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Re: [ANE-2] Archaeology of salvation

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  • Daniel Grolin
    Dear Thomas,   I should clarify. I am not trying to develop a history of ideas, in the sense of looking at luminaries or people of prominence who articulated
    Message 1 of 7 , Dec 12, 2012
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      Dear Thomas,
       
      I should clarify. I am not trying to
      develop a history of ideas, in the sense of looking at luminaries or people of prominence
      who articulated specific views. I am trying to locate shifts in shared
      assumptions that made it possible for people to discuss “salvation”, to agree
      or disagree about conclusions. For example, various schools of thoughts might
      disagree about whether man has “free will”, but before they can discuss whether
      man is so endowed there has to be some shared assumption, something that makes
      it possible to speak about “free will” at all. Perhaps, a new sort of social
      freedom that makes it possible to formulate an ontological/cosmological
      freedom. This is what I am looking for and that is why it is not sufficient merely
      to find different opinions, be it in school of thought or a cultural setting. I
      am not looking for who first came up with personal salvation, I am trying to
      find out why someone came up with personal salvation. I am looking for that
      because once I can see the various turns I will (hopefully) be able to
      understand where each text belongs and how it says what it says in its
      particular discourse.
       
      Jeffrey. I have looked at a few dictionary
      entries, but unfortunately they don’t really correlate in a manner helpful to a
      post-structuralist endeavor. I will try to look through some of your
      references, but I am really hoping that someone will be able to identify a
      study or studies that do precisely what I am looking for.
       
      Warm regards,
       
      Daniel Grolin
      Århus (no institutional affiliation)




      >________________________________
      > From: Jgibson <jgibson000@...>
      >To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      >Sent: Wednesday, 12 December 2012, 16:27
      >Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Archaeology of salvation
      >
      >

      >On 12/12/2012 8:49 AM, Daniel Grolin wrote:
      >> Dear everyone,
      >>
      >> I am trying to uncover the various turns
      >> (in Foucaultian terms) in the idea of salvation. As I read the Hebrew Bible, it
      >> seems that salvation is closely tied to the idea of a national covenant, and
      >> that salvation with the territorial integrity of the Hebrew people. I have the
      >> studied the development of individualism in the wake of the collapse of
      >> Feudalism in Europe and the proliferation of class. However, it seems to me
      >> that there were significant turns before that. Surely the cosmopolitanism that
      >> Hellenism brought dislodged the individual’s relationship with religious
      >> affiliations from the geographic origin, but did this reorient ideas about one’s
      >> ultimate end to a blessed or damned afterlife? If so I don’t see why. Were some
      >> mystery religions such as the Orphic mysteries attractive because of the
      >> promise of personal salvation, or is that an anachronistic reading? What is
      >> Josephus doing when he is exploring the sect of Judaism that he wants to
      >> follow? How would someone in the ANE interpret Jesus healing a person, as the
      >> salvation of an individual or a member of the whole? What about Paul’s concept
      >> of salvation? I suspect that these answers are relevant, but I am unsure. Are
      >> there any good studies on this?
      >>
      >> Any help is appreciated.
      >>
      >> Warm regards,
      >>
      >> Daniel Grolin
      >> Århus (no institutional affiliation)
      >
      >Have you looked at the entry for SWTERIA in the TDNT? The Hebrew
      >equivalents ? , , in TDOT? The entries on Salvation in /The Jewish
      >Encyclopedia/ and /Encyclopedia Judaica/? The entry in Eliade's
      >/Encyclopedia of Religion/? What about the entry in the Anchor Bible
      >Dictionary.
      >
      >Try, too, /Images of Salvation in the New Testament / by Brenda B.
      >Colijn
      >(http://www.amazon.com/Images-Salvation-Testament-Brenda-Colijn/dp/0830838724)
      >and _Salvation in the New Testament: Perspectives on Soteriology_
      >(Supplements to Novum Testamentum) Jan van der Watt, ed.
      >(http://www.amazon.com/Salvation-New-Testament-Perspectives-Soteriology/dp/1589833848)
      >
      >Jeffrey
      >
      >--
      >---
      >Jeffrey B. Gibson D.Phil. Oxon.
      >1500 W. Pratt Blvd
      >Chicago, IL
      >jgibson000@...
      >
      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Amanda-Alice Maravelia
      Good Day Mr Grolin: Interesting questions, indeed! The idea of salvation should be initially sought for in the ancient Egyptian funerary beliefs, especially in
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 12, 2012
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        Good Day Mr Grolin:

