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Re: [ANE-2] Zoroastrianism and its influence on Jewish thought

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  • Graham Hagens
    Thank you Judith for this help By the phrase Judeo-Christian ...thinking I had in mind the pre-Talmudic fusion of concepts during the last couple of
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 17, 2013
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      Thank you Judith for this help
      By the phrase 'Judeo-Christian ...thinking' I had in mind the pre-Talmudic fusion of concepts during the last couple of centuries BCE which so influenced Christianity.  I will pursue these various links.
       
      Graham Hagens
      Hamilton, ON 


      ________________________________
      From: Judith Lerner <judith.lerner@...>
      To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 7:10 PM
      Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Zoroastrianism and its influence on Jewish thought

       
      I'm not sure what you mean by "Jewish thought," but there exists a robust literature and on-going discussion about the interactions between Judaism and Zoroastrianism, especially regarding the Babylonian Talmud. I'm preparing for a conference now and have no time to cite specifics, but, for starters, see the publications of Shaul Shaked; Yaakov Elman; Geoffrey Herman; and Shai Secunda via a Google search or Academia.edu where publication lists and some actual articles are posted. See, too, the conference proceedings of "Talmud in its Iranian Context," eds. C. Bakhos and R. Shayegan (Mohr Siebeck, 2010). If you contact me off-list in another week with what you've found, perhaps I can supplement it.

      You may also wish to post your query to mailto:Iranian-studies%40yahoogroups.com and mailto:SASAN-L%40yahoogroups.com.
      ______
      Judith Lerner, PhD
      Research Associate
      Institute for the Study of the Ancient World
      New York University
      15 East 84 Street
      New York, NY 10028

      On Mar 16, 2013, at 2:09 PM, Graham Hagens wrote:

      > I was hoping for list members more knowledgeable than I to respond to this extremely complex question. In the interim, however, here is an indirect 2 cents contribution.
      >
      > Any answer to this question must involve the broader question of the nature of religio-syncretic studies The collation of essays in Leopold & Jensen (Syncretism in Religion, Equinox, 2004), helps to understand why syncretism tends to languish somewhere between an academic backwater and outright taboo. (Cf. in that volume: Pye [1971]Syncretism and Ambiquity; Kurt [1992].Syncretism: From Theological Invective to a Concept in the Study of Religion; Baird [1991] Syncretism and the History of Religions).
      >
      > No true believers like to admit that their core values might have been compromised by outsiders, and so in spite of strong evidence that Zoroastrianism strongly influenced Greek, Judeo-Christian and South Asian thinking between ~600BCE-~300CE, this topic nowhere achieves the status of a recognised academic discipline. Mary Boyce touches on Zoroastrian influence on Judaism in several passages in her History, but I don't believe she gave it a thorough treatment anywhere - at least nothing like Martin West's contribution to Greek philosophy. Thomas McEvilley's excellent Shape of Ancient Thought, (Allworth 2002) has some references to Persian/Jewish syncretism - but it is not a core focus of his study.
      >
      > One major problem affecting all Zoroastrian studies - and one of particular concern of 'objectivist' archae-historians such as the so-called 'Copenhagen School', is that there are no primary documents. This, not only because so many Persian documents were written on perishable materials, but because Zoroastrianism was an oral tradition, not committed to hard copy until Islamic times, perhaps two millennia after the compostion of the earliest gathas, and a millennium later than the timeframe of maximum contact with Judeo-Christianity.
      >
      > So as far as I am aware a major study on Zoroastrian/Judeo-Christian syncretism has yet to be written. If anyone can correct this impression I would be delighted to learn of it.
      >
      > Graham Hagens
      > Hamilton Ontario
      >
      >
      > ________________________________
      > From: Daniel Grolin <mailto:dgrolin%40yahoo.com>
      > To: ane <mailto:ane-2%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:13 PM
      > Subject: [ANE-2] Zoroastrianism and its influence on Jewish thought
      >
      >
      > Hi,
      >
      > I am interested in what the current attitudes are as to the influence of Zoroastrianism on Jewish thought. I am in particular interested in the Copenhagen school of thought's views on this matter. Can someone provide a summary and or references?
      >
      > Regards,
      >
      > Daniel Grolin
      > Århus, Denmark
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Clark Whelton
      I suggest: Zoroastrianism: An Introduction by Jenny Rose, Visiting Associate Professor of Religion at Stanford. (I.B. Tauris, 2011).
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 17, 2013
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        I suggest:

        "Zoroastrianism: An Introduction"
        by Jenny Rose, Visiting Associate Professor of Religion at Stanford.
        (I.B. Tauris, 2011).
        http://www.amazon.com/Zoroastrianism-Introduction-Introductions-Jenny-Rose/dp/1848850883

        See also her "The Image of Zoroaster: The Persian Mage Through European
        Eyes" (2000).


