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RE: [ANE-2] Archaeology of salvation

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  • Amanda-Alice Maravelia
    Good Day Mr Grolin: Interesting questions, indeed! The idea of salvation should be initially sought for in the ancient Egyptian funerary beliefs, especially in
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 12, 2012
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      Good Day Mr Grolin:

      Interesting questions, indeed! The idea of salvation should be initially sought for in the ancient Egyptian
      funerary beliefs, especially in the last judgement and the weighing of the heart. I am giving the following
      works that might help:

      - Book of the Dead, mainly Spells 125 and 30. *** Definitely these ideas date back to the OK and the
      Pyramid Texts, so it is not just a late NK product!
      - Zandee, J.: �Death as an Enemy according to Ancient Egyptian Conceptions�, Studies in the History of Reli�gions:
      Supplements to Numen, 5, Leiden 1960, 25-31.

      An ancient Egyptian instance that could be characterized as "cosmopolitan" and definitely "non-nationa-
      listic" is the Great Hymn to the Aten of Pharaoh Amenophis IV./Akhenaten, for which see also:

      Redford, D.B.: Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient Times, NJ (Princeton University Press) 1992.

      The ideas of the Orphics (i.e.: those found in the ORPHIC HYMNS, not in the Lithika, & c.) are definitely
      much older than the era of their gathering by the doxographs of Peisistratos, that is 6th c. BC. This has
      been proven on the basis of archaeoastronomical evidence. The fact that the Orphic texts were used in
      a syncretistic manner, especially during the very Late Era is another thing ...

      Some works on the function and salvation of the person in Middle Eastern religions, you may find in:

      - Hornung, E.: Die Anf�nge von Monotheismus und Trinit�t in �gypten: Der eine Gott und der drei-
      eine Gott: Das Gottes�ver�st�ndris bei Christen, Juden und Muslimen (Rahner, K., ed.), M�nchen (Schnell
      & Steiner) 1983, 48-66.
      - Rupp, A.: Vergehen und Bleiben: Religionsgeschichtliche Studien zum Personenverst�ndnis in �gypten und im Al�ten
      Testa�ment, Saarbr�cken 1976.

      Finally, provided that you can read Hellenic there is a big and rich number of works on the Christian (and
      Paulian) consideration of salvation in the works of the Orthodox Fathers of Chriatianity, which you can find in
      the Patrologia Graeca. The basic doctrine is the salvation through the crucifying-death and Resurrection of the
      Christ, a fact that makes us as Orthodox Christians to celebrate the crucifixion in a "resurrectional" way,
      while e.g.: the Roman Catholics celebrate even Easter in a rather "crucifixional" way. Please do not consider
      these remarks as hints against non-Orthodox Christians, I am a very open-mided person ...

      Last but not least, I would highly recomend the book of the current Pontiff on Christ:

      Jesus von Nazareth - 1. Teil: Von der Taufe im Jordan bis zur Verkl�rung, Milano (RCS Libri S.p.A.) 2007,

      where Pope Benedikt XVI. makes many comparisons between Christianism and Judaism, through the eyes
      of a Jewish Priest. I hope this helps.

      Best regards,

      Dr. Dr. Amanda-Alice Maravelia

      Hellenic Institute of Egyptology
      http://hiegaker.wordpress.com





      To: ane-2@yahoogroups.com
      From: dgrolin@...
      Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 06:49:18 -0800
      Subject: [ANE-2] Archaeology of salvation





      Dear everyone,

      I am trying to uncover the various turns
      (in Foucaultian terms) in the idea of salvation. As I read the Hebrew Bible, it
      seems that salvation is closely tied to the idea of a national covenant, and
      that salvation with the territorial integrity of the Hebrew people. I have the
      studied the development of individualism in the wake of the collapse of
      Feudalism in Europe and the proliferation of class. However, it seems to me
      that there were significant turns before that. Surely the cosmopolitanism that
      Hellenism brought dislodged the individual�s relationship with religious
      affiliations from the geographic origin, but did this reorient ideas about one�s
      ultimate end to a blessed or damned afterlife? If so I don�t see why. Were some
      mystery religions such as the Orphic mysteries attractive because of the
      promise of personal salvation, or is that an anachronistic reading? What is
      Josephus doing when he is exploring the sect of Judaism that he wants to
      follow? How would someone in the ANE interpret Jesus healing a person, as the
      salvation of an individual or a member of the whole? What about Paul�s concept
      of salvation? I suspect that these answers are relevant, but I am unsure. Are
      there any good studies on this?

