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Re: methodological issues at qeiyafa

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  • Douglas Petrovich
    Dear Raz, You are quite welcome. OK, it is a deal, then. We will agree on 20.7.33. In fact, I will come to Helsinki, and you can host me. We will have ‘a tea
    Message 1 of 25 , Jul 20 11:19 AM
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      Dear Raz,

      You are quite welcome. OK, it is a deal, then. We will agree on 20.7.33. In fact, I will come to Helsinki, and you can host me. We will have ‘a tea drink’, which was one of my favorite parts of life in Russia, and maybe you can teach me some wonderful features of Finnish cultural and life. Я буду ждать этого. Just remember that sweets are an important part of a tea-drink, so I will expect that.

      And perhaps I can stop by to see NPL in Copenhagen, if he will take me in as a guess. Having a good face-to-face conversation with him is still a high priority on my bucket list. We all can bury any hatchets that may have accumulated, and we can have a delightful, fresh start. I will mark my calendar.

      With best regards to you,

      Douglas Petrovich
      Toronto

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Douglas Petrovich
      Dear List, The recent discussion has brought one thing to the surface that simply must be reinforced (or shouted from the rooftops?). Today, at least to my
      Message 2 of 25 , Jul 21 8:06 AM
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        Dear List,

        The recent discussion has brought one thing to the surface that simply must be reinforced (or shouted from the rooftops?). Today, at least to my knowledge, there is a virtual dearth of epigraphers of Semitic languages and Hebrew (language) scholars doing work in morphology and linguistics who actually have a background in Egyptian language.

        Frankly, this is nothing short of a tragedy. Sure, there are exceptions. For example, the top living candidate on this list is probably James Hoch, who’s Semitic Words in Egyptian Texts of the New Kingdom and Third Intermediate Period is a masterful piece of work, as is his Middle Egyptian Grammar.

        His grasp on the interconnections between Hebrew, Egyptian, and other related languages is nothing short of astounding. If we are going to get anywhere in the future with Hebrew of the 2nd millennium BC, it is only going to come with scholars who take Egyptian language far more seriously as a requisite field of study.

        Yours,

        Douglas Petrovich, PhD Candidate
        University of Toronto, NMC Department
        http://utoronto.academia.edu/DouglasPetrovich

        From: Douglas Petrovich
        Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 2:19 PM
        To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [ANE-2] Re: methodological issues at qeiyafa


        Dear Raz,

        You are quite welcome. OK, it is a deal, then. We will agree on 20.7.33. In fact, I will come to Helsinki, and you can host me. We will have ‘a tea drink’, which was one of my favorite parts of life in Russia, and maybe you can teach me some wonderful features of Finnish cultural and life. Я буду ждать этого. Just remember that sweets are an important part of a tea-drink, so I will expect that.

        And perhaps I can stop by to see NPL in Copenhagen, if he will take me in as a guess. Having a good face-to-face conversation with him is still a high priority on my bucket list. We all can bury any hatchets that may have accumulated, and we can have a delightful, fresh start. I will mark my calendar.

        With best regards to you,

        Douglas Petrovich
        Toronto

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Niels Peter Lemche
        At least this time you provided a full signature. I just speculated about the Toronto address, the home of scholars like Donald Redford (now at Penstate) and
        Message 3 of 25 , Jul 21 12:42 PM
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          At least this time you provided a full signature. I just speculated about the Toronto address, the home of scholars like Donald Redford (now at Penstate) and John Van Seters. If you are representing present studies at Toronto, a lot has changed, indeed.

          You have so far succeeded in telling the world that one or two of the moderators on this list do not know what they are talking about, and therefore are unqualified. The same includes a professional archaeologist. You have taking a position previous belonging of the most conservative part of biblical studies as represented by the Egyptologist Kenneth Kitchen (why are you not in Liverpool?). Not bad for a ph.d.-student, but I cannot recommend that you go on along this line. Kitchen of course thinks that every critical biblical scholar is an unqualified fool, and therefore he is not part of the scholarly discussion. Your articles found when googling you say a lot. No modern critical voice allowed. The Hazor article is simply useless. The Sargon / Nimrud article is dominated by an obsession for history, and just as much out of tune with modern critical discussion.