        Interesting questions, indeed! The idea of salvation should be initially sought for in the ancient Egyptian
        funerary beliefs, especially in the last judgement and the weighing of the heart. I am giving the following
        works that might help:

        - Book of the Dead, mainly Spells 125 and 30. *** Definitely these ideas date back to the OK and the
        Pyramid Texts, so it is not just a late NK product!
        - Zandee, J.: �Death as an Enemy according to Ancient Egyptian Conceptions�, Studies in the History of Reli�gions:
        Supplements to Numen, 5, Leiden 1960, 25-31.

        An ancient Egyptian instance that could be characterized as "cosmopolitan" and definitely "non-nationa-
        listic" is the Great Hymn to the Aten of Pharaoh Amenophis IV./Akhenaten, for which see also:

        Redford, D.B.: Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient Times, NJ (Princeton University Press) 1992.

        The ideas of the Orphics (i.e.: those found in the ORPHIC HYMNS, not in the Lithika, & c.) are definitely
        much older than the era of their gathering by the doxographs of Peisistratos, that is 6th c. BC. This has
        been proven on the basis of archaeoastronomical evidence. The fact that the Orphic texts were used in
        a syncretistic manner, especially during the very Late Era is another thing ...

        Some works on the function and salvation of the person in Middle Eastern religions, you may find in:

        - Hornung, E.: Die Anf�nge von Monotheismus und Trinit�t in �gypten: Der eine Gott und der drei-
        eine Gott: Das Gottes�ver�st�ndris bei Christen, Juden und Muslimen (Rahner, K., ed.), M�nchen (Schnell
        & Steiner) 1983, 48-66.
        - Rupp, A.: Vergehen und Bleiben: Religionsgeschichtliche Studien zum Personenverst�ndnis in �gypten und im Al�ten
        Testa�ment, Saarbr�cken 1976.

        Finally, provided that you can read Hellenic there is a big and rich number of works on the Christian (and
        Paulian) consideration of salvation in the works of the Orthodox Fathers of Chriatianity, which you can find in
        the Patrologia Graeca. The basic doctrine is the salvation through the crucifying-death and Resurrection of the
        Christ, a fact that makes us as Orthodox Christians to celebrate the crucifixion in a "resurrectional" way,
        while e.g.: the Roman Catholics celebrate even Easter in a rather "crucifixional" way. Please do not consider
        these remarks as hints against non-Orthodox Christians, I am a very open-mided person ...

        Last but not least, I would highly recomend the book of the current Pontiff on Christ:

        Jesus von Nazareth - 1. Teil: Von der Taufe im Jordan bis zur Verkl�rung, Milano (RCS Libri S.p.A.) 2007,

        where Pope Benedikt XVI. makes many comparisons between Christianism and Judaism, through the eyes
        of a Jewish Priest. I hope this helps.

        Best regards,

        Dr. Dr. Amanda-Alice Maravelia

        Hellenic Institute of Egyptology
        http://hiegaker.wordpress.com





        To: ane-2@yahoogroups.com
        From: dgrolin@...
        Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 06:49:18 -0800
        Subject: [ANE-2] Archaeology of salvation





        Dear everyone,

        I am trying to uncover the various turns
        (in Foucaultian terms) in the idea of salvation. As I read the Hebrew Bible, it
        seems that salvation is closely tied to the idea of a national covenant, and
        that salvation with the territorial integrity of the Hebrew people. I have the
        studied the development of individualism in the wake of the collapse of
        Feudalism in Europe and the proliferation of class. However, it seems to me
        that there were significant turns before that. Surely the cosmopolitanism that
        Hellenism brought dislodged the individual�s relationship with religious
        affiliations from the geographic origin, but did this reorient ideas about one�s
        ultimate end to a blessed or damned afterlife? If so I don�t see why. Were some
        mystery religions such as the Orphic mysteries attractive because of the
        promise of personal salvation, or is that an anachronistic reading? What is
        Josephus doing when he is exploring the sect of Judaism that he wants to
        follow? How would someone in the ANE interpret Jesus healing a person, as the
        salvation of an individual or a member of the whole? What about Paul�s concept
        of salvation? I suspect that these answers are relevant, but I am unsure. Are
        there any good studies on this?

