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Illicit Antiquities Trade

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  • Niels Peter Lemche
    I got this link via aegeannet two days ago. I believe it is a valuable piece about something that is a huge problem, not least in these days of disorder in the
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 15, 2013
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      I got this link via aegeannet two days ago. I believe it is a valuable piece about something that is a huge problem, not least in these days of disorder in the Middle East:




      http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=8937643&fulltextType=RA&fileId=S0940739113000015



      Niels Peter Lemche


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • eliot braun
      * Just a thought. I m back from Paris, where I wandered around the Left Bank near the Seine, which is loaded with art galleries. Aside from modern artistic
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 16, 2013
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        *

        Just a thought. I'm back from Paris, where I wandered around the Left Bank near the Seine, which is loaded with art galleries. Aside from modern artistic production there are numerous galleries selling cultural heritage of many different areas, mostly south America, hither Asia and Africa. I'm equally worried about the licit trade in those artifacts. I wonder what others on the list think of that.
         
        Eliot Braun, Ph D
        Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem
        Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Français de Jérusalem
        PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel
        Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096


        ________________________________
        From: Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...>
        To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 11:02 PM
        Subject: [ANE-2] Illicit Antiquities Trade



         
        I got this link via aegeannet two days ago. I believe it is a valuable piece about something that is a huge problem, not least in these days of disorder in the Middle East:

        http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=8937643&fulltextType=RA&fileId=S0940739113000015

        Niels Peter Lemche

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Robert
        I wonder. Is art, such as paintings by Rubens, Botticelli, Picasso, Chagall or sculptures by Michelangelo, Celini, Moore, to mention just a few, are they not
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 16, 2013
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          I wonder.
          Is art, such as paintings by Rubens, Botticelli, Picasso, Chagall or
          sculptures by Michelangelo, Celini, Moore, to
          mention just a few, are they not also cultural heritage ?

          I wonder.
          There is no need in preventing selling such "artifacts" ?
          Don't they have to be only in Museums (or as is
          the case with the majority of the works of art) be in museums storage ?

          I wonder.
          Why an ancient Hebrew seal looted from a grave is
          cultural heritage and is not to be sold (and of course published),
          but a 15th century Gutenberg Bible can be freely circulate on the market

          I wonder.

          Robert Deutsch
          Tel Aviv


          At 11:57 16/07/2013, you wrote:
          >
          >
          >Just a thought. I'm back from Paris, where I
          >wandered around the Left Bank near the Seine,
          >which is loaded with art galleries. Aside from
          >modern artistic production there are numerous
          >galleries selling cultural heritage of many
          >different areas, mostly south America, hither
          >Asia and Africa. I'm equally worried about the
          >licit trade in those artifacts. I wonder what others on the list think of that.

          >Eliot Braun, Ph D
          >Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem
          >Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Français de Jérusalem
          >PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel
          >Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096
          >
          >________________________________
          >From: Niels Peter Lemche <<mailto:npl%40teol.ku.dk>npl@...>
          >To:
          >"<mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>ANE-2@yahoogroups.com"
          ><<mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
          >Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 11:02 PM
          >Subject: [ANE-2] Illicit Antiquities Trade


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • David Hall
          There is a need to prevent looting and trafficking in stolen property.  An artist or museum selling a painting is not the same as a thief doing an illegal dig
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 16, 2013
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            There is a need to prevent looting and trafficking in stolen property.  An artist or museum selling a painting is not the same as a thief doing an illegal dig and selling the loot to an antiquities dealer.  Antiquities dealers may legally obtain artifacts and sell them. 

            It is presumed some antiquities thieves dug without the permission of the landowner(s).  This is a problem as the individual(s) did not respect the property rights of others.  There is also a need to preserve archaeological sites as professional archaeologists may provide more scientific data than a grave robber finding an artifact without providing data about the stratigraphic context or locality where the artifact was found.  Archaeological sites have been protected in order to preserve artifacts in the interest of those needing to research historical and cultural identity.  In Israel someone may need to get a permit before digging for artifacts and to provide detailed reports of their work in order for scholars to be able to have a chance to study reports of the finds.

