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Re: [ANE-2] Re: Data on Egyptian and Mesopotamian weights

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  • Raz Kletter
    Dear Richerd, and ANE Members, The offline discussion has now become online, so I re-send (below) my earlier offline email to Richard. I don t want list
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 11, 2013
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      Dear Richerd, and ANE Members,
      The offline discussion has now become online, so I re-send (below) my
      earlier offline email to Richard.
      I don't want list members to think that I am ingracious and do not try to
      contribute to list members.
      People may hold onto notions that Petrie held 120 years ago, when finding
      biblical standards like "Beqa" in Early Dynastic Egypt, and may
      seek correlations between various "standards" just based on weight, but I
      do not recommend these things.
      IN any case, while the Judean weights are 8-7 centuries BC, for accuracy in
      ancient ANE weights they are the best evidence there is. This is because,
      first they come from a well defined, limited area in time and space
      (belonging to one clear system- while in vast Egypt or Mesopotamia systems
      could change with time/region); and second, they are mostly inscribed so
      the units ("standards") are proven.
      Concerning economic mode (hacksilber) and techniques (scales) there was
      no great difference between the Bronze and Iron Ages in ANE, before the
      invention of coins.
      Best,
      Raz Kletter
      University of Helsinki


      "Dear Richard, and interested colleagues,
      Petrie and Hemmy are old literature. There are newer studies but few deal
      with accuracy of weights in depth. A problem is how to estimate accuracy
      (how to define an ancient 'norm' - taking all the weights assumed and
      working with averages? taking just inscribed weights or weights of good
      preservation? working with statistcis? etc).
      For Egypt try: Janssen 1975, Commodity Prices, shows fluctuation of prices
      of up to 10% as acceptable in Egypt. Tanja Pommerening 2005, Die
      Altagyptiche Hohlmasse, on Capacity measures and measuring vessels - not on
      weights.Cour Marty, M. 1991. Weights in Ancient Egypt. in Schoske, S. ed.
      SAK 4. Akten des vierten internatyionalen Agyptologische Kongress :
      137-145.Cour-Marty, M. 1990. Les poids Egyptiens. Cahiers de recherches de
      l'institute de papyrologie et d'Egyptologie de lille 12:17-55.
      Mesopotamia:Powell, M. A. 1971. Sumerian Numeration and Metrology, PhD; and
      1987-90 Masse und Gewichte RLA 7: 508-517.Studies by Italian scholars:
      Archi, A. (eg on Ebla weights, Eblaitica 1987 ed C.H. Gordon:47-86); N.F.
      Parisi; K.M. Petruso; M. Zaccagnini; M. Fales (on Neo Assyrian Weights).
      Judah:
      R. Kletter 1998. Economic Keystones. London. - table p. 76. The nice thing
      is that many Judean weights are inscribed so standards are clear. The basic
      unit is shekel=11.33g. Larger weights (2,4,8 shekels) are accurate, with
      average deviation in realation to the 1 shekel less than 1 percent. Of
      course absolute deviations are much higher. Smaller weights- shekel
      particles - are very inaccurate (table p. 79). They tend to be heavier than
      the norm, I think due to the production process. I add some papers - the
      bibliographies may be helpful. Another venue is to try estimate accuracy
      of ancient scales, but again few studies are available.
      "
      2013/7/11 richardwsproat <rws@...>

