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Re: [ANE-2] Re: Various Hellenic Toponyms

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  • Joachim Friedrich Quack
    ... May I point out that there is a substantial discussion of the Hau-nebut in J.F. Quack, Das Problem der O#w-nb.wt, in: A. Luther, R. Rollinger, J.
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 29, 2012
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      Am 29.12.2012 00:20, schrieb Jon Smyth:
      >
      >
      >
      > Dear Dr. Maravelia.
      >
      > Those toponyms are both sourced and discussed in Caphtor/Keftiu, A New
      > Investigation, John Strange, 1980.
      >
      > The names you identify all predate the Hellenic period (500-300 BCE).
      > Before this period Hau Nebu is used in reference to coastal Syria, and
      > Tinay has been linked with Adana as a possibility. And prior to 500
      > BCE Keftiu remains unidentifed, however, at the end of the Hellenic
      > Period Crete is factually identified as Gerty/Kerty and Keftiu
      > associated with the Phoenician coast.
      >
      > Jon Smyth
      > Kitchener, ON. CAN
      >
      May I point out that there is a substantial discussion of the Hau-nebut
      in J.F. Quack, Das Problem der O#w-nb.wt, in: A. Luther, R. Rollinger,
      J. Wiesehöfer (Hrsg.), Getrennte Wege? Kommunikation, Raum und
      Wahrnehmung in der Alten Welt, Oikumene 3 (Frankfurt 2007), 331-362.,
      where the claim that in older times it refers to coastal Syria (or even
      the northernmost regions of Egypt) is refuted. For Keftiu also, there
      are more recent important discussions concluding quite unanimously that
      in older periods it refers to Crete; I would like to mention my own in
      /kft#w/und /|#Èy/, Ägypten und Levante 6 (1996), 75-81 (with further
      references).

      Joachim Quack
      Ägyptologisches Institut, Universität heidelberg


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Michael F. Lane
      Dear Stewart, Thanks for this and the other reference. I have read neither. I will read them now. Being a Mycenologist, they are a bit outside my area. Best,
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 29, 2012
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        Dear Stewart,

        Thanks for this and the other reference. I have read neither. I will read
        them now. Being a Mycenologist, they are a bit outside my area.

        Best,

        Michael Lane
        University of Maryland Baltimore County


        > Have you consulted Paul Naster, “De la representation symbolique du dieu
        > Assur aux premiers types monιtaires achemιnides,” in Compte rendu de
        > l’onziθme Rencontre assyriologique internationale (Leiden: Nederlands
        > Instituut voor het Nabije Oosten, 1964)?
        >
        >
        > Stewart Felker
        > University of Memphis
        >
        > On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 11:59 AM, Michael F. Lane <mflane@...> wrote:
        >
        >> Dear all,
        >>
        >> Can any point me to some good summary sources on the origin and
        >> development of the god in the winged wheel motif, associated first (?)
        >> with Ashur and eventually with Ahura Mazda?
        >>
        >>
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Jon Smyth
        Thankyou for the Hau-nebu reference Dr. Quack, much appreciated. I do always find it interesting that when Keftiu and Asy have been enumerated in pharaonic
        Message 3 of 12 , Jan 5, 2013
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          Thankyou for the Hau-nebu reference Dr. Quack, much appreciated.

          I do always find it interesting that when Keftiu and Asy have been enumerated in pharaonic conquest lists among such names as Naharin, Khatti, Ugarit and Kadesh, etc., it is felt necessary to look for arguments to try disassociate Keftiu and Asy from the group.
          Certainly, Thutmosis is not trying to claim conquest over the island of Crete.

          We do know that Keftiu was located circa. 4th century BCE on the Phoenecian coast. We also know that over the Lebanon mnts. to the east, runs the Asy(Isy) river, today called Orontes, and locally it still retains its ancient name. Keftiu & Asy were in close proximity to each other, as suggested in the list ascribed to Thutmosis III where he comes to conquer "the west", which was Amurru.

          As we know, Amurru was bordered on the west by the Med. and to the north and east by the curvature of the Orontes (Asy).

          I appreciate that you feel a unanimous conclusion can be reached but in the face of a complete lack of verification in the ancient world, any conclusion which attempts to remove Keftiu & Asy from Amurru must still be debatable.

          Kind regards, Jon Smyth
          Kitchener, Ont.



          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Joachim Friedrich Quack wrote:
          >

