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Ashur and Ahura Mazda

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  • Michael F. Lane
    Dear all, Can any point me to some good summary sources on the origin and development of the god in the winged wheel motif, associated first (?) with Ashur and
    Message 1 of 12 , Dec 28, 2012
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      Dear all,

      Can any point me to some good summary sources on the origin and
      development of the god in the winged wheel motif, associated first (?)
      with Ashur and eventually with Ahura Mazda?

      All best wishes for the holidays,

      Michael F. Lane
      Univ. of Maryland Baltimore County

      --
      Dr. Michael Franklin Lane
      Co-Director, AROURA
      Ancient Studies Department
      University of Maryland, Baltimore County
      Fine Arts Building, Room 452
      1000 Hilltop Circle
      Baltimore, MD 21250, USA
      Tel. +1-410-455-6265 / Fax +1-410-455-1660
      Skype: barrenador
      http://www.umbc.edu/aroura
    • Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
      See W. G. Lambert, Trees, Snakes and Gods in Ancient Syria and Anatolia ,/Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies//, University of London /48,
      Message 2 of 12 , Dec 28, 2012
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        See W. G. Lambert, 'Trees, Snakes and Gods in Ancient Syria and
        Anatolia',/Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies//,
        University of London /48, 1985, pp. 435-451; T. Orman, 'A Complex System
        of Religous Symhols: The Case of the Winged Disc in Near Eastern Imagery
        of the First Millennium BCE', in C. E. Suter and C. Uehlinger (edd.),
        /Crafts and Images in Contact. Studies on Eastern Mediterranean Art of
        the First Millenium BCE /(Fribourg, Academic Press, 2005), pp. 207-241,
        especially 207-210; S.W. Holloway, /As(s(ur is King ! As(s(ur is King !
        Religion in the Exercise of Power in the Neo-Assyrian Empire/
        (Leiden-Boston-Ko"ln, Brill, 2002), pp. 66-67 ; M. A. Atac,, /The
        Mythology of Kingship in Neo-Assyrian Art/ (Cambridge, CU.P., 2011), pp.
        126-128 (overly speculative).

        I hope this will help you begin.

        J.-F. Nardelli
        Universite' de Provence.


        Le 28/12/2012 18:59, Michael F. Lane a e'crit :
        > Dear all,
        >
        > Can any point me to some good summary sources on the origin and
        > development of the god in the winged wheel motif, associated first (?)
        > with Ashur and eventually with Ahura Mazda?
        >
        > All best wishes for the holidays,
        >
        > Michael F. Lane
        > Univ. of Maryland Baltimore County
        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jon Smyth
        Dear Dr. Maravelia. Those toponyms are both sourced and discussed in Caphtor/Keftiu, A New Investigation, John Strange, 1980. The names you identify all
        Message 3 of 12 , Dec 28, 2012
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          Dear Dr. Maravelia.

          Those toponyms are both sourced and discussed in Caphtor/Keftiu, A New Investigation, John Strange, 1980.

          The names you identify all predate the Hellenic period (500-300 BCE).
          Before this period Hau Nebu is used in reference to coastal Syria, and Tinay has been linked with Adana as a possibility. And prior to 500 BCE Keftiu remains unidentifed, however, at the end of the Hellenic Period Crete is factually identified as Gerty/Kerty and Keftiu associated with the Phoenician coast.

          Jon Smyth
          Kitchener, ON. CAN


          --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Amanda-Alice Maravelia <a_maravelia@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > Dear List:
          >
          > I am looking for Hellenic Toponyms, as many as possible, like e.g.: H3w-nbwt/Aegean, Kftjw/Crete, Tny/Rhodos, Mnws/Minos,
          > & c. Is there any CORPUS with them, referring also to where they are met, i.e.: in which anc. Egyptian texts or other sources
          > or monuments (like for instance the Tomb of Rekhmire, and so on)? I would be very grateful for any answer off-list.
          >
          > Many thanks & Merry Christmas wishes,
          >
          > Dr Amanda-Alice Maravelia
          > Hellenic Institute of Egyptology
          > [ http://hiegaker.wordpress.com ]
          >
        • Stewart Felker
          Have you consulted Paul Naster, “De la representation symbolique du dieu Assur aux premiers types monétaires acheménides,” in Compte rendu de
          Message 4 of 12 , Dec 28, 2012
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            Have you consulted Paul Naster, �De la representation symbolique du dieu
            Assur aux premiers types mon�taires achem�nides,� in Compte rendu de
            l�onzi�me Rencontre assyriologique internationale (Leiden: Nederlands
            Instituut voor het Nabije Oosten, 1964)?