            David Q. Hall
            Port Charlotte, FL






            ________________________________
            From: Robert <rd@...>
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 5:42 AM
            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Licit Antiquities Trade



             

            I wonder.
            Is art, such as paintings by Rubens, Botticelli, Picasso, Chagall or
            sculptures by Michelangelo, Celini, Moore, to
            mention just a few, are they not also cultural heritage ?

            I wonder.
            There is no need in preventing selling such "artifacts" ?
            Don't they have to be only in Museums (or as is
            the case with the majority of the works of art) be in museums storage ?

            I wonder.
            Why an ancient Hebrew seal looted from a grave is
            cultural heritage and is not to be sold (and of course published),
            but a 15th century Gutenberg Bible can be freely circulate on the market

            I wonder.

            Robert Deutsch
            Tel Aviv

            At 11:57 16/07/2013, you wrote:
            >
            >
            >Just a thought. I'm back from Paris, where I
            >wandered around the Left Bank near the Seine,
            >which is loaded with art galleries. Aside from
            >modern artistic production there are numerous
            >galleries selling cultural heritage of many
            >different areas, mostly south America, hither
            >Asia and Africa. I'm equally worried about the
            >licit trade in those artifacts. I wonder what others on the list think of that.

            >Eliot Braun, Ph D
            >Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem
            >Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Français de Jérusalem
            >PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel
            >Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096
            >
            >________________________________
            >From: Niels Peter Lemche <<mailto:npl%40teol.ku.dk>npl@...>
            >To:
            >"<mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>ANE-2@yahoogroups.com"
            ><<mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
            >Sent: Monday, July 15, 2013 11:02 PM
            >Subject: [ANE-2] Illicit Antiquities Trade

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Trudy Kawami
            Actually a museum or collector selling an art work may well be in the same boat as someone selling a looted pot. There are still ongoing issues with museum
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 16, 2013
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              Actually a museum or collector selling an art work may well be in the same boat as someone selling a looted pot. There are still ongoing issues with museum ownership of Renaissance to 20th century works that found their way into the art market after being seized or coerced from their owners by the Nazis. It is not a simple problem and there are no easy solutions.

              Trudy S. Kawami

              From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Hall
              Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 6:12 AM
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Licit Antiquities Trade



              There is a need to prevent looting and trafficking in stolen property. An artist or museum selling a painting is not the same as a thief doing an illegal dig and selling the loot to an antiquities dealer. Antiquities dealers may legally obtain artifacts and sell them.

              It is presumed some antiquities thieves dug without the permission of the landowner(s). This is a problem as the individual(s) did not respect the property rights of others. There is also a need to preserve archaeological sites as professional archaeologists may provide more scientific data than a grave robber finding an artifact without providing data about the stratigraphic context or locality where the artifact was found. Archaeological sites have been protected in order to preserve artifacts in the interest of those needing to research historical and cultural identity. In Israel someone may need to get a permit before digging for artifacts and to provide detailed reports of their work in order for scholars to be able to have a chance to study reports of the finds.

              David Q. Hall
              Port Charlotte, FL

              ________________________________



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Niels Peter Lemche
              Dear Trudy, When I as a child visited Certosa di Firenze, a major monastery, the monk who showed us the place stopped in front of some empty spaces at the
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 16, 2013
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                Dear Trudy,

                When I as a child visited Certosa di Firenze, a major monastery, the monk who showed us the place stopped in front of some empty spaces at the wall: The paintings which belong here you can find at the Louvre, with a precise indication of where in Louvre to find them. It did not begin with the Nazis; it is a very old trade. The people who brought these paintings to the Louvre were French officers from the Napoleonic war. Likewise, British officers of the Peninsula war were famous for looting. As a joke (non-verified) went, they sometime in the middle of the last century opened granddad's coffin in the attic. At the top they found a Rafael. It had to be restored, and the chief conservator came out with his golden hammer, and ... right down through the painting. The chef curator had not done it for many years.

                But the bad ways of yesterday do not endorse modern "practices".

