Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Zoroastrianism and its influence on Jewish thought

Expand Messages
  • Daniel Grolin
    Hi, I am interested in what the current attitudes are as to the influence of Zoroastrianism on Jewish thought. I am in particular interested in the Copenhagen
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 12 3:13 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi,

      I am interested in what the current attitudes are as to the influence of Zoroastrianism on Jewish thought. I am in particular interested in the Copenhagen school of thought's views on this matter. Can someone provide a summary and or references?

      Regards,

      Daniel Grolin
      Århus, Denmark


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Graham Hagens
      I was hoping for list members more knowledgeable than I to respond to this extremely complex question. In the interim, however, here is an indirect 2 cents
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 16 11:09 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        I was hoping for list members more knowledgeable than I to respond to this extremely complex question. In the interim, however, here is an indirect 2 cents contribution.
         
        Any answer to this question must involve the broader question of  the nature of religio-syncretic studies  The collation of essays in  Leopold & Jensen (Syncretism in Religion,  Equinox, 2004),  helps to understand why syncretism tends to languish somewhere between an academic backwater and outright taboo.  (Cf. in that volume: Pye [1971]Syncretism and Ambiquity; Kurt [1992].Syncretism: From Theological Invective to a Concept in the Study of Religion; Baird [1991] Syncretism and the History of Religions).
         
        No true believers like to admit that their core values might have been compromised by outsiders, and so in spite of strong evidence that Zoroastrianism strongly influenced Greek, Judeo-Christian and South Asian thinking between ~600BCE-~300CE,  this topic nowhere achieves the status of a recognised academic discipline.  Mary Boyce touches on Zoroastrian influence on Judaism in several passages in her History, but I don't believe she gave it a thorough treatment anywhere - at least nothing like Martin West's contribution to Greek philosophy. Thomas McEvilley's excellent Shape of Ancient Thought, (Allworth 2002) has some references to Persian/Jewish syncretism - but it is not a core focus of his study.
         
        One major problem affecting all Zoroastrian studies - and one of particular concern of 'objectivist' archae-historians such as the so-called 'Copenhagen School', is that there are no primary documents.  This, not only because so many Persian documents were written on perishable materials, but because Zoroastrianism was an oral tradition, not committed to hard copy until Islamic times, perhaps two millennia after the compostion of the earliest gathas, and a millennium later than the timeframe of maximum contact with Judeo-Christianity.  
         
        So as far as I am aware a major study on Zoroastrian/Judeo-Christian syncretism has yet to be written. If anyone can correct this impression I would be delighted to learn of it.
         
        Graham Hagens
        Hamilton Ontario
         

        ________________________________
        From: Daniel Grolin <dgrolin@...>
        To: ane <ane-2@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:13 PM
        Subject: [ANE-2] Zoroastrianism and its influence on Jewish thought

         
        Hi,

        I am interested in what the current attitudes are as to the influence of Zoroastrianism on Jewish thought. I am in particular interested in the Copenhagen school of thought's views on this matter. Can someone provide a summary and or references?

        Regards,

        Daniel Grolin
        Århus, Denmark

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Judith Lerner
        I m not sure what you mean by Jewish thought, but there exists a robust literature and on-going discussion about the interactions between Judaism and
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 16 4:10 PM
        • 0 Attachment
          I'm not sure what you mean by "Jewish thought," but there exists a robust literature and on-going discussion about the interactions between Judaism and Zoroastrianism, especially regarding the Babylonian Talmud. I'm preparing for a conference now and have no time to cite specifics, but, for starters, see the publications of Shaul Shaked; Yaakov Elman; Geoffrey Herman; and Shai Secunda via a Google search or Academia.edu where publication lists and some actual articles are posted. See, too, the conference proceedings of "Talmud in its Iranian Context," eds. C. Bakhos and R. Shayegan (Mohr Siebeck, 2010). If you contact me off-list in another week with what you've found, perhaps I can supplement it.

