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Qumran pottery question

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  • Joseph Weinstein
    Does anyone know if the potter s clay found by Magen & Peleg (Magen & Peleg 2007, JSP 6) in Qumran pools L-71 and L-58 has been examined petrographically
    Message 1 of 5 , Oct 10, 2012
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      Does anyone know if the potter's clay found by Magen & Peleg (Magen &
      Peleg 2007, JSP 6) in Qumran pools L-71 and L-58 has been examined
      petrographically and/or chemically? If so, have the results been
      published and if so, where?

      I am familiar with the petrographic and chemical studies of Gunneweg &
      Balla (2003, Balla 2005) and of Michniewicz & Kryszko (2003, Michniewicz
      2009). These sediments were apparently not yet available to them.

      I am particularly interested in the question as to whether this potter's
      clay actually matched the petrological/chemical signature of pottery
      manufactured at Qumran and/or the petrological/chemical signature of
      clays from the Wadi Qumran.


      --
      Joseph Weinstein
      Lead Scientist
      BBN Technologies
      10 Moulton St.,
      Cambridge, MA 02138
      weinstein@...
    • Stephen Goranson
      Jan Gunneweg eventually did get samples. See: Gunneweg, Jan, and Marta Balla. Was the Qumran Settlement a Mere Pottery Production Center? What Neutron
      Message 2 of 5 , Oct 12, 2012
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        Jan Gunneweg eventually did get samples. See:

        Gunneweg, Jan, and Marta Balla. "Was the Qumran Settlement a Mere Pottery Production Center? What Neutron Activation Revealed." In Holistic Qumran: Trans-Disciplinary Research of Qumran and the Dead Sea Scrolls, ed. Jan Gunneweg, Annemie Adriaens and Joris Dik, 40-62. Studies on the Texts of the Desert of Judah 87. Leiden: Brill, 2010.

        Related:
        Gunneweg, Jan, and Marta Balla. "The Provenance of Qumran Pottery by Instrumental Neutron Activation Analysis." In Bio- and Material Cultures at Qumran: Papers from a COST Action G8 Working Group Meeting Held in Jerusalem, Israel on 22-23 May 2005, ed. Jan Gunneweg, Charles Greenblatt and Annemie Adriaens, 99-108. Stuttgart: Fraunhofer IRB, 2006.

        By the way, since you are in Cambridge: does anyone know who now owns the Qumran "scroll jar" that was once owned by the Zion Research Library (later renamed the Endowment for Biblical Research) and sold (after being on deposit at Boston University; at least the books were) in 1998?

        And where is another missing "scroll jar" (or a parallel, according to de Vaux), last seen in Jordan? See Rev. Bib. 67 (1960) 229 and F.S. Ma'ayeh ADAJ 4-5 p.116 and pl. V.1.

        Stephen Goranson
        www.duke.edu/~goranson
        ________________________________
        From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of Joseph Weinstein [weinstein@...]
        Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 10:51 AM
        To: ANE-2
        Cc: Joseph Weinstein
        Subject: [ANE-2] Qumran pottery question



        Does anyone know if the potter's clay found by Magen & Peleg (Magen &
        Peleg 2007, JSP 6) in Qumran pools L-71 and L-58 has been examined
        petrographically and/or chemically? If so, have the results been
        published and if so, where?

        I am familiar with the petrographic and chemical studies of Gunneweg &
        Balla (2003, Balla 2005) and of Michniewicz & Kryszko (2003, Michniewicz
        2009). These sediments were apparently not yet available to them.

        I am particularly interested in the question as to whether this potter's
        clay actually matched the petrological/chemical signature of pottery
        manufactured at Qumran and/or the petrological/chemical signature of
        clays from the Wadi Qumran.

        --
        Joseph Weinstein
        Lead Scientist
        BBN Technologies
        10 Moulton St.,
        Cambridge, MA 02138
        weinstein@...<mailto:weinstein%40bbn.com>





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Joe Zias
        During that 70 s a synagogue in CA had a a scroll jar which had been taken out of the country illegally Dr. Brian the director saw it and believed  it was a
        Message 3 of 5 , Oct 12, 2012
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          During that 70's a synagogue in CA had a a scroll jar which had been taken out of the country illegally Dr. Brian the director saw it and believed  it was a forgery and had it rtn to Jerusalem .  I opened the crate along with workmen and they laughed and said a poorly made forgery .  While doing some film work last month I saw what looked like the jar once again, in Bethlehem. Anyway, it's been around for over 40 yrs. 