          The politics of accusing critical scholars for being incompetent belongs to one of the favourite tactics of conservative scholarship trying by being erudite to gain respect for its own irrelevant positions. I can recommend subscribers to consult my article "Conservative Scholarship on the Move," Scandinavian Journal of the Old Testament 19 (2005), 203-252. A compressed version was published as "Conservative Scholarship—Critical Scholarship: Or How Did We Get Caught by This Bogus Discussion: On Behalf of the Dever-Davies Exchange," The Bible and Interpretation http://www.bibleinterp.com/index.htm, 2003.

          Raz has closed down his part of the discussion. I will do the same. If you want to pass by Copenhagen in 30 years, remember to bring flowers. I will be 98.

          Niels Peter Lemche



          -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
          Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Douglas Petrovich
          Sendt: den 21 juli 2013 17:07
          Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Emne: [ANE-2] Egyptian Background for Hebrew Scholars

          Dear List,

          The recent discussion has brought one thing to the surface that simply must be reinforced (or shouted from the rooftops?). Today, at least to my knowledge, there is a virtual dearth of epigraphers of Semitic languages and Hebrew (language) scholars doing work in morphology and linguistics who actually have a background in Egyptian language.

          Frankly, this is nothing short of a tragedy. Sure, there are exceptions. For example, the top living candidate on this list is probably James Hoch, who’s Semitic Words in Egyptian Texts of the New Kingdom and Third Intermediate Period is a masterful piece of work, as is his Middle Egyptian Grammar.

          His grasp on the interconnections between Hebrew, Egyptian, and other related languages is nothing short of astounding. If we are going to get anywhere in the future with Hebrew of the 2nd millennium BC, it is only going to come with scholars who take Egyptian language far more seriously as a requisite field of study.

          Yours,

          Douglas Petrovich, PhD Candidate
          University of Toronto, NMC Department
          http://utoronto.academia.edu/DouglasPetrovich

          From: Douglas Petrovich
          Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 2:19 PM
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [ANE-2] Re: methodological issues at qeiyafa


          Dear Raz,

          You are quite welcome. OK, it is a deal, then. We will agree on 20.7.33. In fact, I will come to Helsinki, and you can host me. We will have ‘a tea drink’, which was one of my favorite parts of life in Russia, and maybe you can teach me some wonderful features of Finnish cultural and life. Я буду ждать этого. Just remember that sweets are an important part of a tea-drink, so I will expect that.

          And perhaps I can stop by to see NPL in Copenhagen, if he will take me in as a guess. Having a good face-to-face conversation with him is still a high priority on my bucket list. We all can bury any hatchets that may have accumulated, and we can have a delightful, fresh start. I will mark my calendar.

          With best regards to you,

          Douglas Petrovich
          Toronto

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • Douglas Petrovich
          Niels, Thanks for the fascinating reply. I only wish you had spent a bit of your time interacting with my actual post. It was one of the more important posts I
          Message 4 of 25 , Jul 21 2:05 PM
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            Niels,

            Thanks for the fascinating reply. I only wish you had spent a bit of your time interacting with my actual post. It was one of the more important posts I have ever made, frankly.

            I am not one for associating individuals who pass through a given institution with all of the views of their faculty members, so I truly do not feel comfortable stating what is or is not representative of the Univ. of Toronto, even in the NMC Dept. You probably know where Redford stands on ancient Israel, of course.

            Thankfully, my advisor, the president of ASOR, is both tolerant and embracing of those with diverse backgrounds and divergent viewpoints. For my money, this is how scholarship should be: never marginalizing those of other persuasions or offering all of the perks to the ring-kissers.

            I am not sure that I would call ANE-2 ‘the world’, but I find your accusation that I told one or two of the list moderators that they do not know what they are talking about to be not only unfair but—above all—absolutely inaccurate. I would be happy to discuss this in greater depth, whether on- or offlist. It would have to begin with direct quotes.

            I have never treated any of the moderators with anything less than proper respect, even though I have not always been treated with the same. And certainly respect and disputation can co-exist peacefully.