            Stewart Felker
            University of Memphis

            On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 11:59 AM, Michael F. Lane <mflane@...> wrote:

            > Dear all,
            >
            > Can any point me to some good summary sources on the origin and
            > development of the god in the winged wheel motif, associated first (?)
            > with Ashur and eventually with Ahura Mazda?
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Stewart Felker
            There may also be some useful bibliographical info in Winford s _Aššur is King! Aššur is King!: Religion in the Exercise of Power in the Neo-Assyrian
            Message 5 of 12 , Dec 28, 2012
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              There may also be some useful bibliographical info in Winford's _Aššur is
              King! Aššur is King!: Religion in the Exercise of Power in the Neo-Assyrian
              Empire_ (p. 170, n. 298).


              Stewart Felker


              > On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 11:59 AM, Michael F. Lane <mflane@...> wrote:
              >
              >> Dear all,
              >>
              >> Can any point me to some good summary sources on the origin and
              >> development of the god in the winged wheel motif, associated first (?)
              >> with Ashur and eventually with Ahura Mazda?
              >>
              >>


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Joachim Friedrich Quack
              ... May I point out that there is a substantial discussion of the Hau-nebut in J.F. Quack, Das Problem der O#w-nb.wt, in: A. Luther, R. Rollinger, J.
              Message 6 of 12 , Dec 29, 2012
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                Am 29.12.2012 00:20, schrieb Jon Smyth:
                >
                >
                >
                > Dear Dr. Maravelia.
                >
                > Those toponyms are both sourced and discussed in Caphtor/Keftiu, A New
                > Investigation, John Strange, 1980.
                >
                > The names you identify all predate the Hellenic period (500-300 BCE).
                > Before this period Hau Nebu is used in reference to coastal Syria, and
                > Tinay has been linked with Adana as a possibility. And prior to 500
                > BCE Keftiu remains unidentifed, however, at the end of the Hellenic
                > Period Crete is factually identified as Gerty/Kerty and Keftiu
                > associated with the Phoenician coast.
                >
                > Jon Smyth
                > Kitchener, ON. CAN
                >
                May I point out that there is a substantial discussion of the Hau-nebut
                in J.F. Quack, Das Problem der O#w-nb.wt, in: A. Luther, R. Rollinger,
                J. Wiesehöfer (Hrsg.), Getrennte Wege? Kommunikation, Raum und
                Wahrnehmung in der Alten Welt, Oikumene 3 (Frankfurt 2007), 331-362.,
                where the claim that in older times it refers to coastal Syria (or even
                the northernmost regions of Egypt) is refuted. For Keftiu also, there
                are more recent important discussions concluding quite unanimously that
                in older periods it refers to Crete; I would like to mention my own in
                /kft#w/und /|#Èy/, Ägypten und Levante 6 (1996), 75-81 (with further
                references).

                Joachim Quack
                Ägyptologisches Institut, Universität heidelberg


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Michael F. Lane
                Dear Stewart, Thanks for this and the other reference. I have read neither. I will read them now. Being a Mycenologist, they are a bit outside my area. Best,
                Message 7 of 12 , Dec 29, 2012
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                  Dear Stewart,

                  Thanks for this and the other reference. I have read neither. I will read
                  them now. Being a Mycenologist, they are a bit outside my area.