                Niels Peter Lemche



                -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Trudy Kawami
                Sendt: den 16 juli 2013 17:49
                Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Emne: RE: [ANE-2] Licit Antiquities Trade

                Actually a museum or collector selling an art work may well be in the same boat as someone selling a looted pot. There are still ongoing issues with museum ownership of Renaissance to 20th century works that found their way into the art market after being seized or coerced from their owners by the Nazis. It is not a simple problem and there are no easy solutions.

                Trudy S. Kawami

                From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Hall
                Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 6:12 AM
                To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Licit Antiquities Trade



                There is a need to prevent looting and trafficking in stolen property. An artist or museum selling a painting is not the same as a thief doing an illegal dig and selling the loot to an antiquities dealer. Antiquities dealers may legally obtain artifacts and sell them.

                It is presumed some antiquities thieves dug without the permission of the landowner(s). This is a problem as the individual(s) did not respect the property rights of others. There is also a need to preserve archaeological sites as professional archaeologists may provide more scientific data than a grave robber finding an artifact without providing data about the stratigraphic context or locality where the artifact was found. Archaeological sites have been protected in order to preserve artifacts in the interest of those needing to research historical and cultural identity. In Israel someone may need to get a permit before digging for artifacts and to provide detailed reports of their work in order for scholars to be able to have a chance to study reports of the finds.

                David Q. Hall
                Port Charlotte, FL

                ________________________________



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                ------------------------------------

                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • David Hall
                Niels: It might be possible to obtain an antiquity collection at an estate sale.  Some people collected antiquities as they may be considered rare and were
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 16, 2013
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                  Niels:

                  It might be possible to obtain an antiquity collection at an estate sale.  Some people collected antiquities as they may be considered rare and were supposed to appreciate in value over the long term.  Sometimes a large number of antiquities or fakes might appear on the market depressing the price of certain types of antiquities.  I found something listed as an "Iron Age" dipper juglet on Ebay at auction with a starting price of 99 cents (.99 US dollar).

                  http://tinyurl.com/kgsm24k

                  A 3000 year old "Temple of Sheba" inscription was listed at 95 cents.  I suppose it is difficult to find an honest antiquities dealer.

                  There were "stones from the Sea of Galilee where Jesus was reported as having walked" listed on Ebay for $9.99.  It is difficult to sell stones of dull and earthy appearance at any price.

                  David Q. Hall
                  Port Charlotte




                  ________________________________
                  From: Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...>
                  To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 11:53 AM
                  Subject: SV: [ANE-2] Licit Antiquities Trade



                   
                  Dear Trudy,

                  When I as a child visited Certosa di Firenze, a major monastery, the monk who showed us the place stopped in front of some empty spaces at the wall: The paintings which belong here you can find at the Louvre, with a precise indication of where in Louvre to find them. It did not begin with the Nazis; it is a very old trade. The people who brought these paintings to the Louvre were French officers from the Napoleonic war. Likewise, British officers of the Peninsula war were famous for looting. As a joke (non-verified) went, they sometime in the middle of the last century opened granddad's coffin in the attic. At the top they found a Rafael. It had to be restored, and the chief conservator came out with his golden hammer, and ... right down through the painting. The chef curator had not done it for many years.

                  But the bad ways of yesterday do not endorse modern "practices".

                  Niels Peter Lemche

                  -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                  Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Trudy Kawami
                  Sendt: den 16 juli 2013 17:49
                  Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  Emne: RE: [ANE-2] Licit Antiquities Trade

                  Actually a museum or collector selling an art work may well be in the same boat as someone selling a looted pot. There are still ongoing issues with museum ownership of Renaissance to 20th century works that found their way into the art market after being seized or coerced from their owners by the Nazis. It is not a simple problem and there are no easy solutions.

                  Trudy S. Kawami

                  From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Hall
                  Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 6:12 AM
                  To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Licit Antiquities Trade

                  There is a need to prevent looting and trafficking in stolen property. An artist or museum selling a painting is not the same as a thief doing an illegal dig and selling the loot to an antiquities dealer. Antiquities dealers may legally obtain artifacts and sell them.