            I am not so sure that Kitchen feels the kind of disdain for critical biblical scholars that you say he does. Are you certain about this, or speculating? I certainly can say for myself that I have said or even thought that every/any critical biblical scholar is an unqualified fool. For that reason alone I would never say or think that any of your writings is worthless. Never.

            Once a month, I sit in a room with a group of profs and students from U of T and York U who express exceedingly divergent views than mine on topics related to biblical history. This is a study group that focuses on ancient Israel. I rarely have the floor. Yet I listen to one critical biblical scholar’s opinion/perspective after another.

            I enjoy learning everything I can, although I might be just as qualified to take the floor myself at any moment and not give it back. I am an insatiable learner, Niels, but I was taught to be a critical learner. And thus I am. I just have so much to say in my articles and have so many people to quote that I cannot always quote every conceivable scholar, critical or conservative. You haven’t read enough of my articles, though, if you think I haven’t interacted with critical scholars at all.

            As for why I am not studying under Kitchen, well, he is a phenomenal Egyptologist, and my ability within the world of Egyptology—though perhaps not insignificant—probably never will even approach his. Even you should appreciate how amazing of an Egyptologist he is (that is, if you truly understand the field). I am applying for a post-doc under/with an Egyptologist, though.

            However, I do not take Kitchen to be anywhere near exemplary in his grasp of biblical exegesis, which—among other things—has led him to the entirely wrong era for the exodus. Because of this, he has lost lots of time and energy that would have been better if redirected elsewhere. Kitchen is not the interdisciplinarian that some others are, despite his many positive contributions to biblical studies (which are not few). With my strong background in biblical exegesis, I was not ready to settle for less than precision in this area. Kitchen is off of the radar in this area, unfortunately.

            While you may see me as ‘just a PhD student’, which is fine, I have 10 years experience teaching seminary students, a seminary that I founded in Siberia (serving as academic dean) and turned over to Russians whom we had trained. Because of a small faculty, I taught 25 different undergrad and grad courses in three programs. As a professor, you should appreciate the demands that such a teaching load would present . . . even more so in a vastly foreign culture and with a different language. So in truth, I am not your average PhD student, either in age or in background, for whatever it’s worth.

            I am not sure just what to say about your response to my published articles, except that I am honored you read them. Certainly it is disappointing to hear that you consider 1 or more to be worthless, but this is within your right. I meant what I said about how I will be dragging you into my discipline of expertise, though, whether you squawk at this now or not.

            The nature of my book simply will necessitate it, because it will be something you absolutely cannot ignore. Now, it would be all the easier for me if you were to ignore it, but the Tel Dan inscription will seem like child’s play to you when the book comes out. The importance of the latter will dwarf the importance of the former, both to me, to you, and many others.

            Well, if you will be 98 in 30 years, perhaps we are going to have to arrange an earlier time. Not many of us get to live that long. I most certainly will bring flowers when I come, along with whatever your favorite chocolate is. Of course, we will have to wait until the book comes out to see if you are still willing to set a date and have me come.

            And if you really want to live on the edge, you can always invite me to speak to your students (w/o remuneration, of course). I would even let them raz me in a Q & A session, just to bring a smile to your face. I will be disappointed if my visit does not bring a smile to your face, at least once. And besides, I would be like a free lab rat to you.

            Until then, I will continue to enjoy any dialogue that we get to experience, Niels, even if you have shut it down for this discussion. One thing is for sure: you made sure that I no longer have the opportunity to keep a low profile.

            Yours,

            Douglas Petrovich
            Toronto

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Peter van der Veen
            Dear Doug, I decided not to get involved in the discussion. You brought up many different points, which to my view a) were not directly related to the topic,
            Message 5 of 25 , Jul 22 12:51 AM
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              Dear Doug,

              I decided not to get involved in the discussion. You brought up many different points, which to my view a) were not directly related to the topic, b) were just scratching the surface (all these points demand serious study and cannot be dealt with just flimsely), c) the tone of the conversation was not appropriate for a scholarly exchange. Raz Kletter, whom I respect greatly as a scholar as he has written some very fine papers and books, did not deserve the way he was treated. But I shall leave it at that, as I agree with Raz and Niels-Peter that it is better not to continue the discussion.