          Joe Zias
           
          Joe Zias www.joezias.com
          Anthropology/Paleopathology

          Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
          Jerusalem, Israel


          ________________________________


          On Oct 12, 2012, at 10:57 AM, Stephen Goranson <goranson@...> wrote:


           
          >Jan Gunneweg eventually did get samples. See:
          >
          >Gunneweg, Jan, and Marta Balla. "Was the Qumran Settlement a Mere Pottery Production Center? What Neutron Activation Revealed." In Holistic Qumran: Trans-Disciplinary Research of Qumran and the Dead Sea Scrolls, ed. Jan Gunneweg, Annemie Adriaens and Joris Dik, 40-62. Studies on the Texts of the Desert of Judah 87. Leiden: Brill, 2010.
          >
          >Related:
          >Gunneweg, Jan, and Marta Balla. "The Provenance of Qumran Pottery by Instrumental Neutron Activation Analysis." In Bio- and Material Cultures at Qumran: Papers from a COST Action G8 Working Group Meeting Held in Jerusalem, Israel on 22-23 May 2005, ed. Jan Gunneweg, Charles Greenblatt and Annemie Adriaens, 99-108. Stuttgart: Fraunhofer IRB, 2006.
          >
          >By the way, since you are in Cambridge: does anyone know who now owns the Qumran "scroll jar" that was once owned by the Zion Research Library (later renamed the Endowment for Biblical Research) and sold (after being on deposit at Boston University; at least the books were) in 1998?
          >
          >And where is another missing "scroll jar" (or a parallel, according to de Vaux), last seen in Jordan? See Rev. Bib. 67 (1960) 229 and F.S. Ma'ayeh ADAJ 4-5 p.116 and pl. V.1.
          >
          >Stephen Goranson
          >www.duke.edu/~goranson
          >________________________________
          >From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of Joseph Weinstein [weinstein@...]
          >Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 10:51 AM
          >To: ANE-2
          >Cc: Joseph Weinstein
          >Subject: [ANE-2] Qumran pottery question
          >
          >Does anyone know if the potter's clay found by Magen & Peleg (Magen &
          >Peleg 2007, JSP 6) in Qumran pools L-71 and L-58 has been examined
          >petrographically and/or chemically? If so, have the results been
          >published and if so, where?
          >
          >I am familiar with the petrographic and chemical studies of Gunneweg &
          >Balla (2003, Balla 2005) and of Michniewicz & Kryszko (2003, Michniewicz
          >2009). These sediments were apparently not yet available to them.
          >
          >I am particularly interested in the question as to whether this potter's
          >clay actually matched the petrological/chemical signature of pottery
          >manufactured at Qumran and/or the petrological/chemical signature of
          >clays from the Wadi Qumran.
          >
          >--
          >Joseph Weinstein
          >Lead Scientist
          >BBN Technologies
          >10 Moulton St.,
          >Cambridge, MA 02138
          >weinstein@...<mailto:weinstein%40bbn.com>
          >
          >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Joe Zias
          Pardon the transposition its Dr. Biran not Brian,. he was and is one of the most respected archaologists of that generation and I had the honor of working 
          Message 4 of 5 , Oct 12, 2012
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            Pardon the transposition its Dr. Biran not Brian,. he was and is one of the most respected archaologists of that generation and I had the honor of working  with him until his retirement. Typing on an I-Pad keyboard or a smart phone, is not for me.
             
            Joe

            Joe Zias www.joezias.com
            Anthropology/Paleopathology

            Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
            Jerusalem, Israel

            From: Joe Zias <joezias@...>
            To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 8:12 PM
            Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Qumran pottery question


             
            During that 70's a synagogue in CA had a a scroll jar which had been taken out of the country illegally Dr. Brian the director saw it and believed  it was a forgery and had it rtn to Jerusalem .  I opened the crate along with workmen and they laughed and said a poorly made forgery .  While doing some film work last month I saw what looked like the jar once again, in Bethlehem. Anyway, it's been around for over 40 yrs. 

            Joe Zias
             
            Joe Zias http://www.joezias.com/
            Anthropology/Paleopathology

            Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
            Jerusalem, Israel

            ________________________________


            On Oct 12, 2012, at 10:57 AM, Stephen Goranson <mailto:goranson%40duke.edu> wrote:

             
            >Jan Gunneweg eventually did get samples. See:
            >
            >Gunneweg, Jan, and Marta Balla. "Was the Qumran Settlement a Mere Pottery Production Center? What Neutron Activation Revealed." In Holistic Qumran: Trans-Disciplinary Research of Qumran and the Dead Sea Scrolls, ed. Jan Gunneweg, Annemie Adriaens and Joris Dik, 40-62. Studies on the Texts of the Desert of Judah 87. Leiden: Brill, 2010.
            >
            >Related:
            >Gunneweg, Jan, and Marta Balla. "The Provenance of Qumran Pottery by Instrumental Neutron Activation Analysis." In Bio- and Material Cultures at Qumran: Papers from a COST Action G8 Working Group Meeting Held in Jerusalem, Israel on 22-23 May 2005, ed. Jan Gunneweg, Charles Greenblatt and Annemie Adriaens, 99-108. Stuttgart: Fraunhofer IRB, 2006.
            >
            >By the way, since you are in Cambridge: does anyone know who now owns the Qumran "scroll jar" that was once owned by the Zion Research Library (later renamed the Endowment for Biblical Research) and sold (after being on deposit at Boston University; at least the books were) in 1998?
            >
            >And where is another missing "scroll jar" (or a parallel, according to de Vaux), last seen in Jordan? See Rev. Bib. 67 (1960) 229 and F.S. Ma'ayeh ADAJ 4-5 p.116 and pl. V.1.
            >
            >Stephen Goranson
            >www.duke.edu/~goranson
            >________________________________
            >From: mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com] on behalf of Joseph Weinstein [mailto:weinstein%40bbn.com]
            >Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 10:51 AM
            >To: ANE-2
            >Cc: Joseph Weinstein
            >Subject: [ANE-2] Qumran pottery question
            >
            >Does anyone know if the potter's clay found by Magen & Peleg (Magen &
            >Peleg 2007, JSP 6) in Qumran pools L-71 and L-58 has been examined
            >petrographically and/or chemically? If so, have the results been
            >published and if so, where?
            >
            >I am familiar with the petrographic and chemical studies of Gunneweg &
            >Balla (2003, Balla 2005) and of Michniewicz & Kryszko (2003, Michniewicz
            >2009). These sediments were apparently not yet available to them.
            >
            >I am particularly interested in the question as to whether this potter's
            >clay actually matched the petrological/chemical signature of pottery
            >manufactured at Qumran and/or the petrological/chemical signature of
            >clays from the Wadi Qumran.
            >
            >--
            >Joseph Weinstein
            >Lead Scientist
            >BBN Technologies
            >10 Moulton St.,
            >Cambridge, MA 02138
            >mailto:weinstein%40bbn.com<mailto:weinstein%40bbn.com>
            >
            >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Stephen Goranson
            The jar (in Massachusetts, at least from 1952 to 1998) that I referred to as a Qumran scroll jar was considered genuine by Carl H. Kraeling in his article.
            Message 5 of 5 , Oct 13, 2012
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              The jar (in Massachusetts, at least from 1952 to 1998) that I referred to as a Qumran "scroll jar" was considered genuine by Carl H. Kraeling in his article. "A Dead Sea Scroll Jar at the Oriental Institute," BASOR 125 (Feb. 1952) pages 5-7 (esp. p.5 n.1) and photograph on page 1. From page 5 note 1: "We understand that a similar jar [similar to the Chicago one] has recently been acquired by the Zion Research Library of Brookline, Mass., through the efforts of Miss Lucetta Mowry...."

              Stephen Goranson
              www.duke.edu/~goranson
              ________________________________
              From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of Joe Zias [joezias@...]
              Sent: Friday, October 12, 2012 2:12 PM
              To: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [ANE-2] Qumran pottery question



              During that 70's a synagogue in CA had a a scroll jar which had been taken out of the country illegally Dr. Brian the director saw it and believed it was a forgery and had it rtn to Jerusalem . I opened the crate along with workmen and they laughed and said a poorly made forgery . While doing some film work last month I saw what looked like the jar once again, in Bethlehem. Anyway, it's been around for over 40 yrs.

              Joe Zias

              Joe Zias www.joezias.com
              Anthropology/Paleopathology

              Science and Antiquity Group - Jerusalem
              Jerusalem, Israel

              ________________________________


              On Oct 12, 2012, at 10:57 AM, Stephen Goranson <goranson@...<mailto:goranson%40duke.edu>> wrote:


              >Jan Gunneweg eventually did get samples. See:
              >
              >Gunneweg, Jan, and Marta Balla. "Was the Qumran Settlement a Mere Pottery Production Center? What Neutron Activation Revealed." In Holistic Qumran: Trans-Disciplinary Research of Qumran and the Dead Sea Scrolls, ed. Jan Gunneweg, Annemie Adriaens and Joris Dik, 40-62. Studies on the Texts of the Desert of Judah 87. Leiden: Brill, 2010.
              >
              >Related:
              >Gunneweg, Jan, and Marta Balla. "The Provenance of Qumran Pottery by Instrumental Neutron Activation Analysis." In Bio- and Material Cultures at Qumran: Papers from a COST Action G8 Working Group Meeting Held in Jerusalem, Israel on 22-23 May 2005, ed. Jan Gunneweg, Charles Greenblatt and Annemie Adriaens, 99-108. Stuttgart: Fraunhofer IRB, 2006.
              >
              >By the way, since you are in Cambridge: does anyone know who now owns the Qumran "scroll jar" that was once owned by the Zion Research Library (later renamed the Endowment for Biblical Research) and sold (after being on deposit at Boston University; at least the books were) in 1998?
              >
              >And where is another missing "scroll jar" (or a parallel, according to de Vaux), last seen in Jordan? See Rev. Bib. 67 (1960) 229 and F.S. Ma'ayeh ADAJ 4-5 p.116 and pl. V.1.
              >
              >Stephen Goranson
              >www.duke.edu/~goranson
              >________________________________
              >From: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com> [ANE-2@yahoogroups.com<mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>] on behalf of Joseph Weinstein [weinstein@...<mailto:weinstein%40bbn.com>]
              >Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2012 10:51 AM
              >To: ANE-2
              >Cc: Joseph Weinstein
              >Subject: [ANE-2] Qumran pottery question
              >
              >Does anyone know if the potter's clay found by Magen & Peleg (Magen &
              >Peleg 2007, JSP 6) in Qumran pools L-71 and L-58 has been examined
              >petrographically and/or chemically? If so, have the results been
              >published and if so, where?[....]



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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