          You may also wish to post your query to Iranian-studies@yahoogroups.com and SASAN-L@yahoogroups.com.
          ______
          Judith Lerner, PhD
          Research Associate
          Institute for the Study of the Ancient World
          New York University
          15 East 84 Street
          New York, NY 10028


          On Mar 16, 2013, at 2:09 PM, Graham Hagens wrote:

          > I was hoping for list members more knowledgeable than I to respond to this extremely complex question. In the interim, however, here is an indirect 2 cents contribution.
          >
          > Any answer to this question must involve the broader question of the nature of religio-syncretic studies The collation of essays in Leopold & Jensen (Syncretism in Religion, Equinox, 2004), helps to understand why syncretism tends to languish somewhere between an academic backwater and outright taboo. (Cf. in that volume: Pye [1971]Syncretism and Ambiquity; Kurt [1992].Syncretism: From Theological Invective to a Concept in the Study of Religion; Baird [1991] Syncretism and the History of Religions).
          >
          > No true believers like to admit that their core values might have been compromised by outsiders, and so in spite of strong evidence that Zoroastrianism strongly influenced Greek, Judeo-Christian and South Asian thinking between ~600BCE-~300CE, this topic nowhere achieves the status of a recognised academic discipline. Mary Boyce touches on Zoroastrian influence on Judaism in several passages in her History, but I don't believe she gave it a thorough treatment anywhere - at least nothing like Martin West's contribution to Greek philosophy. Thomas McEvilley's excellent Shape of Ancient Thought, (Allworth 2002) has some references to Persian/Jewish syncretism - but it is not a core focus of his study.
          >
          > One major problem affecting all Zoroastrian studies - and one of particular concern of 'objectivist' archae-historians such as the so-called 'Copenhagen School', is that there are no primary documents. This, not only because so many Persian documents were written on perishable materials, but because Zoroastrianism was an oral tradition, not committed to hard copy until Islamic times, perhaps two millennia after the compostion of the earliest gathas, and a millennium later than the timeframe of maximum contact with Judeo-Christianity.
          >
          > So as far as I am aware a major study on Zoroastrian/Judeo-Christian syncretism has yet to be written. If anyone can correct this impression I would be delighted to learn of it.
          >
          > Graham Hagens
          > Hamilton Ontario
          >
          >
          > ________________________________
          > From: Daniel Grolin <dgrolin@...>
          > To: ane <ane-2@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:13 PM
          > Subject: [ANE-2] Zoroastrianism and its influence on Jewish thought
          >
          >
          > Hi,
          >
          > I am interested in what the current attitudes are as to the influence of Zoroastrianism on Jewish thought. I am in particular interested in the Copenhagen school of thought's views on this matter. Can someone provide a summary and or references?
          >
          > Regards,
          >
          > Daniel Grolin
          > Århus, Denmark
          >



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Graham Hagens
          Thank you Judith for this help By the phrase Judeo-Christian ...thinking I had in mind the pre-Talmudic fusion of concepts during the last couple of
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 17 7:28 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            Thank you Judith for this help
            By the phrase 'Judeo-Christian ...thinking' I had in mind the pre-Talmudic fusion of concepts during the last couple of centuries BCE which so influenced Christianity.  I will pursue these various links.
             
            Graham Hagens
            Hamilton, ON 


            ________________________________
            From: Judith Lerner <judith.lerner@...>
            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 7:10 PM
            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Zoroastrianism and its influence on Jewish thought

             
            I'm not sure what you mean by "Jewish thought," but there exists a robust literature and on-going discussion about the interactions between Judaism and Zoroastrianism, especially regarding the Babylonian Talmud. I'm preparing for a conference now and have no time to cite specifics, but, for starters, see the publications of Shaul Shaked; Yaakov Elman; Geoffrey Herman; and Shai Secunda via a Google search or Academia.edu where publication lists and some actual articles are posted. See, too, the conference proceedings of "Talmud in its Iranian Context," eds. C. Bakhos and R. Shayegan (Mohr Siebeck, 2010). If you contact me off-list in another week with what you've found, perhaps I can supplement it.