              But as I am the person who called for reservation on the "Davidic palace at Qeijafa", I want to say the following. This will be the last response from my side to the discussion.

              The only point I wish to make is the one on the Philistines (here you mentioned my name again).

              Now naturally the Qeijafa ostracon - to which I did not refer at all - is not written in an Aegean dialect. On that I agree. It seems to clearly be a West Semitic inscription, still it has not been proved that it is Hebrew. Be this as it may, it may turn out to be Hebrew and yes there are interesting indications that it could be Hebrew. I liked Gershon Galil's translation with whom I discussed these points in detail at some stage.

              BUT: This still doesn't make Qeijafa Israelite. Again it may have been Israelite, but the pottery repertoire is surely one that belongs to the Shephelah region and whether or not the site was Israelite or Philistine, it surely was a border town with the coming and going of different people groups.

              I doubt honestly that Philistines at this stage would have spoken Aegean or even less likely would have written their documents in an Indo-European language. Likely (and this has been discussed by several scholars) the percentage of true Aegeans must have been small among the Philistines. The Philistines proper were presumably the leading lot, the seranim, the elite class. The population was probably mostly local Canaanite. The scribes may have been trained by Egyptians or by those who carried on the Egyptian scribal traditions when the "Philistines" came to represent the Egyptian in the coastal plain. As we know the Bronze Age scribes were fluent in different languages (including Akkadian) and the language of Canaan was surely West Semitic. So why shouldn't even the Philistines have used the West Semitic dialects for their local administration?

              Now I am not saying that the Qeijafa ostracon is Philistine/Canaanite. I much prefer that it is Israelite. But we do not know for sure! As long as we do not know for sure, this should make us humbler and more careful in dealing with views expressed by colleagues.

              By the way what in the world makes us think that David had a palace at Qeijafa? Starting with the Old Testament, I find no evidence that would encourage such speculations at all.

              To many uncertaintities there ....

              Best wishes
              Peter van der Veen

              Johannes Gutenberg University of Mainz

              Am 20.07.2013 um 13:48 schrieb Douglas Petrovich:


              > Instead, I merely
              > was addressing the possibility that Peter had 'put it out there' (regardless
              > of his view on it).



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • R. Lehmann
              Dear Douglas Petrovich, normally I am not interested to tamper with too much onlist discussions, and Nils-Peter and Raz already had said (almost) the
              Message 6 of 25 , Jul 22 5:02 AM
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                Dear Douglas Petrovich,
                normally I am not interested to tamper with too much onlist
                discussions, and Nils-Peter and Raz already had said (almost) the
                necessary. Because bad scholarly manners deserve a rebuke, just a
                short additional note from my hand:
                As for the "virtual dearth" you arrogantly shout from the rooftops,
                take note that Hoch's work is nothing that really would do you any
                favour if taken seriously into scholarly discussion. You may freely
                download the most recent reception of Hoch by an epigrapher and
                Hebraist here:
                http://www.hebraistik.uni-mainz.de/Dateien/27_30_22_26.pdf
                (togehter with several other papers - if ever you read German).

                Reinhard G.Lehmann

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                ¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨¨
                Dr. Reinhard G. Lehmann, Academic Director
                Research Unit on Ancient Hebrew & Epigraphy
                FB 01/ Faculty of Protestant Theology
                Johannes Gutenberg-University of Mainz
                D-55099 Mainz
                Germany
                lehmann@...
                http://www.hebraistik.uni-mainz.de/eng
                11th Mainz International Colloquium on Ancient Hebrew (MICAH) 2013:
                http://www.micah.hebraistik.uni-mainz.de/204.php





                Am 21.07.2013 um 17:06 schrieb Douglas Petrovich:

                > Dear List,
                >
                > The recent discussion has brought one thing to the surface that
                > simply must be reinforced (or shouted from the rooftops?). Today, at
                > least to my knowledge, there is a virtual dearth of epigraphers of
                > Semitic languages and Hebrew (language) scholars doing work in
                > morphology and linguistics who actually have a background in
                > Egyptian language.
                >
                > Frankly, this is nothing short of a tragedy. Sure, there are
                > exceptions. For example, the top living candidate on this list is
                > probably James Hoch, who’s Semitic Words in Egyptian Texts of the
                > New Kingdom and Third Intermediate Period is a masterful piece of
                > work, as is his Middle Egyptian Grammar.
                >
                > His grasp on the interconnections between Hebrew, Egyptian, and
                > other related languages is nothing short of astounding. If we are
                > going to get anywhere in the future with Hebrew of the 2nd
                > millennium BC, it is only going to come with scholars who take
                > Egyptian language far more seriously as a requisite field of study.
                >
                > Yours,
                >
                > Douglas Petrovich, PhD Candidate
                > University of Toronto, NMC Department
                > http://utoronto.academia.edu/DouglasPetrovich
                >
                > From: Douglas Petrovich
                > Sent: Saturday, July 20, 2013 2:19 PM
                > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: methodological issues at qeiyafa
                >
                > Dear Raz,
                >
                > You are quite welcome. OK, it is a deal, then. We will agree on
                > 20.7.33. In fact, I will come to Helsinki, and you can host me. We
                > will have ‘a tea drink’, which was one of my favorite parts of
                > life in Russia, and maybe you can teach me some wonderful features
                > of Finnish cultural and life. Я буду ждать этого. Just
                > remember that sweets are an important part of a tea-drink, so I will
                > expect that.
                >
                > And perhaps I can stop by to see NPL in Copenhagen, if he will take
                > me in as a guess. Having a good face-to-face conversation with him
                > is still a high priority on my bucket list. We all can bury any
                > hatchets that may have accumulated, and we can have a delightful,
                > fresh start. I will mark my calendar.
                >
                > With best regards to you,
                >
                > Douglas Petrovich
                > Toronto
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
                Dear Mr Petrovich, neither Rainey s ‘Egyptian Evidence for Semitic Linguistics’, Israel Oriental Studies 18, 1998, pp. 431-453, nor J. F. Quack s review,
                Message 7 of 25 , Jul 22 11:23 AM
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                  Dear Mr Petrovich,

                  neither Rainey's ‘Egyptian Evidence for Semitic Linguistics’,
                  Israel Oriental Studies 18, 1998, pp. 431-453, nor J. F. Quack's review,
                  Zeitschrift der Deutschen Morgenländischen Gesellschaft 146, 1996, pp.
                  507–514, were overly enthusiastic about Hoch's monograph. Indeed it is
                  definitively not as authoritative and reliable as its flashy (you will
                  say: impressive) layout would have one believe. Just look at 'Semitic
                  Words in Egyptian Texts of the New Kingdom and Third Intermediate
                  Period', pp. 127 n°163, 170-171 n°227, or 185-186 n°249-250, for
                  instances where suppression of inconvenient evidence and (much) too free
                  a hand in etymological speculation have the discussion collapse. This is
                  not to disparage a great scholar, but throwing off Hoch in the face of
                  Prof. Kletter while lecturing the entire list is unbecoming.

                  All the best,

                  J.-F. Nardelli
                  Université de Provence
                • Jim West
                  how long are we going to have to endure this? can t we give this chap a red card and move on with the game? ... -- +++++++ Jim West, ThD Pastor, Petros
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jul 23 1:24 PM
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                    how long are we going to have to endure this? can't we give this chap a
                    red card and move on with the game?


