Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: SV: [ANE-2] Licit Antiquities Trade

Expand Messages
  • Joe Zias
    up until a short time ago the BAR Crowd were selling stones from their  Tzuba Cave of John the Baptist on EBay. it.s gone now, evidently sold out. Price
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 16 11:27 AM
    • 0 Attachment
      up until a short time ago the 'BAR Crowd' were selling stones from their  Tzuba 'Cave of John the Baptist on EBay. it.s gone now, evidently sold out. Price was ca- 40 US dollars.
       
      Joe Zias www.joezias.org

      Anthropology/Paleopathology/Guide

      Science and Antiquity - Jerusalem
      Jerusalem, Israel



      >________________________________
      > From: David Hall <dqhall59@...>
      >To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
      >Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 7:43 PM
      >Subject: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Licit Antiquities Trade
      >
      >
      >

      >Niels:
      >
      >It might be possible to obtain an antiquity collection at an estate sale.  Some people collected antiquities as they may be considered rare and were supposed to appreciate in value over the long term.  Sometimes a large number of antiquities or fakes might appear on the market depressing the price of certain types of antiquities.  I found something listed as an "Iron Age" dipper juglet on Ebay at auction with a starting price of 99 cents (.99 US dollar).
      >
      >http://tinyurl.com/kgsm24k
      >
      >A 3000 year old "Temple of Sheba" inscription was listed at 95 cents.  I suppose it is difficult to find an honest antiquities dealer.
      >
      >There were "stones from the Sea of Galilee where Jesus was reported as having walked" listed on Ebay for $9.99.  It is difficult to sell stones of dull and earthy appearance at any price.
      >
      >David Q. Hall
      >Port Charlotte
      >
      >________________________________
      >From: Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...>
      >To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
      >Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 11:53 AM
      >Subject: SV: [ANE-2] Licit Antiquities Trade
      >
      >

      >Dear Trudy,
      >
      >When I as a child visited Certosa di Firenze, a major monastery, the monk who showed us the place stopped in front of some empty spaces at the wall: The paintings which belong here you can find at the Louvre, with a precise indication of where in Louvre to find them. It did not begin with the Nazis; it is a very old trade. The people who brought these paintings to the Louvre were French officers from the Napoleonic war. Likewise, British officers of the Peninsula war were famous for looting. As a joke (non-verified) went, they sometime in the middle of the last century opened granddad's coffin in the attic. At the top they found a Rafael. It had to be restored, and the chief conservator came out with his golden hammer, and ... right down through the painting. The chef curator had not done it for many years.
      >
      >But the bad ways of yesterday do not endorse modern "practices".
      >
      >Niels Peter Lemche
      >
      >-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
      >Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Trudy Kawami
      >Sendt: den 16 juli 2013 17:49
      >Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      >Emne: RE: [ANE-2] Licit Antiquities Trade
      >
      >Actually a museum or collector selling an art work may well be in the same boat as someone selling a looted pot. There are still ongoing issues with museum ownership of Renaissance to 20th century works that found their way into the art market after being seized or coerced from their owners by the Nazis. It is not a simple problem and there are no easy solutions.
      >
      >Trudy S. Kawami
      >
      >From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Hall
      >Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 6:12 AM
      >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Licit Antiquities Trade
      >
      >There is a need to prevent looting and trafficking in stolen property. An artist or museum selling a painting is not the same as a thief doing an illegal dig and selling the loot to an antiquities dealer. Antiquities dealers may legally obtain artifacts and sell them.
      >
      >It is presumed some antiquities thieves dug without the permission of the landowner(s). This is a problem as the individual(s) did not respect the property rights of others. There is also a need to preserve archaeological sites as professional archaeologists may provide more scientific data than a grave robber finding an artifact without providing data about the stratigraphic context or locality where the artifact was found. Archaeological sites have been protected in order to preserve artifacts in the interest of those needing to research historical and cultural identity. In Israel someone may need to get a permit before digging for artifacts and to provide detailed reports of their work in order for scholars to be able to have a chance to study reports of the finds.
      >
      >David Q. Hall
      >Port Charlotte, FL
      >
      >________________________________
      >
      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >------------------------------------
      >
      >Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Peter T. Daniels
      Last year, when I spoke at a workshop at Haifa University, we were going to go to Acco in the morning of my sightseeing day and Nazareth in the afternoon,
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 16 12:19 PM
      • 0 Attachment
        Last year, when I spoke at a workshop at Haifa University, we were going to go to Acco in the morning of my sightseeing day and Nazareth in the afternoon, where I was _so_ looking forward to being offered sawdust from the floor of Joseph's workshop, that had been sawed by Jesus himself ... unfortunately, the lovely lunch in an excellent Arab restaurant in a lovely corner of Acco used up most of the afternoon! 

        I didn't even think of stones from the Sea of Galilee that He might have trodden.
        --
        Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
        Jersey City


        >________________________________
        > From: Joe Zias <joezias@...>
        >To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
        >Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 2:27 PM
        >Subject: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Licit Antiquities Trade
        >
        >
        >

        >up until a short time ago the 'BAR Crowd' were selling stones from their  Tzuba 'Cave of John the Baptist on EBay. it.s gone now, evidently sold out. Price was ca- 40 US dollars.

