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Re: 10th Cent BCE inscription on jar from Jerusalem

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  • Michael Welch
    Dear Dr. Maeir, Are ceramic assemblages dated with certitude? There is no plus or minus a century or so? You found LMLK type jars in the 830BC destruction
    Message 1 of 51 , Jul 16, 2013
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      Dear Dr. Maeir, Are ceramic assemblages dated with certitude? There is no plus or minus a century or so? You found LMLK type jars in the 830BC destruction layer of Hazael at Gath. Many scholars like Professor Stern and Drs. Lipschits, Koch, Sergi, Van der Veen and Grena say the LMLK type jars were manufactured into the 600s B.C. and even later. Unless this jar fragment from Jerusalem is really diagnostic, how can it be limited to the 9th century? Some inscription, such as the Siloam Inscription, has a distinctive Kaf/He connected by their tails. This is also true of a monumental inscription found in the last few years in Jerusalem's excavations conducted by Drs. Reich and Shukron. It is also found on the Socoh two winged sun disk LMLK stamp on LMLK jars from the reign of King Hezekiah. It could be stated that all three of these inscriptions were done by the same Jerusalem scribe around 700B.C. It could never be proven with certainty though. With pottery chronologies being refined to where Drs. Amihai Mazar and Dr. Israel Finkelstein(along with Drs. Herzog and Singer-Avitz too) are now in agreement that 950B.C. is now the beginning of Iron IIA, pottery assemblages are being redated. Apparently this early alphabetic script found on this Jerusalem jar fragment is on the Samaria Ivories which have been dated to the 9th and 8th centuries B.C., so it could be on 9th century jars. However, even with C-14 tests we do not have the ability to date an inscription or a ceramic piece precisely. There is always a plus or minus so many years. Thank you for all of your efforts.
      With Much Gratitude and Admiration,
      Sincerely Yours,
      Michael Welch
      Deltona, Florida

      --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "aren" <maeira@...> wrote:
      > I'm definitely not a "high chronologist" - at most a "revised conventional" and my 9th is not 8th? Would anyone seriously date the "Hazael" destruction at Gath to the 8th?
      > As to comparisons between ceramic and epigraphic typologies: The former is based on many, excellent contexts - many well-dated (historical and cosmogenic based datings), in which we can see tight stratigraphic and chronological sequencing along with distinct regional developments.
      > On the other hand, most of the epigraphic chrono-typologies are based, mostly, on non-provenanced materials, with very few examples from good, well-dated contexts. And in fact, very often, when such examples are found in context, they disagree with the conventional typologies (e.g., Cross and Stager's suggested dating of the ALWT/WLT sherd from Tell es-Safi/Gath - which flew in the face of the typology of the sherd on which it was written - and the context from which it was found!).
      > If one reads the IEJ article on the new Ophel inscription carefully, the authors note that there are two types of pithoi in the context, one early and one late, and the inscription is on the LATE type - and they even bring the 9th cent parallels to it.
      > I simply can't comprehend how people can still argue for an early date of letter types based on a simplistic comparison to letter types from other sites. First of all, as mentioned above, many of the examples come from unprovenanced or poorly contexted examples (such as ALL the bronze arrowheads, the Gezer calendar, the Ezbet Zarta sherd (which comes from a pit with an extended data, etc.). Also, the comparison to other inscriptions from diverse regions - when we clearly know that the alphabet developed at different paces in different regions and in different strata of society. Even if we eventually can build a robust chrono-typology of the development of the early Iron Age alphabetic script, one will have to take into account regional variations and "battleship curve" typological charts.
      > It's time to drop the concept that the same letter type appears all over at the same time - and disappears at the same time as well!
      > Aren Maeir
      > gath.wordpress.com
    • Doug Weller
      Hi Brian, Anyway, isn t the Samaritan Book of Joshua dated to around the 13th century CE, so is irrelevant? Doug ... -- -- Doug Weller Moderator,
      Message 51 of 51 , Jul 19, 2013
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        Hi Brian,

        Anyway, isn't the Samaritan Book of Joshua dated to around the 13th
        century CE, so is irrelevant?

        Friday, July 19, 2013, 6:27:19 PM, you wrote:

        > Ian,

        > Great, so now we have to explain why we haven't found "made by
        > David" inscriptions for a dozen or more Amorite rulers?! One was challenging enough!

