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Data on Egyptian and Mesopotamian weights

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  • richardwsproat
    I am in the process of making electronic versions of all of the published data tables on Indus Valley weights with a view to analyzing to what extent they are
    Message 1 of 12 , Jul 10 11:15 AM
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      I am in the process of making electronic versions of all of the published data tables on Indus Valley weights with a view to analyzing to what extent they are indeed more accurate than contemporaneous weight systems, as is often claimed.

      I'd like to have equivalent data on Egyptian and Mesopotamian weights. For Egyptian weights I know about Petrie's work though I haven't yet seen the original papers, and Hemmy's analysis of Petrie's data (though that doesn't give the raw data).

      Can anyone suggest some good sources for data tables for weights from these two regions? Of course if the data already exists in electronic form that would be even better.

      Please respond to me offline: I will summarize on the List if there are enough responses.

      Thanks.

      Richard Sproat
      New York, NY
    • Beatrice Hopkinson
      I am interested in weights and measures in Mesopotamia and as your replies might be offline would you please be good enough to forward me the references. With
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 10 11:46 AM
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        I am interested in weights and measures in Mesopotamia and as your replies might be offline would you
        please be good enough to forward me the references.

        With thanks,

        Beatrice Hopkinson
        Hon. Secretary Oxford University Soc. LA Branch
        President, DBSAT (Droitwich Brine Springs and ArchaeologicalTrust)
        Board AIA (Archaeological Institute of America)
        Affiliate, Cotsen Institute of Archaeology, UCLA
        818 766 7780


        On Jul 10, 2013, at 11:15 AM, richardwsproat wrote:

        I am in the process of making electronic versions of all of the published data tables on Indus Valley weights with a view to analyzing to what extent they are indeed more accurate than contemporaneous weight systems, as is often claimed.

        I'd like to have equivalent data on Egyptian and Mesopotamian weights. For Egyptian weights I know about Petrie's work though I haven't yet seen the original papers, and Hemmy's analysis of Petrie's data (though that doesn't give the raw data).

        Can anyone suggest some good sources for data tables for weights from these two regions? Of course if the data already exists in electronic form that would be even better.

        Please respond to me offline: I will summarize on the List if there are enough responses.

        Thanks.

        Richard Sproat
        New York, NY





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • David R. Lipovitch, PhD
        I m working on a collection of weights from Iron Age Tell Ta yinat in Turkey. I would love a copy of whatever information you get. David R. Lipovitch, PhD
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 10 11:58 AM
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          I'm working on a collection of weights from Iron Age Tell Ta'yinat in
          Turkey. I would love a copy of whatever information you get.

          David R. Lipovitch, PhD

          Research Affiliate, University of Toronto

          Staff Zooarchaeologist, Tayinat Archeological Project



          From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          richardwsproat
          Sent: July-10-13 2:16 PM
          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [ANE-2] Data on Egyptian and Mesopotamian weights





          I am in the process of making electronic versions of all of the published
          data tables on Indus Valley weights with a view to analyzing to what extent
          they are indeed more accurate than contemporaneous weight systems, as is
          often claimed.

          I'd like to have equivalent data on Egyptian and Mesopotamian weights. For
          Egyptian weights I know about Petrie's work though I haven't yet seen the
          original papers, and Hemmy's analysis of Petrie's data (though that doesn't
          give the raw data).

          Can anyone suggest some good sources for data tables for weights from these
          two regions? Of course if the data already exists in electronic form that
          would be even better.

          Please respond to me offline: I will summarize on the List if there are
          enough responses.

          Thanks.

          Richard Sproat
          New York, NY





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • robtyenow
          Dear Richard Mostly I just wish you good luck with this project, as my chief interest/knowledge relates to metrology and coinage systems, so I can only point
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 11 4:20 AM
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            Dear Richard

            Mostly I just wish you good luck with this project, as my chief interest/knowledge relates to metrology and coinage systems, so I can only point you to very obvious places on earlier matters.

            Regarding Mesopotamian weights – Appendix 3 of Marvin Powells Phd (Minnesota 1971) is 27 pages of known inscribed Mesopotamian weights. But a lot of work would be needed to clean up the data for any worthwhile electronic databases. Powell has of course published subsequent work, including on local variations in the standards. Rahmstorf has a bit of useful data on page 91 of the 2010 Renfrew book

            Regarding Egyptian weights - I guess if you are comparing with Indus valley you are thinking primarily of the very early Egyptian standard sometimes called a deben, sometimes a beqa?

            I am puzzled that I never seem to see any new work on that standard, since it seems to be the earliest known (?) I note Medros recently used a fix of 12.83g for it, but am unclear where that came from.

            F G Skinner seems to have worked on weights, with access to the Petrie collection of 4,000 Egyptian weights, at the London Science Museum from about 1930 to 1966, and I append a couple of extracts from his conclusions. I recommend reading the full thing. Note that he clearly did significant work on the weights of various strains of wheat and barley also. (Kenoyer, like countless others, seems to believe barley cornes weigh c. 0.0648g. It seems they never did. c 0.0648 is a mathematical construct – as are most metrological constants – it is 4/3 times a weight which probably was, long ago, taken from wheat grains (Skinner warned of this error (page 29 footnote) but his warning is almost universally unheeded)

            Data tables behind Skinners results do not seem to be publicly available, and my own approaches to the Science Museum a couple of times concerning his results have proved fruitless.

            Kenoyer (again the 2010 Renfrew book) concludes that the Indus Valley standard/system was retained within Indian culture for 4,000 years or more, and I am strongly inclined to agree with him. It is worth noting Skinners parallel conclusion concerning European/ANE affairs, (which is generally brushed aside rather casually, rather than being scientifically investigated).

            Rob Tye, York, UK

            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

            Skinner extract 1 (Weights and Measures, HMSO 1967, F G Skinner)

            The Beqa Standard has by far the longest history of any of the ancient standards and was always associated with the weighing of gold and silver. It was used in Egypt throughout 3000 years of dynastic history, and was adopted by the Greeks as the standard of Aegina about 700 BC. From it were evolved two of the several Roman Pounds, i.e. for their original Silver Denarius and for the gold Aureus Coinage. It was adopted by the Arabic Empire in the 7th century AD for bulk gold, and ultimately became the basis of English Troy weight (from a standard of 192 grains (12.44g)).

            Skinner extract 2

            The Beqa standard of weight

            The median unit of weight was 200 grains (13 gm) with a range of variation from 188 grains (12.2 gm) to 215 grains (14 gm). Within this range there were three principal standards of 192 grn (12.44 gm), 206 grn (13.35 gm) and 211 grn (13.67 gm). These were not merely sub-standards, but were in fact more significant values than the median of 200 gr which was only the middle value for an amalgamation in Egypt of three different gold standards of which the lowest, 192 grn, was probably Nubian in origin from the gold-fields there, and the highest may well have come from the Indus civilization in Northern India.
            The system was the same throughout the whole range. The unit, like the Indus unit was multiplied decimally up to 2000 Beqa Shekels and binarily divided into 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 and 1/16 which makes it probable that the unit Beqa originated from the weight of 256 seeds of some sort, this number being the only one capable of repeated halving down to the numeral 1. Thus the 1/16 Beqa, the smallest denomination in this system found as an actual stone weight would be the equivalent of 16 seeds and would itself be subdivided into 16 parts each of 1 seed. The particular seeds used for originating the weight of the Beqa Shekel were probably barley cornes for the higher standards from 200 Troy grains upwards, and almost certainly wheat grains for the lower standards below 200 grains Troy, suggesting at least two separate places of origin.

            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "richardwsproat" <rws@...> wrote:
            >
            > I am in the process of making electronic versions of all of the published data tables on Indus Valley weights with a view to analyzing to what extent they are indeed more accurate than contemporaneous weight systems, as is often claimed.
            >
            > I'd like to have equivalent data on Egyptian and Mesopotamian weights. For Egyptian weights I know about Petrie's work though I haven't yet seen the original papers, and Hemmy's analysis of Petrie's data (though that doesn't give the raw data).
            >
            > Can anyone suggest some good sources for data tables for weights from these two regions? Of course if the data already exists in electronic form that would be even better.
            >
            > Please respond to me offline: I will summarize on the List if there are enough responses.
            >
            > Thanks.
            >
            > Richard Sproat
            > New York, NY
            >
          • richardwsproat
            Hi Rob: Thanks for the reply. Some replies inline below: Richard Sproat New York, NY ... Well I noticed thatk, and the claim that at least some versions of
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 11 9:13 AM
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              Hi Rob:

              Thanks for the reply. Some replies inline below:

              Richard Sproat
              New York, NY

              --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "robtyenow" <robtyenow@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear Richard
              >
              > Mostly I just wish you good luck with this project, as my chief interest/knowledge relates to metrology and coinage systems, so I can only point you to very obvious places on earlier matters.
              >
              > Regarding Mesopotamian weights – Appendix 3 of Marvin Powells Phd (Minnesota 1971) is 27 pages of known inscribed Mesopotamian weights. But a lot of work would be needed to clean up the data for any worthwhile electronic databases. Powell has of course published subsequent work, including on local variations in the standards. Rahmstorf has a bit of useful data on page 91 of the 2010 Renfrew book
              >
              > Regarding Egyptian weights - I guess if you are comparing with Indus valley you are thinking primarily of the very early Egyptian standard sometimes called a deben, sometimes a beqa?

