Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [ANE-2] On the Historicity of Troy

Expand Messages
  • Graham Hagens
        ....what about the process of textual canonization ....succession of the episodes as well as conventions of storytelling, adherence to one main plot and
    Message 1 of 19 , Oct 24, 2012
      "....what about the process of textual canonization ....succession of the episodes as well as conventions of
      storytelling, adherence to one main plot and shaping of the characters
      as well of the finer points of epic diction and dialect  that begun at a
      time preceding our earliest Iliadic testimonies ? The number of the
      lines may have varied somewhat with a few accretions before the time of
      the Alexandrine editors, but no wholesale books of the Iliad ever crept
      in nor were there ever transpositions of episodes or entire books,
      unlike what happens in the textual tradition of the Mahâbhârata ...... 'crystallization', or 'linguistic arrest',
      cannot be put later than 560 B.C. when the Athenians used Iliad 2.
      257-258 as evidence against the Megarians,....and is likely to be considerably older,
      especially if one puts credance in the demonstrations that the Iliad and
      Odyssy are orally-derived compositions ....As for "using a text whose oldest copy is
      centuries & centuries after the time it purportedly describe", .... own over
      1500 papyri of the poem, the oldest of which approach the third century"

      While this reply is interesting, surely it does no more than reduce Trudy's "centuries & centuries" to just "centuries" 
      A   ~560 BC testimony of   utilization of  text from the Iliad, says nothing about the state of textual canonisation at that time
      Snodgrass (Archaic Greece 1980: 72) wrote of the "great web of unsystematic oral mythology which existed throughout Greek history without being enshrined in verse form," and of the evidence that mythical scenes during the Archaic period  departed from the ‘official version’ of  the epic.   Also (Dark Age Greece  2001: 429, 431), with respect to diffusion of epic and the Homeric poems.  "in Ionia it is certain that an unbroken tradition ran from the time of the Ionian migration down to Homer" and that "before the Homeric poems can have been diffused we should infer that there was first an era of general interest and pride in the heroic age"  
      > One of the (usually) unspoken problems with classical text like the
      > Iliad is the lack of any versions at all near the time it was
      > supposedly composed or written down or edited or… In other words using
      > a text whose oldest copy is centuries & centuries after the time it
      > purportedly describes to date an archaeological site that is even
      > older is very, very difficult, to say the least.
      > In the ANE we can trace a fair amount of how the Gilgamesh stories
      > went from the historical kernel of a king/strongman/local hero of Uruk
      > to an epic of man’s search for immortality to Star Trek. It would be a
      > bit naïve to assume that this natural creative mutability did not
      > apply to the stories focused around the city states during the
      > turbulent times at the turn of the millennium (broadly considered).
      > Trudy S. Kawami

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

       Isn't  this ~half millennium of undocumented activity more to Trudy's point?
      Graham Hagens
      Hamilton, ON
       In response to Trudy Kawami, Jean-Fabrice Nardelli wrote October 22, 2012 6:11 PM:

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
      Graham, you do not understand what the Athenian use of these two Iliadic lines from the Catalogue of the Ships (sorry for the wrong reference ; my only excuse
      Message 2 of 19 , Oct 24, 2012