        Clark Whelton
        New York, NY



        > Hi,
        >
        > I am interested in what the current attitudes are as to the influence of
        Zoroastrianism on Jewish thought. I am in particular interested in the
        Copenhagen school of thought's views on this matter. Can someone provide a
        summary and or references?
        >
        > Regards,
        >
        > Daniel Grolin
        > Århus, Denmark
      • Daniel Grolin
        Hi, I just wanted to thank everyone who contributed to this thread and provided leads. Regards, Daniel Grolin Århus ... [Non-text portions of this message
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 18, 2013
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          Hi,

          I just wanted to thank everyone who contributed to this thread and provided leads.

          Regards,

          Daniel Grolin
          Århus





          >________________________________
          > From: Graham Hagens <rgrahamh@...>
          >To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
          >Sent: Sunday, 17 March 2013, 15:28
          >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Zoroastrianism and its influence on Jewish thought
          >
          >

          >
          >Thank you Judith for this help
          >By the phrase 'Judeo-Christian ...thinking' I had in mind the pre-Talmudic fusion of concepts during the last couple of centuries BCE which so influenced Christianity.  I will pursue these various links.

          >Graham Hagens
          >Hamilton, ON 
          >
          >________________________________
          >From: Judith Lerner <judith.lerner@...>
          >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          >Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 7:10 PM
          >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Zoroastrianism and its influence on Jewish thought
          >

          >I'm not sure what you mean by "Jewish thought," but there exists a robust literature and on-going discussion about the interactions between Judaism and Zoroastrianism, especially regarding the Babylonian Talmud. I'm preparing for a conference now and have no time to cite specifics, but, for starters, see the publications of Shaul Shaked; Yaakov Elman; Geoffrey Herman; and Shai Secunda via a Google search or Academia.edu where publication lists and some actual articles are posted. See, too, the conference proceedings of "Talmud in its Iranian Context," eds. C. Bakhos and R. Shayegan (Mohr Siebeck, 2010). If you contact me off-list in another week with what you've found, perhaps I can supplement it.
          >
          >You may also wish to post your query to mailto:Iranian-studies%40yahoogroups.com and mailto:SASAN-L%40yahoogroups.com.
          >______
          >Judith Lerner, PhD
          >Research Associate
          >Institute for the Study of the Ancient World
          >New York University
          >15 East 84 Street
          >New York, NY 10028
          >
          >On Mar 16, 2013, at 2:09 PM, Graham Hagens wrote:
          >
          >> I was hoping for list members more knowledgeable than I to respond to this extremely complex question. In the interim, however, here is an indirect 2 cents contribution.
          >>
          >> Any answer to this question must involve the broader question of the nature of religio-syncretic studies The collation of essays in Leopold & Jensen (Syncretism in Religion, Equinox, 2004), helps to understand why syncretism tends to languish somewhere between an academic backwater and outright taboo. (Cf. in that volume: Pye [1971]Syncretism and Ambiquity; Kurt [1992].Syncretism: From Theological Invective to a Concept in the Study of Religion; Baird [1991] Syncretism and the History of Religions).
          >>
          >> No true believers like to admit that their core values might have been compromised by outsiders, and so in spite of strong evidence that Zoroastrianism strongly influenced Greek, Judeo-Christian and South Asian thinking between ~600BCE-~300CE, this topic nowhere achieves the status of a recognised academic discipline. Mary Boyce touches on Zoroastrian influence on Judaism in several passages in her History, but I don't believe she gave it a thorough treatment anywhere - at least nothing like Martin West's contribution to Greek philosophy. Thomas McEvilley's excellent Shape of Ancient Thought, (Allworth 2002) has some references to Persian/Jewish syncretism - but it is not a core focus of his study.
          >>
          >> One major problem affecting all Zoroastrian studies - and one of particular concern of 'objectivist' archae-historians such as the so-called 'Copenhagen School', is that there are no primary documents. This, not only because so many Persian documents were written on perishable materials, but because Zoroastrianism was an oral tradition, not committed to hard copy until Islamic times, perhaps two millennia after the compostion of the earliest gathas, and a millennium later than the timeframe of maximum contact with Judeo-Christianity.
          >>
          >> So as far as I am aware a major study on Zoroastrian/Judeo-Christian syncretism has yet to be written. If anyone can correct this impression I would be delighted to learn of it.
          >>
          >> Graham Hagens
          >> Hamilton Ontario
          >>
          >>
          >> ________________________________
          >> From: Daniel Grolin <mailto:dgrolin%40yahoo.com>
          >> To: ane <mailto:ane-2%40yahoogroups.com>
          >> Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:13 PM
          >> Subject: [ANE-2] Zoroastrianism and its influence on Jewish thought
          >>
          >>
          >> Hi,
          >>
          >> I am interested in what the current attitudes are as to the influence of Zoroastrianism on Jewish thought. I am in particular interested in the Copenhagen school of thought's views on this matter. Can someone provide a summary and or references?
          >>
          >> Regards,
          >>
          >> Daniel Grolin
          >> Århus, Denmark
          >>
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Stewart Felker
          I wrote a little summary about some of the proposed influences here:
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 18, 2013
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            I wrote a little summary about some of the proposed influences here:
            http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/19by72/wednesday_ama_jewish_history_panel/c8n759a


