Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

SV: [ANE-2] Re: Pigs (was Recognizing Iron Age Israelite Settlements)

Expand Messages
  • Niels Peter Lemche
    Well, this is not absolutely true. I guess that also you when you go to the supermarket in Helsinki can buy smoked ham from I do not know how many places. As
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 17, 2012
      Well, this is not absolutely true. I guess that also you when you go to the supermarket in Helsinki can buy smoked ham from I do not know how many places. As to deceases, one of the major plages is Salmonella, but this decease is also common among chickens, and I see no prohibition against chicken. Somehow I find Itamar's reference to nomads not having pigs more interesting. In the Old Testament we have this nomadic ideal here and there, most notably in Jeremiah 35 (the Rekabites). Civilization is bad, the invention of Cain's descendants, the guy who killed his brother. Taking advantage of such an ideal, there is not far also to concentrate on the diet of nomads around you. The ideal is also clear in the diet of the infant Messiah in Isa 7: He shall live from laban and honey (the raw as against the cooked).

      Furthermore, as I mentioned earlier, pigs are kept and eaten in all of South Europe where the climate is not very different from the one ruling in the Levant.

      Then one question more: what do we know about Egyptians attitude to pigs? I cannot remember seeing them in any wall painting showing life at the countryside.


      Niels Peter Lemche




      -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
      Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Robert M Whiting
      Sendt: den 18 juli 2012 01:51
      Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
      Emne: Re: [ANE-2] Re: Pigs (was Recognizing Iron Age Israelite Settlements)

      There is an interesting article on food taboos at

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2711054/

      It may contain more than you want to know, but it does have some bearing on the discussion.

      A prohibition against pigs may have many reasons, but certainly one of the major ones is that pigs harbor a number of diseases that can be transmitted to humans. Pig meat is only safe if it has been thoroughly cooked, whereas other meat can safely be eaten either partly cooked or raw (lamb, for instance, has no parasites harmful to humans and can safely be eaten raw as it is regularly in the Middle East).

      Bob Whiting
      whiting@...

      On Tue, 17 Jul 2012, George F Somsel wrote:

      > While what you and others have noted, one does not establish a
      > prohibition based on practical concerns. One does not prohibit the
      > planting of a cool weather crop during the heat of summer. It is a
      > matter of practical consideration. Similarly, why would one prohibit
      > the eating of certain animals based on practical considerations?it
      > would be a matter of knowledge common to all who have an acquaintance
      > with the subject. We still need to find why certain practices were prohibited.
      > Perhaps we will never discover the reason. We may not even be able to
      > discover when the prohibition first arose.
      >
      >
      > george
      > gfsomsel
      >
      > search for truth, hear truth,
      > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the
      > truth till death.
      >
      > - Jan Hus
      > _________
      > ?
      >
      >
      > >________________________________
      > > From: Trudy Kawami <tkawami@...>
      > >To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
      > >Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 8:17 AM
      > >Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Pigs (was Recognizing Iron Age Israelite
      > >Settlements)
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >Another factor in keeping any domesticated animal is the ease with which you can manage it. Large bovids are harder to manage in some environments than sheep/goats are. Water, forage, space, temperament & potential predators are all part of the husbandry package. These practical aspects can also reinforce, or undercut, the cultural significance that domesticates may carry. In others words there can be many reasons why one keeps pigs or doesn?t.
      > >
      > >Trudy S. Kawami
      > >
      > >__
      > >
      > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >


      ------------------------------------

      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • Niels Peter Lemche
      Found a site about pigs in ancient Egypt: http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/pigs.htm Written by Marie Parson. Seems well-informed, and they had pigs, and
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 17, 2012
        Found a site about pigs in ancient Egypt:

        http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/pigs.htm

        Written by Marie Parson.

        Seems well-informed, and they had pigs, and no problems with deceases caused by eating pigs, although the climate is even more uninviting in Egypt.

        Niels Peter Lemche



        -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
        Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Robert M Whiting
        Sendt: den 18 juli 2012 01:51
        Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
        Emne: Re: [ANE-2] Re: Pigs (was Recognizing Iron Age Israelite Settlements)

        There is an interesting article on food taboos at

        http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2711054/

        It may contain more than you want to know, but it does have some bearing on the discussion.

        A prohibition against pigs may have many reasons, but certainly one of the major ones is that pigs harbor a number of diseases that can be transmitted to humans. Pig meat is only safe if it has been thoroughly cooked, whereas other meat can safely be eaten either partly cooked or raw (lamb, for instance, has no parasites harmful to humans and can safely be eaten raw as it is regularly in the Middle East).