              Well I noticed thatk, and the claim that at least some versions of that are similar (about 13.6g) to the Indus basic weight. If true that would certainly be curious. But actually my main interest is in the supposed precision of the Indus system relative to that of contemporaneous systems, whatever the basic standards may have been.

              >
              > I am puzzled that I never seem to see any new work on that standard, since it seems to be the earliest known (?) I note Medros recently used a fix of 12.83g for it, but am unclear where that came from.
              >
              > F G Skinner seems to have worked on weights, with access to the Petrie collection of 4,000 Egyptian weights, at the London Science Museum from about 1930 to 1966, and I append a couple of extracts from his conclusions. I recommend reading the full thing. Note that he clearly did significant work on the weights of various strains of wheat and barley also. (Kenoyer, like countless others, seems to believe barley cornes weigh c. 0.0648g. It seems they never did. c 0.0648 is a mathematical construct – as are most metrological constants – it is 4/3 times a weight which probably was, long ago, taken from wheat grains (Skinner warned of this error (page 29 footnote) but his warning is almost universally unheeded)
              >
              > Data tables behind Skinners results do not seem to be publicly available, and my own approaches to the Science Museum a couple of times concerning his results have proved fruitless.
              >
              > Kenoyer (again the 2010 Renfrew book) concludes that the Indus Valley standard/system was retained within Indian culture for 4,000 years or more, and I am strongly inclined to agree with him. It is worth noting Skinners parallel conclusion concerning European/ANE affairs, (which is generally brushed aside rather casually, rather than being scientifically investigated).
              >
              > Rob Tye, York, UK
              >
              > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              >
              > Skinner extract 1 (Weights and Measures, HMSO 1967, F G Skinner)
              >
              > The Beqa Standard has by far the longest history of any of the ancient standards and was always associated with the weighing of gold and silver. It was used in Egypt throughout 3000 years of dynastic history, and was adopted by the Greeks as the standard of Aegina about 700 BC. From it were evolved two of the several Roman Pounds, i.e. for their original Silver Denarius and for the gold Aureus Coinage. It was adopted by the Arabic Empire in the 7th century AD for bulk gold, and ultimately became the basis of English Troy weight (from a standard of 192 grains (12.44g)).
              >
              > Skinner extract 2
              >
              > The Beqa standard of weight
              >
              > The median unit of weight was 200 grains (13 gm) with a range of variation from 188 grains (12.2 gm) to 215 grains (14 gm). Within this range there were three principal standards of 192 grn (12.44 gm), 206 grn (13.35 gm) and 211 grn (13.67 gm). These were not merely sub-standards, but were in fact more significant values than the median of 200 gr which was only the middle value for an amalgamation in Egypt of three different gold standards of which the lowest, 192 grn, was probably Nubian in origin from the gold-fields there, and the highest may well have come from the Indus civilization in Northern India.
              > The system was the same throughout the whole range. The unit, like the Indus unit was multiplied decimally up to 2000 Beqa Shekels and binarily divided into 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 and 1/16 which makes it probable that the unit Beqa originated from the weight of 256 seeds of some sort, this number being the only one capable of repeated halving down to the numeral 1. Thus the 1/16 Beqa, the smallest denomination in this system found as an actual stone weight would be the equivalent of 16 seeds and would itself be subdivided into 16 parts each of 1 seed. The particular seeds used for originating the weight of the Beqa Shekel were probably barley cornes for the higher standards from 200 Troy grains upwards, and almost certainly wheat grains for the lower standards below 200 grains Troy, suggesting at least two separate places of origin.
              >
              > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              >
              > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "richardwsproat" <rws@> wrote:
              > >
              > > I am in the process of making electronic versions of all of the published data tables on Indus Valley weights with a view to analyzing to what extent they are indeed more accurate than contemporaneous weight systems, as is often claimed.
              > >
              > > I'd like to have equivalent data on Egyptian and Mesopotamian weights. For Egyptian weights I know about Petrie's work though I haven't yet seen the original papers, and Hemmy's analysis of Petrie's data (though that doesn't give the raw data).
              > >
              > > Can anyone suggest some good sources for data tables for weights from these two regions? Of course if the data already exists in electronic form that would be even better.
              > >
              > > Please respond to me offline: I will summarize on the List if there are enough responses.
              > >
              > > Thanks.
              > >
              > > Richard Sproat
              > > New York, NY
              > >
              >
            • robtyenow
              Dear Richard ... Concerning your own line of enquiry, and this very earliest of Egyptian standards, the study by Skinner suggests accuracy was very poor
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 11 11:06 AM
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                Dear Richard

                > Well I noticed that, and the claim that at least some versions of that are similar (about 13.6g) to the Indus basic weight. If true that would certainly be curious. But actually my main interest is in the supposed precision of the Indus system relative to that of contemporaneous systems, whatever the basic standards may have been.

                Concerning your own line of enquiry, and this very earliest of Egyptian standards, the study by Skinner suggests accuracy was very poor indeed. My rather cursory examination of these matters suggested that Indus weights were better maintained than Mesopotamian, and both better maintained than this early Egyptian standard, but of course I would welcome further enquiry.

                I remain puzzled that so little research seems to appear about this Egyptian, apparently very earliest, standard.

                Probably I should add that the coincidence of standards between Indus and Egypt does not sway me much, that could so easily be just a co-incidence. It is the coincidence of binary structures of the two systems that impresses me much more. The use of a two pan scale tends to dictate a binary structure, and the primary question it seems to me to highlight is not why India and Egypt both seem to take the same sort of path on this – but rather, why Mesopotamia took a different (sexagesimal) one.

                Regarding the possible perpetuation of the system down the ages, that is a similar matter.

                If Skinner is correct, the mina of this very early Egyptian standard was fixed at 40 x 256 = 10,240 (troy wheat) grains

                And 16 oz Troy is 32 x 20 x 16 = 10,240 (troy wheat) grains,

                So the fact that both systems are then fixed at approx 500g does become quite interesting I think.

                In rather different ways, two pan scales and computers are both binary machines, and

                10,240 = 10 x 1,024 – the binary thousand upon which the modern computer so much depends.

                Whilst this sort of suggestion of course tends to appeal to the perhaps small fraction of the population who are fascinated by numbers, it is surely reasonable to suggest that those who constructed metrological systems in the first place were themselves from that self same, number obsessed, sub-community.

