings 3:7, 16ff; etc.) and
                    Message 9 of 10 , Oct 23, 2013
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                      >>>>>>>Dear Liz,
                           In Iron Age Israel and Judah I don't think there were "professional judges". The King was also judge (1 sam 8:20 [MT], 1 Kings 3:7, 16ff; etc.) and required no pay for this duty/right. In lower levels local leaders judged, again not in any sense of full-time profession. Indirectly it shows also in the (a-typical) Naboth case.  In 2 Chr. 19:5 a reform of putting juges in Judah is ascribed to Jehoshaphat - missing in 2 Kings, it's a late addition by the Chronicler, who picked it up this Kings' name.
                          The authority to judge came naturally with the position of ruling. One could apply to the King in a last resort . Sure there were bribes, and honesty of witnesses was often discussed.
                         I think ANE sources portray a similar picture, eg Parpola in Death in Mesopotamia, Rencontre Ass. 26 (1980) on the murder of Sennacherib, when the man asked to be judged by the King.   Incidentally, since when being wealthy guarantees again taking bribes? 
                      Best,  Raz Kletter 
                       
                       
                       
                      Raz is right on target.  The roots of professional jurisprudence are on
                      display every day in places like upstate New York, where local judges
                      are not required to have law degrees.  In fact, they’re not required to
                      have educations of any kind.
                       
                      Being a pal of the king (i.e. the local political leader) is all that’s
                      required for appointment to the bench.  A friend who made the
                      mistake of taking a dispute to his local upstate NY court was stunned to discover
                      the judge’s regular job was “school bus driver.”  I doubt things were
                      much different in the ANE.
                       
                       
                      Clark Whelton
                      New York
                    • marc.cooper
                      Interesting question. There were local and royal judges in Babylonia. The royal judges may have been paid professionals. But see: The Career of a
                      Message 10 of 10 , Oct 23, 2013
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                        Interesting question. There were local and royal judges in Babylonia. The royal judges may have been paid professionals. But see:

                        The Career of a Neo-Babylonian Court Scribe
                        Shalom E. Holtz

                        Journal of Cuneiform Studies , Vol. 60, (2008), pp. 81-85 


                        It doesn't answer your question directly, but it does deal with court personnel and might be helpful.


                        Marc Cooper

                        Missouri State



                        ---In ane-2@yahoogroups.com, <lizfried@...> wrote:

                        Dear All,

                        Were judges in antiquity paid? And if so , by whom?

                        Or were they just supposed to be wealthy so they would not be influenced by bribes?

                        Is there any info on this?

                        Thanks,

                        Liz

                         

                        Lisbeth S. Fried, Ph.D.
                        Visiting Scholar
                        Department of Near Eastern Studies
                        University of Michigan
                        202 S. Thayer -- Room 4111
                        Ann Arbor, MI 48104
                        www.lisbethfried.com

                        I sent (too much) rain on one city, and sent no rain on another city; and still you did not return to me, says YHWH. (Amo 4:7-8 )

                         

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