        Any help is appreciated.

        Warm regards,

        Daniel Grolin
        �rhus (no institutional affiliation)

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Daniel Grolin
        Dear Amanda-Alice, Thank you for sharing these thoughts and references. One thing in particular struck me was the survey Jan Zandee in “Death as an Enemy:
        Message 3 of 7 , Dec 13, 2012
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          Dear Amanda-Alice,

          Thank you for sharing these thoughts and references. One thing in particular struck me was the survey Jan Zandee in “Death as an Enemy: According to Ancient Egyptian Conceptions”. There were some remarkable advances happening in Egypt, in part in the field of surgery. Typically such advances happen by exploring the corpses of the dead. The image of weighing a man’s heart to determine what kind of life he led has an oddly medical echo to it. I wonder if medical advances and the exploration of the dead body lead to recast what happened to the dead. This could be part of the turns I am looking for in my archeology of salvation. Thanks.

          Regards,

          Daniel Grolin
          Århus, DK







          >________________________________
          > From: Amanda-Alice Maravelia <a_maravelia@...>
          >To: "ane-2@yahoogroups.com" <ane-2@yahoogroups.com>
          >Sent: Wednesday, 12 December 2012, 20:29
          >Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Archaeology of salvation
          >
          >
          >
          >Good Day Mr Grolin:
          >
          >Interesting questions, indeed! The idea of salvation should be initially sought for in the ancient Egyptian
          >funerary beliefs, especially in the last judgement and the weighing of the heart. I am giving the following
          >works that might help:
          >
          >- Book of the Dead, mainly Spells 125 and 30. ***  Definitely these ideas date back to the OK and the
          >Pyramid Texts, so it is not just a late NK product!
          >- Zandee, J.: «Death as an Enemy according to Ancient Egyptian Conceptions», Studies in the History of Reli­gions:
          >Supplements to Numen, 5, Leiden 1960, 25-31.
          >
          >An ancient Egyptian instance that could be characterized as "cosmopolitan" and definitely "non-nationa-
          >listic" is the Great Hymn to the Aten of Pharaoh Amenophis IV./Akhenaten, for which see also:
          >
          >Redford, D.B.: Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient Times, NJ (Princeton University Press) 1992.
          >
          >The ideas of the Orphics (i.e.: those found in the ORPHIC HYMNS, not in the Lithika, & c.) are definitely
          >much older than the era of their gathering by the doxographs of Peisistratos, that is 6th c. BC. This has
          >been proven on the basis of archaeoastronomical evidence. The fact that the Orphic texts were used in
          >a syncretistic manner, especially during the very Late Era is another thing ...
          >
          >Some works on the function and salvation of the person in Middle Eastern religions, you may find in:
          >
          >- Hornung, E.: Die Anfänge von Monotheismus und Trinität in Ägypten: Der eine Gott und der drei-
          >eine Gott: Das Gottes­ver­ständris bei Christen, Juden und Muslimen (Rahner, K., ed.), München (Schnell
          >& Steiner) 1983, 48-66.
          >- Rupp, A.: Vergehen und Bleiben: Religionsgeschichtliche Studien zum Personenverständnis in Ägypten und im Al­ten
          >Testa­ment, Saarbrücken 1976.
          >
          >Finally, provided that you can read Hellenic there is a big and rich number of works on the Christian (and
          >Paulian) consideration of salvation in the works of the Orthodox Fathers of Chriatianity, which you can find in
          >the Patrologia Graeca. The basic doctrine is the salvation through the crucifying-death and Resurrection of the
          >Christ, a fact that makes us as Orthodox Christians to celebrate the crucifixion in a "resurrectional" way,
          >while e.g.: the Roman Catholics celebrate even Easter in a rather "crucifixional" way. Please do not consider
          >these remarks as hints against non-Orthodox Christians, I am a very open-mided person ...
          >
          >Last but not least, I would highly recomend the book of the current Pontiff on Christ:
          >
          >Jesus von Nazareth - 1. Teil: Von der Taufe im Jordan bis zur Verklärung, Milano (RCS Libri S.p.A.) 2007,
          >
          >where Pope Benedikt XVI. makes many comparisons between Christianism and Judaism, through the eyes
          >of a Jewish Priest. I hope this helps.
          >
          >Best regards,
          >
          >Dr. Dr. Amanda-Alice Maravelia
          >
          >Hellenic Institute of Egyptology
          >http://hiegaker.wordpress.com 
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >To: ane-2@yahoogroups.com
          >From: dgrolin@...
          >Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 06:49:18 -0800
          >Subject: [ANE-2] Archaeology of salvation
          >