                  It is presumed some antiquities thieves dug without the permission of the landowner(s). This is a problem as the individual(s) did not respect the property rights of others. There is also a need to preserve archaeological sites as professional archaeologists may provide more scientific data than a grave robber finding an artifact without providing data about the stratigraphic context or locality where the artifact was found. Archaeological sites have been protected in order to preserve artifacts in the interest of those needing to research historical and cultural identity. In Israel someone may need to get a permit before digging for artifacts and to provide detailed reports of their work in order for scholars to be able to have a chance to study reports of the finds.

                  David Q. Hall
                  Port Charlotte, FL

                  ________________________________

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Joe Zias
                  up until a short time ago the BAR Crowd were selling stones from their  Tzuba Cave of John the Baptist on EBay. it.s gone now, evidently sold out. Price
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jul 16, 2013
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                    up until a short time ago the 'BAR Crowd' were selling stones from their  Tzuba 'Cave of John the Baptist on EBay. it.s gone now, evidently sold out. Price was ca- 40 US dollars.
                     
                    Joe Zias www.joezias.org

                    Anthropology/Paleopathology/Guide

                    Science and Antiquity - Jerusalem
                    Jerusalem, Israel



                    >________________________________
                    > From: David Hall <dqhall59@...>
                    >To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                    >Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 7:43 PM
                    >Subject: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Licit Antiquities Trade
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    >Niels:
                    >
                    >It might be possible to obtain an antiquity collection at an estate sale.  Some people collected antiquities as they may be considered rare and were supposed to appreciate in value over the long term.  Sometimes a large number of antiquities or fakes might appear on the market depressing the price of certain types of antiquities.  I found something listed as an "Iron Age" dipper juglet on Ebay at auction with a starting price of 99 cents (.99 US dollar).
                    >
                    >http://tinyurl.com/kgsm24k
                    >
                    >A 3000 year old "Temple of Sheba" inscription was listed at 95 cents.  I suppose it is difficult to find an honest antiquities dealer.
                    >
                    >There were "stones from the Sea of Galilee where Jesus was reported as having walked" listed on Ebay for $9.99.  It is difficult to sell stones of dull and earthy appearance at any price.
                    >
                    >David Q. Hall
                    >Port Charlotte
                    >
                    >________________________________
                    >From: Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...>
                    >To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                    >Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 11:53 AM
                    >Subject: SV: [ANE-2] Licit Antiquities Trade
                    >
                    >

                    >Dear Trudy,
                    >
                    >When I as a child visited Certosa di Firenze, a major monastery, the monk who showed us the place stopped in front of some empty spaces at the wall: The paintings which belong here you can find at the Louvre, with a precise indication of where in Louvre to find them. It did not begin with the Nazis; it is a very old trade. The people who brought these paintings to the Louvre were French officers from the Napoleonic war. Likewise, British officers of the Peninsula war were famous for looting. As a joke (non-verified) went, they sometime in the middle of the last century opened granddad's coffin in the attic. At the top they found a Rafael. It had to be restored, and the chief conservator came out with his golden hammer, and ... right down through the painting. The chef curator had not done it for many years.
                    >
                    >But the bad ways of yesterday do not endorse modern "practices".
                    >
                    >Niels Peter Lemche
                    >
                    >-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                    >Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Trudy Kawami
                    >Sendt: den 16 juli 2013 17:49
                    >Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    >Emne: RE: [ANE-2] Licit Antiquities Trade
                    >
                    >Actually a museum or collector selling an art work may well be in the same boat as someone selling a looted pot. There are still ongoing issues with museum ownership of Renaissance to 20th century works that found their way into the art market after being seized or coerced from their owners by the Nazis. It is not a simple problem and there are no easy solutions.
                    >
                    >Trudy S. Kawami
                    >
                    >From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of David Hall
                    >Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 6:12 AM
                    >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Licit Antiquities Trade
                    >
                    >There is a need to prevent looting and trafficking in stolen property. An artist or museum selling a painting is not the same as a thief doing an illegal dig and selling the loot to an antiquities dealer. Antiquities dealers may legally obtain artifacts and sell them.
                    >
                    >It is presumed some antiquities thieves dug without the permission of the landowner(s). This is a problem as the individual(s) did not respect the property rights of others. There is also a need to preserve archaeological sites as professional archaeologists may provide more scientific data than a grave robber finding an artifact without providing data about the stratigraphic context or locality where the artifact was found. Archaeological sites have been protected in order to preserve artifacts in the interest of those needing to research historical and cultural identity. In Israel someone may need to get a permit before digging for artifacts and to provide detailed reports of their work in order for scholars to be able to have a chance to study reports of the finds.
                    >
                    >David Q. Hall
                    >Port Charlotte, FL
                    >
                    >________________________________
                    >
                    >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >------------------------------------
                    >
                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Peter T. Daniels
                    Last year, when I spoke at a workshop at Haifa University, we were going to go to Acco in the morning of my sightseeing day and Nazareth in the afternoon,
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jul 16, 2013
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                      Last year, when I spoke at a workshop at Haifa University, we were going to go to Acco in the morning of my sightseeing day and Nazareth in the afternoon, where I was _so_ looking forward to being offered sawdust from the floor of Joseph's workshop, that had been sawed by Jesus himself ... unfortunately, the lovely lunch in an excellent Arab restaurant in a lovely corner of Acco used up most of the afternoon! 