        Bob Whiting
        whiting@...

        On Tue, 17 Jul 2012, George F Somsel wrote:

        > While what you and others have noted, one does not establish a
        > prohibition based on practical concerns. One does not prohibit the
        > planting of a cool weather crop during the heat of summer. It is a
        > matter of practical consideration. Similarly, why would one prohibit
        > the eating of certain animals based on practical considerations?it
        > would be a matter of knowledge common to all who have an acquaintance
        > with the subject. We still need to find why certain practices were prohibited.
        > Perhaps we will never discover the reason. We may not even be able to
        > discover when the prohibition first arose.
        >
        >
        > george
        > gfsomsel
        >
        > search for truth, hear truth,
        > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the
        > truth till death.
        >
        > - Jan Hus
        > _________
        > ?
        >
        >
        > >________________________________
        > > From: Trudy Kawami <tkawami@...>
        > >To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
        > >Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 8:17 AM
        > >Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Pigs (was Recognizing Iron Age Israelite
        > >Settlements)
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >Another factor in keeping any domesticated animal is the ease with which you can manage it. Large bovids are harder to manage in some environments than sheep/goats are. Water, forage, space, temperament & potential predators are all part of the husbandry package. These practical aspects can also reinforce, or undercut, the cultural significance that domesticates may carry. In others words there can be many reasons why one keeps pigs or doesn?t.
        > >
        > >Trudy S. Kawami
        > >
        > >__
        > >
        > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >


        ------------------------------------

        Yahoo! Groups Links
      • Niels Peter Lemche
        Sorry for the howler: as I was told, not deceases but diseases ... Niels Peter Lemche ... Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 17, 2012
          Sorry for the howler: as I was told, not deceases but diseases ...

          Niels Peter Lemche

          -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
          Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Niels Peter Lemche
          Sendt: den 18 juli 2012 07:09
          Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
          Emne: SV: [ANE-2] Re: Pigs (was Recognizing Iron Age Israelite Settlements)

          Well, this is not absolutely true. I guess that also you when you go to the supermarket in Helsinki can buy smoked ham from I do not know how many places. As to deceases, one of the major plages is Salmonella, but this decease is also common among chickens, and I see no prohibition against chicken. Somehow I find Itamar's reference to nomads not having pigs more interesting. In the Old Testament we have this nomadic ideal here and there, most notably in Jeremiah 35 (the Rekabites). Civilization is bad, the invention of Cain's descendants, the guy who killed his brother. Taking advantage of such an ideal, there is not far also to concentrate on the diet of nomads around you. The ideal is also clear in the diet of the infant Messiah in Isa 7: He shall live from laban and honey (the raw as against the cooked).

          Furthermore, as I mentioned earlier, pigs are kept and eaten in all of South Europe where the climate is not very different from the one ruling in the Levant.

          Then one question more: what do we know about Egyptians attitude to pigs? I cannot remember seeing them in any wall painting showing life at the countryside.


          Niels Peter Lemche
        • eliot braun
          Trichinosis was a real problem. Nasty little worms that find their way into the human body if the pork is from a diseased animal and has not be thoroughly
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 18, 2012
            Trichinosis was a real problem. Nasty little worms that find their way into the human body if the pork is from a diseased animal and has not be thoroughly cooked.


            As Greenberg noted, the pig needs very special care that does not fit into any type of nomadism. I'm not sure that we'll ever understand the underlying reasons for it, but possibly it might be in the tension between nomads and sedentarists that existed. Nomads were more on the fringe and the fringe was dry and not fitted for swine husbandry.


            Interestingly, the EB site of Qiryat Ata has relatively significant quantites of pig bones in its early phases, some of which are probably Neolithic. I suggest that provender for them might have been the oak forests rich in acorns, that once dotted the area. In EB II the percentage goes down, possibly because of deforestation. Environment seems to be an important factor. Pigs in the Negev are not likely.

             
            Eliot Braun, Ph D
            Sr. Fellow WF Albright Institute of Archaeological Research, Jerusalem
            Associate Researcher Centre de Recherche Français de Jérusalem
            PO Box 21, Har Adar 90836 Israel
            Tel 972-2-5345687, Cell 972-50-2231096


            ________________________________
            From: Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...>
            To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 8:17 AM
            Subject: SV: [ANE-2] Re: Pigs (was Recognizing Iron Age Israelite Settlements)


             
            Found a site about pigs in ancient Egypt:

            http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/pigs.htm

            Written by Marie Parson.

            Seems well-informed, and they had pigs, and no problems with deceases caused by eating pigs, although the climate is even more uninviting in Egypt.