                  Best,

                  Michael Lane
                  University of Maryland Baltimore County


                  > Have you consulted Paul Naster, “De la representation symbolique du dieu
                  > Assur aux premiers types monιtaires achemιnides,” in Compte rendu de
                  > l’onziθme Rencontre assyriologique internationale (Leiden: Nederlands
                  > Instituut voor het Nabije Oosten, 1964)?
                  >
                  >
                  > Stewart Felker
                  > University of Memphis
                  >
                  > On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 11:59 AM, Michael F. Lane <mflane@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >> Dear all,
                  >>
                  >> Can any point me to some good summary sources on the origin and
                  >> development of the god in the winged wheel motif, associated first (?)
                  >> with Ashur and eventually with Ahura Mazda?
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Jon Smyth
                  Thankyou for the Hau-nebu reference Dr. Quack, much appreciated. I do always find it interesting that when Keftiu and Asy have been enumerated in pharaonic
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jan 5, 2013
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                    Thankyou for the Hau-nebu reference Dr. Quack, much appreciated.

                    I do always find it interesting that when Keftiu and Asy have been enumerated in pharaonic conquest lists among such names as Naharin, Khatti, Ugarit and Kadesh, etc., it is felt necessary to look for arguments to try disassociate Keftiu and Asy from the group.
                    Certainly, Thutmosis is not trying to claim conquest over the island of Crete.

                    We do know that Keftiu was located circa. 4th century BCE on the Phoenecian coast. We also know that over the Lebanon mnts. to the east, runs the Asy(Isy) river, today called Orontes, and locally it still retains its ancient name. Keftiu & Asy were in close proximity to each other, as suggested in the list ascribed to Thutmosis III where he comes to conquer "the west", which was Amurru.

                    As we know, Amurru was bordered on the west by the Med. and to the north and east by the curvature of the Orontes (Asy).

                    I appreciate that you feel a unanimous conclusion can be reached but in the face of a complete lack of verification in the ancient world, any conclusion which attempts to remove Keftiu & Asy from Amurru must still be debatable.

                    Kind regards, Jon Smyth
                    Kitchener, Ont.



                    --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Joachim Friedrich Quack wrote:
                    >

                    > May I point out that there is a substantial discussion of the Hau-nebut
                    > in J.F. Quack, Das Problem der O#w-nb.wt, in: A. Luther, R. Rollinger,
                    > J. Wiesehöfer (Hrsg.), Getrennte Wege? Kommunikation, Raum und
                    > Wahrnehmung in der Alten Welt, Oikumene 3 (Frankfurt 2007), 331-362.,
                    > where the claim that in older times it refers to coastal Syria (or even
                    > the northernmost regions of Egypt) is refuted. For Keftiu also, there
                    > are more recent important discussions concluding quite unanimously that
                    > in older periods it refers to Crete; I would like to mention my own in
                    > /kft#w/und /|#Èy/, Ägypten und Levante 6 (1996), 75-81 (with further
                    > references).
                    >
                    > Joachim Quack
                    > Ägyptologisches Institut, Universität heidelberg
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                  • Joachim Friedrich Quack
                    ... Dear Mr Smyth, Please read the details in the articles I mentioned; and check the totallity of attestations for kftiw a bit more in detail. If an Egyptian
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jan 6, 2013
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                      Am 05.01.2013 19:18, schrieb Jon Smyth:
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Thankyou for the Hau-nebu reference Dr. Quack, much appreciated.
                      >
                      > I do always find it interesting that when Keftiu and Asy have been
                      > enumerated in pharaonic conquest lists among such names as Naharin,
                      > Khatti, Ugarit and Kadesh, etc., it is felt necessary to look for
                      > arguments to try disassociate Keftiu and Asy from the group.
                      > Certainly, Thutmosis is not trying to claim conquest over the island
                      > of Crete.
                      >
                      > We do know that Keftiu was located circa. 4th century BCE on the
                      > Phoenecian coast. We also know that over the Lebanon mnts. to the
                      > east, runs the Asy(Isy) river, today called Orontes, and locally it
                      > still retains its ancient name. Keftiu & Asy were in close proximity
                      > to each other, as suggested in the list ascribed to Thutmosis III
                      > where he comes to conquer "the west", which was Amurru.
                      >
                      > As we know, Amurru was bordered on the west by the Med. and to the
                      > north and east by the curvature of the Orontes (Asy).
                      >
                      > I appreciate that you feel a unanimous conclusion can be reached but
                      > in the face of a complete lack of verification in the ancient world,
                      > any conclusion which attempts to remove Keftiu & Asy from Amurru must
                      > still be debatable.
                      >
                      > Kind regards, Jon Smyth
                      > Kitchener, Ont.
                      >
                      Dear Mr Smyth,