            You may also wish to post your query to mailto:Iranian-studies%40yahoogroups.com and mailto:SASAN-L%40yahoogroups.com.
            ______
            Judith Lerner, PhD
            Research Associate
            Institute for the Study of the Ancient World
            New York University
            15 East 84 Street
            New York, NY 10028

            On Mar 16, 2013, at 2:09 PM, Graham Hagens wrote:

            > I was hoping for list members more knowledgeable than I to respond to this extremely complex question. In the interim, however, here is an indirect 2 cents contribution.
            >
            > Any answer to this question must involve the broader question of the nature of religio-syncretic studies The collation of essays in Leopold & Jensen (Syncretism in Religion, Equinox, 2004), helps to understand why syncretism tends to languish somewhere between an academic backwater and outright taboo. (Cf. in that volume: Pye [1971]Syncretism and Ambiquity; Kurt [1992].Syncretism: From Theological Invective to a Concept in the Study of Religion; Baird [1991] Syncretism and the History of Religions).
            >
            > No true believers like to admit that their core values might have been compromised by outsiders, and so in spite of strong evidence that Zoroastrianism strongly influenced Greek, Judeo-Christian and South Asian thinking between ~600BCE-~300CE, this topic nowhere achieves the status of a recognised academic discipline. Mary Boyce touches on Zoroastrian influence on Judaism in several passages in her History, but I don't believe she gave it a thorough treatment anywhere - at least nothing like Martin West's contribution to Greek philosophy. Thomas McEvilley's excellent Shape of Ancient Thought, (Allworth 2002) has some references to Persian/Jewish syncretism - but it is not a core focus of his study.
            >
            > One major problem affecting all Zoroastrian studies - and one of particular concern of 'objectivist' archae-historians such as the so-called 'Copenhagen School', is that there are no primary documents. This, not only because so many Persian documents were written on perishable materials, but because Zoroastrianism was an oral tradition, not committed to hard copy until Islamic times, perhaps two millennia after the compostion of the earliest gathas, and a millennium later than the timeframe of maximum contact with Judeo-Christianity.
            >
            > So as far as I am aware a major study on Zoroastrian/Judeo-Christian syncretism has yet to be written. If anyone can correct this impression I would be delighted to learn of it.
            >
            > Graham Hagens
            > Hamilton Ontario
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: Daniel Grolin <mailto:dgrolin%40yahoo.com>
            > To: ane <mailto:ane-2%40yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:13 PM
            > Subject: [ANE-2] Zoroastrianism and its influence on Jewish thought
            >
            >
            > Hi,
            >
            > I am interested in what the current attitudes are as to the influence of Zoroastrianism on Jewish thought. I am in particular interested in the Copenhagen school of thought's views on this matter. Can someone provide a summary and or references?
            >
            > Regards,
            >
            > Daniel Grolin
            > Århus, Denmark
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Clark Whelton
            I suggest: Zoroastrianism: An Introduction by Jenny Rose, Visiting Associate Professor of Religion at Stanford. (I.B. Tauris, 2011).
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 17 2:22 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              I suggest:

              "Zoroastrianism: An Introduction"
              by Jenny Rose, Visiting Associate Professor of Religion at Stanford.
              (I.B. Tauris, 2011).
              http://www.amazon.com/Zoroastrianism-Introduction-Introductions-Jenny-Rose/dp/1848850883

              See also her "The Image of Zoroaster: The Persian Mage Through European
              Eyes" (2000).


              Clark Whelton
              New York, NY



              > Hi,
              >
              > I am interested in what the current attitudes are as to the influence of
              Zoroastrianism on Jewish thought. I am in particular interested in the
              Copenhagen school of thought's views on this matter. Can someone provide a
              summary and or references?
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > Daniel Grolin
              > Århus, Denmark
            • Daniel Grolin
              Hi, I just wanted to thank everyone who contributed to this thread and provided leads. Regards, Daniel Grolin Århus ... [Non-text portions of this message
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 18 10:58 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi,

                I just wanted to thank everyone who contributed to this thread and provided leads.

                Regards,

                Daniel Grolin
                Århus





                >________________________________
                > From: Graham Hagens <rgrahamh@...>
                >To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                >Sent: Sunday, 17 March 2013, 15:28
                >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Zoroastrianism and its influence on Jewish thought
                >
                >

                >
                >Thank you Judith for this help
                >By the phrase 'Judeo-Christian ...thinking' I had in mind the pre-Talmudic fusion of concepts during the last couple of centuries BCE which so influenced Christianity.  I will pursue these various links.