      Any help is appreciated.

      Warm regards,

      Daniel Grolin
      �rhus (no institutional affiliation)

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Daniel Grolin
      Dear Amanda-Alice, Thank you for sharing these thoughts and references. One thing in particular struck me was the survey Jan Zandee in “Death as an Enemy:
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 13, 2012
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        Dear Amanda-Alice,

        Thank you for sharing these thoughts and references. One thing in particular struck me was the survey Jan Zandee in “Death as an Enemy: According to Ancient Egyptian Conceptions”. There were some remarkable advances happening in Egypt, in part in the field of surgery. Typically such advances happen by exploring the corpses of the dead. The image of weighing a man’s heart to determine what kind of life he led has an oddly medical echo to it. I wonder if medical advances and the exploration of the dead body lead to recast what happened to the dead. This could be part of the turns I am looking for in my archeology of salvation. Thanks.

        Regards,

        Daniel Grolin
        Århus, DK







        >________________________________
        > From: Amanda-Alice Maravelia <a_maravelia@...>
        >To: "ane-2@yahoogroups.com" <ane-2@yahoogroups.com>
        >Sent: Wednesday, 12 December 2012, 20:29
        >Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Archaeology of salvation
        >
        >
        >
        >Good Day Mr Grolin:
        >
        >Interesting questions, indeed! The idea of salvation should be initially sought for in the ancient Egyptian
        >funerary beliefs, especially in the last judgement and the weighing of the heart. I am giving the following
        >works that might help:
        >
        >- Book of the Dead, mainly Spells 125 and 30. ***  Definitely these ideas date back to the OK and the
        >Pyramid Texts, so it is not just a late NK product!
        >- Zandee, J.: «Death as an Enemy according to Ancient Egyptian Conceptions», Studies in the History of Reli­gions:
        >Supplements to Numen, 5, Leiden 1960, 25-31.
        >
        >An ancient Egyptian instance that could be characterized as "cosmopolitan" and definitely "non-nationa-
        >listic" is the Great Hymn to the Aten of Pharaoh Amenophis IV./Akhenaten, for which see also:
        >
        >Redford, D.B.: Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient Times, NJ (Princeton University Press) 1992.
        >
        >The ideas of the Orphics (i.e.: those found in the ORPHIC HYMNS, not in the Lithika, & c.) are definitely
        >much older than the era of their gathering by the doxographs of Peisistratos, that is 6th c. BC. This has
        >been proven on the basis of archaeoastronomical evidence. The fact that the Orphic texts were used in
        >a syncretistic manner, especially during the very Late Era is another thing ...
        >
        >Some works on the function and salvation of the person in Middle Eastern religions, you may find in:
        >
        >- Hornung, E.: Die Anfänge von Monotheismus und Trinität in Ägypten: Der eine Gott und der drei-
        >eine Gott: Das Gottes­ver­ständris bei Christen, Juden und Muslimen (Rahner, K., ed.), München (Schnell
        >& Steiner) 1983, 48-66.
        >- Rupp, A.: Vergehen und Bleiben: Religionsgeschichtliche Studien zum Personenverständnis in Ägypten und im Al­ten
        >Testa­ment, Saarbrücken 1976.
        >
        >Finally, provided that you can read Hellenic there is a big and rich number of works on the Christian (and
        >Paulian) consideration of salvation in the works of the Orthodox Fathers of Chriatianity, which you can find in
        >the Patrologia Graeca. The basic doctrine is the salvation through the crucifying-death and Resurrection of the
        >Christ, a fact that makes us as Orthodox Christians to celebrate the crucifixion in a "resurrectional" way,
        >while e.g.: the Roman Catholics celebrate even Easter in a rather "crucifixional" way. Please do not consider
        >these remarks as hints against non-Orthodox Christians, I am a very open-mided person ...
        >
        >Last but not least, I would highly recomend the book of the current Pontiff on Christ:
        >
        >Jesus von Nazareth - 1. Teil: Von der Taufe im Jordan bis zur Verklärung, Milano (RCS Libri S.p.A.) 2007,
        >
        >where Pope Benedikt XVI. makes many comparisons between Christianism and Judaism, through the eyes
        >of a Jewish Priest. I hope this helps.
        >
        >Best regards,
        >
        >Dr. Dr. Amanda-Alice Maravelia
        >
        >Hellenic Institute of Egyptology
        >http://hiegaker.wordpress.com 
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >To: ane-2@yahoogroups.com
        >From: dgrolin@...
        >Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 06:49:18 -0800
        >Subject: [ANE-2] Archaeology of salvation
        >