                      Please read the details in the articles I mentioned; and check the
                      totallity of attestations for kftiw a bit more in detail.
                      If an Egyptian sources speaks of the 'west' (as see from Egypt),
                      obviously it does not referr to the region of the Levant.
                      Which specific 'list' of Thutmosis III do you have in mind? If it is (as
                      I suspect) the 'poetic stele' (Urk. IV 616, 2), then you should really
                      check in more detail. The text is not a conquest list; it is a highly
                      poetic claim of universal awe before the pharaoh. It covers all regions
                      within reach of Egypt (e.g. also Libya). Keftiu and Isy are the only
                      toponyms indicated there for the 'West land'.

                      Yours,

                      Joachim Quack


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • ehcline
                      Mr. Smyth -- Your hypothesis is negated by the appearance of Keftiu on the Aegean List of Amenhotep III, where it is clearly associated with placenames from
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jan 6, 2013
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                        Mr. Smyth --

                        Your hypothesis is negated by the appearance of Keftiu on the "Aegean List" of Amenhotep III, where it is clearly associated with placenames from the Aegean. Its location in the Aegean, rather than the Levant, during the Bronze Age is not debatable, contrary to your statements. I have published on this numerous times, if you need references, you need only ask; the most recent appears in the online Journal of Ancient Egyptian Interconnections. For additional occurrences of Keftiu and other references to the Aegean in New Kingdom Egypt, you and others will want to consult my book Sailing the Wine-Dark Sea: International Trade and the Late Bronze Age Aegean, originally published in 1994 and reissued in 2009.

                        Cheers,

                        Eric H. Cline


                        --- In ANE-2@yahoogroups.com, Joachim Friedrich Quack wrote:
                        >
                        > Am 05.01.2013 19:18, schrieb Jon Smyth:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Thankyou for the Hau-nebu reference Dr. Quack, much appreciated.
                        > >
                        > > I do always find it interesting that when Keftiu and Asy have been
                        > > enumerated in pharaonic conquest lists among such names as Naharin,
                        > > Khatti, Ugarit and Kadesh, etc., it is felt necessary to look for
                        > > arguments to try disassociate Keftiu and Asy from the group.
                        > > Certainly, Thutmosis is not trying to claim conquest over the island
                        > > of Crete.
                        > >
                        > > We do know that Keftiu was located circa. 4th century BCE on the
                        > > Phoenecian coast. We also know that over the Lebanon mnts. to the
                        > > east, runs the Asy(Isy) river, today called Orontes, and locally it
                        > > still retains its ancient name. Keftiu & Asy were in close proximity
                        > > to each other, as suggested in the list ascribed to Thutmosis III
                        > > where he comes to conquer "the west", which was Amurru.
                        > >
                        > > As we know, Amurru was bordered on the west by the Med. and to the
                        > > north and east by the curvature of the Orontes (Asy).
                        > >
                        > > I appreciate that you feel a unanimous conclusion can be reached but
                        > > in the face of a complete lack of verification in the ancient world,
                        > > any conclusion which attempts to remove Keftiu & Asy from Amurru must
                        > > still be debatable.
                        > >
                        > > Kind regards, Jon Smyth
                        > > Kitchener, Ont.
                        > >
                        > Dear Mr Smyth,
                        >
                        > Please read the details in the articles I mentioned; and check the
                        > totallity of attestations for kftiw a bit more in detail.
                        > If an Egyptian sources speaks of the 'west' (as see from Egypt),
                        > obviously it does not referr to the region of the Levant.
                        > Which specific 'list' of Thutmosis III do you have in mind? If it is (as
                        > I suspect) the 'poetic stele' (Urk. IV 616, 2), then you should really
                        > check in more detail. The text is not a conquest list; it is a highly
                        > poetic claim of universal awe before the pharaoh. It covers all regions
                        > within reach of Egypt (e.g. also Libya). Keftiu and Isy are the only
                        > toponyms indicated there for the 'West land'.
                        >
                        > Yours,
                        >
                        > Joachim Quack
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
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