                >Graham Hagens
                >Hamilton, ON 
                >
                >________________________________
                >From: Judith Lerner <judith.lerner@...>
                >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
                >Sent: Saturday, March 16, 2013 7:10 PM
                >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Zoroastrianism and its influence on Jewish thought
                >

                >I'm not sure what you mean by "Jewish thought," but there exists a robust literature and on-going discussion about the interactions between Judaism and Zoroastrianism, especially regarding the Babylonian Talmud. I'm preparing for a conference now and have no time to cite specifics, but, for starters, see the publications of Shaul Shaked; Yaakov Elman; Geoffrey Herman; and Shai Secunda via a Google search or Academia.edu where publication lists and some actual articles are posted. See, too, the conference proceedings of "Talmud in its Iranian Context," eds. C. Bakhos and R. Shayegan (Mohr Siebeck, 2010). If you contact me off-list in another week with what you've found, perhaps I can supplement it.
                >
                >You may also wish to post your query to mailto:Iranian-studies%40yahoogroups.com and mailto:SASAN-L%40yahoogroups.com.
                >______
                >Judith Lerner, PhD
                >Research Associate
                >Institute for the Study of the Ancient World
                >New York University
                >15 East 84 Street
                >New York, NY 10028
                >
                >On Mar 16, 2013, at 2:09 PM, Graham Hagens wrote:
                >
                >> I was hoping for list members more knowledgeable than I to respond to this extremely complex question. In the interim, however, here is an indirect 2 cents contribution.
                >>
                >> Any answer to this question must involve the broader question of the nature of religio-syncretic studies The collation of essays in Leopold & Jensen (Syncretism in Religion, Equinox, 2004), helps to understand why syncretism tends to languish somewhere between an academic backwater and outright taboo. (Cf. in that volume: Pye [1971]Syncretism and Ambiquity; Kurt [1992].Syncretism: From Theological Invective to a Concept in the Study of Religion; Baird [1991] Syncretism and the History of Religions).
                >>
                >> No true believers like to admit that their core values might have been compromised by outsiders, and so in spite of strong evidence that Zoroastrianism strongly influenced Greek, Judeo-Christian and South Asian thinking between ~600BCE-~300CE, this topic nowhere achieves the status of a recognised academic discipline. Mary Boyce touches on Zoroastrian influence on Judaism in several passages in her History, but I don't believe she gave it a thorough treatment anywhere - at least nothing like Martin West's contribution to Greek philosophy. Thomas McEvilley's excellent Shape of Ancient Thought, (Allworth 2002) has some references to Persian/Jewish syncretism - but it is not a core focus of his study.
                >>
                >> One major problem affecting all Zoroastrian studies - and one of particular concern of 'objectivist' archae-historians such as the so-called 'Copenhagen School', is that there are no primary documents. This, not only because so many Persian documents were written on perishable materials, but because Zoroastrianism was an oral tradition, not committed to hard copy until Islamic times, perhaps two millennia after the compostion of the earliest gathas, and a millennium later than the timeframe of maximum contact with Judeo-Christianity.
                >>
                >> So as far as I am aware a major study on Zoroastrian/Judeo-Christian syncretism has yet to be written. If anyone can correct this impression I would be delighted to learn of it.
                >>
                >> Graham Hagens
                >> Hamilton Ontario
                >>
                >>
                >> ________________________________
                >> From: Daniel Grolin <mailto:dgrolin%40yahoo.com>
                >> To: ane <mailto:ane-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                >> Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:13 PM
                >> Subject: [ANE-2] Zoroastrianism and its influence on Jewish thought
                >>
                >>
                >> Hi,
                >>
                >> I am interested in what the current attitudes are as to the influence of Zoroastrianism on Jewish thought. I am in particular interested in the Copenhagen school of thought's views on this matter. Can someone provide a summary and or references?
                >>
                >> Regards,
                >>
                >> Daniel Grolin
                >> Århus, Denmark
                >>
                >
                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Stewart Felker
                I wrote a little summary about some of the proposed influences here:
                Message 7 of 8 , Mar 18 11:20 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  I wrote a little summary about some of the proposed influences here:
                  http://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/19by72/wednesday_ama_jewish_history_panel/c8n759a