                Rob Tye, York UK

                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "richardwsproat" <rws@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hi Rob:
                >
                > Thanks for the reply. Some replies inline below:
                >
                > Richard Sproat
                > New York, NY
                >
                > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "robtyenow" <robtyenow@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Dear Richard
                > >
                > > Mostly I just wish you good luck with this project, as my chief interest/knowledge relates to metrology and coinage systems, so I can only point you to very obvious places on earlier matters.
                > >
                > > Regarding Mesopotamian weights – Appendix 3 of Marvin Powells Phd (Minnesota 1971) is 27 pages of known inscribed Mesopotamian weights. But a lot of work would be needed to clean up the data for any worthwhile electronic databases. Powell has of course published subsequent work, including on local variations in the standards. Rahmstorf has a bit of useful data on page 91 of the 2010 Renfrew book
                > >
                > > Regarding Egyptian weights - I guess if you are comparing with Indus valley you are thinking primarily of the very early Egyptian standard sometimes called a deben, sometimes a beqa?
                >
                > Well I noticed thatk, and the claim that at least some versions of that are similar (about 13.6g) to the Indus basic weight. If true that would certainly be curious. But actually my main interest is in the supposed precision of the Indus system relative to that of contemporaneous systems, whatever the basic standards may have been.
                >
                > >
                > > I am puzzled that I never seem to see any new work on that standard, since it seems to be the earliest known (?) I note Medros recently used a fix of 12.83g for it, but am unclear where that came from.
                > >
                > > F G Skinner seems to have worked on weights, with access to the Petrie collection of 4,000 Egyptian weights, at the London Science Museum from about 1930 to 1966, and I append a couple of extracts from his conclusions. I recommend reading the full thing. Note that he clearly did significant work on the weights of various strains of wheat and barley also. (Kenoyer, like countless others, seems to believe barley cornes weigh c. 0.0648g. It seems they never did. c 0.0648 is a mathematical construct – as are most metrological constants – it is 4/3 times a weight which probably was, long ago, taken from wheat grains (Skinner warned of this error (page 29 footnote) but his warning is almost universally unheeded)
                > >
                > > Data tables behind Skinners results do not seem to be publicly available, and my own approaches to the Science Museum a couple of times concerning his results have proved fruitless.
                > >
                > > Kenoyer (again the 2010 Renfrew book) concludes that the Indus Valley standard/system was retained within Indian culture for 4,000 years or more, and I am strongly inclined to agree with him. It is worth noting Skinners parallel conclusion concerning European/ANE affairs, (which is generally brushed aside rather casually, rather than being scientifically investigated).
                > >
                > > Rob Tye, York, UK
                > >
                > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                > >
                > > Skinner extract 1 (Weights and Measures, HMSO 1967, F G Skinner)
                > >
                > > The Beqa Standard has by far the longest history of any of the ancient standards and was always associated with the weighing of gold and silver. It was used in Egypt throughout 3000 years of dynastic history, and was adopted by the Greeks as the standard of Aegina about 700 BC. From it were evolved two of the several Roman Pounds, i.e. for their original Silver Denarius and for the gold Aureus Coinage. It was adopted by the Arabic Empire in the 7th century AD for bulk gold, and ultimately became the basis of English Troy weight (from a standard of 192 grains (12.44g)).
                > >
                > > Skinner extract 2
                > >
                > > The Beqa standard of weight
                > >
                > > The median unit of weight was 200 grains (13 gm) with a range of variation from 188 grains (12.2 gm) to 215 grains (14 gm). Within this range there were three principal standards of 192 grn (12.44 gm), 206 grn (13.35 gm) and 211 grn (13.67 gm). These were not merely sub-standards, but were in fact more significant values than the median of 200 gr which was only the middle value for an amalgamation in Egypt of three different gold standards of which the lowest, 192 grn, was probably Nubian in origin from the gold-fields there, and the highest may well have come from the Indus civilization in Northern India.
                > > The system was the same throughout the whole range. The unit, like the Indus unit was multiplied decimally up to 2000 Beqa Shekels and binarily divided into 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 and 1/16 which makes it probable that the unit Beqa originated from the weight of 256 seeds of some sort, this number being the only one capable of repeated halving down to the numeral 1. Thus the 1/16 Beqa, the smallest denomination in this system found as an actual stone weight would be the equivalent of 16 seeds and would itself be subdivided into 16 parts each of 1 seed. The particular seeds used for originating the weight of the Beqa Shekel were probably barley cornes for the higher standards from 200 Troy grains upwards, and almost certainly wheat grains for the lower standards below 200 grains Troy, suggesting at least two separate places of origin.
                > >
                > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                > >
                > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "richardwsproat" <rws@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > I am in the process of making electronic versions of all of the published data tables on Indus Valley weights with a view to analyzing to what extent they are indeed more accurate than contemporaneous weight systems, as is often claimed.
                > > >
                > > > I'd like to have equivalent data on Egyptian and Mesopotamian weights. For Egyptian weights I know about Petrie's work though I haven't yet seen the original papers, and Hemmy's analysis of Petrie's data (though that doesn't give the raw data).
                > > >
                > > > Can anyone suggest some good sources for data tables for weights from these two regions? Of course if the data already exists in electronic form that would be even better.
                > > >
                > > > Please respond to me offline: I will summarize on the List if there are enough responses.
                > > >
                > > > Thanks.
                > > >
                > > > Richard Sproat
                > > > New York, NY
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • George F Somsel
                You might want to check the entries in the bibliography of the article Weights and Measures in the Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary.  This may be somewhat dated
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 11 12:06 PM
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                  You might want to check the entries in the bibliography of the article "Weights and Measures" in the Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary.  This may be somewhat dated by now, but it's a place to start.
                   Bibliography Aharoni, Y. 1966. The Use of Hieratic Numerals in Hebrew Ostraca and the Shekel Weights. BASOR 184: 13–19.
                  ———. 1971. A 40-Shekel Weight with a Hieratic Numeral. BASOR 201: 35–36.
                  Ben-David, A. 1966. The Standard of the Sheqel. PEQ 98: 168–69.
                  ———. 1968. The Talmud Was Right! The Weight of the Biblical Sheqel. PEQ 100: 145–47.
                  ———. 1971. Jewish and Roman Bronze and Copper Coins: Their Reciprocal Relations in Mishnah and Talmud from Herod the Great to Trajan and Hadrian. PEQ 103: 109–29.
                  ———. 1978. The Hebrew-Phoenician Cubit. PEQ 110: 27–28.
                  ———. 1979. The Philistine Talent from Ashdod, the Ugarit Talent from Ras Shamra, The "PYM" and the "N-Ṣ-P." UF 11: 29–45.
                  Diringer, D. 1942. The Early Hebrew Weights Found at Lachish. PEQ 74: 82–103.
                  ———. 1958. Weights. Pp. 227–30 in DOTT.
                  Foxhall, L., and Forbes, H. A. 1982. Sitometreia: The Role of Grain as a Staple Food in Classical Antiquity. Chiron 12: 41–90.
                  Heltzer, M. 1976. Goods, Prices and the Organization of Trade in Ugarit. Wiesbaden.
                  Inge, C. H. 1941. Post-Scriptum. PEQ 73: 106–9.
                  Kaplan, J. 1987. A Lead Weight from Ashdod with Jewish Symbols. IEJ 37: 50–53.
                  Kaufman, A. S. 1984. Determining the Length of the Medium Cubit. PEQ 116: 120–32.
                  Kaufman, I. T. 1967. New Evidence for Hieratic Numerals on Hebrew Weights. BASOR 188: 39–41.
                  Kerkhof, V. I. 1966. An Inscribed Stone Weight from Shechem. BASOR 184: 20–21.
                  Krauss, S. 1911. Masse, Gewichte, Münzen. Vol. 2, pp. 382–416 in Talmudische Archäologie. Leipzig.
                  Lifshitz, M. 1976. Bleigewichte aus Palästina und Syrien. ZDPV 92: 168–87.
                  Meshorer, Y. 1970. A Stone Weight from the Reign of Herod. IEJ 20: 97–98.
                  Parise, N. F. 1970–71. Per uno studio del sistema ponderale ugaritico. Dialoghi di Archeologia 4: 3–36.
                  ———. 1984. Unità ponderali e rapporti di cambio nella Siria del nord. Pp. 125–38 in Circulation of Goods in Non-Palatial Context in the Ancient Near East, ed. A. Archi. Incunabula Graeca 72. Rome.
                  Petrie, W. M. F. 1892. The Tomb Cutters Cubits at Jerusalem. PEQ 15: 28–35.
                  ———. 1894. Inductive Metrology, The Recovery of Ancient Measures from the Monuments. London.
                  Pilcher, E. J. 1912. Weights of Ancient Palestine. PEQ 44: 136–44, 178–95.
                  ———. 1916. Hebrew Weights in the Book of Samuel. PEQ 48: 77–85.
                  Powell, M. A. 1979. Ancient Mesopotamian Weight Metrology: Methods, Problems and Perspectives. Pp. 71–109 in Studies in Honor of Tom B. Jones, ed. M. A. Powell and R. H. Sack. AOAT 203. Kevelaer.
                  Pritchard, J. B. 1959. Inscribed Weight. Pp. 29–30 in Hebrew Inscriptions and Stamps from Gibeon. Philadelphia.
                  Scott, R. B. Y. 1958. The Hebrew Cubit. JBL 77: 205–14.
                  ———. 1959. Weights and Measures of the Bible. BA 22: 22–40.
                  ———. 1965. The Scale Weights from Ophel. PEQ 97: 128–39.
                  ———. 1970. The N-Ṣ-P Weights from Judah. BASOR 200: 62–66.
                  Shany, E. 1967. A New Unpublished "Beqʿa" Weight in the Pontif. Bibl. Institute, Jerusalem. PEQ 99: 54–55.
                  Spaer, A. 1982. A Group of Iron Age Stone Weights. IEJ 32: 251.
                  Viedebantt, O. 1917. Forschungen zur Metrologie des Altertums. Abhandlungen der philologisch-historischen Klasse der Königl. Sächsischen Gesellschaft der Wissenschaften34/3. Leipzig.
                  Zaccagnini, C. 1978. A Note on the Talent at Alalah (AT 401). Iraq 40: 67–69.
                   

                  george

                  gfsomsel

                  Papua, New Guinea

                   search for truth, hear truth, learn truth,
                   love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                   defend the truth till death.