      > **
      >
      >
      > Thanks, though the Judean weights would presumably be much much later than
      > the Indus weights, right?
      >
      > The reason for specifically focusing on third millenium bronze age
      > cultures is to check the claim that has often been made that the Indus
      > weights were so much more accurate than contemporaneous systems (such as
      > Egypt or Mesopotamia).
      >
      > Richard Sproat
      > New York, NY
      >
      > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > You might want to check the entries in the bibliography of the article
      > "Weights and Measures" in the Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary.� This may be
      > somewhat dated by now, but it's a place to start.
      > > � Bibliography Aharoni, Y. 1966. The Use of Hieratic Numerals in Hebrew
      > Ostraca and the Shekel Weights. BASOR 184: 13��"19.
      > > ��"��"��". 1971. A 40-Shekel Weight with a Hieratic Numeral. BASOR 201:
      > 35��"36.
      > > Ben-David, A. 1966. The Standard of the Sheqel. PEQ 98: 168��"69.
      > > ��"��"��". 1968. The Talmud Was Right! The Weight of the Biblical
      > Sheqel. PEQ 100: 145��"47.
      > > ��"��"��". 1971. Jewish and Roman Bronze and Copper Coins: Their
      > Reciprocal Relations in Mishnah and Talmud from Herod the Great to Trajan
      > and Hadrian. PEQ 103: 109��"29.
      > > ��"��"��". 1978. The Hebrew-Phoenician Cubit. PEQ 110: 27��"28.
      > > ��"��"��". 1979. The Philistine Talent from Ashdod, the Ugarit Talent
      > from Ras Shamra, The "PYM" and the "N-���-P." UF 11: 29��"45.
      > > Diringer, D. 1942. The Early Hebrew Weights Found at Lachish. PEQ 74:
      > 82��"103.
      > > ��"��"��". 1958. Weights. Pp. 227��"30 in DOTT.
      > > Foxhall, L., and Forbes, H. A. 1982. Sitometreia: The Role of Grain as a
      > Staple Food in Classical Antiquity. Chiron 12: 41��"90.
      > > Heltzer, M. 1976. Goods, Prices and the Organization of Trade in Ugarit.
      > Wiesbaden.
      > > Inge, C. H. 1941. Post-Scriptum. PEQ 73: 106��"9.
      > > Kaplan, J. 1987. A Lead Weight from Ashdod with Jewish Symbols. IEJ 37:
      > 50��"53.
      > > Kaufman, A. S. 1984. Determining the Length of the Medium Cubit. PEQ
      > 116: 120��"32.
      > > Kaufman, I. T. 1967. New Evidence for Hieratic Numerals on Hebrew
      > Weights. BASOR 188: 39��"41.
      > > Kerkhof, V. I. 1966. An Inscribed Stone Weight from Shechem. BASOR 184:
      > 20��"21.
      > > Krauss, S. 1911. Masse, Gewichte, M��nzen. Vol. 2, pp. 382��"416 in
      > Talmudische Arch��ologie. Leipzig.
      > > Lifshitz, M. 1976. Bleigewichte aus Pal��stina und Syrien. ZDPV 92:
      > 168��"87.
      > > Meshorer, Y. 1970. A Stone Weight from the Reign of Herod. IEJ 20:
      > 97��"98.
      > > Parise, N. F. 1970��"71. Per uno studio del sistema ponderale ugaritico.
      > Dialoghi di Archeologia 4: 3��"36.
      > > ��"��"��". 1984. Unit� ponderali e rapporti di cambio nella Siria del
      > nord. Pp. 125��"38 in Circulation of Goods in Non-Palatial Context in the
      > Ancient Near East, ed. A. Archi. Incunabula Graeca 72. Rome.
      > > Petrie, W. M. F. 1892. The Tomb Cutters Cubits at Jerusalem. PEQ 15:
      > 28��"35.
      > > ��"��"��". 1894. Inductive Metrology, The Recovery of Ancient Measures
      > from the Monuments. London.
      > > Pilcher, E. J. 1912. Weights of Ancient Palestine. PEQ 44: 136��"44,
      > 178��"95.
      > > ��"��"��". 1916. Hebrew Weights in the Book of Samuel. PEQ 48: 77��"85.
      > > Powell, M. A. 1979. Ancient Mesopotamian Weight Metrology: Methods,
      > Problems and Perspectives. Pp. 71��"109 in Studies in Honor of Tom B.
      > Jones, ed. M. A. Powell and R. H. Sack. AOAT 203. Kevelaer.
      > > Pritchard, J. B. 1959. Inscribed Weight. Pp. 29��"30 in Hebrew
      > Inscriptions and Stamps from Gibeon. Philadelphia.
      > > Scott, R. B. Y. 1958. The Hebrew Cubit. JBL 77: 205��"14.
      > > ��"��"��". 1959. Weights and Measures of the Bible. BA 22: 22��"40.
      > > ��"��"��". 1965. The Scale Weights from Ophel. PEQ 97: 128��"39.
      > > ��"��"��". 1970. The N-���-P Weights from Judah. BASOR 200: 62��"66.
      > > Shany, E. 1967. A New Unpublished "Beq��a" Weight in the Pontif. Bibl.
      > Institute, Jerusalem. PEQ 99: 54��"55.
      > > Spaer, A. 1982. A Group of Iron Age Stone Weights. IEJ 32: 251.
      > > Viedebantt, O. 1917. Forschungen zur Metrologie des Altertums.
      > Abhandlungen der philologisch-historischen Klasse der K��nigl. S��chsischen
      > Gesellschaft der Wissenschaften34/3. Leipzig.
      > > Zaccagnini, C. 1978. A Note on the Talent at Alalah (AT 401). Iraq 40:
      > 67��"69.
      > > �
      > >
      > > george
      > >
      > > gfsomsel
      > >
      > > Papua, New Guinea
      > >
      > > � search for truth, hear truth, learn truth,
      > > � love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
      > > � defend the truth till death.
      > >
      > > - Jan Hus
      > > _________
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > >Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic
      > Messages in this topic (6)
      > > >Recent Activity:
      > > >Visit Your Group
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      > > >Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest ��� Unsubscribe ��� Terms of Use ���
      > Send us Feedback
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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • robtyenow
      Dear Raz (if I may) ... I believe this perhaps oversimplifies your position, since in your excellent study of the JILS etc you present Petrie in a rather
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 12, 2013
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        Dear Raz (if I may)