                      I didn't even think of stones from the Sea of Galilee that He might have trodden.
                      --
                      Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
                      Jersey City


                      >________________________________
                      > From: Joe Zias <joezias@...>
                      >To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                      >Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 2:27 PM
                      >Subject: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Licit Antiquities Trade
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      >up until a short time ago the 'BAR Crowd' were selling stones from their  Tzuba 'Cave of John the Baptist on EBay. it.s gone now, evidently sold out. Price was ca- 40 US dollars.

                      >Joe Zias www.joezias.org
                      >
                      >Anthropology/Paleopathology/Guide
                      >
                      >Science and Antiquity - Jerusalem
                      >Jerusalem, Israel
                      >
                      >>________________________________
                      >> From: David Hall <dqhall59@...>
                      >>To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                      >>Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 7:43 PM
                      >>Subject: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Licit Antiquities Trade
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> 
                      >>Niels:
                      >>
                      >>It might be possible to obtain an antiquity collection at an estate sale.  Some people collected antiquities as they may be considered rare and were supposed to appreciate in value over the long term.  Sometimes a large number of antiquities or fakes might appear on the market depressing the price of certain types of antiquities.  I found something listed as an "Iron Age" dipper juglet on Ebay at auction with a starting price of 99 cents (.99 US dollar).
                      >>
                      >>http://tinyurl.com/kgsm24k
                      >>
                      >>A 3000 year old "Temple of Sheba" inscription was listed at 95 cents.  I suppose it is difficult to find an honest antiquities dealer.
                      >>
                      >>There were "stones from the Sea of Galilee where Jesus was reported as having walked" listed on Ebay for $9.99.  It is difficult to sell stones of dull and earthy appearance at any price.
                      >>
                      >>David Q. Hall
                      >>Port Charlotte
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Niels Peter Lemche
                      Well, I have seen sealed bottles with holy land air within, but none of this is really a problem. It is a problem if you go to google earth a zoom in at Apamea
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jul 16, 2013
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                        Well, I have seen sealed bottles with holy land air within, but none of this is really a problem. It is a problem if you go to google earth a zoom in at Apamea in Syria and se the many hundred holes dug by thieves. A major sites has been wasted and probably totally destroyed. It is organized crime, and there is a market for them, evidently.

                        But you can check for yourself.

                        Niels Peter Lemche

                        -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
                        Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Peter T. Daniels
                        Sendt: den 16 juli 2013 21:19
                        Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                        Emne: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Licit Antiquities Trade

                        Last year, when I spoke at a workshop at Haifa University, we were going to go to Acco in the morning of my sightseeing day and Nazareth in the afternoon, where I was _so_ looking forward to being offered sawdust from the floor of Joseph's workshop, that had been sawed by Jesus himself ... unfortunately, the lovely lunch in an excellent Arab restaurant in a lovely corner of Acco used up most of the afternoon! 