        > best,

        > R. Brian Roberts
        > Charlotte, NC

        > ________________________________
        > From: Ian Onvlee <sambacats@...>
        > To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 12:10 PM
        > Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Re: King David’s Palace Uncovered in the Judean Shephelah

        > Dear Douglas,

        > I see no reason why we should delete David from the literary record
        > as given, nor do I see reason to talk of a David in the
        > archaeological record. Especially since the Masoretic and Septuagint
        > are not the only sources speaking of David. The Samaritan Book of
        > Joshua dates this same David to around 1250 BC instead. Who are we
        > to believe? Can we please be impartial about it? "David" simply
        > means "leader", so every Amoritic leader from 2300-1650 BC was
        > therefore a "David". The most famous "David" would be Hammurabi, and
        > his son Samsuiluna would then be the most famous "Solomon", when
        > Jerusalem was indeed the expected city-state/kingdom of such great
        > figures as a "Saul", "David" or Solomon, between 1900 and 1750 BC.
        > So we may well be misled to look in the wrong millennium and
        > century. That gives us all the more reason to keep "David" out of
        > the archaeological record until we do have evidence of a king David and his kingdom.

        > It is possible that one day we may uncover a kingdom of a real
        > living king Osiris, but until then it should not be entertained in
        > the archaeological record. Not long ago, the 1st and 2nd dynasties
        > were kept out of the archaeological record for the same reason, but
        > we finally dug up their tombs and artifacts. So yes, whenever the
        > Bible comes into play, nationalistic sentiments do distort our perception of the facts.

        > Regards,
        > Ian Onvlee,
        > Netherlands.

        > ________________________________
        > From: Douglas Petrovich <dp@...>
        > To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2013 3:07 PM
        > Subject: [ANE-2] Re: King David’s Palace Uncovered in the Judean Shephelah

        > Ian,

        > While I appreciate your zeal immensely, I must say that it is
        > exceedingly misguided. I would call your perspective ‘studying
        > archaeology in a vacuum’. Actually, this is a trap into which even
        > many brilliant archaeologists have ensnared themselves, astoundingly
        > enough. So, you certainly are not alone.

        > This diseased approach to archaeology is the result of the
        > archaeology-enthusiast’s volitional act of divorcing archaeology
        > from the greater field of (in this case) ancient history, at least
        > in his/her own mind. As I mentioned recently, I am one who devotes
        > himself to the greater field of ancient history, of which
        > archaeology is merely one branch among others, such as epigraphy, iconography, glyptics, etc.

        > I constantly have a front row seat for the silly battles that take
        > place between archaeologists and epigraphers. They each fight to
        > maintain the superiority of their own subdiscipline, using the
        > belittling of the other’s subdiscipline as a springboard to exalted
        > status. This is self-deceptive in its most pristine form.

        > All the while, the greater discipline of ancient history suffers
        > immeasurably during these childish turf wars in the realms of its
        > constituent parts. No, I have neither time nor patience for such
        > arrogant and vain battles. But I can tell you this: whatever you
        > call it, what you suggest is NOT good archaeology; rather, it is
        > revisionary history, arrived at with a dash of smugness and a
        > smattering of naiveté. The belittling of the ancient written sources
        > does no justice whatsoever to archaeology.

        > Yes, if we were to follow your mantra, we would not only remove
        > David from the record books despite the Tel Dan Stele (and yes, I
        > read Lemche, Athas, et al.), but we would etch out figures such as
        > Lugalzagesi, Ur-Zababa, and even Sargon of Akkad, among many others,
        > though their fingerprints are seen all over the landscape of the
        > ancient world, even by archaeologists! Are you certain that you are
        > ready for such a bold campaign as this? Arguments from silence are
        > precarious foundations on which to build castles, my friend.

        > There are not as many of us dinosaurs around nowadays, having lost
        > a great champion of ancient history with the passing of Anson
        > Rainey. However, we will survive this ice age, and we will be the
        > stronger for it. We will not allow archaeological arrogance or
        > revisionary history to win the day.

        > Sincerely,

        > Douglas Petrovich
        > Toronto

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        > ------------------------------------

        > Yahoo! Groups Links

        Doug Weller Moderator, sci.archaeology.moderated
        Director The Hall of Ma'at http://www.hallofmaat.com
        Doug's Skeptical Archaeology Site: http://www.ramtops.co.uk
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