                  - Jan Hus
                  _________



















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                • richardwsproat
                  Thanks, though the Judean weights would presumably be much much later than the Indus weights, right? The reason for specifically focusing on third millenium
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jul 11 12:29 PM
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                    Thanks, though the Judean weights would presumably be much much later than the Indus weights, right?

                    The reason for specifically focusing on third millenium bronze age cultures is to check the claim that has often been made that the Indus weights were so much more accurate than contemporaneous systems (such as Egypt or Mesopotamia).

                    Richard Sproat
                    New York, NY

                    --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > You might want to check the entries in the bibliography of the article "Weights and Measures" in the Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary.  This may be somewhat dated by now, but it's a place to start.
                    >  Bibliography Aharoni, Y. 1966. The Use of Hieratic Numerals in Hebrew Ostraca and the Shekel Weights. BASOR 184: 13â€"19.
                    > â€"â€"â€". 1971. A 40-Shekel Weight with a Hieratic Numeral. BASOR 201: 35â€"36.
                    > Ben-David, A. 1966. The Standard of the Sheqel. PEQ 98: 168â€"69.
                    > â€"â€"â€". 1968. The Talmud Was Right! The Weight of the Biblical Sheqel. PEQ 100: 145â€"47.
                    > â€"â€"â€". 1971. Jewish and Roman Bronze and Copper Coins: Their Reciprocal Relations in Mishnah and Talmud from Herod the Great to Trajan and Hadrian. PEQ 103: 109â€"29.
                    > â€"â€"â€". 1978. The Hebrew-Phoenician Cubit. PEQ 110: 27â€"28.
                    > â€"â€"â€". 1979. The Philistine Talent from Ashdod, the Ugarit Talent from Ras Shamra, The "PYM" and the "N-á¹¢-P." UF 11: 29â€"45.
                    > Diringer, D. 1942. The Early Hebrew Weights Found at Lachish. PEQ 74: 82â€"103.
                    > â€"â€"â€". 1958. Weights. Pp. 227â€"30 in DOTT.
                    > Foxhall, L., and Forbes, H. A. 1982. Sitometreia: The Role of Grain as a Staple Food in Classical Antiquity. Chiron 12: 41â€"90.
                    > Heltzer, M. 1976. Goods, Prices and the Organization of Trade in Ugarit. Wiesbaden.
                    > Inge, C. H. 1941. Post-Scriptum. PEQ 73: 106â€"9.
                    > Kaplan, J. 1987. A Lead Weight from Ashdod with Jewish Symbols. IEJ 37: 50â€"53.
                    > Kaufman, A. S. 1984. Determining the Length of the Medium Cubit. PEQ 116: 120â€"32.
                    > Kaufman, I. T. 1967. New Evidence for Hieratic Numerals on Hebrew Weights. BASOR 188: 39â€"41.
                    > Kerkhof, V. I. 1966. An Inscribed Stone Weight from Shechem. BASOR 184: 20â€"21.
                    > Krauss, S. 1911. Masse, Gewichte, Münzen. Vol. 2, pp. 382â€"416 in Talmudische Archäologie. Leipzig.
                    > Lifshitz, M. 1976. Bleigewichte aus Palästina und Syrien. ZDPV 92: 168â€"87.
                    > Meshorer, Y. 1970. A Stone Weight from the Reign of Herod. IEJ 20: 97â€"98.
                    > Parise, N. F. 1970â€"71. Per uno studio del sistema ponderale ugaritico. Dialoghi di Archeologia 4: 3â€"36.
                    > â€"â€"â€". 1984. Unità ponderali e rapporti di cambio nella Siria del nord. Pp. 125â€"38 in Circulation of Goods in Non-Palatial Context in the Ancient Near East, ed. A. Archi. Incunabula Graeca 72. Rome.
                    > Petrie, W. M. F. 1892. The Tomb Cutters Cubits at Jerusalem. PEQ 15: 28â€"35.
                    > â€"â€"â€". 1894. Inductive Metrology, The Recovery of Ancient Measures from the Monuments. London.
                    > Pilcher, E. J. 1912. Weights of Ancient Palestine. PEQ 44: 136â€"44, 178â€"95.
                    > â€"â€"â€". 1916. Hebrew Weights in the Book of Samuel. PEQ 48: 77â€"85.
                    > Powell, M. A. 1979. Ancient Mesopotamian Weight Metrology: Methods, Problems and Perspectives. Pp. 71â€"109 in Studies in Honor of Tom B. Jones, ed. M. A. Powell and R. H. Sack. AOAT 203. Kevelaer.
                    > Pritchard, J. B. 1959. Inscribed Weight. Pp. 29â€"30 in Hebrew Inscriptions and Stamps from Gibeon. Philadelphia.
                    > Scott, R. B. Y. 1958. The Hebrew Cubit. JBL 77: 205â€"14.
                    > â€"â€"â€". 1959. Weights and Measures of the Bible. BA 22: 22â€"40.
                    > â€"â€"â€". 1965. The Scale Weights from Ophel. PEQ 97: 128â€"39.
                    > â€"â€"â€". 1970. The N-á¹¢-P Weights from Judah. BASOR 200: 62â€"66.
                    > Shany, E. 1967. A New Unpublished "BeqÊ¿a" Weight in the Pontif. Bibl. Institute, Jerusalem. PEQ 99: 54â€"55.
                    > Spaer, A. 1982. A Group of Iron Age Stone Weights. IEJ 32: 251.
                    > Viedebantt, O. 1917. Forschungen zur Metrologie des Altertums. Abhandlungen der philologisch-historischen Klasse der Königl. Sächsischen Gesellschaft der Wissenschaften34/3. Leipzig.
                    > Zaccagnini, C. 1978. A Note on the Talent at Alalah (AT 401). Iraq 40: 67â€"69.
                    >  
                    >
                    > george
                    >
                    > gfsomsel
                    >
                    > Papua, New Guinea
                    >
                    >  search for truth, hear truth, learn truth,
                    >  love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                    >  defend the truth till death.
                    >
                    > - Jan Hus
                    > _________
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                  • Raz Kletter
                    Dear Richerd, and ANE Members, The offline discussion has now become online, so I re-send (below) my earlier offline email to Richard. I don t want list
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jul 11 10:47 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear Richerd, and ANE Members,
                      The offline discussion has now become online, so I re-send (below) my
                      earlier offline email to Richard.
                      I don't want list members to think that I am ingracious and do not try to
                      contribute to list members.
                      People may hold onto notions that Petrie held 120 years ago, when finding
                      biblical standards like "Beqa" in Early Dynastic Egypt, and may
                      seek correlations between various "standards" just based on weight, but I
                      do not recommend these things.
                      IN any case, while the Judean weights are 8-7 centuries BC, for accuracy in
                      ancient ANE weights they are the best evidence there is. This is because,
                      first they come from a well defined, limited area in time and space
                      (belonging to one clear system- while in vast Egypt or Mesopotamia systems
                      could change with time/region); and second, they are mostly inscribed so
                      the units ("standards") are proven.
                      Concerning economic mode (hacksilber) and techniques (scales) there was
                      no great difference between the Bronze and Iron Ages in ANE, before the
                      invention of coins.
                      Best,
                      Raz Kletter
                      University of Helsinki