        > People may hold onto notions that Petrie held 120 years ago, when finding biblical standards like "Beqa" in Early Dynastic Egypt, and may seek correlations between various "standards" just based on weight, but I do not recommend these things.

        I believe this perhaps oversimplifies your position, since in your excellent study of the JILS etc you present Petrie in a rather different light, as apparently marking a complete departure from this just-based-on-weight methodology (there called comparable metrology)

        More importantly however, I would wish to challenge your histography of modern metrological work, which I fear carries a kind of misguided historicism within it. Of course, this is not a personal criticism, as your opinions seem to me to be much in line with Petruso, Powell and indeed the great majority of workers in the field today

        I do not accept that meteorologists have ever evolved through the separate intellectual stages of Comparable Metrology, Mathematical Metrology etc that you posit. Rather I would say there always have been foolishly overconfident individuals in the field, and other, more cautious and thoughtful individuals. Pondering metrological problems around 1720, long before your era of comparable metrology, a very intelligent mathematician like Arbuthnot was already very obviously aware of the need to seek solid evidence in time and space. Actually such matters would not have escaped al-Biruni either, investigating historical weight standards around 1020.

        This is not just a theoretical complaint about excessive historicism in metrological histography however. In my experience, compartmentalisation of modern academic life, coupled with commonly seen excessively dismissive attitudes in line with these modern metrological attitudes, will very regularly lead contemporary researchers to casually dismiss even rather solid evidence, evidence which is well grounded in time and space.