        >
        >
        >
        >Dear everyone,
        >
        >I am trying to uncover the various turns
        >(in Foucaultian terms) in the idea of salvation. As I read the Hebrew Bible, it
        >seems that salvation is closely tied to the idea of a national covenant, and
        >that salvation with the territorial integrity of the Hebrew people. I have the
        >studied the development of individualism in the wake of the collapse of
        >Feudalism in Europe and the proliferation of class. However, it seems to me
        >that there were significant turns before that. Surely the cosmopolitanism that
        >Hellenism brought dislodged the individual’s relationship with religious
        >affiliations from the geographic origin, but did this reorient ideas about one’s
        >ultimate end to a blessed or damned afterlife? If so I don’t see why. Were some
        >mystery religions such as the Orphic mysteries attractive because of the
        >promise of personal salvation, or is that an anachronistic reading? What is
        >Josephus doing when he is exploring the sect of Judaism that he wants to
        >follow? How would someone in the ANE interpret Jesus healing a person, as the
        >salvation of an individual or a member of the whole? What about Paul’s concept
        >of salvation? I suspect that these answers are relevant, but I am unsure. Are
        >there any good studies on this?
        >
        >Any help is appreciated.
        >
        >Warm regards,
        >
        >Daniel Grolin
        >Århus (no institutional affiliation)
        >
        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >                       
        >
        >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >------------------------------------
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Amanda-Alice Maravelia
        Dear Daniel: You are welcome. I would like you to look also at the following book, that conatins an other plausible explanation of the origin of the sign of
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 15, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Daniel:

          You are welcome. I would like you to look also at the following book, that conatins an other plausible
          explanation of the origin of the sign of life (anx) in ancient Egypt, through a forensic and anthropological
          approach:

          Gordon, A.H. & Schwabe, C.W.: The Quick and the Dead: Biomedical Theory in Ancient Egypt, Leiden (Brill�Styx) 2004.

          Best wishes,

          A.-A.M.






          To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          From: dgrolin@...
          Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 08:30:28 -0800
          Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Archaeology of salvation





          Dear Amanda-Alice,

          Thank you for sharing these thoughts and references. One thing in particular struck me was the survey Jan Zandee in �Death as an Enemy: According to Ancient Egyptian Conceptions�. There were some remarkable advances happening in Egypt, in part in the field of surgery. Typically such advances happen by exploring the corpses of the dead. The image of weighing a man�s heart to determine what kind of life he led has an oddly medical echo to it. I wonder if medical advances and the exploration of the dead body lead to recast what happened to the dead. This could be part of the turns I am looking for in my archeology of salvation. Thanks.