                      "Dear Richard, and interested colleagues,
                      Petrie and Hemmy are old literature. There are newer studies but few deal
                      with accuracy of weights in depth. A problem is how to estimate accuracy
                      (how to define an ancient 'norm' - taking all the weights assumed and
                      working with averages? taking just inscribed weights or weights of good
                      preservation? working with statistcis? etc).
                      For Egypt try: Janssen 1975, Commodity Prices, shows fluctuation of prices
                      of up to 10% as acceptable in Egypt. Tanja Pommerening 2005, Die
                      Altagyptiche Hohlmasse, on Capacity measures and measuring vessels - not on
                      weights.Cour Marty, M. 1991. Weights in Ancient Egypt. in Schoske, S. ed.
                      SAK 4. Akten des vierten internatyionalen Agyptologische Kongress :
                      137-145.Cour-Marty, M. 1990. Les poids Egyptiens. Cahiers de recherches de
                      l'institute de papyrologie et d'Egyptologie de lille 12:17-55.
                      Mesopotamia:Powell, M. A. 1971. Sumerian Numeration and Metrology, PhD; and
                      1987-90 Masse und Gewichte RLA 7: 508-517.Studies by Italian scholars:
                      Archi, A. (eg on Ebla weights, Eblaitica 1987 ed C.H. Gordon:47-86); N.F.
                      Parisi; K.M. Petruso; M. Zaccagnini; M. Fales (on Neo Assyrian Weights).
                      Judah:
                      R. Kletter 1998. Economic Keystones. London. - table p. 76. The nice thing
                      is that many Judean weights are inscribed so standards are clear. The basic
                      unit is shekel=11.33g. Larger weights (2,4,8 shekels) are accurate, with
                      average deviation in realation to the 1 shekel less than 1 percent. Of
                      course absolute deviations are much higher. Smaller weights- shekel
                      particles - are very inaccurate (table p. 79). They tend to be heavier than
                      the norm, I think due to the production process. I add some papers - the
                      bibliographies may be helpful. Another venue is to try estimate accuracy
                      of ancient scales, but again few studies are available.
                      "
                      2013/7/11 richardwsproat <rws@...>

                      > **
                      >
                      >
                      > Thanks, though the Judean weights would presumably be much much later than
                      > the Indus weights, right?
                      >
                      > The reason for specifically focusing on third millenium bronze age
                      > cultures is to check the claim that has often been made that the Indus
                      > weights were so much more accurate than contemporaneous systems (such as
                      > Egypt or Mesopotamia).
                      >
                      > Richard Sproat
                      > New York, NY
                      >
                      > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > You might want to check the entries in the bibliography of the article
                      > "Weights and Measures" in the Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary.� This may be
                      > somewhat dated by now, but it's a place to start.
                      > > � Bibliography Aharoni, Y. 1966. The Use of Hieratic Numerals in Hebrew
                      > Ostraca and the Shekel Weights. BASOR 184: 13��"19.
                      > > ��"��"��". 1971. A 40-Shekel Weight with a Hieratic Numeral. BASOR 201:
                      > 35��"36.
                      > > Ben-David, A. 1966. The Standard of the Sheqel. PEQ 98: 168��"69.
                      > > ��"��"��". 1968. The Talmud Was Right! The Weight of the Biblical
                      > Sheqel. PEQ 100: 145��"47.
                      > > ��"��"��". 1971. Jewish and Roman Bronze and Copper Coins: Their
                      > Reciprocal Relations in Mishnah and Talmud from Herod the Great to Trajan
                      > and Hadrian. PEQ 103: 109��"29.
                      > > ��"��"��". 1978. The Hebrew-Phoenician Cubit. PEQ 110: 27��"28.
                      > > ��"��"��". 1979. The Philistine Talent from Ashdod, the Ugarit Talent
                      > from Ras Shamra, The "PYM" and the "N-���-P." UF 11: 29��"45.
                      > > Diringer, D. 1942. The Early Hebrew Weights Found at Lachish. PEQ 74:
                      > 82��"103.
                      > > ��"��"��". 1958. Weights. Pp. 227��"30 in DOTT.
                      > > Foxhall, L., and Forbes, H. A. 1982. Sitometreia: The Role of Grain as a
                      > Staple Food in Classical Antiquity. Chiron 12: 41��"90.
                      > > Heltzer, M. 1976. Goods, Prices and the Organization of Trade in Ugarit.
                      > Wiesbaden.
                      > > Inge, C. H. 1941. Post-Scriptum. PEQ 73: 106��"9.
                      > > Kaplan, J. 1987. A Lead Weight from Ashdod with Jewish Symbols. IEJ 37:
                      > 50��"53.
                      > > Kaufman, A. S. 1984. Determining the Length of the Medium Cubit. PEQ
                      > 116: 120��"32.
                      > > Kaufman, I. T. 1967. New Evidence for Hieratic Numerals on Hebrew
                      > Weights. BASOR 188: 39��"41.
                      > > Kerkhof, V. I. 1966. An Inscribed Stone Weight from Shechem. BASOR 184:
                      > 20��"21.
                      > > Krauss, S. 1911. Masse, Gewichte, M��nzen. Vol. 2, pp. 382��"416 in
                      > Talmudische Arch��ologie. Leipzig.
                      > > Lifshitz, M. 1976. Bleigewichte aus Pal��stina und Syrien. ZDPV 92:
                      > 168��"87.
                      > > Meshorer, Y. 1970. A Stone Weight from the Reign of Herod. IEJ 20:
                      > 97��"98.
                      > > Parise, N. F. 1970��"71. Per uno studio del sistema ponderale ugaritico.
                      > Dialoghi di Archeologia 4: 3��"36.
                      > > ��"��"��". 1984. Unit� ponderali e rapporti di cambio nella Siria del
                      > nord. Pp. 125��"38 in Circulation of Goods in Non-Palatial Context in the
                      > Ancient Near East, ed. A. Archi. Incunabula Graeca 72. Rome.
                      > > Petrie, W. M. F. 1892. The Tomb Cutters Cubits at Jerusalem. PEQ 15:
                      > 28��"35.
                      > > ��"��"��". 1894. Inductive Metrology, The Recovery of Ancient Measures
                      > from the Monuments. London.
                      > > Pilcher, E. J. 1912. Weights of Ancient Palestine. PEQ 44: 136��"44,
                      > 178��"95.
                      > > ��"��"��". 1916. Hebrew Weights in the Book of Samuel. PEQ 48: 77��"85.
                      > > Powell, M. A. 1979. Ancient Mesopotamian Weight Metrology: Methods,
                      > Problems and Perspectives. Pp. 71��"109 in Studies in Honor of Tom B.
                      > Jones, ed. M. A. Powell and R. H. Sack. AOAT 203. Kevelaer.
                      > > Pritchard, J. B. 1959. Inscribed Weight. Pp. 29��"30 in Hebrew
                      > Inscriptions and Stamps from Gibeon. Philadelphia.
                      > > Scott, R. B. Y. 1958. The Hebrew Cubit. JBL 77: 205��"14.
                      > > ��"��"��". 1959. Weights and Measures of the Bible. BA 22: 22��"40.
                      > > ��"��"��". 1965. The Scale Weights from Ophel. PEQ 97: 128��"39.
                      > > ��"��"��". 1970. The N-���-P Weights from Judah. BASOR 200: 62��"66.
                      > > Shany, E. 1967. A New Unpublished "Beq��a" Weight in the Pontif. Bibl.
                      > Institute, Jerusalem. PEQ 99: 54��"55.
                      > > Spaer, A. 1982. A Group of Iron Age Stone Weights. IEJ 32: 251.
                      > > Viedebantt, O. 1917. Forschungen zur Metrologie des Altertums.
                      > Abhandlungen der philologisch-historischen Klasse der K��nigl. S��chsischen
                      > Gesellschaft der Wissenschaften34/3. Leipzig.
                      > > Zaccagnini, C. 1978. A Note on the Talent at Alalah (AT 401). Iraq 40:
                      > 67��"69.
                      > > �
                      > >
                      > > george
                      > >
                      > > gfsomsel
                      > >
                      > > Papua, New Guinea
                      > >
                      > > � search for truth, hear truth, learn truth,
                      > > � love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                      > > � defend the truth till death.
                      > >
                      > > - Jan Hus
                      > > _________
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > >Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic
                      > Messages in this topic (6)
                      > > >Recent Activity:
                      > > >Visit Your Group
                      > > >
                      > > >Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest ��� Unsubscribe ��� Terms of Use ���
                      > Send us Feedback
                      > > >.
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • robtyenow
                      Dear Raz (if I may) ... I believe this perhaps oversimplifies your position, since in your excellent study of the JILS etc you present Petrie in a rather
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jul 12 4:02 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dear Raz (if I may)

                        > People may hold onto notions that Petrie held 120 years ago, when finding biblical standards like "Beqa" in Early Dynastic Egypt, and may seek correlations between various "standards" just based on weight, but I do not recommend these things.