          >
          >
          >
          >Dear everyone,
          >
          >I am trying to uncover the various turns
          >(in Foucaultian terms) in the idea of salvation. As I read the Hebrew Bible, it
          >seems that salvation is closely tied to the idea of a national covenant, and
          >that salvation with the territorial integrity of the Hebrew people. I have the
          >studied the development of individualism in the wake of the collapse of
          >Feudalism in Europe and the proliferation of class. However, it seems to me
          >that there were significant turns before that. Surely the cosmopolitanism that
          >Hellenism brought dislodged the individual’s relationship with religious
          >affiliations from the geographic origin, but did this reorient ideas about one’s
          >ultimate end to a blessed or damned afterlife? If so I don’t see why. Were some
          >mystery religions such as the Orphic mysteries attractive because of the
          >promise of personal salvation, or is that an anachronistic reading? What is
          >Josephus doing when he is exploring the sect of Judaism that he wants to
          >follow? How would someone in the ANE interpret Jesus healing a person, as the
          >salvation of an individual or a member of the whole? What about Paul’s concept
          >of salvation? I suspect that these answers are relevant, but I am unsure. Are
          >there any good studies on this?
          >
          >Any help is appreciated.
          >
          >Warm regards,
          >
          >Daniel Grolin
          >Århus (no institutional affiliation)
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >                       
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          >------------------------------------
          >
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Amanda-Alice Maravelia
          Dear Daniel: You are welcome. I would like you to look also at the following book, that conatins an other plausible explanation of the origin of the sign of
          Message 4 of 7 , Dec 15, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Daniel:

            You are welcome. I would like you to look also at the following book, that conatins an other plausible
            explanation of the origin of the sign of life (anx) in ancient Egypt, through a forensic and anthropological
            approach:

            Gordon, A.H. & Schwabe, C.W.: The Quick and the Dead: Biomedical Theory in Ancient Egypt, Leiden (Brill�Styx) 2004.

            Best wishes,

            A.-A.M.






            To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            From: dgrolin@...
            Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2012 08:30:28 -0800
            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Archaeology of salvation





            Dear Amanda-Alice,

            Thank you for sharing these thoughts and references. One thing in particular struck me was the survey Jan Zandee in �Death as an Enemy: According to Ancient Egyptian Conceptions�. There were some remarkable advances happening in Egypt, in part in the field of surgery. Typically such advances happen by exploring the corpses of the dead. The image of weighing a man�s heart to determine what kind of life he led has an oddly medical echo to it. I wonder if medical advances and the exploration of the dead body lead to recast what happened to the dead. This could be part of the turns I am looking for in my archeology of salvation. Thanks.