        >Joe Zias www.joezias.org
        >
        >Anthropology/Paleopathology/Guide
        >
        >Science and Antiquity - Jerusalem
        >Jerusalem, Israel
        >
        >>________________________________
        >> From: David Hall <dqhall59@...>
        >>To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
        >>Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 7:43 PM
        >>Subject: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Licit Antiquities Trade
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> 
        >>Niels:
        >>
        >>It might be possible to obtain an antiquity collection at an estate sale.  Some people collected antiquities as they may be considered rare and were supposed to appreciate in value over the long term.  Sometimes a large number of antiquities or fakes might appear on the market depressing the price of certain types of antiquities.  I found something listed as an "Iron Age" dipper juglet on Ebay at auction with a starting price of 99 cents (.99 US dollar).
        >>
        >>http://tinyurl.com/kgsm24k
        >>
        >>A 3000 year old "Temple of Sheba" inscription was listed at 95 cents.  I suppose it is difficult to find an honest antiquities dealer.
        >>
        >>There were "stones from the Sea of Galilee where Jesus was reported as having walked" listed on Ebay for $9.99.  It is difficult to sell stones of dull and earthy appearance at any price.
        >>
        >>David Q. Hall
        >>Port Charlotte
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Niels Peter Lemche
        Well, I have seen sealed bottles with holy land air within, but none of this is really a problem. It is a problem if you go to google earth a zoom in at Apamea
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 16 1:16 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          Well, I have seen sealed bottles with holy land air within, but none of this is really a problem. It is a problem if you go to google earth a zoom in at Apamea in Syria and se the many hundred holes dug by thieves. A major sites has been wasted and probably totally destroyed. It is organized crime, and there is a market for them, evidently.

          But you can check for yourself.

          Niels Peter Lemche

          -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
          Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Peter T. Daniels
          Sendt: den 16 juli 2013 21:19
          Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Licit Antiquities Trade

          Last year, when I spoke at a workshop at Haifa University, we were going to go to Acco in the morning of my sightseeing day and Nazareth in the afternoon, where I was _so_ looking forward to being offered sawdust from the floor of Joseph's workshop, that had been sawed by Jesus himself ... unfortunately, the lovely lunch in an excellent Arab restaurant in a lovely corner of Acco used up most of the afternoon! 

          I didn't even think of stones from the Sea of Galilee that He might have trodden.
          --
          Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
          Jersey City


          >________________________________
          > From: Joe Zias <joezias@...>
          >To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
          >Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 2:27 PM
          >Subject: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Licit Antiquities Trade
          >
          >
          >

          >up until a short time ago the 'BAR Crowd' were selling stones from their  Tzuba 'Cave of John the Baptist on EBay. it.s gone now, evidently sold out. Price was ca- 40 US dollars.

          >Joe Zias www.joezias.org
          >
          >Anthropology/Paleopathology/Guide
          >
          >Science and Antiquity - Jerusalem
          >Jerusalem, Israel
          >
          >>________________________________
          >> From: David Hall <dqhall59@...>
          >>To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
          >>Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 7:43 PM
          >>Subject: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Licit Antiquities Trade
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> 
          >>Niels:
          >>
          >>It might be possible to obtain an antiquity collection at an estate sale.  Some people collected antiquities as they may be considered rare and were supposed to appreciate in value over the long term.  Sometimes a large number of antiquities or fakes might appear on the market depressing the price of certain types of antiquities.  I found something listed as an "Iron Age" dipper juglet on Ebay at auction with a starting price of 99 cents (.99 US dollar).
          >>
          >>http://tinyurl.com/kgsm24k
          >>
          >>A 3000 year old "Temple of Sheba" inscription was listed at 95 cents.  I suppose it is difficult to find an honest antiquities dealer.
          >>
          >>There were "stones from the Sea of Galilee where Jesus was reported as having walked" listed on Ebay for $9.99.  It is difficult to sell stones of dull and earthy appearance at any price.
          >>
          >>David Q. Hall
          >>Port Charlotte
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • robtyenow
          Dear Niels, Your comment takes us well off topic I think, thus I hope I may be permitted just one posting in defence of 19th century British gentlemen. (Of
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 17 1:30 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Niels,

            Your comment takes us well off topic I think, thus I hope I may be permitted just one posting in defence of 19th century British gentlemen. (Of course I agree with your main point, the preservation of sites for properly conducted excavation)

            You write:

            NPL > British officers of the Peninsula war were famous for looting. As a joke (non-verified) went, they sometime in the middle of the last century……

            I think we should take a more holistic approach to past cultures, and remember the monumental achievements of historians of that 19th century period, many of whom were entirely unpaid military men or civil servants, who worked for the love of scholarship, for instance the translations of Major Raverty, Sir H M Elliot (dead at 45 leaving about 4,000 pages of translation), the work of Codrington, Princep, Rogers, Cunningham etc.

            It has long puzzled me that a small band of private enthusiasts achieved so much in the 19th century, yet in the later 20th century, the work of translation seems to have slowed to a trickle amongst a ballooning and well funded professional culture.

            Perhaps I may add a small remembrance too of a 17th century Yorkshire soldier and amateur historian, General Fairfax, whose first act when he took Oxford for parliament in 1646 was to send guards to the Bodleian Library to protect it against looting?

            I would say more, in defence of dead amateurs and of a related complex matter, the very grave dangers of the ongoing trend of professionalization of historical studies. But please contact me off group if you wish to hear it.

            Regards

            Rob Tye, York, UK

            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Trudy,
            >
            > When I as a child visited Certosa di Firenze, a major monastery, the monk who showed us the place stopped in front of some empty spaces at the wall: The paintings which belong here you can find at the Louvre, with a precise indication of where in Louvre to find them. It did not begin with the Nazis; it is a very old trade. The people who brought these paintings to the Louvre were French officers from the Napoleonic war. Likewise, British officers of the Peninsula war were famous for looting. As a joke (non-verified) went, they sometime in the middle of the last century opened granddad's coffin in the attic. At the top they found a Rafael. It had to be restored, and the chief conservator came out with his golden hammer, and ... right down through the painting. The chef curator had not done it for many years.
            >
            > But the bad ways of yesterday do not endorse modern "practices".
            >
            > Niels Peter Lemche
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.