                        I believe this perhaps oversimplifies your position, since in your excellent study of the JILS etc you present Petrie in a rather different light, as apparently marking a complete departure from this just-based-on-weight methodology (there called comparable metrology)

                        More importantly however, I would wish to challenge your histography of modern metrological work, which I fear carries a kind of misguided historicism within it. Of course, this is not a personal criticism, as your opinions seem to me to be much in line with Petruso, Powell and indeed the great majority of workers in the field today

                        I do not accept that meteorologists have ever evolved through the separate intellectual stages of Comparable Metrology, Mathematical Metrology etc that you posit. Rather I would say there always have been foolishly overconfident individuals in the field, and other, more cautious and thoughtful individuals. Pondering metrological problems around 1720, long before your era of comparable metrology, a very intelligent mathematician like Arbuthnot was already very obviously aware of the need to seek solid evidence in time and space. Actually such matters would not have escaped al-Biruni either, investigating historical weight standards around 1020.

                        This is not just a theoretical complaint about excessive historicism in metrological histography however. In my experience, compartmentalisation of modern academic life, coupled with commonly seen excessively dismissive attitudes in line with these modern metrological attitudes, will very regularly lead contemporary researchers to casually dismiss even rather solid evidence, evidence which is well grounded in time and space.

                        Regards

                        Rob Tye, York, UK

                        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Raz Kletter <kletterr@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Dear Richerd, and ANE Members,
                        > The offline discussion has now become online, so I re-send (below) my
                        > earlier offline email to Richard.
                        > I don't want list members to think that I am ingracious and do not try to
                        > contribute to list members.
                        > People may hold onto notions that Petrie held 120 years ago, when finding
                        > biblical standards like "Beqa" in Early Dynastic Egypt, and may
                        > seek correlations between various "standards" just based on weight, but I
                        > do not recommend these things.
                        > IN any case, while the Judean weights are 8-7 centuries BC, for accuracy in
                        > ancient ANE weights they are the best evidence there is. This is because,
                        > first they come from a well defined, limited area in time and space
                        > (belonging to one clear system- while in vast Egypt or Mesopotamia systems
                        > could change with time/region); and second, they are mostly inscribed so
                        > the units ("standards") are proven.
                        > Concerning economic mode (hacksilber) and techniques (scales) there was
                        > no great difference between the Bronze and Iron Ages in ANE, before the
                        > invention of coins.
                        > Best,
                        > Raz Kletter
                        > University of Helsinki
                        >
                        >
                        > "Dear Richard, and interested colleagues,
                        > Petrie and Hemmy are old literature. There are newer studies but few deal
                        > with accuracy of weights in depth. A problem is how to estimate accuracy
                        > (how to define an ancient 'norm' - taking all the weights assumed and
                        > working with averages? taking just inscribed weights or weights of good
                        > preservation? working with statistcis? etc).
                        > For Egypt try: Janssen 1975, Commodity Prices, shows fluctuation of prices
                        > of up to 10% as acceptable in Egypt. Tanja Pommerening 2005, Die
                        > Altagyptiche Hohlmasse, on Capacity measures and measuring vessels - not on
                        > weights.Cour Marty, M. 1991. Weights in Ancient Egypt. in Schoske, S. ed.
                        > SAK 4. Akten des vierten internatyionalen Agyptologische Kongress :
                        > 137-145.Cour-Marty, M. 1990. Les poids Egyptiens. Cahiers de recherches de
                        > l'institute de papyrologie et d'Egyptologie de lille 12:17-55.
                        > Mesopotamia:Powell, M. A. 1971. Sumerian Numeration and Metrology, PhD; and
                        > 1987-90 Masse und Gewichte RLA 7: 508-517.Studies by Italian scholars:
                        > Archi, A. (eg on Ebla weights, Eblaitica 1987 ed C.H. Gordon:47-86); N.F.
                        > Parisi; K.M. Petruso; M. Zaccagnini; M. Fales (on Neo Assyrian Weights).
                        > Judah:
                        > R. Kletter 1998. Economic Keystones. London. - table p. 76. The nice thing
                        > is that many Judean weights are inscribed so standards are clear. The basic
                        > unit is shekel=11.33g. Larger weights (2,4,8 shekels) are accurate, with
                        > average deviation in realation to the 1 shekel less than 1 percent. Of
                        > course absolute deviations are much higher. Smaller weights- shekel
                        > particles - are very inaccurate (table p. 79). They tend to be heavier than
                        > the norm, I think due to the production process. I add some papers - the
                        > bibliographies may be helpful. Another venue is to try estimate accuracy
                        > of ancient scales, but again few studies are available.
                        > "
                        > 2013/7/11 richardwsproat <rws@...>
                        >
                        > > **
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Thanks, though the Judean weights would presumably be much much later than
                        > > the Indus weights, right?
                        > >
                        > > The reason for specifically focusing on third millenium bronze age
                        > > cultures is to check the claim that has often been made that the Indus
                        > > weights were so much more accurate than contemporaneous systems (such as
                        > > Egypt or Mesopotamia).
                        > >
                        > > Richard Sproat
                        > > New York, NY
                        > >
                        > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > You might want to check the entries in the bibliography of the article
                        > > "Weights and Measures" in the Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary. This may be
                        > > somewhat dated by now, but it's a place to start.
                        > > > Â Bibliography Aharoni, Y. 1966. The Use of Hieratic Numerals in Hebrew
                        > > Ostraca and the Shekel Weights. BASOR 184: 13â€"19.
                        > > > â€"â€"â€". 1971. A 40-Shekel Weight with a Hieratic Numeral. BASOR 201:
                        > > 35â€"36.
                        > > > Ben-David, A. 1966. The Standard of the Sheqel. PEQ 98: 168â€"69.
                        > > > â€"â€"â€". 1968. The Talmud Was Right! The Weight of the Biblical
                        > > Sheqel. PEQ 100: 145â€"47.
                        > > > â€"â€"â€". 1971. Jewish and Roman Bronze and Copper Coins: Their
                        > > Reciprocal Relations in Mishnah and Talmud from Herod the Great to Trajan
                        > > and Hadrian. PEQ 103: 109â€"29.
                        > > > â€"â€"â€". 1978. The Hebrew-Phoenician Cubit. PEQ 110: 27â€"28.
                        > > > â€"â€"â€". 1979. The Philistine Talent from Ashdod, the Ugarit Talent
                        > > from Ras Shamra, The "PYM" and the "N-á¹¢-P." UF 11: 29â€"45.
                        > > > Diringer, D. 1942. The Early Hebrew Weights Found at Lachish. PEQ 74:
                        > > 82â€"103.
                        > > > â€"â€"â€". 1958. Weights. Pp. 227â€"30 in DOTT.
                        > > > Foxhall, L., and Forbes, H. A. 1982. Sitometreia: The Role of Grain as a
                        > > Staple Food in Classical Antiquity. Chiron 12: 41â€"90.
                        > > > Heltzer, M. 1976. Goods, Prices and the Organization of Trade in Ugarit.
                        > > Wiesbaden.
                        > > > Inge, C. H. 1941. Post-Scriptum. PEQ 73: 106â€"9.
                        > > > Kaplan, J. 1987. A Lead Weight from Ashdod with Jewish Symbols. IEJ 37:
                        > > 50â€"53.
                        > > > Kaufman, A. S. 1984. Determining the Length of the Medium Cubit. PEQ
                        > > 116: 120â€"32.
                        > > > Kaufman, I. T. 1967. New Evidence for Hieratic Numerals on Hebrew
                        > > Weights. BASOR 188: 39â€"41.
                        > > > Kerkhof, V. I. 1966. An Inscribed Stone Weight from Shechem. BASOR 184:
                        > > 20â€"21.
                        > > > Krauss, S. 1911. Masse, Gewichte, Münzen. Vol. 2, pp. 382â€"416 in
                        > > Talmudische Archäologie. Leipzig.
                        > > > Lifshitz, M. 1976. Bleigewichte aus Palästina und Syrien. ZDPV 92:
                        > > 168â€"87.
                        > > > Meshorer, Y. 1970. A Stone Weight from the Reign of Herod. IEJ 20:
                        > > 97â€"98.
                        > > > Parise, N. F. 1970â€"71. Per uno studio del sistema ponderale ugaritico.
                        > > Dialoghi di Archeologia 4: 3â€"36.
                        > > > â€"â€"â€". 1984. Unità ponderali e rapporti di cambio nella Siria del
                        > > nord. Pp. 125â€"38 in Circulation of Goods in Non-Palatial Context in the
                        > > Ancient Near East, ed. A. Archi. Incunabula Graeca 72. Rome.
                        > > > Petrie, W. M. F. 1892. The Tomb Cutters Cubits at Jerusalem. PEQ 15:
                        > > 28â€"35.
                        > > > â€"â€"â€". 1894. Inductive Metrology, The Recovery of Ancient Measures
                        > > from the Monuments. London.
                        > > > Pilcher, E. J. 1912. Weights of Ancient Palestine. PEQ 44: 136â€"44,
                        > > 178â€"95.
                        > > > â€"â€"â€". 1916. Hebrew Weights in the Book of Samuel. PEQ 48: 77â€"85.
                        > > > Powell, M. A. 1979. Ancient Mesopotamian Weight Metrology: Methods,
                        > > Problems and Perspectives. Pp. 71â€"109 in Studies in Honor of Tom B.
                        > > Jones, ed. M. A. Powell and R. H. Sack. AOAT 203. Kevelaer.
                        > > > Pritchard, J. B. 1959. Inscribed Weight. Pp. 29â€"30 in Hebrew
                        > > Inscriptions and Stamps from Gibeon. Philadelphia.
                        > > > Scott, R. B. Y. 1958. The Hebrew Cubit. JBL 77: 205â€"14.
                        > > > â€"â€"â€". 1959. Weights and Measures of the Bible. BA 22: 22â€"40.
                        > > > â€"â€"â€". 1965. The Scale Weights from Ophel. PEQ 97: 128â€"39.
                        > > > â€"â€"â€". 1970. The N-á¹¢-P Weights from Judah. BASOR 200: 62â€"66.
                        > > > Shany, E. 1967. A New Unpublished "Beqʿa" Weight in the Pontif. Bibl.
                        > > Institute, Jerusalem. PEQ 99: 54â€"55.
                        > > > Spaer, A. 1982. A Group of Iron Age Stone Weights. IEJ 32: 251.
                        > > > Viedebantt, O. 1917. Forschungen zur Metrologie des Altertums.
                        > > Abhandlungen der philologisch-historischen Klasse der Königl. Sächsischen
                        > > Gesellschaft der Wissenschaften34/3. Leipzig.
                        > > > Zaccagnini, C. 1978. A Note on the Talent at Alalah (AT 401). Iraq 40:
                        > > 67â€"69.
                        > > > Â
                        > > >
                        > > > george
                        > > >
                        > > > gfsomsel
                        > > >
                        > > > Papua, New Guinea
                        > > >
                        > > > Â search for truth, hear truth, learn truth,
                        > > > Â love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
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                      • Raz Kletter
                        Dear Robert, Petrie stands head and shoulders above others, a real genious. I am afraid there was a misunderstanding, if my words were read as criticism of
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jul 12 8:09 AM
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                          Dear Robert,
                          Petrie stands head and shoulders above others, a real genious. I am
                          afraid there was a misunderstanding, if my words were read as criticism of
                          Petrie.
                          Maybe I oversimplified my position (at least it is mine :); but in your
                          complaint I don't recognize my words. I did not speak about 'intellectual
                          stages' in the history of research: one time period is not intellectually /
                          morally better, only the data improves and new ideas appear (not
                          necessarily better). I did not read Arbuthnot and al-Birani, and have no
                          criticism on them as valuable historical metrologists. But if (as example)
                          the first Judean Iron Age weight was discovered only in the end of the 19th
                          century AD, both cannot contribute much to understanding the Judean Iron
                          Age weight system.
                          One should take the data as updated as possible, not the data as known in
                          Petrie's time - this is what I meant, it was not criticism on Petrie.
                          I hope it clarifies; I don't see a debate here. If, as you say, we are in
                          similar positions to Powell, Parisi, Zaccagnini, Petruso, Peyronel, Fales,
                          Rahmstrof, and other metrologists - we are in very good company indeed.
                          Best,
                          Raz Kletter
                          University of Helsinki