        Regards

        Rob Tye, York, UK

        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Raz Kletter <kletterr@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear Richerd, and ANE Members,
        > The offline discussion has now become online, so I re-send (below) my
        > earlier offline email to Richard.
        > I don't want list members to think that I am ingracious and do not try to
        > contribute to list members.
        > People may hold onto notions that Petrie held 120 years ago, when finding
        > biblical standards like "Beqa" in Early Dynastic Egypt, and may
        > seek correlations between various "standards" just based on weight, but I
        > do not recommend these things.
        > IN any case, while the Judean weights are 8-7 centuries BC, for accuracy in
        > ancient ANE weights they are the best evidence there is. This is because,
        > first they come from a well defined, limited area in time and space
        > (belonging to one clear system- while in vast Egypt or Mesopotamia systems
        > could change with time/region); and second, they are mostly inscribed so
        > the units ("standards") are proven.
        > Concerning economic mode (hacksilber) and techniques (scales) there was
        > no great difference between the Bronze and Iron Ages in ANE, before the
        > invention of coins.
        > Best,
        > Raz Kletter
        > University of Helsinki
        >
        >
        > "Dear Richard, and interested colleagues,
        > Petrie and Hemmy are old literature. There are newer studies but few deal
        > with accuracy of weights in depth. A problem is how to estimate accuracy
        > (how to define an ancient 'norm' - taking all the weights assumed and
        > working with averages? taking just inscribed weights or weights of good
        > preservation? working with statistcis? etc).
        > For Egypt try: Janssen 1975, Commodity Prices, shows fluctuation of prices
        > of up to 10% as acceptable in Egypt. Tanja Pommerening 2005, Die
        > Altagyptiche Hohlmasse, on Capacity measures and measuring vessels - not on
        > weights.Cour Marty, M. 1991. Weights in Ancient Egypt. in Schoske, S. ed.
        > SAK 4. Akten des vierten internatyionalen Agyptologische Kongress :
        > 137-145.Cour-Marty, M. 1990. Les poids Egyptiens. Cahiers de recherches de
        > l'institute de papyrologie et d'Egyptologie de lille 12:17-55.
        > Mesopotamia:Powell, M. A. 1971. Sumerian Numeration and Metrology, PhD; and
        > 1987-90 Masse und Gewichte RLA 7: 508-517.Studies by Italian scholars:
        > Archi, A. (eg on Ebla weights, Eblaitica 1987 ed C.H. Gordon:47-86); N.F.
        > Parisi; K.M. Petruso; M. Zaccagnini; M. Fales (on Neo Assyrian Weights).
        > Judah:
        > R. Kletter 1998. Economic Keystones. London. - table p. 76. The nice thing
        > is that many Judean weights are inscribed so standards are clear. The basic
        > unit is shekel=11.33g. Larger weights (2,4,8 shekels) are accurate, with
        > average deviation in realation to the 1 shekel less than 1 percent. Of
        > course absolute deviations are much higher. Smaller weights- shekel
        > particles - are very inaccurate (table p. 79). They tend to be heavier than
        > the norm, I think due to the production process. I add some papers - the
        > bibliographies may be helpful. Another venue is to try estimate accuracy
        > of ancient scales, but again few studies are available.
        > "
        > 2013/7/11 richardwsproat <rws@...>
        >
        > > **
        > >
        > >
        > > Thanks, though the Judean weights would presumably be much much later than
        > > the Indus weights, right?
        > >
        > > The reason for specifically focusing on third millenium bronze age
        > > cultures is to check the claim that has often been made that the Indus
        > > weights were so much more accurate than contemporaneous systems (such as
        > > Egypt or Mesopotamia).
        > >
        > > Richard Sproat
        > > New York, NY
        > >
        > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > > You might want to check the entries in the bibliography of the article
        > > "Weights and Measures" in the Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary. This may be
        > > somewhat dated by now, but it's a place to start.
        > > > Â Bibliography Aharoni, Y. 1966. The Use of Hieratic Numerals in Hebrew
        > > Ostraca and the Shekel Weights. BASOR 184: 13â€"19.
        > > > â€"â€"â€". 1971. A 40-Shekel Weight with a Hieratic Numeral. BASOR 201:
        > > 35â€"36.
        > > > Ben-David, A. 1966. The Standard of the Sheqel. PEQ 98: 168â€"69.
        > > > â€"â€"â€". 1968. The Talmud Was Right! The Weight of the Biblical
        > > Sheqel. PEQ 100: 145â€"47.
        > > > â€"â€"â€". 1971. Jewish and Roman Bronze and Copper Coins: Their
        > > Reciprocal Relations in Mishnah and Talmud from Herod the Great to Trajan
        > > and Hadrian. PEQ 103: 109â€"29.
        > > > â€"â€"â€". 1978. The Hebrew-Phoenician Cubit. PEQ 110: 27â€"28.
        > > > â€"â€"â€". 1979. The Philistine Talent from Ashdod, the Ugarit Talent
        > > from Ras Shamra, The "PYM" and the "N-á¹¢-P." UF 11: 29â€"45.
        > > > Diringer, D. 1942. The Early Hebrew Weights Found at Lachish. PEQ 74:
        > > 82â€"103.
        > > > â€"â€"â€". 1958. Weights. Pp. 227â€"30 in DOTT.