          > May I point out that there is a substantial discussion of the Hau-nebut
          > in J.F. Quack, Das Problem der O#w-nb.wt, in: A. Luther, R. Rollinger,
          > J. Wiesehöfer (Hrsg.), Getrennte Wege? Kommunikation, Raum und
          > Wahrnehmung in der Alten Welt, Oikumene 3 (Frankfurt 2007), 331-362.,
          > where the claim that in older times it refers to coastal Syria (or even
          > the northernmost regions of Egypt) is refuted. For Keftiu also, there
          > are more recent important discussions concluding quite unanimously that
          > in older periods it refers to Crete; I would like to mention my own in
          > /kft#w/und /|#Èy/, Ägypten und Levante 6 (1996), 75-81 (with further
          > references).
          >
          > Joachim Quack
          > Ägyptologisches Institut, Universität heidelberg
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Joachim Friedrich Quack
          ... Dear Mr Smyth, Please read the details in the articles I mentioned; and check the totallity of attestations for kftiw a bit more in detail. If an Egyptian
          Message 4 of 12 , Jan 6, 2013
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            Am 05.01.2013 19:18, schrieb Jon Smyth:
            >
            >
            >
            > Thankyou for the Hau-nebu reference Dr. Quack, much appreciated.
            >
            > I do always find it interesting that when Keftiu and Asy have been
            > enumerated in pharaonic conquest lists among such names as Naharin,
            > Khatti, Ugarit and Kadesh, etc., it is felt necessary to look for
            > arguments to try disassociate Keftiu and Asy from the group.
            > Certainly, Thutmosis is not trying to claim conquest over the island
            > of Crete.
            >
            > We do know that Keftiu was located circa. 4th century BCE on the
            > Phoenecian coast. We also know that over the Lebanon mnts. to the
            > east, runs the Asy(Isy) river, today called Orontes, and locally it
            > still retains its ancient name. Keftiu & Asy were in close proximity
            > to each other, as suggested in the list ascribed to Thutmosis III
            > where he comes to conquer "the west", which was Amurru.
            >
            > As we know, Amurru was bordered on the west by the Med. and to the
            > north and east by the curvature of the Orontes (Asy).
            >
            > I appreciate that you feel a unanimous conclusion can be reached but
            > in the face of a complete lack of verification in the ancient world,
            > any conclusion which attempts to remove Keftiu & Asy from Amurru must
            > still be debatable.
            >
            > Kind regards, Jon Smyth
            > Kitchener, Ont.
            >
            Dear Mr Smyth,

            Please read the details in the articles I mentioned; and check the
            totallity of attestations for kftiw a bit more in detail.
            If an Egyptian sources speaks of the 'west' (as see from Egypt),
            obviously it does not referr to the region of the Levant.
            Which specific 'list' of Thutmosis III do you have in mind? If it is (as
            I suspect) the 'poetic stele' (Urk. IV 616, 2), then you should really
            check in more detail. The text is not a conquest list; it is a highly
            poetic claim of universal awe before the pharaoh. It covers all regions
            within reach of Egypt (e.g. also Libya). Keftiu and Isy are the only
            toponyms indicated there for the 'West land'.

            Yours,

            Joachim Quack


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • ehcline
            Mr. Smyth -- Your hypothesis is negated by the appearance of Keftiu on the Aegean List of Amenhotep III, where it is clearly associated with placenames from
            Message 5 of 12 , Jan 6, 2013
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              Mr. Smyth --

              Your hypothesis is negated by the appearance of Keftiu on the "Aegean List" of Amenhotep III, where it is clearly associated with placenames from the Aegean. Its location in the Aegean, rather than the Levant, during the Bronze Age is not debatable, contrary to your statements. I have published on this numerous times, if you need references, you need only ask; the most recent appears in the online Journal of Ancient Egyptian Interconnections. For additional occurrences of Keftiu and other references to the Aegean in New Kingdom Egypt, you and others will want to consult my book Sailing the Wine-Dark Sea: International Trade and the Late Bronze Age Aegean, originally published in 1994 and reissued in 2009.

              Cheers,

              Eric H. Cline


              --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Joachim Friedrich Quack wrote:
              >
              > Am 05.01.2013 19:18, schrieb Jon Smyth:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Thankyou for the Hau-nebu reference Dr. Quack, much appreciated.
              > >
              > > I do always find it interesting that when Keftiu and Asy have been
              > > enumerated in pharaonic conquest lists among such names as Naharin,
              > > Khatti, Ugarit and Kadesh, etc., it is felt necessary to look for
              > > arguments to try disassociate Keftiu and Asy from the group.
              > > Certainly, Thutmosis is not trying to claim conquest over the island
              > > of Crete.
              > >
              > > We do know that Keftiu was located circa. 4th century BCE on the
              > > Phoenecian coast. We also know that over the Lebanon mnts. to the
              > > east, runs the Asy(Isy) river, today called Orontes, and locally it
              > > still retains its ancient name. Keftiu & Asy were in close proximity
              > > to each other, as suggested in the list ascribed to Thutmosis III
              > > where he comes to conquer "the west", which was Amurru.
              > >
              > > As we know, Amurru was bordered on the west by the Med. and to the
              > > north and east by the curvature of the Orontes (Asy).
              > >
              > > I appreciate that you feel a unanimous conclusion can be reached but
              > > in the face of a complete lack of verification in the ancient world,
              > > any conclusion which attempts to remove Keftiu & Asy from Amurru must
              > > still be debatable.
              > >
              > > Kind regards, Jon Smyth
              > > Kitchener, Ont.
              > >
              > Dear Mr Smyth,
              >
              > Please read the details in the articles I mentioned; and check the
              > totallity of attestations for kftiw a bit more in detail.
              > If an Egyptian sources speaks of the 'west' (as see from Egypt),
              > obviously it does not referr to the region of the Levant.
              > Which specific 'list' of Thutmosis III do you have in mind? If it is (as
              > I suspect) the 'poetic stele' (Urk. IV 616, 2), then you should really
              > check in more detail. The text is not a conquest list; it is a highly
              > poetic claim of universal awe before the pharaoh. It covers all regions
              > within reach of Egypt (e.g. also Libya). Keftiu and Isy are the only
              > toponyms indicated there for the 'West land'.
              >
              > Yours,
              >
              > Joachim Quack
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
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