                          2013/7/12 robtyenow <robtyenow@...>

                          > **
                          >
                          >
                          > Dear Raz (if I may)
                          >
                          > > People may hold onto notions that Petrie held 120 years ago, when
                          > finding biblical standards like "Beqa" in Early Dynastic Egypt, and may
                          > seek correlations between various "standards" just based on weight, but I
                          > do not recommend these things.
                          >
                          > I believe this perhaps oversimplifies your position, since in your
                          > excellent study of the JILS etc you present Petrie in a rather different
                          > light, as apparently marking a complete departure from this
                          > just-based-on-weight methodology (there called comparable metrology)
                          >
                          > More importantly however, I would wish to challenge your histography of
                          > modern metrological work, which I fear carries a kind of misguided
                          > historicism within it. Of course, this is not a personal criticism, as your
                          > opinions seem to me to be much in line with Petruso, Powell and indeed the
                          > great majority of workers in the field today
                          >
                          > I do not accept that meteorologists have ever evolved through the separate
                          > intellectual stages of Comparable Metrology, Mathematical Metrology etc
                          > that you posit. Rather I would say there always have been foolishly
                          > overconfident individuals in the field, and other, more cautious and
                          > thoughtful individuals. Pondering metrological problems around 1720, long
                          > before your era of comparable metrology, a very intelligent mathematician
                          > like Arbuthnot was already very obviously aware of the need to seek solid
                          > evidence in time and space. Actually such matters would not have escaped
                          > al-Biruni either, investigating historical weight standards around 1020.
                          >
                          > This is not just a theoretical complaint about excessive historicism in
                          > metrological histography however. In my experience, compartmentalisation of
                          > modern academic life, coupled with commonly seen excessively dismissive
                          > attitudes in line with these modern metrological attitudes, will very
                          > regularly lead contemporary researchers to casually dismiss even rather
                          > solid evidence, evidence which is well grounded in time and space.
                          >
                          > Regards
                          >
                          > Rob Tye, York, UK
                          >
                          > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          >
                          > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Raz Kletter <kletterr@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Dear Richerd, and ANE Members,
                          > > The offline discussion has now become online, so I re-send (below) my
                          > > earlier offline email to Richard.
                          > > I don't want list members to think that I am ingracious and do not try to
                          > > contribute to list members.
                          > > People may hold onto notions that Petrie held 120 years ago, when finding
                          > > biblical standards like "Beqa" in Early Dynastic Egypt, and may
                          > > seek correlations between various "standards" just based on weight, but I
                          > > do not recommend these things.
                          > > IN any case, while the Judean weights are 8-7 centuries BC, for accuracy
                          > in
                          > > ancient ANE weights they are the best evidence there is. This is because,
                          > > first they come from a well defined, limited area in time and space
                          > > (belonging to one clear system- while in vast Egypt or Mesopotamia
                          > systems
                          > > could change with time/region); and second, they are mostly inscribed so
                          > > the units ("standards") are proven.
                          > > Concerning economic mode (hacksilber) and techniques (scales) there was
                          > > no great difference between the Bronze and Iron Ages in ANE, before the
                          > > invention of coins.
                          > > Best,
                          > > Raz Kletter
                          > > University of Helsinki
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > "Dear Richard, and interested colleagues,
                          > > Petrie and Hemmy are old literature. There are newer studies but few deal
                          > > with accuracy of weights in depth. A problem is how to estimate accuracy
                          > > (how to define an ancient 'norm' - taking all the weights assumed and
                          > > working with averages? taking just inscribed weights or weights of good
                          > > preservation? working with statistcis? etc).
                          > > For Egypt try: Janssen 1975, Commodity Prices, shows fluctuation of
                          > prices
                          > > of up to 10% as acceptable in Egypt. Tanja Pommerening 2005, Die
                          > > Altagyptiche Hohlmasse, on Capacity measures and measuring vessels - not
                          > on
                          > > weights.Cour Marty, M. 1991. Weights in Ancient Egypt. in Schoske, S. ed.
                          > > SAK 4. Akten des vierten internatyionalen Agyptologische Kongress :
                          > > 137-145.Cour-Marty, M. 1990. Les poids Egyptiens. Cahiers de recherches
                          > de
                          > > l'institute de papyrologie et d'Egyptologie de lille 12:17-55.
                          > > Mesopotamia:Powell, M. A. 1971. Sumerian Numeration and Metrology, PhD;
                          > and
                          > > 1987-90 Masse und Gewichte RLA 7: 508-517.Studies by Italian scholars:
                          > > Archi, A. (eg on Ebla weights, Eblaitica 1987 ed C.H. Gordon:47-86); N.F.
                          > > Parisi; K.M. Petruso; M. Zaccagnini; M. Fales (on Neo Assyrian Weights).
                          > > Judah:
                          > > R. Kletter 1998. Economic Keystones. London. - table p. 76. The nice
                          > thing
                          > > is that many Judean weights are inscribed so standards are clear. The
                          > basic
                          > > unit is shekel=11.33g. Larger weights (2,4,8 shekels) are accurate, with
                          > > average deviation in realation to the 1 shekel less than 1 percent. Of
                          > > course absolute deviations are much higher. Smaller weights- shekel
                          > > particles - are very inaccurate (table p. 79). They tend to be heavier
                          > than
                          > > the norm, I think due to the production process. I add some papers - the
                          > > bibliographies may be helpful. Another venue is to try estimate accuracy
                          > > of ancient scales, but again few studies are available.
                          > > "
                          > > 2013/7/11 richardwsproat <rws@...>
                          > >
                          > > > **
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Thanks, though the Judean weights would presumably be much much later
                          > than
                          > > > the Indus weights, right?
                          > > >
                          > > > The reason for specifically focusing on third millenium bronze age
                          > > > cultures is to check the claim that has often been made that the Indus
                          > > > weights were so much more accurate than contemporaneous systems (such
                          > as
                          > > > Egypt or Mesopotamia).
                          > > >
                          > > > Richard Sproat
                          > > > New York, NY
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, George F Somsel <gfsomsel@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > You might want to check the entries in the bibliography of the