        > > > Foxhall, L., and Forbes, H. A. 1982. Sitometreia: The Role of Grain as a
        > > Staple Food in Classical Antiquity. Chiron 12: 41â€"90.
        > > > Heltzer, M. 1976. Goods, Prices and the Organization of Trade in Ugarit.
        > > Wiesbaden.
        > > > Inge, C. H. 1941. Post-Scriptum. PEQ 73: 106â€"9.
        > > > Kaplan, J. 1987. A Lead Weight from Ashdod with Jewish Symbols. IEJ 37:
        > > 50â€"53.
        > > > Kaufman, A. S. 1984. Determining the Length of the Medium Cubit. PEQ
        > > 116: 120â€"32.
        > > > Kaufman, I. T. 1967. New Evidence for Hieratic Numerals on Hebrew
        > > Weights. BASOR 188: 39â€"41.
        > > > Kerkhof, V. I. 1966. An Inscribed Stone Weight from Shechem. BASOR 184:
        > > 20â€"21.
        > > > Krauss, S. 1911. Masse, Gewichte, Münzen. Vol. 2, pp. 382â€"416 in
        > > Talmudische Archäologie. Leipzig.
        > > > Lifshitz, M. 1976. Bleigewichte aus Palästina und Syrien. ZDPV 92:
        > > 168â€"87.
        > > > Meshorer, Y. 1970. A Stone Weight from the Reign of Herod. IEJ 20:
        > > 97â€"98.
        > > > Parise, N. F. 1970â€"71. Per uno studio del sistema ponderale ugaritico.
        > > Dialoghi di Archeologia 4: 3â€"36.
        > > > â€"â€"â€". 1984. Unità ponderali e rapporti di cambio nella Siria del
        > > nord. Pp. 125â€"38 in Circulation of Goods in Non-Palatial Context in the
        > > Ancient Near East, ed. A. Archi. Incunabula Graeca 72. Rome.
        > > > Petrie, W. M. F. 1892. The Tomb Cutters Cubits at Jerusalem. PEQ 15:
        > > 28â€"35.
        > > > â€"â€"â€". 1894. Inductive Metrology, The Recovery of Ancient Measures
        > > from the Monuments. London.
        > > > Pilcher, E. J. 1912. Weights of Ancient Palestine. PEQ 44: 136â€"44,
        > > 178â€"95.
        > > > â€"â€"â€". 1916. Hebrew Weights in the Book of Samuel. PEQ 48: 77â€"85.
        > > > Powell, M. A. 1979. Ancient Mesopotamian Weight Metrology: Methods,
        > > Problems and Perspectives. Pp. 71â€"109 in Studies in Honor of Tom B.
        > > Jones, ed. M. A. Powell and R. H. Sack. AOAT 203. Kevelaer.
        > > > Pritchard, J. B. 1959. Inscribed Weight. Pp. 29â€"30 in Hebrew
        > > Inscriptions and Stamps from Gibeon. Philadelphia.
        > > > Scott, R. B. Y. 1958. The Hebrew Cubit. JBL 77: 205â€"14.
        > > > â€"â€"â€". 1959. Weights and Measures of the Bible. BA 22: 22â€"40.
        > > > â€"â€"â€". 1965. The Scale Weights from Ophel. PEQ 97: 128â€"39.
        > > > â€"â€"â€". 1970. The N-á¹¢-P Weights from Judah. BASOR 200: 62â€"66.
        > > > Shany, E. 1967. A New Unpublished "Beqʿa" Weight in the Pontif. Bibl.
        > > Institute, Jerusalem. PEQ 99: 54â€"55.
        > > > Spaer, A. 1982. A Group of Iron Age Stone Weights. IEJ 32: 251.
        > > > Viedebantt, O. 1917. Forschungen zur Metrologie des Altertums.
        > > Abhandlungen der philologisch-historischen Klasse der Königl. Sächsischen
        > > Gesellschaft der Wissenschaften34/3. Leipzig.
        > > > Zaccagnini, C. 1978. A Note on the Talent at Alalah (AT 401). Iraq 40:
        > > 67â€"69.
        > > > Â
        > > >
        > > > george
        > > >
        > > > gfsomsel
        > > >
        > > > Papua, New Guinea
        > > >
        > > > Â search for truth, hear truth, learn truth,
        > > > Â love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
        > > > Â defend the truth till death.
        > > >
        > > > - Jan Hus
        > > > _________
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > >Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic
        > > Messages in this topic (6)
        > > > >Recent Activity:
        > > > >Visit Your Group
        > > > >
        > > > >Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest • Unsubscribe • Terms of Use •
        > > Send us Feedback
        > > > >.
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Raz Kletter
        Dear Robert, Petrie stands head and shoulders above others, a real genious. I am afraid there was a misunderstanding, if my words were read as criticism of
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 12, 2013
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          Dear Robert,
          Petrie stands head and shoulders above others, a real genious. I am
          afraid there was a misunderstanding, if my words were read as criticism of
          Petrie.
          Maybe I oversimplified my position (at least it is mine :); but in your
          complaint I don't recognize my words. I did not speak about 'intellectual
          stages' in the history of research: one time period is not intellectually /
          morally better, only the data improves and new ideas appear (not
          necessarily better). I did not read Arbuthnot and al-Birani, and have no
          criticism on them as valuable historical metrologists. But if (as example)
          the first Judean Iron Age weight was discovered only in the end of the 19th
          century AD, both cannot contribute much to understanding the Judean Iron
          Age weight system.
          One should take the data as updated as possible, not the data as known in
          Petrie's time - this is what I meant, it was not criticism on Petrie.
          I hope it clarifies; I don't see a debate here. If, as you say, we are in
          similar positions to Powell, Parisi, Zaccagnini, Petruso, Peyronel, Fales,
          Rahmstrof, and other metrologists - we are in very good company indeed.
          Best,
          Raz Kletter
          University of Helsinki