            Niels Peter Lemche



            -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
            Fra: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ANE-2@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Robert M Whiting
            Sendt: den 18 juli 2012 01:51
            Til: ANE-2@yahoogroups.com
            Emne: Re: [ANE-2] Re: Pigs (was Recognizing Iron Age Israelite Settlements)

            There is an interesting article on food taboos at

            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2711054/

            It may contain more than you want to know, but it does have some bearing on the discussion.

            A prohibition against pigs may have many reasons, but certainly one of the major ones is that pigs harbor a number of diseases that can be transmitted to humans. Pig meat is only safe if it has been thoroughly cooked, whereas other meat can safely be eaten either partly cooked or raw (lamb, for instance, has no parasites harmful to humans and can safely be eaten raw as it is regularly in the Middle East).

            Bob Whiting
            whiting@...

            On Tue, 17 Jul 2012, George F Somsel wrote:

            > While what you and others have noted, one does not establish a
            > prohibition based on practical concerns. One does not prohibit the
            > planting of a cool weather crop during the heat of summer. It is a
            > matter of practical consideration. Similarly, why would one prohibit
            > the eating of certain animals based on practical considerations?it
            > would be a matter of knowledge common to all who have an acquaintance
            > with the subject. We still need to find why certain practices were prohibited.
            > Perhaps we will never discover the reason. We may not even be able to
            > discover when the prohibition first arose.
            >
            >
            > george
            > gfsomsel
            >
            > search for truth, hear truth,
            > learn truth, love truth, speak the truth, hold the truth, defend the
            > truth till death.
            >
            > - Jan Hus
            > _________
            > ?
            >
            >
            > >________________________________
            > > From: Trudy Kawami <tkawami@...>
            > >To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
            > >Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2012 8:17 AM
            > >Subject: [ANE-2] Re: Pigs (was Recognizing Iron Age Israelite
            > >Settlements)
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >Another factor in keeping any domesticated animal is the ease with which you can manage it. Large bovids are harder to manage in some environments than sheep/goats are. Water, forage, space, temperament & potential predators are all part of the husbandry package. These practical aspects can also reinforce, or undercut, the cultural significance that domesticates may carry. In others words there can be many reasons why one keeps pigs or doesn?t.
            > >
            > >Trudy S. Kawami
            > >
            > >__
            > >
            > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >


            ------------------------------------

            Yahoo! Groups Links






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Peter T. Daniels
            Disease often leads to decease. You just cut out the middle man. -- Peter T. Daniels grammatim@verizon.net Jersey City From: Niels Peter Lemche
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 18, 2012
              Disease often leads to decease. You just cut out the middle man.


              --
              Peter T. Daniels grammatim@...
              Jersey City

              From: Niels Peter Lemche <npl@...>
              >To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
              >Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 2:30 AM
              >Subject: SV: [ANE-2] Re: Pigs (was Recognizing Iron Age Israelite Settlements)
              >
              >

              >Sorry for the howler: as I was told, not deceases but diseases ...
              >
              >Niels Peter Lemche

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • David Hall
              Pottery was invented in China about 20,000 years ago.    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-18602281   Early use of cooking pots indicates the
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 18, 2012
                Pottery was invented in China about 20,000 years ago. 
                 
                http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-18602281
                 
                Early use of cooking pots indicates the ancients liked to cook their food. Today the incidence of trichinosis in the developed world is near zero due to veterinary medicine.  The cooking of food and pasteurization of milk were great advances for mankind. There are milk borne bacteria the "Law of Moses" was unable to predict or prevent.  The light of science is much brighter today than 3000 years ago.  
                 
                David Q. Hall
                dqhall59.com
                dqhall.com    


                ________________________________
                From: Peter T. Daniels <grammatim@...>
                To: "ANE-2@yahoogroups.com" <ANE-2@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 11:12 AM
                Subject: Re: SV: [ANE-2] Re: Pigs (was Recognizing Iron Age Israelite Settlements)


                 

                Disease often leads to decease. You just cut out the middle man.

                --
                Peter T. Daniels mailto:grammatim%40verizon.net
                Jersey City

                From: Niels Peter Lemche <mailto:npl%40teol.ku.dk>
                >To: "mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com" <mailto:ANE-2%40yahoogroups.com>
                >Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2012 2:30 AM
                >Subject: SV: [ANE-2] Re: Pigs (was Recognizing Iron Age Israelite Settlements)
                >
                >

                >Sorry for the howler: as I was told, not deceases but diseases ...
                >
                >Niels Peter Lemche

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.