                  Stewart Felker
                  University of Memphis






                  On Sat, Mar 16, 2013 at 1:09 PM, Graham Hagens <rgrahamh@...> wrote:

                  > **
                  >
                  >
                  > I was hoping for list members more knowledgeable than I to respond to this
                  > extremely complex question. In the interim, however, here is an indirect 2
                  > cents contribution.
                  >
                  > Any answer to this question must involve the broader question of the
                  > nature of religio-syncretic studies The collation of essays in Leopold &
                  > Jensen (Syncretism in Religion, Equinox, 2004), helps to understand
                  > why syncretism tends to languish somewhere between an academic backwater
                  > and outright taboo. (Cf. in that volume: Pye [1971]Syncretism and
                  > Ambiquity; Kurt [1992].Syncretism: From Theological Invective to a Concept
                  > in the Study of Religion; Baird [1991] Syncretism and the History of
                  > Religions).
                  >
                  > No true believers like to admit that their core values might have been
                  > compromised by outsiders, and so in spite of strong evidence
                  > that Zoroastrianism strongly influenced Greek, Judeo-Christian and South
                  > Asian thinking between ~600BCE-~300CE, this topic nowhere achieves the
                  > status of a recognised academic discipline. Mary Boyce touches on
                  > Zoroastrian influence on Judaism in several passages in her History, but I
                  > don't believe she gave it a thorough treatment anywhere - at least nothing
                  > like Martin West's contribution to Greek philosophy. Thomas McEvilley's
                  > excellent Shape of Ancient Thought, (Allworth 2002) has some references
                  > to Persian/Jewish syncretism - but it is not a core focus of his study.
                  >
                  > One major problem affecting all Zoroastrian studies - and one of
                  > particular concern of 'objectivist' archae-historians such as
                  > the so-called 'Copenhagen School', is that there are no primary documents.
                  > This, not only because so many Persian documents were written on perishable
                  > materials, but because Zoroastrianism was an oral tradition, not committed
                  > to hard copy until Islamic times, perhaps two millennia after the
                  > compostion of the earliest gathas, and a millennium later than the
                  > timeframe of maximum contact with Judeo-Christianity.
                  >
                  > So as far as I am aware a major study on Zoroastrian/Judeo-Christian
                  > syncretism has yet to be written. If anyone can correct this impression I
                  > would be delighted to learn of it.
                  >
                  > Graham Hagens
                  > Hamilton Ontario
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: Daniel Grolin <dgrolin@...>
                  > To: ane <ane-2@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 6:13 PM
                  > Subject: [ANE-2] Zoroastrianism and its influence on Jewish thought
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi,
                  >
                  > I am interested in what the current attitudes are as to the influence of
                  > Zoroastrianism on Jewish thought. I am in particular interested in the
                  > Copenhagen school of thought's views on this matter. Can someone provide a
                  > summary and or references?
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  >
                  > Daniel Grolin
                  > �rhus, Denmark
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • aren
                  If I may throw in what might be a marginal addition to this thread, please note that I published a few years ago two articles that discuss the material and
                  Message 8 of 8 , Mar 18 7:39 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    If I may throw in what might be a marginal addition to this thread, please note that I published a few years ago two articles that discuss the material and literary evidence for the connections between the Land of Israel/Palestine and Iran (or Iranian occupied Babylonia), primarily during the Roman/Byzantine periods.
                    See:
                    * Maeir, A. M. "Sassanica Varia Palaestiniensia: A Sassanian seal from T. Istaba, Israel, and other Sassanian objects from the southern Levant." Iranica Antiqua 35 (2000): 159-183.
                    Safrai, Z., and A. M. Maeir. "‮ אתא אגרתא ממערבא‬(" An Epistle Came from the West"): Historical and Archaeological Evidence for the Ties between the Jewish Communities in the Land of Israel and Babylonia during the Talmudic Period." The Jewish Quarterly Review (2003): 497-531.

                    Hope this helps,

                    Aren Maeir
                    gath.wordpress.com
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.