          2013/7/12 robtyenow <robtyenow@...>

          > **
          >
          >
          > Dear Raz (if I may)
          >
          > > People may hold onto notions that Petrie held 120 years ago, when
          > finding biblical standards like "Beqa" in Early Dynastic Egypt, and may
          > seek correlations between various "standards" just based on weight, but I
          > do not recommend these things.
          >
          > I believe this perhaps oversimplifies your position, since in your
          > excellent study of the JILS etc you present Petrie in a rather different
          > light, as apparently marking a complete departure from this
          > just-based-on-weight methodology (there called comparable metrology)
          >
          > More importantly however, I would wish to challenge your histography of
          > modern metrological work, which I fear carries a kind of misguided
          > historicism within it. Of course, this is not a personal criticism, as your
          > opinions seem to me to be much in line with Petruso, Powell and indeed the
          > great majority of workers in the field today
          >
          > I do not accept that meteorologists have ever evolved through the separate
          > intellectual stages of Comparable Metrology, Mathematical Metrology etc
          > that you posit. Rather I would say there always have been foolishly
          > overconfident individuals in the field, and other, more cautious and
          > thoughtful individuals. Pondering metrological problems around 1720, long
          > before your era of comparable metrology, a very intelligent mathematician
          > like Arbuthnot was already very obviously aware of the need to seek solid
          > evidence in time and space. Actually such matters would not have escaped
          > al-Biruni either, investigating historical weight standards around 1020.
          >
          > This is not just a theoretical complaint about excessive historicism in
          > metrological histography however. In my experience, compartmentalisation of
          > modern academic life, coupled with commonly seen excessively dismissive
          > attitudes in line with these modern metrological attitudes, will very
          > regularly lead contemporary researchers to casually dismiss even rather
          > solid evidence, evidence which is well grounded in time and space.
          >
          > Regards
          >
          > Rob Tye, York, UK
          >
          > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          >
          > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Raz Kletter <kletterr@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Dear Richerd, and ANE Members,
          > > The offline discussion has now become online, so I re-send (below) my
          > > earlier offline email to Richard.
          > > I don't want list members to think that I am ingracious and do not try to
          > > contribute to list members.
          > > People may hold onto notions that Petrie held 120 years ago, when finding
          > > biblical standards like "Beqa" in Early Dynastic Egypt, and may
          > > seek correlations between various "standards" just based on weight, but I
          > > do not recommend these things.
          > > IN any case, while the Judean weights are 8-7 centuries BC, for accuracy
          > in
          > > ancient ANE weights they are the best evidence there is. This is because,
          > > first they come from a well defined, limited area in time and space
          > > (belonging to one clear system- while in vast Egypt or Mesopotamia
          > systems
          > > could change with time/region); and second, they are mostly inscribed so
          > > the units ("standards") are proven.
          > > Concerning economic mode (hacksilber) and techniques (scales) there was
          > > no great difference between the Bronze and Iron Ages in ANE, before the
          > > invention of coins.
          > > Best,
          > > Raz Kletter
          > > University of Helsinki
          > >
          > >
          > > "Dear Richard, and interested colleagues,
          > > Petrie and Hemmy are old literature. There are newer studies but few deal
          > > with accuracy of weights in depth. A problem is how to estimate accuracy
          > > (how to define an ancient 'norm' - taking all the weights assumed and
          > > working with averages? taking just inscribed weights or weights of good
          > > preservation? working with statistcis? etc).
          > > For Egypt try: Janssen 1975, Commodity Prices, shows fluctuation of
          > prices
          > > of up to 10% as acceptable in Egypt. Tanja Pommerening 2005, Die