            Stewart Felker
            University of Memphis






            On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 1:09 PM, Graham Hagens <rgrahamh@...> wrote:

            > **
            >
            >
            > I was hoping for list members more knowledgeable than I to respond to this
            > extremely complex question. In the interim, however, here is an indirect 2
            > cents contribution.
            >
            > Any answer to this question must involve the broader question of the
            > nature of religio-syncretic studies The collation of essays in Leopold &
            > Jensen (Syncretism in Religion, Equinox, 2004), helps to understand
            > why syncretism tends to languish somewhere between an academic backwater
            > and outright taboo. (Cf. in that volume: Pye [1971]Syncretism and
            > Ambiquity; Kurt [1992].Syncretism: From Theological Invective to a Concept
            > in the Study of Religion; Baird [1991] Syncretism and the History of
            > Religions).
            >
            > No true believers like to admit that their core values might have been
            > compromised by outsiders, and so in spite of strong evidence
            > that Zoroastrianism strongly influenced Greek, Judeo-Christian and South
            > Asian thinking between ~600BCE-~300CE, this topic nowhere achieves the
            > status of a recognised academic discipline. Mary Boyce touches on
            > Zoroastrian influence on Judaism in several passages in her History, but I
            > don't believe she gave it a thorough treatment anywhere - at least nothing
            > like Martin West's contribution to Greek philosophy. Thomas McEvilley's
            > excellent Shape of Ancient Thought, (Allworth 2002) has some references
            > to Persian/Jewish syncretism - but it is not a core focus of his study.
            >
            > One major problem affecting all Zoroastrian studies - and one of
            > particular concern of 'objectivist' archae-historians such as
            > the so-called 'Copenhagen School', is that there are no primary documents.
            > This, not only because so many Persian documents were written on perishable
            > materials, but because Zoroastrianism was an oral tradition, not committed
            > to hard copy until Islamic times, perhaps two millennia after the
            > compostion of the earliest gathas, and a millennium later than the
            > timeframe of maximum contact with Judeo-Christianity.
            >
            > So as far as I am aware a major study on Zoroastrian/Judeo-Christian
            > syncretism has yet to be written. If anyone can correct this impression I
            > would be delighted to learn of it.
            >
            > Graham Hagens
            > Hamilton Ontario
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: Daniel Grolin <dgrolin@...>
            > To: ane <ane-2@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:13 PM
            > Subject: [ANE-2] Zoroastrianism and its influence on Jewish thought
            >
            >
            >
            > Hi,
            >
            > I am interested in what the current attitudes are as to the influence of
            > Zoroastrianism on Jewish thought. I am in particular interested in the
            > Copenhagen school of thought's views on this matter. Can someone provide a
            > summary and or references?
            >
            > Regards,
            >
            > Daniel Grolin
            > �rhus, Denmark
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • aren
            If I may throw in what might be a marginal addition to this thread, please note that I published a few years ago two articles that discuss the material and
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 18, 2013
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              If I may throw in what might be a marginal addition to this thread, please note that I published a few years ago two articles that discuss the material and literary evidence for the connections between the Land of Israel/Palestine and Iran (or Iranian occupied Babylonia), primarily during the Roman/Byzantine periods.
              See:
              * Maeir, A. M. "Sassanica Varia Palaestiniensia: A Sassanian seal from T. Istaba, Israel, and other Sassanian objects from the southern Levant." Iranica Antiqua 35 (2000): 159-183.
              Safrai, Z., and A. M. Maeir. "‮ אתא אגרתא ממערבא‬(" An Epistle Came from the West"): Historical and Archaeological Evidence for the Ties between the Jewish Communities in the Land of Israel and Babylonia during the Talmudic Period." The Jewish Quarterly Review (2003): 497-531.

              Hope this helps,

              Aren Maeir
              gath.wordpress.com
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