        you do not understand what the Athenian use of these two Iliadic
        lines from the Catalogue of the Ships (sorry for the wrong reference ;
        my only excuse was the very late hour in Frence) demonstrates as to the
        textual canonization of the poem. Aristotle, Rhetoric, I, 1375 b 28-30
        (p. 69 Kassel [1976]) tells us that "by ancient witnesses I mean the
        poets and all famous figures whose decisions [KRISEIS] are notorious,
        like the Athenians who invoked Homer as witness with respect to Salamis"
        in 560 BC, which is confirmed by Plutarch (Life of Solon, 10) and
        Diogenes Laertius (I, 48), both of whom declare that the Attic
        leader-poet Solon cited Iliad 2. 557 with verse 558 of his own invention
        to bolster the claims of Athens on the great island against the rival
        ones of the Megarians. Though that story has been shown to lack
        credibility, the spuriousness of 558 was unquestioned in later times and
        is nearly universally admitted by modern scholars (contra, R. Hope
        Simpson and J. F. Lazenby, The Catalogue of Ships in Homer's Iliad
        [Oxford, 1970], pp. 59-61, see E. Visser, Homers Katalog der Schiffe
        [Stuttgart & Leipzig, 1997], pp. 449-452, who concludes that "fasst man
        alle Gesichtpunkte zusammen, so spricht doch mehr dafür, in B 558 einen
        Vers zu sehen, der nicht vom Iliasdichter stammt" ; the same Visser
        wrote the commentary on the Catalogue in Latacz's Basler
        Gesamtkommentar, vol. II [Munich & Leipzig, 2003], here at pp. 179-180,
        which replaces the badly defective G. S. Kirk, The Iliad. A Commentary,
        I [Cambridge, 1985], pp. 208-209). The line was omitted by Aristarchus
        in his epoch-making editions, in all probability because he only found
        it in a few of his chosen manuscripts (a point demonstrated beyond
        reasonable doubt by M. J. Apthorp, The Manuscript Evidence for
        Interpolation in Homer [Heidelberg, 1980], pp. 165-177 [text], 188-194
        [notes]), and it re-entered the textual tradition later on an unsecure
        footing (as it is omitted by six papyri and roughly one half of the
        best-known mediaeval manuscripts ; an instructive tale is told by the
        comparison of the apparatuses of G. M. Bolling's Ilias Atheniensium
        [Lancaster, 1950] , p. 39, and West's Teubner eddition, I [1998], p.
        71). The problem is highly complex and cannot be sketched in a few
        sentences - see Apthorp for a complete, if heavy-going, unravelling of
        it -, but, unless the interpolation was well-known by Solon's time, viz.
        textually fixed orally and in some exemplars of the poem, it is
        inconveivable that the Athenians could ever have invoked it and the
        judges of the quarrel with the Megarians accepted it. Homeric scholars
        were thus lead to posit an updating of the geographic-mythical map of
        heroic Greece as preserved by the Catalogue and some interpolations in
        Hesiod with a view to the interests of Athens and other regional powers
        of the middle of the 6th century (M. Finkelberg, 'Ajax's Entry in the
        Hesiodic Catalogue of Women', Classical Quarterly 38, 1988, pp. 31-41 at
        35-38) - if this is not an airtight sign of canonized textualization,
        then what can it be ?