          > > Altagyptiche Hohlmasse, on Capacity measures and measuring vessels - not
          > on
          > > weights.Cour Marty, M. 1991. Weights in Ancient Egypt. in Schoske, S. ed.
          > > SAK 4. Akten des vierten internatyionalen Agyptologische Kongress :
          > > 137-145.Cour-Marty, M. 1990. Les poids Egyptiens. Cahiers de recherches
          > de
          > > l'institute de papyrologie et d'Egyptologie de lille 12:17-55.
          > > Mesopotamia:Powell, M. A. 1971. Sumerian Numeration and Metrology, PhD;
          > and
          > > 1987-90 Masse und Gewichte RLA 7: 508-517.Studies by Italian scholars:
          > > Archi, A. (eg on Ebla weights, Eblaitica 1987 ed C.H. Gordon:47-86); N.F.
          > > Parisi; K.M. Petruso; M. Zaccagnini; M. Fales (on Neo Assyrian Weights).
          > > Judah:
          > > R. Kletter 1998. Economic Keystones. London. - table p. 76. The nice
          > thing
          > > is that many Judean weights are inscribed so standards are clear. The
          > basic
          > > unit is shekel=11.33g. Larger weights (2,4,8 shekels) are accurate, with
          > > average deviation in realation to the 1 shekel less than 1 percent. Of
          > > course absolute deviations are much higher. Smaller weights- shekel
          > > particles - are very inaccurate (table p. 79). They tend to be heavier
          > than
          > > the norm, I think due to the production process. I add some papers - the
          > > bibliographies may be helpful. Another venue is to try estimate accuracy
          > > of ancient scales, but again few studies are available.
          > > "
          > > 2013/7/11 richardwsproat <rws@...>
          > >
          > > > **
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > Thanks, though the Judean weights would presumably be much much later
          > than
          > > > the Indus weights, right?
          > > >
          > > > The reason for specifically focusing on third millenium bronze age
          > > > cultures is to check the claim that has often been made that the Indus
          > > > weights were so much more accurate than contemporaneous systems (such
          > as
          > > > Egypt or Mesopotamia).
          > > >
          > > > Richard Sproat
          > > > New York, NY
          > > >
          > > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@> wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > You might want to check the entries in the bibliography of the
          > article
          > > > "Weights and Measures" in the Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary.� This may
          > be
          > > > somewhat dated by now, but it's a place to start.
          > > > > � Bibliography Aharoni, Y. 1966. The Use of Hieratic Numerals in
          > Hebrew
          > > > Ostraca and the Shekel Weights. BASOR 184: 13��"19.
          > > > > ��"��"��". 1971. A 40-Shekel Weight with a Hieratic Numeral. BASOR
          > 201:
          > > > 35��"36.
          > > > > Ben-David, A. 1966. The Standard of the Sheqel. PEQ 98: 168��"69.
          > > > > ��"��"��". 1968. The Talmud Was Right! The Weight of the Biblical
          > > > Sheqel. PEQ 100: 145��"47.
          > > > > ��"��"��". 1971. Jewish and Roman Bronze and Copper Coins: Their
          > > > Reciprocal Relations in Mishnah and Talmud from Herod the Great to
          > Trajan
          > > > and Hadrian. PEQ 103: 109��"29.
          > > > > ��"��"��". 1978. The Hebrew-Phoenician Cubit. PEQ 110: 27��"28.
          > > > > ��"��"��". 1979. The Philistine Talent from Ashdod, the Ugarit Talent
          > > > from Ras Shamra, The "PYM" and the "N-���-P." UF 11: 29��"45.
          > > > > Diringer, D. 1942. The Early Hebrew Weights Found at Lachish. PEQ 74:
          > > > 82��"103.
          > > > > ��"��"��". 1958. Weights. Pp. 227��"30 in DOTT.
          > > > > Foxhall, L., and Forbes, H. A. 1982. Sitometreia: The Role of Grain
          > as a
          > > > Staple Food in Classical Antiquity. Chiron 12: 41��"90.
          > > > > Heltzer, M. 1976. Goods, Prices and the Organization of Trade in
          > Ugarit.
          > > > Wiesbaden.
          > > > > Inge, C. H. 1941. Post-Scriptum. PEQ 73: 106��"9.
          > > > > Kaplan, J. 1987. A Lead Weight from Ashdod with Jewish Symbols. IEJ
          > 37:
          > > > 50��"53.
          > > > > Kaufman, A. S. 1984. Determining the Length of the Medium Cubit. PEQ
          > > > 116: 120��"32.
          > > > > Kaufman, I. T. 1967. New Evidence for Hieratic Numerals on Hebrew
          > > > Weights. BASOR 188: 39��"41.
          > > > > Kerkhof, V. I. 1966. An Inscribed Stone Weight from Shechem. BASOR
          > 184:
          > > > 20��"21.