          Regards,

          Daniel Grolin
          �rhus, DK

          >________________________________
          > From: Amanda-Alice Maravelia <a_maravelia@...>
          >To: "ane-2@yahoogroups.com" <ane-2@yahoogroups.com>
          >Sent: Wednesday, 12 December 2012, 20:29
          >Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Archaeology of salvation
          >
          >
          >
          >Good Day Mr Grolin:
          >
          >Interesting questions, indeed! The idea of salvation should be initially sought for in the ancient Egyptian
          >funerary beliefs, especially in the last judgement and the weighing of the heart. I am giving the following
          >works that might help:
          >
          >- Book of the Dead, mainly Spells 125 and 30. *** Definitely these ideas date back to the OK and the
          >Pyramid Texts, so it is not just a late NK product!
          >- Zandee, J.: �Death as an Enemy according to Ancient Egyptian Conceptions�, Studies in the History of Reli�gions:
          >Supplements to Numen, 5, Leiden 1960, 25-31.
          >
          >An ancient Egyptian instance that could be characterized as "cosmopolitan" and definitely "non-nationa-
          >listic" is the Great Hymn to the Aten of Pharaoh Amenophis IV./Akhenaten, for which see also:
          >
          >Redford, D.B.: Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient Times, NJ (Princeton University Press) 1992.
          >
          >The ideas of the Orphics (i.e.: those found in the ORPHIC HYMNS, not in the Lithika, & c.) are definitely
          >much older than the era of their gathering by the doxographs of Peisistratos, that is 6th c. BC. This has
          >been proven on the basis of archaeoastronomical evidence. The fact that the Orphic texts were used in
          >a syncretistic manner, especially during the very Late Era is another thing ...
          >
          >Some works on the function and salvation of the person in Middle Eastern religions, you may find in:
          >
          >- Hornung, E.: Die Anf�nge von Monotheismus und Trinit�t in �gypten: Der eine Gott und der drei-
          >eine Gott: Das Gottes�ver�st�ndris bei Christen, Juden und Muslimen (Rahner, K., ed.), M�nchen (Schnell
          >& Steiner) 1983, 48-66.
          >- Rupp, A.: Vergehen und Bleiben: Religionsgeschichtliche Studien zum Personenverst�ndnis in �gypten und im Al�ten
          >Testa�ment, Saarbr�cken 1976.
          >
          >Finally, provided that you can read Hellenic there is a big and rich number of works on the Christian (and
          >Paulian) consideration of salvation in the works of the Orthodox Fathers of Chriatianity, which you can find in
          >the Patrologia Graeca. The basic doctrine is the salvation through the crucifying-death and Resurrection of the
          >Christ, a fact that makes us as Orthodox Christians to celebrate the crucifixion in a "resurrectional" way,
          >while e.g.: the Roman Catholics celebrate even Easter in a rather "crucifixional" way. Please do not consider
          >these remarks as hints against non-Orthodox Christians, I am a very open-mided person ...
          >
          >Last but not least, I would highly recomend the book of the current Pontiff on Christ:
          >
          >Jesus von Nazareth - 1. Teil: Von der Taufe im Jordan bis zur Verkl�rung, Milano (RCS Libri S.p.A.) 2007,
          >
          >where Pope Benedikt XVI. makes many comparisons between Christianism and Judaism, through the eyes
          >of a Jewish Priest. I hope this helps.
          >
          >Best regards,
          >
          >Dr. Dr. Amanda-Alice Maravelia
          >
          >Hellenic Institute of Egyptology
          >http://hiegaker.wordpress.com
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >To: ane-2@yahoogroups.com
          >From: dgrolin@...
          >Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 06:49:18 -0800
          >Subject: [ANE-2] Archaeology of salvation
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >Dear everyone,
          >
          >I am trying to uncover the various turns
          >(in Foucaultian terms) in the idea of salvation. As I read the Hebrew Bible, it
          >seems that salvation is closely tied to the idea of a national covenant, and
          >that salvation with the territorial integrity of the Hebrew people. I have the
          >studied the development of individualism in the wake of the collapse of
          >Feudalism in Europe and the proliferation of class. However, it seems to me
          >that there were significant turns before that. Surely the cosmopolitanism that
          >Hellenism brought dislodged the individual�s relationship with religious
          >affiliations from the geographic origin, but did this reorient ideas about one�s
          >ultimate end to a blessed or damned afterlife? If so I don�t see why. Were some
          >mystery religions such as the Orphic mysteries attractive because of the
          >promise of personal salvation, or is that an anachronistic reading? What is
          >Josephus doing when he is exploring the sect of Judaism that he wants to
          >follow? How would someone in the ANE interpret Jesus healing a person, as the
          >salvation of an individual or a member of the whole? What about Paul�s concept
          >of salvation? I suspect that these answers are relevant, but I am unsure. Are
          >there any good studies on this?
          >
          >Any help is appreciated.
          >
          >Warm regards,
          >
          >Daniel Grolin
          >�rhus (no institutional affiliation)
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >------------------------------------
          >
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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