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SV: [ANE-2] Re: Egyptian Background for Hebrew Scholars

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  • Niels Peter Lemche
    Dear Jim, Not for long, I hope. It is rather typical of conservative scholarship to claim an expertise for itself which it says is not shared by critical
    Message 1 of 25 , Jul 24, 2013
      Dear Jim,

      Not for long, I hope.

      It is rather typical of conservative scholarship to claim an expertise for itself which it says is not shared by critical scholars. James Barr has a chapter on this in his Fundamentalism from 1977.

      Of course not all OT scholars are Egyptologists, neither are all of them Assyriologists or Hittitologist (or whatever it is called). There are help for that, as there are experts to ask. As my professor in Arabic said: You have to choose between Arabic and Akkadian, both huge subjects. It is impossible to master both.

      Gone are the days of Eduard Meyer who regretted that he was too old to learn Hittite. Otherwise, he mastered every ancient Oriental and classical language known in his time. As far as OT studies go, he is reckoned a historical-critical scholar of the old German school.

      Besides, quite a few OT scholars know Egyptian, and quite a few know Akkadian, so this mail is simply ridiculous and misinformed. It tries to open a bogus discussion. I should perhaps only mention one of the absolute leading critical scholars, John Van Seters whose first book was devoted to the Hyksos. In Egyptology he was probably a classmate of Redford.


      Niels Peter Lemche

      PS: My copy of Gardiner's grammar has the accession date of May 1962. I was sixteen at that time. First year in the classical Gymnasium with Greek, Latin, English, German, and French.

      -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
      Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Jim West
      Sendt: den 23 juli 2013 22:24
      Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Emne: Re: [ANE-2] Re: Egyptian Background for Hebrew Scholars

      how long are we going to have to endure this? can't we give this chap a red card and move on with the game?

      On 7/21/2013 5:05 PM, Douglas Petrovich wrote:
      > Niels,
      > Thanks for the fascinating reply. I only wish you had spent a bit of your time interacting with my actual post. It was one of the more important posts I have ever made, frankly.
      > I am not one for associating individuals who pass through a given institution with all of the views of their faculty members, so I truly do not feel comfortable stating what is or is not representative of the Univ. of Toronto, even in the NMC Dept. You probably know where Redford stands on ancient Israel, of course.
      > Thankfully, my advisor, the president of ASOR, is both tolerant and embracing of those with diverse backgrounds and divergent viewpoints. For my money, this is how scholarship should be: never marginalizing those of other persuasions or offering all of the perks to the ring-kissers.
      > I am not sure that I would call ANE-2 ‘the world’, but I find your accusation that I told one or two of the list moderators that they do not know what they are talking about to be not only unfair but—above all—absolutely inaccurate. I would be happy to discuss this in greater depth, whether on- or offlist. It would have to begin with direct quotes.
      > I have never treated any of the moderators with anything less than proper respect, even though I have not always been treated with the same. And certainly respect and disputation can co-exist peacefully.
      > I am not so sure that Kitchen feels the kind of disdain for critical biblical scholars that you say he does. Are you certain about this, or speculating? I certainly can say for myself that I have said or even thought that every/any critical biblical scholar is an unqualified fool. For that reason alone I would never say or think that any of your writings is worthless. Never.
      > Once a month, I sit in a room with a group of profs and students from U of T and York U who express exceedingly divergent views than mine on topics related to biblical history. This is a study group that focuses on ancient Israel. I rarely have the floor. Yet I listen to one critical biblical scholar’s opinion/perspective after another.
      > I enjoy learning everything I can, although I might be just as qualified to take the floor myself at any moment and not give it back. I am an insatiable learner, Niels, but I was taught to be a critical learner. And thus I am. I just have so much to say in my articles and have so many people to quote that I cannot always quote every conceivable scholar, critical or conservative. You haven’t read enough of my articles, though, if you think I haven’t interacted with critical scholars at all.
      > As for why I am not studying under Kitchen, well, he is a phenomenal Egyptologist, and my ability within the world of Egyptology—though perhaps not insignificant—probably never will even approach his. Even you should appreciate how amazing of an Egyptologist he is (that is, if you truly understand the field). I am applying for a post-doc under/with an Egyptologist, though.
      > However, I do not take Kitchen to be anywhere near exemplary in his grasp of biblical exegesis, which—among other things—has led him to the entirely wrong era for the exodus. Because of this, he has lost lots of time and energy that would have been better if redirected elsewhere. Kitchen is not the interdisciplinarian that some others are, despite his many positive contributions to biblical studies (which are not few). With my strong background in biblical exegesis, I was not ready to settle for less than precision in this area. Kitchen is off of the radar in this area, unfortunately.
      > While you may see me as ‘just a PhD student’, which is fine, I have 10 years experience teaching seminary students, a seminary that I founded in Siberia (serving as academic dean) and turned over to Russians whom we had trained. Because of a small faculty, I taught 25 different undergrad and grad courses in three programs. As a professor, you should appreciate the demands that such a teaching load would present . . . even more so in a vastly foreign culture and with a different language. So in truth, I am not your average PhD student, either in age or in background, for whatever it’s worth.
      > I am not sure just what to say about your response to my published articles, except that I am honored you read them. Certainly it is disappointing to hear that you consider 1 or more to be worthless, but this is within your right. I meant what I said about how I will be dragging you into my discipline of expertise, though, whether you squawk at this now or not.
      > The nature of my book simply will necessitate it, because it will be something you absolutely cannot ignore. Now, it would be all the easier for me if you were to ignore it, but the Tel Dan inscription will seem like child’s play to you when the book comes out. The importance of the latter will dwarf the importance of the former, both to me, to you, and many others.
      > Well, if you will be 98 in 30 years, perhaps we are going to have to arrange an earlier time. Not many of us get to live that long. I most certainly will bring flowers when I come, along with whatever your favorite chocolate is. Of course, we will have to wait until the book comes out to see if you are still willing to set a date and have me come.
      > And if you really want to live on the edge, you can always invite me to speak to your students (w/o remuneration, of course). I would even let them raz me in a Q & A session, just to bring a smile to your face. I will be disappointed if my visit does not bring a smile to your face, at least once. And besides, I would be like a free lab rat to you.
      > Until then, I will continue to enjoy any dialogue that we get to experience, Niels, even if you have shut it down for this discussion. One thing is for sure: you made sure that I no longer have the opportunity to keep a low profile.
      > Yours,
      > Douglas Petrovich
      > Toronto
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > ------------------------------------
      > Yahoo! Groups Links

      Jim West, ThD
      Pastor, Petros Baptist Church
      Adjunct Prof. of Biblical Studies, Quartz Hill School of Theology


      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • Michael F. Lane
      Dear ANE-listers, I would be most grateful if someone could provide me with a list of works *detailing* 1) Senusret II s irrigation and flood-management
      Message 2 of 25 , Jul 28, 2013
        Dear ANE-listers,

        I would be most grateful if someone could provide me with a list of works
        1) Senusret II's irrigation and flood-management project in the Fayyum, and
        2) Tudhaliya IV's presumably similar, although much later, project near
        Alaca Höyük.

        In particular, I am interested in expert engineering reconstructions,
        including anything diagrammatic.

        With best regards,

        Michael F. Lane
        University of Maryland Baltimore County

        Prof.. Michael Franklin Lane
        Co-Director, AROURA
        Ancient Studies Department
        University of Maryland, Baltimore County
        Fine Arts Building, Room 452
        1000 Hilltop Circle
        Baltimore, MD 21250, USA
        Tel. +1-410-455-2979 / Fax +1-410-455-1660
        Skype: barrenador
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