            Regards,

            Daniel Grolin
            �rhus, DK

            >________________________________
            > From: Amanda-Alice Maravelia <a_maravelia@...>
            >To: "ane-2@yahoogroups.com" <ane-2@yahoogroups.com>
            >Sent: Wednesday, 12 December 2012, 20:29
            >Subject: RE: [ANE-2] Archaeology of salvation
            >
            >
            >
            >Good Day Mr Grolin:
            >
            >Interesting questions, indeed! The idea of salvation should be initially sought for in the ancient Egyptian
            >funerary beliefs, especially in the last judgement and the weighing of the heart. I am giving the following
            >works that might help:
            >
            >- Book of the Dead, mainly Spells 125 and 30. *** Definitely these ideas date back to the OK and the
            >Pyramid Texts, so it is not just a late NK product!
            >- Zandee, J.: �Death as an Enemy according to Ancient Egyptian Conceptions�, Studies in the History of Reli�gions:
            >Supplements to Numen, 5, Leiden 1960, 25-31.
            >
            >An ancient Egyptian instance that could be characterized as "cosmopolitan" and definitely "non-nationa-
            >listic" is the Great Hymn to the Aten of Pharaoh Amenophis IV./Akhenaten, for which see also:
            >
            >Redford, D.B.: Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient Times, NJ (Princeton University Press) 1992.
            >
            >The ideas of the Orphics (i.e.: those found in the ORPHIC HYMNS, not in the Lithika, & c.) are definitely
            >much older than the era of their gathering by the doxographs of Peisistratos, that is 6th c. BC. This has
            >been proven on the basis of archaeoastronomical evidence. The fact that the Orphic texts were used in
            >a syncretistic manner, especially during the very Late Era is another thing ...
            >
            >Some works on the function and salvation of the person in Middle Eastern religions, you may find in:
            >
            >- Hornung, E.: Die Anf�nge von Monotheismus und Trinit�t in �gypten: Der eine Gott und der drei-
            >eine Gott: Das Gottes�ver�st�ndris bei Christen, Juden und Muslimen (Rahner, K., ed.), M�nchen (Schnell
            >& Steiner) 1983, 48-66.
            >- Rupp, A.: Vergehen und Bleiben: Religionsgeschichtliche Studien zum Personenverst�ndnis in �gypten und im Al�ten
            >Testa�ment, Saarbr�cken 1976.
            >
            >Finally, provided that you can read Hellenic there is a big and rich number of works on the Christian (and
            >Paulian) consideration of salvation in the works of the Orthodox Fathers of Chriatianity, which you can find in
            >the Patrologia Graeca. The basic doctrine is the salvation through the crucifying-death and Resurrection of the
            >Christ, a fact that makes us as Orthodox Christians to celebrate the crucifixion in a "resurrectional" way,
            >while e.g.: the Roman Catholics celebrate even Easter in a rather "crucifixional" way. Please do not consider
            >these remarks as hints against non-Orthodox Christians, I am a very open-mided person ...
            >
            >Last but not least, I would highly recomend the book of the current Pontiff on Christ:
            >
            >Jesus von Nazareth - 1. Teil: Von der Taufe im Jordan bis zur Verkl�rung, Milano (RCS Libri S.p.A.) 2007,
            >
            >where Pope Benedikt XVI. makes many comparisons between Christianism and Judaism, through the eyes
            >of a Jewish Priest. I hope this helps.
            >
            >Best regards,
            >
            >Dr. Dr. Amanda-Alice Maravelia
            >
            >Hellenic Institute of Egyptology
            >http://hiegaker.wordpress.com
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >To: ane-2@yahoogroups.com
            >From: dgrolin@...
            >Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2012 06:49:18 -0800
            >Subject: [ANE-2] Archaeology of salvation
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >Dear everyone,
            >
            >I am trying to uncover the various turns
            >(in Foucaultian terms) in the idea of salvation. As I read the Hebrew Bible, it
            >seems that salvation is closely tied to the idea of a national covenant, and
            >that salvation with the territorial integrity of the Hebrew people. I have the
            >studied the development of individualism in the wake of the collapse of
            >Feudalism in Europe and the proliferation of class. However, it seems to me
            >that there were significant turns before that. Surely the cosmopolitanism that
            >Hellenism brought dislodged the individual�s relationship with religious
            >affiliations from the geographic origin, but did this reorient ideas about one�s
            >ultimate end to a blessed or damned afterlife? If so I don�t see why. Were some
            >mystery religions such as the Orphic mysteries attractive because of the
            >promise of personal salvation, or is that an anachronistic reading? What is
            >Josephus doing when he is exploring the sect of Judaism that he wants to
            >follow? How would someone in the ANE interpret Jesus healing a person, as the
            >salvation of an individual or a member of the whole? What about Paul�s concept
            >of salvation? I suspect that these answers are relevant, but I am unsure. Are
            >there any good studies on this?
            >
            >Any help is appreciated.
            >
            >Warm regards,
            >
            >Daniel Grolin
            >�rhus (no institutional affiliation)
            >
            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >------------------------------------
            >
            >Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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