                    On 7/21/2013 5:05 PM, Douglas Petrovich wrote:
                    > Niels,
                    >
                    > Thanks for the fascinating reply. I only wish you had spent a bit of your time interacting with my actual post. It was one of the more important posts I have ever made, frankly.
                    >
                    > I am not one for associating individuals who pass through a given institution with all of the views of their faculty members, so I truly do not feel comfortable stating what is or is not representative of the Univ. of Toronto, even in the NMC Dept. You probably know where Redford stands on ancient Israel, of course.
                    >
                    > Thankfully, my advisor, the president of ASOR, is both tolerant and embracing of those with diverse backgrounds and divergent viewpoints. For my money, this is how scholarship should be: never marginalizing those of other persuasions or offering all of the perks to the ring-kissers.
                    >
                    > I am not sure that I would call ANE-2 ‘the world’, but I find your accusation that I told one or two of the list moderators that they do not know what they are talking about to be not only unfair but—above all—absolutely inaccurate. I would be happy to discuss this in greater depth, whether on- or offlist. It would have to begin with direct quotes.
                    >
                    > I have never treated any of the moderators with anything less than proper respect, even though I have not always been treated with the same. And certainly respect and disputation can co-exist peacefully.
                    >
                    > I am not so sure that Kitchen feels the kind of disdain for critical biblical scholars that you say he does. Are you certain about this, or speculating? I certainly can say for myself that I have said or even thought that every/any critical biblical scholar is an unqualified fool. For that reason alone I would never say or think that any of your writings is worthless. Never.
                    >
                    > Once a month, I sit in a room with a group of profs and students from U of T and York U who express exceedingly divergent views than mine on topics related to biblical history. This is a study group that focuses on ancient Israel. I rarely have the floor. Yet I listen to one critical biblical scholar’s opinion/perspective after another.
                    >
                    > I enjoy learning everything I can, although I might be just as qualified to take the floor myself at any moment and not give it back. I am an insatiable learner, Niels, but I was taught to be a critical learner. And thus I am. I just have so much to say in my articles and have so many people to quote that I cannot always quote every conceivable scholar, critical or conservative. You haven’t read enough of my articles, though, if you think I haven’t interacted with critical scholars at all.
                    >
                    > As for why I am not studying under Kitchen, well, he is a phenomenal Egyptologist, and my ability within the world of Egyptology—though perhaps not insignificant—probably never will even approach his. Even you should appreciate how amazing of an Egyptologist he is (that is, if you truly understand the field). I am applying for a post-doc under/with an Egyptologist, though.
                    >
                    > However, I do not take Kitchen to be anywhere near exemplary in his grasp of biblical exegesis, which—among other things—has led him to the entirely wrong era for the exodus. Because of this, he has lost lots of time and energy that would have been better if redirected elsewhere. Kitchen is not the interdisciplinarian that some others are, despite his many positive contributions to biblical studies (which are not few). With my strong background in biblical exegesis, I was not ready to settle for less than precision in this area. Kitchen is off of the radar in this area, unfortunately.
                    >
                    > While you may see me as ‘just a PhD student’, which is fine, I have 10 years experience teaching seminary students, a seminary that I founded in Siberia (serving as academic dean) and turned over to Russians whom we had trained. Because of a small faculty, I taught 25 different undergrad and grad courses in three programs. As a professor, you should appreciate the demands that such a teaching load would present . . . even more so in a vastly foreign culture and with a different language. So in truth, I am not your average PhD student, either in age or in background, for whatever it’s worth.
                    >
                    > I am not sure just what to say about your response to my published articles, except that I am honored you read them. Certainly it is disappointing to hear that you consider 1 or more to be worthless, but this is within your right. I meant what I said about how I will be dragging you into my discipline of expertise, though, whether you squawk at this now or not.
                    >
                    > The nature of my book simply will necessitate it, because it will be something you absolutely cannot ignore. Now, it would be all the easier for me if you were to ignore it, but the Tel Dan inscription will seem like child’s play to you when the book comes out. The importance of the latter will dwarf the importance of the former, both to me, to you, and many others.
                    >
                    > Well, if you will be 98 in 30 years, perhaps we are going to have to arrange an earlier time. Not many of us get to live that long. I most certainly will bring flowers when I come, along with whatever your favorite chocolate is. Of course, we will have to wait until the book comes out to see if you are still willing to set a date and have me come.
                    >
                    > And if you really want to live on the edge, you can always invite me to speak to your students (w/o remuneration, of course). I would even let them raz me in a Q & A session, just to bring a smile to your face. I will be disappointed if my visit does not bring a smile to your face, at least once. And besides, I would be like a free lab rat to you.
                    >
                    > Until then, I will continue to enjoy any dialogue that we get to experience, Niels, even if you have shut it down for this discussion. One thing is for sure: you made sure that I no longer have the opportunity to keep a low profile.
                    >
                    > Yours,
                    >
                    > Douglas Petrovich
                    > Toronto
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    --
                    +++++++
                    Jim West, ThD
                    Pastor, Petros Baptist Church
                    Adjunct Prof. of Biblical Studies, Quartz Hill School of Theology
                  • Niels Peter Lemche
                    Dear Jim, Not for long, I hope. It is rather typical of conservative scholarship to claim an expertise for itself which it says is not shared by critical
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jul 24 2:56 AM
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                      Dear Jim,

                      Not for long, I hope.