          > > > > Krauss, S. 1911. Masse, Gewichte, M��nzen. Vol. 2, pp. 382��"416 in
          > > > Talmudische Arch��ologie. Leipzig.
          > > > > Lifshitz, M. 1976. Bleigewichte aus Pal��stina und Syrien. ZDPV 92:
          > > > 168��"87.
          > > > > Meshorer, Y. 1970. A Stone Weight from the Reign of Herod. IEJ 20:
          > > > 97��"98.
          > > > > Parise, N. F. 1970��"71. Per uno studio del sistema ponderale
          > ugaritico.
          > > > Dialoghi di Archeologia 4: 3��"36.
          > > > > ��"��"��". 1984. Unit� ponderali e rapporti di cambio nella Siria del
          > > > nord. Pp. 125��"38 in Circulation of Goods in Non-Palatial Context in
          > the
          > > > Ancient Near East, ed. A. Archi. Incunabula Graeca 72. Rome.
          > > > > Petrie, W. M. F. 1892. The Tomb Cutters Cubits at Jerusalem. PEQ 15:
          > > > 28��"35.
          > > > > ��"��"��". 1894. Inductive Metrology, The Recovery of Ancient
          > Measures
          > > > from the Monuments. London.
          > > > > Pilcher, E. J. 1912. Weights of Ancient Palestine. PEQ 44: 136��"44,
          > > > 178��"95.
          > > > > ��"��"��". 1916. Hebrew Weights in the Book of Samuel. PEQ 48:
          > 77��"85.
          > > > > Powell, M. A. 1979. Ancient Mesopotamian Weight Metrology: Methods,
          > > > Problems and Perspectives. Pp. 71��"109 in Studies in Honor of Tom B.
          > > > Jones, ed. M. A. Powell and R. H. Sack. AOAT 203. Kevelaer.
          > > > > Pritchard, J. B. 1959. Inscribed Weight. Pp. 29��"30 in Hebrew
          > > > Inscriptions and Stamps from Gibeon. Philadelphia.
          > > > > Scott, R. B. Y. 1958. The Hebrew Cubit. JBL 77: 205��"14.
          > > > > ��"��"��". 1959. Weights and Measures of the Bible. BA 22: 22��"40.
          > > > > ��"��"��". 1965. The Scale Weights from Ophel. PEQ 97: 128��"39.
          > > > > ��"��"��". 1970. The N-���-P Weights from Judah. BASOR 200: 62��"66.
          > > > > Shany, E. 1967. A New Unpublished "Beq��a" Weight in the Pontif.
          > Bibl.
          > > > Institute, Jerusalem. PEQ 99: 54��"55.
          > > > > Spaer, A. 1982. A Group of Iron Age Stone Weights. IEJ 32: 251.
          > > > > Viedebantt, O. 1917. Forschungen zur Metrologie des Altertums.
          > > > Abhandlungen der philologisch-historischen Klasse der K��nigl.
          > S��chsischen
          > > > Gesellschaft der Wissenschaften34/3. Leipzig.
          > > > > Zaccagnini, C. 1978. A Note on the Talent at Alalah (AT 401). Iraq
          > 40:
          > > > 67��"69.
          > > > > �
          > > > >
          > > > > george
          > > > >
          > > > > gfsomsel
          > > > >
          > > > > Papua, New Guinea
          > > > >
          > > > > � search for truth, hear truth, learn truth,
          > > > > � love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
          > > > > � defend the truth till death.
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          > > > > _________
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        • richardwsproat
          For those interested, I now have the data for all of the Indus Weights (that I could find), available, plus a (very) preliminary analysis here (includes a
          Message 4 of 12 , Aug 25, 2013
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            For those interested, I now have the data for all of the Indus Weights (that I could find), available, plus a (very) preliminary analysis here (includes a link to the data):

            http://rws.xoba.com/indus_weights/IndusWeights.pdf

            Richard Sproat
            New York

            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "richardwsproat" <rws@...> wrote:
            >
            > I am in the process of making electronic versions of all of the published data tables on Indus Valley weights with a view to analyzing to what extent they are indeed more accurate than contemporaneous weight systems, as is often claimed.
            >
            > I'd like to have equivalent data on Egyptian and Mesopotamian weights. For Egyptian weights I know about Petrie's work though I haven't yet seen the original papers, and Hemmy's analysis of Petrie's data (though that doesn't give the raw data).
            >
            > Can anyone suggest some good sources for data tables for weights from these two regions? Of course if the data already exists in electronic form that would be even better.
            >
            > Please respond to me offline: I will summarize on the List if there are enough responses.
            >
            > Thanks.
            >
            > Richard Sproat
            > New York, NY
            >
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