                          > article
                          > > > "Weights and Measures" in the Anchor Yale Bible Dictionary.� This may
                          > be
                          > > > somewhat dated by now, but it's a place to start.
                          > > > > � Bibliography Aharoni, Y. 1966. The Use of Hieratic Numerals in
                          > Hebrew
                          > > > Ostraca and the Shekel Weights. BASOR 184: 13��"19.
                          > > > > ��"��"��". 1971. A 40-Shekel Weight with a Hieratic Numeral. BASOR
                          > 201:
                          > > > 35��"36.
                          > > > > Ben-David, A. 1966. The Standard of the Sheqel. PEQ 98: 168��"69.
                          > > > > ��"��"��". 1968. The Talmud Was Right! The Weight of the Biblical
                          > > > Sheqel. PEQ 100: 145��"47.
                          > > > > ��"��"��". 1971. Jewish and Roman Bronze and Copper Coins: Their
                          > > > Reciprocal Relations in Mishnah and Talmud from Herod the Great to
                          > Trajan
                          > > > and Hadrian. PEQ 103: 109��"29.
                          > > > > ��"��"��". 1978. The Hebrew-Phoenician Cubit. PEQ 110: 27��"28.
                          > > > > ��"��"��". 1979. The Philistine Talent from Ashdod, the Ugarit Talent
                          > > > from Ras Shamra, The "PYM" and the "N-���-P." UF 11: 29��"45.
                          > > > > Diringer, D. 1942. The Early Hebrew Weights Found at Lachish. PEQ 74:
                          > > > 82��"103.
                          > > > > ��"��"��". 1958. Weights. Pp. 227��"30 in DOTT.
                          > > > > Foxhall, L., and Forbes, H. A. 1982. Sitometreia: The Role of Grain
                          > as a
                          > > > Staple Food in Classical Antiquity. Chiron 12: 41��"90.
                          > > > > Heltzer, M. 1976. Goods, Prices and the Organization of Trade in
                          > Ugarit.
                          > > > Wiesbaden.
                          > > > > Inge, C. H. 1941. Post-Scriptum. PEQ 73: 106��"9.
                          > > > > Kaplan, J. 1987. A Lead Weight from Ashdod with Jewish Symbols. IEJ
                          > 37:
                          > > > 50��"53.
                          > > > > Kaufman, A. S. 1984. Determining the Length of the Medium Cubit. PEQ
                          > > > 116: 120��"32.
                          > > > > Kaufman, I. T. 1967. New Evidence for Hieratic Numerals on Hebrew
                          > > > Weights. BASOR 188: 39��"41.
                          > > > > Kerkhof, V. I. 1966. An Inscribed Stone Weight from Shechem. BASOR
                          > 184:
                          > > > 20��"21.
                          > > > > Krauss, S. 1911. Masse, Gewichte, M��nzen. Vol. 2, pp. 382��"416 in
                          > > > Talmudische Arch��ologie. Leipzig.
                          > > > > Lifshitz, M. 1976. Bleigewichte aus Pal��stina und Syrien. ZDPV 92:
                          > > > 168��"87.
                          > > > > Meshorer, Y. 1970. A Stone Weight from the Reign of Herod. IEJ 20:
                          > > > 97��"98.
                          > > > > Parise, N. F. 1970��"71. Per uno studio del sistema ponderale
                          > ugaritico.
                          > > > Dialoghi di Archeologia 4: 3��"36.
                          > > > > ��"��"��". 1984. Unit� ponderali e rapporti di cambio nella Siria del
                          > > > nord. Pp. 125��"38 in Circulation of Goods in Non-Palatial Context in
                          > the
                          > > > Ancient Near East, ed. A. Archi. Incunabula Graeca 72. Rome.
                          > > > > Petrie, W. M. F. 1892. The Tomb Cutters Cubits at Jerusalem. PEQ 15:
                          > > > 28��"35.
                          > > > > ��"��"��". 1894. Inductive Metrology, The Recovery of Ancient
                          > Measures
                          > > > from the Monuments. London.
                          > > > > Pilcher, E. J. 1912. Weights of Ancient Palestine. PEQ 44: 136��"44,
                          > > > 178��"95.
                          > > > > ��"��"��". 1916. Hebrew Weights in the Book of Samuel. PEQ 48:
                          > 77��"85.
                          > > > > Powell, M. A. 1979. Ancient Mesopotamian Weight Metrology: Methods,
                          > > > Problems and Perspectives. Pp. 71��"109 in Studies in Honor of Tom B.
                          > > > Jones, ed. M. A. Powell and R. H. Sack. AOAT 203. Kevelaer.
                          > > > > Pritchard, J. B. 1959. Inscribed Weight. Pp. 29��"30 in Hebrew
                          > > > Inscriptions and Stamps from Gibeon. Philadelphia.
                          > > > > Scott, R. B. Y. 1958. The Hebrew Cubit. JBL 77: 205��"14.
                          > > > > ��"��"��". 1959. Weights and Measures of the Bible. BA 22: 22��"40.
                          > > > > ��"��"��". 1965. The Scale Weights from Ophel. PEQ 97: 128��"39.
                          > > > > ��"��"��". 1970. The N-���-P Weights from Judah. BASOR 200: 62��"66.
                          > > > > Shany, E. 1967. A New Unpublished "Beq��a" Weight in the Pontif.
                          > Bibl.
                          > > > Institute, Jerusalem. PEQ 99: 54��"55.
                          > > > > Spaer, A. 1982. A Group of Iron Age Stone Weights. IEJ 32: 251.
                          > > > > Viedebantt, O. 1917. Forschungen zur Metrologie des Altertums.
                          > > > Abhandlungen der philologisch-historischen Klasse der K��nigl.
                          > S��chsischen
                          > > > Gesellschaft der Wissenschaften34/3. Leipzig.
                          > > > > Zaccagnini, C. 1978. A Note on the Talent at Alalah (AT 401). Iraq
                          > 40:
                          > > > 67��"69.
                          > > > > �
                          > > > >
                          > > > > george
                          > > > >
                          > > > > gfsomsel
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Papua, New Guinea
                          > > > >
                          > > > > � search for truth, hear truth, learn truth,
                          > > > > � love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth,
                          > > > > � defend the truth till death.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > - Jan Hus
                          > > > > _________
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
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                          > >
                          >
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                        • richardwsproat
                          For those interested, I now have the data for all of the Indus Weights (that I could find), available, plus a (very) preliminary analysis here (includes a
                          Message 12 of 12 , Aug 25, 2013
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                            For those interested, I now have the data for all of the Indus Weights (that I could find), available, plus a (very) preliminary analysis here (includes a link to the data):

                            http://rws.xoba.com/indus_weights/IndusWeights.pdf

                            Richard Sproat
                            New York

                            --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, "richardwsproat" <rws@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I am in the process of making electronic versions of all of the published data tables on Indus Valley weights with a view to analyzing to what extent they are indeed more accurate than contemporaneous weight systems, as is often claimed.
                            >
                            > I'd like to have equivalent data on Egyptian and Mesopotamian weights. For Egyptian weights I know about Petrie's work though I haven't yet seen the original papers, and Hemmy's analysis of Petrie's data (though that doesn't give the raw data).
                            >
                            > Can anyone suggest some good sources for data tables for weights from these two regions? Of course if the data already exists in electronic form that would be even better.
                            >
                            > Please respond to me offline: I will summarize on the List if there are enough responses.
                            >
                            > Thanks.
                            >
                            > Richard Sproat
                            > New York, NY
                            >
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