                      It is rather typical of conservative scholarship to claim an expertise for itself which it says is not shared by critical scholars. James Barr has a chapter on this in his Fundamentalism from 1977.

                      Of course not all OT scholars are Egyptologists, neither are all of them Assyriologists or Hittitologist (or whatever it is called). There are help for that, as there are experts to ask. As my professor in Arabic said: You have to choose between Arabic and Akkadian, both huge subjects. It is impossible to master both.

                      Gone are the days of Eduard Meyer who regretted that he was too old to learn Hittite. Otherwise, he mastered every ancient Oriental and classical language known in his time. As far as OT studies go, he is reckoned a historical-critical scholar of the old German school.

                      Besides, quite a few OT scholars know Egyptian, and quite a few know Akkadian, so this mail is simply ridiculous and misinformed. It tries to open a bogus discussion. I should perhaps only mention one of the absolute leading critical scholars, John Van Seters whose first book was devoted to the Hyksos. In Egyptology he was probably a classmate of Redford.

                      Dixi

                      Niels Peter Lemche


                      PS: My copy of Gardiner's grammar has the accession date of May 1962. I was sixteen at that time. First year in the classical Gymnasium with Greek, Latin, English, German, and French.




                      -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                      Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Jim West
                      Sendt: den 23 juli 2013 22:24
                      Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                      Emne: Re: [ANE-2] Re: Egyptian Background for Hebrew Scholars

                      how long are we going to have to endure this? can't we give this chap a red card and move on with the game?