                        I didn't even think of stones from the Sea of Galilee that He might have trodden.
                        --
                        Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
                        Jersey City


                        >________________________________
                        > From: Joe Zias <joezias@...>
                        >To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                        >Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 2:27 PM
                        >Subject: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Licit Antiquities Trade
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        >up until a short time ago the 'BAR Crowd' were selling stones from their  Tzuba 'Cave of John the Baptist on EBay. it.s gone now, evidently sold out. Price was ca- 40 US dollars.

                        >Joe Zias www.joezias.org
                        >
                        >Anthropology/Paleopathology/Guide
                        >
                        >Science and Antiquity - Jerusalem
                        >Jerusalem, Israel
                        >
                        >>________________________________
                        >> From: David Hall <dqhall59@...>
                        >>To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                        >>Sent: Tuesday, July 16, 2013 7:43 PM
                        >>Subject: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Licit Antiquities Trade
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> 
                        >>Niels:
                        >>
                        >>It might be possible to obtain an antiquity collection at an estate sale.  Some people collected antiquities as they may be considered rare and were supposed to appreciate in value over the long term.  Sometimes a large number of antiquities or fakes might appear on the market depressing the price of certain types of antiquities.  I found something listed as an "Iron Age" dipper juglet on Ebay at auction with a starting price of 99 cents (.99 US dollar).
                        >>
                        >>http://tinyurl.com/kgsm24k
                        >>
                        >>A 3000 year old "Temple of Sheba" inscription was listed at 95 cents.  I suppose it is difficult to find an honest antiquities dealer.
                        >>
                        >>There were "stones from the Sea of Galilee where Jesus was reported as having walked" listed on Ebay for $9.99.  It is difficult to sell stones of dull and earthy appearance at any price.
                        >>
                        >>David Q. Hall
                        >>Port Charlotte
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                        ------------------------------------

                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                      • robtyenow
                        Dear Niels, Your comment takes us well off topic I think, thus I hope I may be permitted just one posting in defence of 19th century British gentlemen. (Of
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jul 17, 2013
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                          Dear Niels,

                          Your comment takes us well off topic I think, thus I hope I may be permitted just one posting in defence of 19th century British gentlemen. (Of course I agree with your main point, the preservation of sites for properly conducted excavation)

                          You write:

                          NPL > British officers of the Peninsula war were famous for looting. As a joke (non-verified) went, they sometime in the middle of the last century……

                          I think we should take a more holistic approach to past cultures, and remember the monumental achievements of historians of that 19th century period, many of whom were entirely unpaid military men or civil servants, who worked for the love of scholarship, for instance the translations of Major Raverty, Sir H M Elliot (dead at 45 leaving about 4,000 pages of translation), the work of Codrington, Princep, Rogers, Cunningham etc.

                          It has long puzzled me that a small band of private enthusiasts achieved so much in the 19th century, yet in the later 20th century, the work of translation seems to have slowed to a trickle amongst a ballooning and well funded professional culture.

                          Perhaps I may add a small remembrance too of a 17th century Yorkshire soldier and amateur historian, General Fairfax, whose first act when he took Oxford for parliament in 1646 was to send guards to the Bodleian Library to protect it against looting?

                          I would say more, in defence of dead amateurs and of a related complex matter, the very grave dangers of the ongoing trend of professionalization of historical studies. But please contact me off group if you wish to hear it.

                          Regards

                          Rob Tye, York, UK

                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


                          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Dear Trudy,
                          >
                          > When I as a child visited Certosa di Firenze, a major monastery, the monk who showed us the place stopped in front of some empty spaces at the wall: The paintings which belong here you can find at the Louvre, with a precise indication of where in Louvre to find them. It did not begin with the Nazis; it is a very old trade. The people who brought these paintings to the Louvre were French officers from the Napoleonic war. Likewise, British officers of the Peninsula war were famous for looting. As a joke (non-verified) went, they sometime in the middle of the last century opened granddad's coffin in the attic. At the top they found a Rafael. It had to be restored, and the chief conservator came out with his golden hammer, and ... right down through the painting. The chef curator had not done it for many years.
                          >
                          > But the bad ways of yesterday do not endorse modern "practices".
                          >
                          > Niels Peter Lemche
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