        I can only hope that, tonight, I suceeded in making my point
        J.-F. Nardelli
        Université de Provence
      • Jean-Fabrice Nardelli
        As my last words on the topic, unless the debate bounces back with new arguments going beyond mere generalities, I would like to commend the view that the text
        Message 3 of 19 , Oct 25, 2012
          As my last words on the topic, unless the debate bounces back with new
          arguments going beyond mere generalities, I would like to commend the
          view that the text of the Homeric epics was submitted to a gradual
          process of textualization from the archaic period until the the middle
          of the sixth century, not my own creed, for I am rather convinced that
          we have in all essentials a ca. 750 BC Iliad, not the poem of some
          anonymous sixth century oral singers / arrangers (reasons in S. T.
          Teodorsson, 'Eastern Literacy, Greek Alphabet, and Homer', Mnemosyne
          LIX, 2006, pp. 161-187, and my Motif de la paire d'amis héroïque à
          prolongements homophiles. Perspectives odysséennes et proches-orientales
          [Amsterdam, 2004], pp. 170-180), yet a model that I find impossible to
          confine to silence (an interesting account of that progressive
          textualization can be found in L. E. Rossi, 'Dividing Homer. When and
          How Were the Iliad and the Odyssey Divided into Songs ? (Continued)',
          Symbolae Osloenses 76, 2001, pp. 103-112). Of course, the implications
          of the oral-traditional mechanisms on the textual criticism of the poem
          are far from assessed, witness, e.g., N. Kelly, A Referential Commentary
          and Lexicon to Homer, Iliad VIII (Oxford, 2007), pp. 378-384, who "is
          concerned to find out whether the feature under discussion is the kind
          of thing a traditionally trained poet would have produced" (p. 385),
          beyond the conspicuous fact that "von Anfang an hatten die Rhapsoden
          zweifellos dazu tendiert, den Text euphonischer und geschmeidiger zu
          machen, indem sie logisch überflüssige Partikeln zufügten, um Hiat oder
          andere metrische Anomalien auszuschalten (die häufig als Ergebnis des
          Digamma-Verlusts entstanden waren), und indem sie ungewöhnliche
          archaische Formen durch modernere ersetzten. Das war ohne Zweifel ein
          Grundzug der mündlichen Tradition schon lange bevor die Ilias geschaffen
          wurde" (West, in the Basler Gesamtkommentar, Prolegomena [Munich &
          Leipzig, 2003 ; 3rd ed., Berlin & New York, 2009], p. 31). The genious
          of the poet should not be downgraded or lost sight of in the
          appreciation of this process, if only because Homer may very well have
          brought out crucial modifications to the meter and dialect he inherited
          (N. Berg and D. Haug, 'Dividing Homer (continued). Innovation vs.
          Tradition in Homer - An Overlooked Piece of Evidence', Symbolae
          Osloenses 75, 2000, pp. 5-23, cf. p. 21 : "it is hard to see how a
          metrical change like the introduction of the equivalence between one
          long and two short syllables in thesi can have evolved gradually. For
          reasons shown above, these changes cannot have happened during the
          Aeolic phase and we see no way that they can be connected with an Ionian
          tradition which is but poorly supported by facts and contradicted by
          analyses of the epic diction like that of Hoekstra. That is why we would
          like to ascribe them to the monumental composer himself, or in Latacz’s
          words 1989, 26) : the “Begründer der abendländischen Textualität”) ; now
          the very existence of an Aeolic slice of the Greek dialectal continuum
          has been demolished by H. N. Parker, 'The Linguistic Case for the
          Aiolian Migration Reconsidered', Hesperia 77, 2008, pp. 431-464 at
          443-459, cf. 460 "the idea of an Aiolic dialect group itself falls
          apart. Boiotian is an archaic dialect, most closely related to West
          Greek, which underwent the First Compensatory Lengthening but retained
          *r° (with later independent change of *r° > ρο) and the labiovelars
          (with the default change to labials), and which underwent various later
          minor changes of its own. Lesbian and Thessalian are both archaic
          branches of Greek that did not undergo the First Compensatory
          Lengthening. They share no demonstrable common innovations, and nothing
          argues for a relationship between them. They are best viewed as two
          relic areas of a relatively unaltered early Greek" (I shall only declare
          here that I, like most Homerists with enough philological and linguistic
          expertise, remain unconvinced ; it has been trendy, for the past five
          decades, to minimize, or even rule out, the impact of Aeolic on both
          Homer and the dialectal map of Greece, with disastrous consequences ;
          cf. rather Finkelberg, 'The Dialect Continuum of Ancient Greek', Harvard
          Studies in Classical Philology 96, 1994,, pp. 1-36). Nor should the
          relevant technicalities in Homeric textual poetics and narratology, of
          which list members hardly suspect the level of intricacy and
          sophistication - sometimes oppressive, if not counterproductive : see
          further my Aristarchus Antibarbarus, pp. LXI-LXII note ************ - be
          ignored by all those who invoke Homer or the Iliad around Troy, lest
          what they say be heavily naive ; see C. Tsagalis, 'Towards an Oral,
          Intertextual Neoanalysis', Trends in Classics 3, 2011, pp. 209-244 at
          211-228, paper of which I must remark : es ist auf einem
          Spekulationsgebäude erbaut, ein neues schönes Beispiel dafür, wie
          produktiv unsere Irrtümer und fixen Ideen sein können.

          J.-F. Nardelli
          Université de Provence
          > _,_._,___

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.