                      On 7/21/2013 5:05 PM, Douglas Petrovich wrote:
                      > Niels,
                      >
                      > Thanks for the fascinating reply. I only wish you had spent a bit of your time interacting with my actual post. It was one of the more important posts I have ever made, frankly.
                      >
                      > I am not one for associating individuals who pass through a given institution with all of the views of their faculty members, so I truly do not feel comfortable stating what is or is not representative of the Univ. of Toronto, even in the NMC Dept. You probably know where Redford stands on ancient Israel, of course.
                      >
                      > Thankfully, my advisor, the president of ASOR, is both tolerant and embracing of those with diverse backgrounds and divergent viewpoints. For my money, this is how scholarship should be: never marginalizing those of other persuasions or offering all of the perks to the ring-kissers.
                      >
                      > I am not sure that I would call ANE-2 ‘the world’, but I find your accusation that I told one or two of the list moderators that they do not know what they are talking about to be not only unfair but—above all—absolutely inaccurate. I would be happy to discuss this in greater depth, whether on- or offlist. It would have to begin with direct quotes.
                      >
                      > I have never treated any of the moderators with anything less than proper respect, even though I have not always been treated with the same. And certainly respect and disputation can co-exist peacefully.
                      >
                      > I am not so sure that Kitchen feels the kind of disdain for critical biblical scholars that you say he does. Are you certain about this, or speculating? I certainly can say for myself that I have said or even thought that every/any critical biblical scholar is an unqualified fool. For that reason alone I would never say or think that any of your writings is worthless. Never.
                      >
                      > Once a month, I sit in a room with a group of profs and students from U of T and York U who express exceedingly divergent views than mine on topics related to biblical history. This is a study group that focuses on ancient Israel. I rarely have the floor. Yet I listen to one critical biblical scholar’s opinion/perspective after another.
                      >
                      > I enjoy learning everything I can, although I might be just as qualified to take the floor myself at any moment and not give it back. I am an insatiable learner, Niels, but I was taught to be a critical learner. And thus I am. I just have so much to say in my articles and have so many people to quote that I cannot always quote every conceivable scholar, critical or conservative. You haven’t read enough of my articles, though, if you think I haven’t interacted with critical scholars at all.
                      >
                      > As for why I am not studying under Kitchen, well, he is a phenomenal Egyptologist, and my ability within the world of Egyptology—though perhaps not insignificant—probably never will even approach his. Even you should appreciate how amazing of an Egyptologist he is (that is, if you truly understand the field). I am applying for a post-doc under/with an Egyptologist, though.
                      >
                      > However, I do not take Kitchen to be anywhere near exemplary in his grasp of biblical exegesis, which—among other things—has led him to the entirely wrong era for the exodus. Because of this, he has lost lots of time and energy that would have been better if redirected elsewhere. Kitchen is not the interdisciplinarian that some others are, despite his many positive contributions to biblical studies (which are not few). With my strong background in biblical exegesis, I was not ready to settle for less than precision in this area. Kitchen is off of the radar in this area, unfortunately.
                      >
                      > While you may see me as ‘just a PhD student’, which is fine, I have 10 years experience teaching seminary students, a seminary that I founded in Siberia (serving as academic dean) and turned over to Russians whom we had trained. Because of a small faculty, I taught 25 different undergrad and grad courses in three programs. As a professor, you should appreciate the demands that such a teaching load would present . . . even more so in a vastly foreign culture and with a different language. So in truth, I am not your average PhD student, either in age or in background, for whatever it’s worth.
                      >
                      > I am not sure just what to say about your response to my published articles, except that I am honored you read them. Certainly it is disappointing to hear that you consider 1 or more to be worthless, but this is within your right. I meant what I said about how I will be dragging you into my discipline of expertise, though, whether you squawk at this now or not.
                      >
                      > The nature of my book simply will necessitate it, because it will be something you absolutely cannot ignore. Now, it would be all the easier for me if you were to ignore it, but the Tel Dan inscription will seem like child’s play to you when the book comes out. The importance of the latter will dwarf the importance of the former, both to me, to you, and many others.
                      >
                      > Well, if you will be 98 in 30 years, perhaps we are going to have to arrange an earlier time. Not many of us get to live that long. I most certainly will bring flowers when I come, along with whatever your favorite chocolate is. Of course, we will have to wait until the book comes out to see if you are still willing to set a date and have me come.
                      >
                      > And if you really want to live on the edge, you can always invite me to speak to your students (w/o remuneration, of course). I would even let them raz me in a Q & A session, just to bring a smile to your face. I will be disappointed if my visit does not bring a smile to your face, at least once. And besides, I would be like a free lab rat to you.
                      >
                      > Until then, I will continue to enjoy any dialogue that we get to experience, Niels, even if you have shut it down for this discussion. One thing is for sure: you made sure that I no longer have the opportunity to keep a low profile.
                      >
                      > Yours,
                      >
                      > Douglas Petrovich
                      > Toronto
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      --
                      +++++++
                      Jim West, ThD
                      Pastor, Petros Baptist Church
                      Adjunct Prof. of Biblical Studies, Quartz Hill School of Theology



                      ------------------------------------

                      Yahoo! Groups Links
                    • Michael F. Lane
                      Dear ANE-listers, I would be most grateful if someone could provide me with a list of works *detailing* 1) Senusret II s irrigation and flood-management
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jul 28 10:40 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dear ANE-listers,

                        I would be most grateful if someone could provide me with a list of works
                        *detailing*
                        1) Senusret II's irrigation and flood-management project in the Fayyum, and
                        2) Tudhaliya IV's presumably similar, although much later, project near
                        Alaca Höyük.

                        In particular, I am interested in expert engineering reconstructions,
                        including anything diagrammatic.

                        With best regards,

                        Michael F. Lane
                        University of Maryland Baltimore County

                        --
                        Prof.. Michael Franklin Lane
                        Co-Director, AROURA
                        Ancient Studies Department
                        University of Maryland, Baltimore County
                        Fine Arts Building, Room 452
                        1000 Hilltop Circle
                        Baltimore, MD 21250, USA
                        Tel. +1-410-455-2979 / Fax +1-410-455-1660
                        Skype: barrenador
                        http://www.umbc.edu/aroura
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